Who do you think will be the first main book character to figure out Jon's parents?

[kg1982]

Actually when Targs marry outside, the children generally favor their non Targ parent

[Ice Turtle]

I wonder if glass candles show only the present or past too.

[Eyron]

Yes, I think the logistical reasons are important and needs to be taken into consideration. The one person we know how definitely knows is Howland Reed. And he is at Greywater Watch. It is unlikely that he can travel north to the Wall to tell Jon in person, as there is a lot of snow in the north, and two armies at Winterfell. Judging by Stannis' army's ordeal, there won't be a lot of travelling going on in the north for a while. Which leaves south, or that a POV will arrive at Greywater Watch and meet Howland there.

For logistic reasons I was thinking maybe Jon will not remain at the Wall for long, the free folk and the northerners are equipped to travel through the snow (they have skis!) and perhaps they will help him/bring him with them to Winterfell or to somewhere in the mountains where his great grandmother came from?

But I agree, I think it is likely that we will have a POV at Greywater Watch, and that Howland will never move his ass from there during the whole story. I still think it is possible that Howland could show up at Winterfell, but for some reason I think his place, his responsibility in these tímes of war and winter, is to hold the Neck and so he will not go.

Meaning Howland, if he will be brought out, will have to talk to someone else who is nearer to him geographically and still have enough of a clue to add two and two together, I think, since I doubt Howland will come out and go "Yo gyus, Rhaegar's trueborn son is at the Wall, he's called Jon". It would also make it more interesting if it was someone who'd have mixed feelings about knowing this piece of information. Which makes Jon Conn and Jaime the more interesting people to figure it out, but as you say, Jon Conn is just too far away. Hence my bet is on Jaime.

So he will tell someone, but who would he trust? I doubt he would trust to tell Jaime, unless Jaime proves that he is trustworthy. Maybe possible. Perhaps Jojen had a dream about him too, before he went to Winterfell.

I agree Jaime is one of the people I think it would be very interesting to read about when he finds out who Jon is. I really hope GRRM will give us that! There has been a bit of foreshadowing for it has it not? Unless the foreshadowing was for Jaime-FAegon. That would not please me.

Also I hope so much that we will see Alliser Thorne finding this out... :wideeyed: He who fought for the dragons, and lost all for them.

That depends tho since Jon seems to take after Rhaegar's appearance in many ways, but not when it comes to the face. He seems to have the same build, but Lyanna's Stark looks. (There's the interesting comparison between Jon and Robb, where Jon is basically the Rhaegar body type and Robb the Hoster Tully one)

I was thinking that it only has to be one trait, that is so typical for Rhaegar that it tips someone off, his eyes or some other small detail, like his voice. I know I have my mothers voice almost exactly for example.

I was also thinking about the parallell with Brienne meeting Gendry, how familiar he was to her (I know he is a copy of Robert as young and Renly but still). That she found Roberts son who reminded her so of Renly was on my mind when thinking that it should be Jon Connington who discovers (at least for himself) who Jon is.

I tend to think this is not too far fetched. It makes no sense to link up Jaime and Jon Snow via his talk to Cat and have Jaime musing on how Snow is such a white name, and then Jaime dreaming about Rhaegar.

Interesting paralell between Jon and Rhaegar: both wanted to do changes to the way things were run, and both were killed before it was all complete (although unlike daddy dearest, Jon may have a second chance at getting things right). We also have Jaime being told by Rhaegar that when he came back changes would be made.

Yes, this is a nice parallell. And I'm all for second chances! :D

I would put Jaime into this as well, he and Jon both made hard decisions to serve the people, and both were called oathbreakers for it. Jon decided to stop fighting the free folk and let them come south, Jaime decided to kill the Mad King to save the people of Kings Landing from the fires.

Both declined the seat of their House. Both joined a brotherhood for life at a young age. Maybe Jaime can respect Jon much more for this.

Jaime's dream about Rhaegar and the kingsguard in the caves under Casterly Rock will lead up to something. And it should have to do with Rhaegars children, Eddard Stark and his oath as a kingsguard = Jon :)

[RhaenysBee]

I've never heard of this Mendel in ASOIAF :). For all we know the Targaryen hair and eye genes could be stronger then any other, and Jon's look could be just a fluke. In 300 years, the Targaryens had children with other people, outside of their house, and even if sometimes there were children who looked completely different, in the end, the Targaryen look prevailed.

Yes, but GRRM seems to be in for genetics, since that's how Tyrion found out about Aegon and Ned about Joffrey. So it really seems to count. Well anyhow, Jon and Arya are said to look alike and Arya is said to take after Lyanna in looks, so there it is, his Stark look for you.

The first main character to figure out Jon's parentage will be A) Tyrion B ) Arya C) Sam, I think.

[Ghost Rider]

I would put Jaime into this as well, he and Jon both made hard decisions to serve the people, and both were called oathbreakers for it.

I guess I disagree about Jaime's decision, he just doesn't seem the self-conscious type, more the "I do it because I can" type. And there wasn't much danger involved in killing the mad king. But I agree that character interaction between him and Jon would be interesting, less for their similarities, but more for their differences. And Jon could possibly lead to a redemption of Jaime.

Both declined the seat of their House. Both joined a brotherhood for life at a young age. Maybe Jaime can respect Jon much more for this.

Again I think the question why they did that is important and highlights the differences between the two characters. Jaime did it just because he didn't want the responsibility, he didn't want to marry Lysa Tully (and who could blame him for that? :D he just wanted to be with Cersei. Not surprisingly irresponsibility is for me one of Jaime's defining character traits. Jon rejected the seat of his house, because he didn't want to disregard the traditions connected with it, else (in Jaime's situation) I'm reasonably sure he would have taken it and gladly.

Of course a character that is somehow conntected to the Rhaegar-Lyanna story would be my first choice for the reveal. Jaime fits into that (somewhat, I doubt he had that much to do with Rhaegar, but anyway he failed to protect the king and what's worse: the royal children, so to be redempted he must do better next time around), Jon Con as well, but he's with fAegon and I don't think he'll make it. And I want Benjen Stark to return, last living connection to Lyanna! (at least I am convinced he still lives...) Please come back and tell us what you were up to. :)

[kg1982]

Actually, Howland is a connection to Lyanna as well. Howland was probably even a better friend with Lya than with Ned.

[Ice Turtle]

B ) Arya

How? If Feceless men don't have Who is Who - secret Targaryens in their library I can't imagine her running into that information. Besides, Arya is one of the smartest people around but when it comes to identities (Gendry, Elmar's princess, the younger sister mentioned in the Inn) she is as effective as Mel guessing who is AA.

[Scipio Africanus]

Well logically speaking, who still knows the truth about R+L=J and what happened at the ToJ? Howland Reed and very likely Benjen Stark.

Where are they now? Howland's status is unknown but is presumed to be alive and in the Neck. Benjen's status is unknown but presumed dead beyond the Wall.

Which is of the main characters is closest to them? Stan Baratheon, Asha Greyjoy, Theon/Reek is at Winterfell. Bran Stark is beyond the Wall. Mel is at the Wall. Brienne of Tarth and the Kingslayer are heading (I think) towards Riverrun. Rickon Stark is too young to comprehend and is reportedly on Skagos, status unknown. Davos Seaworth was reportedly heading there, status unknown. Sansa and Petyr Baelish are in the Vale.

All in all it's highly unclear to me how any character could not only find out the truth from Howland and/or Benjen, but relay this to Jon. Convincingly. And this is assuming he didn't die during his assassionation attempt. And Assuming Howland and Benjen are alive.

[Jolene Brown]

I was surprised by Jaime's mention of "the iron tones" of Rhaegar's voice. That's not how I imagined our sort of emo harp-playing Rhaegar would speak at all. But it does correspond with how I imagine our very toughened Lord Commander of an organization of rapists and criminals Jon Snow might speak at this point, now that he is 17 or so. However, they are far, far, far apart at the moment, so for Jaime to get to a point where he actually talks to Jon Snow would require a lot of plot and literal movement, neither of which have been GRRM's big priority lately.

[kg1982]

Jon will hear it from Howland. The question is whether someone finds out first. Jaime and Brienne are actually probably close to Greywater Watch. That's how the BWB is able to do their guerilla style attacks.

[Faint]

Well logically speaking, who still knows the truth about R+L=J and what happened at the ToJ? Howland Reed and very likely Benjen Stark.

I tend to doubt that Benjen Stark ever knew. The only ones I'm confident about are Eddard Stark (dead), Howland Reed, Wyla and Ashara Dayne (?). I also think Meera and Jojen Reed may know.

[Ice Turtle]

I was surprised by Jaime's mention of "the iron tones" of Rhaegar's voice. That's not how I imagined our sort of emo harp-playing Rhaegar would speak at all. But it does correspond with how I imagine our very toughened Lord Commander of an organization of rapists and criminals Jon Snow might speak at this point, now that he is 17 or so. However, they are far, far, far apart at the moment, so for Jaime to get to a point where he actually talks to Jon Snow would require a lot of plot and literal movement, neither of which have been GRRM's big priority lately.

I always wondered if Jon's voice resembles Rhaegar's, in real life it happens sometimes in families, but with people that live or lived together and have same accent etc.. so it's hard to tell how much of it is genetically given.

[Lyanna Stark]

I always wondered if Jon's voice resembles Rhaegar's, in real life it happens sometimes in families, but with people that live or lived together and have same accent etc.. so it's hard to tell how much of it is genetically given.

You mean if someone who actually spoke a lot to Rhaegar would encounter Jon, they'd notice? That is an interesting point. Stannis must have talked to Rhaegar tho or at least heard Rhaegar speak, but he seems oblivious.

I was surprised by Jaime's mention of "the iron tones" of Rhaegar's voice. That's not how I imagined our sort of emo harp-playing Rhaegar would speak at all. But it does correspond with how I imagine our very toughened Lord Commander of an organization of rapists and criminals Jon Snow might speak at this point, now that he is 17 or so. However, they are far, far, far apart at the moment, so for Jaime to get to a point where he actually talks to Jon Snow would require a lot of plot and literal movement, neither of which have been GRRM's big priority lately.

Yes, that stood out to me as well. Iron tones seem like an odd way to describe our favourite emo prince. I am convinced there was more to Rhaegar than we know. I guess because he made people cry with music he needed to have some sort of high pitched voice, but really he just needs to be able to play and sing well.

I guess I disagree about Jaime's decision, he just doesn't seem the self-conscious type, more the "I do it because I can" type. And there wasn't much danger involved in killing the mad king. But I agree that character interaction between him and Jon would be interesting, less for their similarities, but more for their differences. And Jon could possibly lead to a redemption of Jaime.

Jaime was like that, but is he now, as of AFFC/ADWD? I don't think Jaime is that cut and dry anymore. He's in an odd inbetween state symbolised by his gradual "bleeching" and abandoning of the Lannister colours in favour of the white (and grey) of the Kingsguard.

[Eyron]

Yeah like I said, I think the voice could be the give away. Someone hearing Jon speaking without seeing him, realizing they heard that voice before perhaps saying certain words that Rhaegar once used... *flashbacks*... That voice! OMG!

Jaime was like that, but is he now, as of AFFC/ADWD? I don't think Jaime is that cut and dry anymore. He's in an odd inbetween state symbolised by his gradual "bleeching" and abandoning of the Lannister colours in favour of the white (and grey) of the Kingsguard.

Precisely.

The reason for mentioning the similarities I did was that Jaime once dreamed of becoming a true knight, and from his experience he knows fulfilling an oath is not easy. He has faltered and lost others' respect, betrayed his vows as a knight, but now found what it means to be a true knight, from Brienne. Even if his intentions and motivations never were so pure as Jon's I think he can relate to Jon in a way, from their common experiences, that very few can. They are both leaders, and both were (in the end in Jaime's case) working for peace and avoiding war.

Also Jaime must have known a little about Rhaegar from those years in the kingsguard, and probably have some stories and information to share with Jon about his father. This would be very interesting reading...

[Yeade]

I actually think Bran and/or Bloodraven can tell Jon of R+L=J as early as the first third of TWOW. It's been widely speculated that Jon may be in a coma following the attempted assassination in ADWD to develop his talents as a skinchanger. Bloodraven's already demonstrated he has the power to contact a person in such a state when he appears in Bran's dreams as the three-eyed crow in AGOT. And Bran's spoken to Jon in what strikes me as a wolf dream influenced by Jon's Targaryen heritage in ACOK through the Stark familial warg bond. I'm halfway convinced Bloodraven's the gnarled hand Jon feels on his shoulder at the end of his Azor Ahai dream, and I can see Jon establishing regular communications with Bran because he desperately needs intelligence on the Others, both historical and real time, which the children of the forest and powerful greenseers can provide.

Now, what purpose could revealing R+L=J so soon serve? For one, I imagine Jon's bound to be in hard denial of his presumed true parentage for a good long while, lol. Knowing, however, gives him a reason to visit the Winterfell crypts, where possible physical proof of R+L=J awaits. I figure Jon returns to Winterfell after the Wall falls in a fighting retreat from the Others that ultimately leads him to the Neck, Greywater Watch, and Howland Reed for the final confirmation of what he's found out twice before. Then it's farther south to the Trident and his inevitable meeting with Dany.

Jaime's likely to reappear in the Vale, IMO, and I've theorized that Barristan may play a role in exposing Varys and Illyrio's Aegriff deception given his history with the Blackfyre line and Golden Company as well as connection to the Pentos subplot introduced in ADWD through the Tattered Prince. By the time Dany's finally ready to head north and fight the war for the dawn, she might've picked up Marwyn (proposed as the maester attending at the Tower of Joy and in the know about the AAR/PTWP prophecy shenanigans), the Daynes, and the Hightowers in addition to clever and observant Tyrion. Along with the dragon test for Valyrian blood, lol, enough pieces of R+L=J would be available to prove the idea to Dany's satisfaction should she be given reason to ask for it, IMO.

Dany's experience with Aegriff, i.e. a second Dance of the Dragons, would make her wary of another man claiming to be her brother Rhaegar's trueborn son. Except I suspect she comes to like, if not love, Jon as Lord Snow, the Stark bastard of Winterfell who's King in the North in all but name. Jon has no interest in the Iron Throne and would thus never tell her of R+L=J even if he's accepted it as truth. I do believe R+L=J will eventually be forced out of Jon in his political negotiations with Dany, though, because he can secure with his lineage both an alliance with her forces against the Others and a postwar recognition of northern independence from the Iron Throne.

[The Mother of The Others]

A conversation between dragonqueen and oldman kingsguard could contain the details of Jon's birth, and if overheard by Arya she might piece together how the baby was Jon.

Also, Jon might get Fingered.

[kg1982]

I think any info revealed with Bran and the weirwood net or Jon and his fever dreams would be for the readers. Neither Bran nor Jon have the other clues needed to piece it together. That's why I'm thinking it is going to be readers first, then characters who knew Rhaegar, and finally Jon.

[The Promised Prince]

A little overlooked bit about Jaime and Jon to think about since almost everybody is considering this duo:

Jaime is Lord Commander of Kingsguard (White), Jon is Lord Commander of Night's Watch (Black). Yin and yang, good and evil, light and darkness. Suspicious choice of colors, no?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

A little overlooked bit about Jaime and Jon to think about since almost everybody is considering this duo:

Jaime is Lord Commander of Kingsguard (White), Jon is Lord Commander of Night's Watch (Black). Yin and yang, good and evil, light and darkness. Suspicious choice of colors, no?

Why is the Night's Watch categorized as evil? Bit rich considering some of what the Kingsguard's done lately.

[Jolene Brown]

Why is the Night's Watch categorized as evil? Bit rich considering some of what the Kingsguard's done lately.

Maybe the poster meant it the other way around!