Booknerd2 Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 I didn't forget Sam. I have a feeling that he may find something out. Maybe some Serendipity Sam...he is looking for something and finds something else. Or someone finds him. He is very good friends with Jon, and I when he met up with Bran and them it always seemed so contrived.Sam had his time as the Slayer and incidentally made a huge discovery. I think his thing with fighting might be over. Sam's greatest strength along with his kindness is his mind, and putting things together and seeing the value of seemingly small details that others might overlook or might not be interested in. And his mind will be useful in regard to helping Jon. They have to reuinite again, right?But then again Sam did beat up that guy in book 5, bar room style, so who knows? LOL? But that might be showing us in a way that he is losing his fear, growth, or that Sam will always be Sam, but he can stand up and fight if he has to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kg1982 Posted July 17, 2012 Author Share Posted July 17, 2012 I just think that Jaime and Jon would be a hilarious duo, especially if Jaime is basically acting as Jon's bodyguard. Please GRRM, please let that pairing happen. Yes, I know it is basically Jaime Brienne the sequel, but still fun for all.The point about Wylla is a good one. I believe that we'll meet her and that she's still in the employ of the Daynes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Booknerd2 Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 I always wished we got more info out of Maester Aemon too. So disappointing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxpey Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 I was thinking that if three of the Kingsguard were at the TOJ and knew Lyanna was pregnant, then the other Kingsguard might know, especially Barristan. But neither he nor Jaime have had a thought in that direction. It's still a puzzlement -- wouldn't half the KG know where the other half had gone, at least? And why? And what would their reaction be to hearing that the great heroes of their order had died in some gods-forsaken place in Dorne?Anyway, I'd say that either Barristan or Jaime might have the information to reach a conclusion, although the fact that they haven't in 16 years doesn't hold out hope.Otherwise, I'd think it would be someone trying to figure out what happened to Lyanna, or perhaps what happened at the ToJ. Interesting that Ned returned to Winterfell with the body of Lyanna and a baby -- and without the body of Lord Dustin. Could Barbry Dustin be able to get a clue?Could someone at House Dayne know? I think that's where Ned found Wylla, Jon's wet nurse. Of course, Wylla, if she's still alive, would know, but she's not part of the story . . .Bran is a given, I think.I can't recall, but isn't it common knowledge in Westeros that Ned and 6 of his supporters defeated 3 members of the KG, including the legendary Ser Arthur Dayne, at the TOJ? Isn't it also common knowledge that Ned found Lyanna in the TOJ? At the very least, he told Robert. As such, we can assume that Cersei knows as well. Since Cersei knows, we can also assume that Jaime knows.You would think Jaime, as a member of the KG, would put 2 and 2 together and be able to figure out that the KG would not have been at the TOJ simply to guard Lyanna. Rather, they would have been there to guard Rhaegar's child with Lyanna, the heir to the iron throne. And who happened to appear with a bastard child right around the time all this occurred? Lyanna's brother, Ned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SerStinger Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 All mentions of Howland Reed is a Chekhov's gun. I'm telling you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kg1982 Posted July 17, 2012 Author Share Posted July 17, 2012 Cersei and Robert don't have a trusting marriage, so I'd doubt he'd tell her. The story would make sense to Robert, who thought they were villains who were holding Lyanna hostage. What is more interesting is what is written inthe White book? Did we ever see Arthur Dayne's passage when Jaime was reading from it in SOS? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonfish Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 I can't recall, but isn't it common knowledge in Westeros that Ned and 6 of his supporters defeated 3 members of the KG, including the legendary Ser Arthur Dayne, at the TOJ? Isn't it also common knowledge that Ned found Lyanna in the TOJ? At the very least, he told Robert. As such, we can assume that Cersei knows as well. Since Cersei knows, we can also assume that Jaime knows.It is common knowledge that Ned fought and killed Ser Arthur Dayne, and presumably the other Kingsguard as well, but we don't know if the rest of Westeros knows where or when the fight occurred. I also don't recall it being said anywhere that it was common knowledge that Lyanna was found at the ToJ.Varys has birds everywhere. That's how *POSSIBLE SPOILER* Jorah was able to inform on Dany, and he was certainly not in KL.1) No spoiler warning needed, everyone on this section of the board has read all the books.2) Your post isn't correcting anything that Lyanna Stark, the poster you're quoting, said. She explicitly states that Varys uses informers outside of King's Landing, which of course includes Ser Jorah. Her point was that relying on informers outside of King's Landing means that Varys is not nearly as omniscient outside of King's Landing as he is in the Red Keep, where he uses children to spy on people through the walls. As such, it is not at all unreasonable that he simply never found an informer at the ToJ, and thus does not know what went down there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John W Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 I think Dany will be the one who figures it out via some kind of vision or dream. That may be her impetus to head back to Westeros. To find Jon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barbandazi Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Call me crazy but here is my theory. I think Stannis knows. I think the letter Ned Stark wrote him about Cersei and Robert's children also contained some information about Jon. I think the Red Herring is that everyone thinks Jon is Azor Ahai. Here are the facts that I use to support my claim:1. Why would Stannis really want to crush the wildling army in the North? Did he really believe it would rally the North? Of course not, he did it to save JonStannis doesn't care about the Targaryens, he fought them, he doesn't want them back.2. Why would Stannis, whose sense of justice in unyielding legimitize a bastard (we saw what he was willing to do to Edric Storm) and release him from hs vows to the Night's Watch by offering him to become lord of Winterfell.Because all Starks are either dead, thought to be dead, or missing (assumed to be dead), so he wants the nearest thing to it: Ned's bastard, to rally the North for him.3. There are countless passages in the books where Jon Snow mentions how surprised he is that Stannis is that patient with his refusal to give him what he wants. Stannis has an unyielding sense of justice and if he knows Jon Snow to be the rightful king, he will not stop until he can put him on the Throne. I know its far-fatched but it is not without basis to believe that he is knows.And that's why he fought to remove Aerys in the first place?. . . Also I believe Varys knows everything He doesn't. He only knows most of what's going on in KL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barbandazi Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 "Rightful" is a complicated concept in Westeros. My point was I think Ned told Stannis who Jon Really is in the letter and that explains Stannis' actions in the North. Stannis never received Ned's letter. He gave it to some guy to take with him on the boat, which was supposed to stop by on Dragonstone while taking Sansa and Arya back to Winterfell. However, Sansa kind of screwed that up by telling Cersei and the guy carrying the letter was killed, and the letter was taken by Cersei which uses it as proof Ned is conspiring with the Robert's brothers, we see this in AGoT. But since Stannis already knew that Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella were Jaime Lannister's bastards, it didn't really matter.Ned had sent the letter because he wanted Stannis to be king and wanted him to bring his full force to KL to prevent the Red Cloaks from staging a violent coup (such as they did) and the letter was about that. Why would he mention anything about Jon Snow in it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikken's Mark Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 1) No spoiler warning needed, everyone on this section of the board has read all the books.2) Your post isn't correcting anything that Lyanna Stark, the poster you're quoting, said. She explicitly states that Varys uses informers outside of King's Landing, which of course includes Ser Jorah. Her point was that relying on informers outside of King's Landing means that Varys is not nearly as omniscient outside of King's Landing as he is in the Red Keep, where he uses children to spy on people through the walls. As such, it is not at all unreasonable that he simply never found an informer at the ToJ, and thus does not know what went down there.1) Sorry, force of habit.2) That's my mistake, I misunderstood what the poster was saying. I should give myself a "No posting past midnight" rule. I've edited my post accordingly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxpey Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 It is common knowledge that Ned fought and killed Ser Arthur Dayne, and presumably the other Kingsguard as well, but we don't know if the rest of Westeros knows where or when the fight occurred. I also don't recall it being said anywhere that it was common knowledge that Lyanna was found at the ToJ.1) No spoiler warning needed, everyone on this section of the board has read all the books.2) Your post isn't correcting anything that Lyanna Stark, the poster you're quoting, said. She explicitly states that Varys uses informers outside of King's Landing, which of course includes Ser Jorah. Her point was that relying on informers outside of King's Landing means that Varys is not nearly as omniscient outside of King's Landing as he is in the Red Keep, where he uses children to spy on people through the walls. As such, it is not at all unreasonable that he simply never found an informer at the ToJ, and thus does not know what went down there.I can't recall specifically that it was common knowledge about Lyanna. However, I believe that Robert was aware where Ned found her, based upon this passage on page 43 of GoT:"I was with her when she died," Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father."I have to assume that Robert asked Ned where he found Lyanna, and that Ned told him. If Robert knew, I simply assumed he would have told other people, including Cersei (just to mess with her head). Although, I guess it's not unreasonable to believe that Ned lied to Robert about the exact location where he found Lyanna so as to not draw a direct connection between the KG and Lyanna. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonfish Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Although, I guess it's not unreasonable to believe that Ned lied to Robert about the exact location where he found Lyanna so as to not draw a direct connection between the KG and Lyanna.Yes, this was going to be my point. Robert knows that Ned was with Lyanna when she died, but we don't know if Ned told Robert precisely where he found her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewingedwolf Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 And that's why he fought to remove Aerys in the first place?There are countless times where it is mentioned that Stannis was conflicted when choosing between his King (Aerys II) and his brother's rebellion. Let's also recall that Stannis never actually fought the Targaryens in Robert's Rebellion, he just held Storm's End against the siege of Mace Tyrell and Paxter Redwine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasha Steelsong Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 What might be interesting is if Bran saw enough for the readers to figure it out, but he himself doesn't figure it out himself.I sort of feel like it might happen that way (assuming it is not just stated outright by one of the people who likely already know). For that reason I think a long-shot might also be Dany, though my money is on Bran for this kind of revalation, since she gets mystical visions of things she doesn't understand or can't place and if it is true she is legitimately connected to Jon via her brother/his father. It would be very easy for her to get a "hint" of Jon that is just a hint to her but means a lot more to the readers. The same holds true for a vision Jon could get himself in a coma state (a bit like Bran's dream in GOT) that only ends up providing him with a boatload of questions but gives answers to the readers.Either way I think it will be a process of things coming to light and being pieced together, not a all-and-done reveal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywater Reed Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/Prophecies/Entry/1796/Bran's already been told by Ned in a dream long before (Book 1), maybe he doesn't believe it yet, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxpey Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Yes, this was going to be my point. Robert knows that Ned was with Lyanna when she died, but we don't know if Ned told Robert precisely where he found her.You know, it would be nice if GRRM gave us answers to some of these questions. Damn you GRRM! :bang: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonfish Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 You know, it would be nice if GRRM gave us answers to some of these questions. Damn you GRRM! :bang:The thing is, if we were told that Ned lied about where he fought the Kingsguard or where he found Lyanna, that'd probably be too blatant a clue for R+L=J. So instead, he just has Ned not mention it at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kg1982 Posted July 17, 2012 Author Share Posted July 17, 2012 I'm thinking the readers are the first to know through a Bran vision. Then another character in the story will actually blurt out the truth after putting two and two together. Finally, Howland Reed will tell Jon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melisandre's Shadow Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Is this assuming that the R in R+L=J is Robert or rhaegar? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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