butterbumps! Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Can someone give me one good reason why Varys knows? Based on actual evidence, not, "Varys seems to know everything, ergo he must know this." No, he's not omnipotent. So tell me, someone who believes this, how Varys knows.Varys was in love with Lily Lyanna the whole time, and all this is a ruse to get everyone, including Dany and Aegon Blackfyre, to wear themselves out fighting so Jon can emerge as tPtwP.That aside, Varys might suspect something, but I don't think he knows as certainty. He comments to Ned about his bastard in the dungeon, and I suppose one could read into it as more than it seems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolene Brown Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 It seems like something he would have mentioned to Catelyn at the parley with Renly, if he had. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter's Knight Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 I'm not sure. I think he did on the show, but not in the book. I think the messenger Ned was going to send was killed with the household before he could leave. That sounds right.Ned's letter, about the Lannister kids? I don't think so, he only mentions Jon Arryn when talking to Renly and Cat about the incest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Pepper Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 I'm not sure. I think he did on the show, but not in the book. I think the messenger Ned was going to send was killed with the household before he could leave. That sounds right.That stupid scene in the show had me searching through all of Davos' chapters to figure out if Stannis had actually received the letter. Sometimes I wish they would include notes on the HBO website of what small details they add. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Ned's letter, about the Lannister kids? I don't think so, he only mentions Jon Arryn when talking to Renly and Cat about the incest.That stupid scene in the show had me searching through all of Davos' chapters to figure out if Stannis had actually received the letter. Sometimes I wish they would include notes on the HBO website of what small details they add.OK, that's what I thought. It's clear on the show that Ned's letter got there (Stannis mentions it in the first episode when drafting the letter), but in the books, the letter doesn't get there. But Stannis already knew, from his sleuthing with Arryn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Booknerd2 Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 A few things:Stannis was more patient with Jon than I have ever seen him with anyone. Varys wants to "serve the realm." He'll want to look for anything that could stand in the way of his plans. I am sure he just looks into everything. Just like I believe that he always probably had LF investigated while they were in KL and even when LF left. He most likely has an idea that is where Sansa is.Anyone think something was put in Lyanna's crypt? Or just bones? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter's Knight Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 A few things:Stannis was more patient with Jon than I have ever seen him with anyone. Varys wants to "serve the realm." He'll want to look for anything that could stand in the way of his plans. I am sure he just looks into everything. Just like I believe that he always probably had LF investigated while they were in KL and even when LF left. He most likely has an idea that is where Sansa is.Anyone think something was put in Lyanna's crypt? Or just bones?What, like a locket? A secret will? A dragon egg? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SerStinger Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 It's Howland Reed. He's the only one who knows and it's the only function he'll serve in the story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Anyone think something was put in Lyanna's crypt? Or just bones?This is a popular theory, that something is in her crypt to prove that Jon is who he is. Also, it's odd for Lyanna to have a tomb at all in a crypt that's usually reserved for kings and lords. It would make sense though if she died a princess and a queen mother.It's Howland Reed. He's the only one who knows and it's the only function he'll serve in the story.Ahhh I don't think he's the only one who knows. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Looking Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 OK, that's what I thought. It's clear on the show that Ned's letter got there (Stannis mentions it in the first episode when drafting the letter), but in the books, the letter doesn't get there. But Stannis already knew, from his sleuthing with Arryn.It was a necessary change because they didn't include the subplot about Stannis and Jon Arryn. I don't think it would have made much difference if the letter had made it in the books because, like you said, he knew. And he knew Jon Arryn was killed for knowing, which is why he was holed up in Dragonstone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolene Brown Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 I think it might have made a mild difference if Stannis knew that Ned viewed him as the rightful heir. It could have changed his interactions with Catelyn, and thereby Robb. I don't know, maybe the die was cast once the Northmen named Robb "King in the North," so that Stannis would view Robb as a usurper, but if Stannis could prove (through the letter) that Ned wanted him to be King, that might have been resolvable and they might have worked together. We'll never know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikken's Mark Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Can someone give me one good reason why Varys knows? Based on actual evidence, not, "Varys seems to know everything, ergo he must know this." No, he's not omnipotent. So tell me, someone who believes this, how Varys knows.Okay, I'm going to level with you, the following is pure speculation. I have no textual support for this.But, we know Varys claims to be a Targaryen loyalist. Let's assume he is telling the truth. He also wants to do what is best for the realm. Several times he claims to serve the realm.Well the Mad King was not good for the realm, but perhaps Rheagar was. Perhaps he developed a semi-friendly relationship with Rheagar and put the idea of taking the thrown from his father in his head. If this is true, he probably had Rheagar watched. One of Varys' little birds saw Rheagar with Lyanna and reported back to Varys.Like I said, PURE speculation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Pepper Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Okay, I'm going to level with you, the following is pure speculation. I have no textual support for this.But, we know Varys claims to be a Targaryen loyalist. Let's assume he is telling the truth. He also wants to do what is best for the realm. Several times he claims to serve the realm.Well the Mad King was not good for the realm, but perhaps Rheagar was. Perhaps he developed a semi-friendly relationship with Rheagar and put the idea of taking the thrown from his father in his head. If this is true, he probably had Rheagar watched. One of Varys' little birds saw Rheagar with Lyanna and reported back to Varys.Like I said, PURE speculation.The biggest issue with Varys' claims that he serves the realm and does it for the children is that he has deliberately instigated or has attempted to instigate several bloody and deadly rebellions. His actions contradict his so-called higher purpose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Promised Prince Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 It's Howland Reed. He's the only one who knows and it's the only function he'll serve in the story.Yes, HR and his reason why he never left his lands since Robert's rebellion would be essential in answering Jon's mystery. Like I said: Dany's curiosity + The Bold's recollection of Robert's war + Howland Reed = Answer Jon's puzzling parentage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Booknerd2 Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 I always thought that whether or not Varys and LF liked someone or not, whether they could be useful or not, even without a reason, they tailed everyone and looked into everything for current plotting and future use. Even maybe looking for things that they could just use for leverage in anything they wanted to accomplish.There was speculation that Rhaegar might have wanted to replace Aerys. Varys had to be watching everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 I always thought that whether or not Varys and LF liked someone or not, whether they could be useful or not, even without a reason, they tailed everyone and looked into everything for current plotting and future use. Even maybe looking for things that they could just use for leverage in anything they wanted to accomplish.There was speculation that Rhaegar might have wanted to replace Aerys. Varys had to be watching everything.Littlefinger wasn't in the capital then.Still no indication that Varys knows anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sand Snake No. 9 Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Anyone think something was put in Lyanna's crypt? Or just bones?I think proof of Jon's parentage and his legitimacy are in Lyanna crypt. Or considering that this is a magical place, perhaps if Jon goes there at the right time, Lyanna will appear and talk to him. Why not? We've already got zombies all over, a nice natural ghost would be a relief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Promised Prince Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Or considering that this is a magical place, perhaps if Jon goes there at the right time, Lyanna will appear and talk to him. Why not? We've already got zombies all over, a nice natural ghost would be a relief.nah, I don't think so, Lyanna appearing in his dreams would be more likely to happen than Jon seeing her ghost in her crypts. Ghosts appear in GRRM's novels as a shade or a spectre not in a "spiritual" sort. e.g. Renly's ghost in Battle of Blackwater Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dacie Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 I've seen it speculated that Lyanna was buried with her Targaryen wedding cloak. While I quite like this idea, I don't know why anyone would ever exhume her tomb in order to find it.Also, I'm in the camp that thinks Varys and Littlefinger do not know. I agree with what Apple Martini said upthread, that Ned who they all viewed as this honorable doofus, has pulled one over on everyone for years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pod The Impaler Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 That stupid scene in the show had me searching through all of Davos' chapters to figure out if Stannis had actually received the letter. Sometimes I wish they would include notes on the HBO website of what small details they add.In the book, it seems Stannis found out either when Jon Arryn did, or from Jon Arryn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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