Who do you think will be the first main book character to figure out Jon's parents?

[The Promised Prince]

Why is the Night's Watch categorized as evil? Bit rich considering some of what the Kingsguard's done lately.

What I really wanted to point out was the colors not the sides they represent, ser. Just wanted to point out the striking difference of Jaime from Jon.

[Eyron]

Always enjoy seeing people call Apple Martini, ser :D

The Promised Prince, it's was interesting that you wrote Good and Evil, since it's strikes at the heart of an interesting issue that I think GRRM is always relating to. GRRM only uses greyscales, as per himself, and he finds the conflict within the human heart the most fascinating subject to write about.

The brotherhoods (both kingsguard and Night's Watch) require that the vowee disconnects from all personal preference, and always obey their commander as well as follow the letters of the oath they swore.

Like in a military organization, following command is essential to the function.

On the other hand, command can become corrupted, and itself be contradicting the sworn oath. It is necessary for the brothers (like soldiers) to keep evaluating how their commanded actions relates to their oath, and if the oath actually provides relevant guidelines in all situations. That's why the possibility of relief of command is a necessary tool.

In Westeros there are no such possibilities, there are only imprisonment (not always possible or rational) or murder to choose from if you commander is loosing their mind or putting the realm or the people in severe danger.

Jon chose his path, following his moral compass in almost all cases.

Jaime did too as a young knight, but perhaps for less honourable reasons than Jon. The interesting point is to me that Jaime has used the heroic aspect of saving KL from burning to rationalize the action of killing Aerys, to himself. And that he always dreamed of becoming a knight like ser Arthur Dayne as the motivation to joining the kingsguard (which I happen to believe to be the truth). Regardless of this being the true motivation for his actions or not, at the point in time.

That's the similarity (and difference too) I find interesting between Jon and Jaime. A litte OT, sorry about that.

[Lyanna Stark]

Regarding the colours as well, Jon thinks black is his colour, and it was Rhaegar's as well. He was armoured in black, with red details.

The brotherhoods (both kingsguard and Night's Watch) require that the vowee disconnects from all personal preference, and always obey their commander as well as follow the letters of the oath they swore.

Like in a military organization, following command is essential to the function.

But especially with the Kingsguard, it does not really function, since their vow is to protect the King. Jaime expands that to include "protect the King from himself" with Tommen, but that is still a question if that is right. There's also Aerys raping Rhaella he had to stand by and listen to. Who protects the realm from the King, as it were?

We see Jon having a rather similar issue with how the Nights Watch guards the Realm of Men, but from what and why?

The Kingsguard and the Nights Watch as institutions are both problematic in these ways.

[The Promised Prince]

But especially with the Kingsguard, it does not really function, since their vow is to protect the King. Jaime expands that to include "protect the King from himself" with Tommen, but that is still a question if that is right. There's also Aerys raping Rhaella he had to stand by and listen to. Who protects the realm from the King, as it were?

We see Jon having a rather similar issue with how the Nights Watch guards the Realm of Men, but from what and why?

The Kingsguard and the Nights Watch as institutions are both problematic in these ways.

Agreed on this. The KG is corrupt from its leaders, well what would you expect from power hungry men? The NW is corrupt from its members, well what would you expect from recruits out of prison?

Eira:

Should I call her 'my lady'? What I really wanted to say was BLACK and WHITE are totally opposite colors, simple as that.

also lol'd at your avatar.

[Lyanna Stark]

Eira:

Should I call her 'my lady'?

You could always go with "Ser? My lady? Ser?"

[The Promised Prince]

You could always go with "Ser? My lady? Ser?"

Remind me next time we meet, probably in Maidenpool. :laugh:

[Ghost Rider]

I tend to doubt that Benjen Stark ever knew. The only ones I'm confident about are Eddard Stark (dead), Howland Reed, Wyla and Ashara Dayne (?). I also think Meera and Jojen Reed may know.

You mean, Howland Reed told his kids while Ned didn't even tell his brother who was just as much concerned with the whole thing as he was himself? I tend to believe that Benjen knows, because ... how could he not know, even if Ned didn't tell a thing? :D

He loved his sister just as much as Ned did and probably more, since they were closer. Ned had been living in the Vale after all. Plus Benjen seemed a little too affectionate to Jon if he thinks of him as only a bastard of his brother. (could be only deceitful to get him to the NW) And since he cannot be dead (else we would have seen his body by now, right? They found the guys who were with him after all.), there must be some role to play still left for him. It was also him that uttered the ominous words: we talk when I come back, they gave to Ned in the show. :)

I already find it hard to believe that nobody seems to have questioned Jon's origins, though it is probably highly unusual that the mother of a bastard is kept a secret. Ned's argument about the honour of the mother doesn't convince me, because a pregnancy should be hard enough to hide on a noble woman and if she's a commoner, who cares about her honour?

And then he took him to Winterfell, the ancient seat of his house. Ok, Walder Frey also raises his bastards at the Twins :D, but I guess that's because their mothers live there as well. It's just so weird and unfair to Jon to keep that a secret, if Jon's only his bastard. The way Ned silenced all rumours about Ashara (a dead woman, really?) and how upset he was about them: very weird, why would he care so much?

The circumstances of Lyanna's death are suspicious enough. How exactly did she die if not from child birth? What explanation did Ned offer to his brother who was certainly interested... Did he just say a fever? Ah, alright and then he comes back with a child from Dorne of all places! How did he come by a child there? And that Jon was brought from Dorne doesn't seem such a big secret, what with the Ashara/Wylla rumours. Plus he was seen before he left for the Tower of Joy without a child and then he suddenly had one... I wonder where he got that from? :eek:

And while many people just may have trusted Ned's honour enough to believe him, people who know him better may know that Ned doesn't care that much about his honour when his loved ones are in danger. Otoh, his honour obviously didn't prevent him from "fathering a bastard", so I don't know why people would think him capable of fathering a bastard, but not of lying, seems pretty arbitrary to me.

Yes, that stood out to me as well. Iron tones seem like an odd way to describe our favourite emo prince. I am convinced there was more to Rhaegar than we know. I guess because he made people cry with music he needed to have some sort of high pitched voice, but really he just needs to be able to play and sing well.

Yeah like I said, I think the voice could be the give away. Someone hearing Jon speaking without seeing him, realizing they heard that voice before perhaps saying certain words that Rhaegar once used... *flashbacks*... That voice! OMG!

How does an Iron voice sound btw? :) It's hard for me to imagine something with that association that would make Lyanna cry. I would have imagined something softer, warmer, though not high-pitched, less James Blunt :D, more The National. Iron voice sounds definitely commanding and Jon's nothing if not commanding, maybe it's more about the situation and personality, really. Good catch about the voice and it could be similar, why does Jon not sing? :D I wonder whether Ned didn't want his boys to sing though singers are highly regarded in these kind of societies, see Mance. Jon should try it once in a while. Recognizing a voice - I wonder, after so many years, is it believable to recognize a voice?

Jaime was like that, but is he now, as of AFFC/ADWD? I don't think Jaime is that cut and dry anymore. He's in an odd inbetween state symbolised by his gradual "bleeching" and abandoning of the Lannister colours in favour of the white (and grey) of the Kingsguard.

The reason for mentioning the similarities I did was that Jaime once dreamed of becoming a true knight, and from his experience he knows fulfilling an oath is not easy. He has faltered (...) Even if his intentions and motivations never were so pure as Jon's I think he can relate to Jon in a way, from their common experiences, that very few can. They are both leaders, and both were (in the end in Jaime's case) working for peace and avoiding war.

I see you put a lot more trust into Jaime's sincerity and his willingness to change. In his youth he hero-worshipped Arthur Dayne, certainly, but iirc he still joined the KG mainly because he wanted to be close to Cersei. And who doesn't want to be honourable and held in high esteem? He doesn't seem disenchanted with the KG as an institution, though he sees the problems. What if the king is not the paragon of virtue he should be?

As of now he could go either way. I certainly don't think him beyond redemption, I just don't think he's there yet or very close. He didn't even regret that he threw Bran from the Tower, nor his relationship with Cersei that led to death and destruction all around. His loyalty to his family still trumps every single oath he made, imho. His conceptions of honour and oathkeeping are contrasted (unfavorably imho) with Jon's. I shudder to think how a meeting between the two would go, should Jon ever learn what Jaime has done to Bran. He wasn't directly involved in the RW, but Jaime Lannister still gave his regards to Robb there. Jaime was in on the Jeyne Poole ruse as well. Jon certainly (and justifiably) holds the Lannisters responsible for the fate of House Stark ("It's death and destruction I want to bring on House Lannister, not scorn!")

So if Jaime would somehow learn of Jon's origins, do you argue he would switch his allegiance in an attempt to fulfill his oath to king Aerys and the Targaryens? Or would such a development take place after king Tommen is dead and the power of the Lannister largely gone? What valour would it have then? Wouldn't Jaime be a turncloak yet again?

[Sapphire]

Bran has the tools at his disposal to see what went down between Rhaegar and Lyanna and may witness their marriage before a heart tree. However, I don't think he'll piece it all together and come to the conclusion that Jon is the result of their union. It'll be for the benefit of us readers.

I'm fond of the idea that Jon Connington will recognize something of Rhaegar in Jon. He'll be the first person to suspect there's more to Eddard Stark's bastard.

[Scipio Africanus]

I tend to doubt that Benjen Stark ever knew. The only ones I'm confident about are Eddard Stark (dead), Howland Reed, Wyla and Ashara Dayne (?). I also think Meera and Jojen Reed may know.

I think he did know. He was the last direct relative apart from Eddard to know Lyanna. How do you imagine the conversation between Eddard and Benjen went?

Ned: "hey dude 'sup? Oh this baby I'm holding in my hands...eh yeah I knocked up Ashara Dayne in a threesome with Bob Baratheon. Yeah my bad...oh and Lyanna be dead"

Ben: "...dude I knocked up Ashara remember? I told you this like the other day.."

Ned: "oh yeah damn all those highborn bitches seem alike, no this is from eh Wylla, or some fisherman's wive or some shit"

Ben: "Ned for ****'s sake what the hell happened to our sister?"

Ned: "ok here's the deal"

Ok it may not have happened like that but it's very likely Ned told Benjen the truth. Now Benjen probably did some naughty stuff on his own (like his little chat with Jonny back in Winterfell about siring bastards) which might not be considered entirely honourable. He then decides to take the black, both to protect Lyanna's legacy and for his own past transgrations.

For I don't believe Benjen took the black just for the fun of it. And there's a reason why Martin wrote him out of the story so quickly after introducing him.

[SerStinger]

You could always go with "Ser? My lady? Ser?"

It's funny there's no ma'am in Westeros.

[Eyron]

But especially with the Kingsguard, it does not really function, since their vow is to protect the King. Jaime expands that to include "protect the King from himself" with Tommen, but that is still a question if that is right. There's also Aerys raping Rhaella he had to stand by and listen to. Who protects the realm from the King, as it were?

We see Jon having a rather similar issue with how the Nights Watch guards the Realm of Men, but from what and why?

The Kingsguard and the Nights Watch as institutions are both problematic in these ways.

Indeed, Jon has his problems with interpreting what the oath is actually about (Realms of men), what to do with Stannis when he had the power to overtake the Watch. Ended in stabbing of the commander.

Jaime had his problems with trying to fit together the vows of him as knight (defend the weak etc...) and the oath to his king. Ended in stabbing of the commander (Aerys).

Should I call her 'my lady'?

I only know you shouldn't call her dude :uhoh: But, who am I to say?

[kg1982]

Benjen took the Black for atonement; it seems he was around Jon's age when he did so. I also think he likely knew about Jon. I don't think that Ned told him, but I think that he figured it out. Benjen was probably involved with the KOTLT and Rhaegar/ Lyanna's relationship.

[Eyron]

Good catch about the voice and it could be similar, why does Jon not sing? :D I wonder whether Ned didn't want his boys to sing though singers are highly regarded in these kind of societies, see Mance. Jon should try it once in a while. Recognizing a voice - I wonder, after so many years, is it believable to recognize a voice?

I think Jon should pick up an instrument and sing some too. I somehow don't think that will happen... :D

I do think it's possible to recognize a voice from long ago, if you heard it often and really listened to it. A loved one's voice for instance, or a friend's.

As of now he could go either way. I certainly don't think him beyond redemption, I just don't think he's there yet or very close. He didn't even regret that he threw Bran from the Tower, nor his relationship with Cersei that led to death and destruction all around. His loyalty to his family still trumps every single oath he made, imho. His conceptions of honour and oathkeeping are contrasted (unfavorably imho) with Jon's. I shudder to think how a meeting between the two would go, should Jon ever learn what Jaime has done to Bran. He wasn't directly involved in the RW, but Jaime Lannister still gave his regards to Robb there. Jaime was in on the Jeyne Poole ruse as well. Jon certainly (and justifiably) holds the Lannisters responsible for the fate of House Stark ("It's death and destruction I want to bring on House Lannister, not scorn!")

To me it's not so much about Jaime's redemption, and I don't hink he's there yet either. I was more thinking of how they could relate and understand eachothers position, particularly Jaime understanding Jon, not that they will be fast friends! Jaime is tired of war, he tried to solve things with diplomacy instead. He learned a lot from Brienne and from his loss.

I would not forgive him for the past, more like evaluate his current actions without weighing in the past in every step. His attempt to kill Bran is unforgivable, and I can't see him doing anything that could possibly tip the scale back in his favour. Unless he dies for the Starks or Jon, and he chooses this himself.

So if Jaime would somehow learn of Jon's origins, do you argue he would switch his allegiance in an attempt to fulfill his oath to king Aerys and the Targaryens? Or would such a development take place after king Tommen is dead and the power of the Lannister largely gone? What valour would it have then? Wouldn't Jaime be a turncloak yet again?

I don't know, but I think Rhaegars death and that he was not protecting the children, was a huge deal to Jaime. I take this from his dream.

Jaime has seen what his family has done to Westeros, and that Cercei is not fit to rule. I am not sure how he feels about Tommen being king, since he knows he can never be safe, with or without kingsguard.

And I think Jaime feels like he already lost his children, he was never allowed to be their father and they know nothing. How can he tell them?

If he feels that Rhaegar was the rightful king, which is possible, he could switch.

One thing that makes me think it's possible he will join Jon is that I don't think he will be going back to Kings Landing, I think he is done there. For a long while at least.

But I may be completely wrong, he could become a second Tywin for all I know :D

[pitakon]

Ummm no one would care. Jon is dead.

[kg1982]

Jaime and Jon would just be an interesting duo because they're more alike than either realizes, but would still manage to snipe at each other. It's basically Brienne 2.0.

[Sinslash]

I'm scanning this thread and well, I'm a bit confused here. Some people say Jon Snow has better claim to the throne than Daenerys, well if R+L=J were true. But even if Jon were Rhaegar's son, he would still be a bastard son as he was not Elia Martell's, and thus has no claim. Daenerys would then have better claim, if Aegon turns out to be a false Targaryen. Can someone enlighten me?

[998]

Hodor knows.

[kg1982]

Most people who subscribe to R+L think Lyanna and Rhaegar were married. The KG outside the Tower and the fact that some Targs had two wives are the hints.

[The Wolves]

I'm scanning this thread and well, I'm a bit confused here. Some people say Jon Snow has better claim to the throne than Daenerys, well if R+L=J were true. But even if Jon were Rhaegar's son, he would still be a bastard son as he was not Elia Martell's, and thus has no claim. Daenerys would then have better claim, if Aegon turns out to be a false Targaryen. Can someone enlighten me?

The Targaryens are known to have more than one spouse a polygamist marriage. Some think that Rhaegar and Lyanna got married therefore if Jon was their son he wouldn't be a bastard and would have claim to the ugly throne. I kinda agree about Rhaegar and Lyanna marrying cause Lyanna seems like the type who would demand marriage so her child would not be born a bastard.

[Sinslash]

Ah ok. Thanks for the clarification, makes sense.