The lie of misplaced self-righteousness

[David C. Hunter]

There is a lot of self righteousness in the books that can be quite insufferable, but can be extremely revealing.

What I mean is at the end of the day everyone is fueled by one of a few things: Greed, Revenge, Survival, Honor

Claiming to be motivated by something else usually comes across as a lie and for me to say.."This character is so full of shit." Let me explain:

Varys

1.)The false self righteous motivations: He wants to bring peace to the realm. He is fighting for the realm and order. He is fighting to put a 'true' king on the throne, one who loves the common folk, knows what it is like to be hungry and can create dafodil petals from his arse....really?

2.)Reality: Varys has done everything in his power to throw the realm into chaos. It was hinted that he was a big part of the Mad Kings downfall as well. Everyone knows he is deceitful, everyone knows he is a liar, but for some reason when he tells Ned he fights for the realm people believe him? Why? Hell Varys may believe it himself, but the truth is he is just as greedy, distrustful, dishonorable and ruthless as those highlords he condescended to soo often, in fact he is worse. So do not hide behind, 'Im doing it for the realm', he is doing it for himself, period. He has the money, the skill, the influence and he wants to put Aegon on the throne because he 'CAN', there is no other reason, except that he of course will have incredible titles, lands etc. Varys isn't even from Westeros and within a year of him coming to Westeros he was already helping speed up the Mad King's descent. Why would he care about Westeros?

A thief and a smuggler wants to save the realm? Varys is an actor and con artist who has convinced even the readers that he cares about his fellow men...For those who claim he is a Targ loyalist why would he help lead the Mad King to destruction(Who was a Targ), start a rebellion and then put together a twenty year scheme...just to put a Targ back on the throne? That doesn't make sense. .Here's the kicker. Varys shot Kevan Lannister, an honorable man who would have brought the realm a lot of peace, in the chest with a crossbow. Many people have different opinions about this but my question for Varys is...why? I get it, shoot Kevan with a crossbow to put the blame on Tyrion thus furthering Cersei's paranoia. great...um...why did he have to be the one to do it? Because he felt like Kevan needed an explanation...really? Bullshit, he did it to gloat.

He believes that the pieces are in motion for his plan to come to fruition and he thinks he has one so he wants to gloat. There was no other narrative reason for him to be there. I do not believe that was GRRM's way of talking to the reader. 5,000 pages in and he hasn't used that device before. He then proceeds to give a cocky monologue to a dying man about how Aegon is brilliant, how the realm will no peace and how is sorry for just putting an arrow in his chest. He then tells the children to stab him to death...overkill anyone? If the children were going to stab him to death anyway, why shoot a crossbow at him? Im sure the children could have done that too. Varys actually says that the reason he did it was because it was....poetic? Really? This is the quote "I though the crossbow was fitting, You and Tywin shared so much, why not that?" If that isn't a sarcastic line, I don't know what is.

Bottomline, Varys doesn't give two shits about the realmregardless of what he thinks he believes because his actions are all counter to that. He wants what he wants because he is playing the Game of Thrones. He and Illyrio are rich thieves, smugglers and racketeers. Thats all they ever were, thats all they will ever be. Yet they hide behind their self-righteousness

2.) Cersei

1.)The false self righteous motivations: Cersei loves Tommen and her reasonin for treating him badly and preventing him from learning anything that could help him become a good King is to protect him.

2.) The Reality: Cersei is protecting her own power. She doesn't want Tommen to have confidence, be strong or smart because she cannot control him if he is. Cersei didn't even blink when her father died and her love for Jaime goes only so far as she can get him to do something for her. Ya, know sleep with Jaime and then ask him to go kill Arya. She emasculated him throughout the 4th book, but as soon as she gets in trouble she writes him a letter saying she loves him?....right. Cersei cares only about one thing...her power, keeping it and expanding it wherever possible. She wants to be here Dad and have a cock so bad that now she has to make a statement showing how great she is a ruling. If she has it her way Cersei will keep Tommen sheltered so much that he will never rule his Kingdom. She will, which is exactly what she wants. She isn't doing it to protect him from the big bad Loras Tyrell, she is doing it so that she never has to step down as Regent essentially. No one in the series has hid behind her mostly fake love of their children the Queen Cersei

3.) Dany

1.) The false self righteous motivations: She conquered Mereen to free the slaves

2.)The Reality: Dany doesn't give to shits about the people of Mereen...at...all. Its almost laughable listening to her talk to herself about what she thinks she did right and what she thinks she did wrong(nothing). If you do not agree with the customs of a culture it doesn't give you the right to conquer it. Did the Slavers do anything wrong to Dany?

She has burned the three cities to the ground, she has had crucifixions, no plans about food, no plans about what to do about the jobless freed slaves now, she ignores pleas from people who are getting eaten by Drogon, but for some reason she believes she did a right thing...to free the slaves. Dany did it because she was looking at this as a practice run before hitting the big leagues in westeros. Readers wonder why so many characters in Salver's Bay are bland, 1 dimensional and have no personality....its because we are in Dany's head and she doesn't give a shit. Its not rocket science, she has no desire or intention of learning anything. She may have a soft spot for slaves, but she didn't burn down three cities for them, she did it for a practice run and because she knew she could...ya know the whole Fire and Blood lifestyle. All Dany wants to do is conquer Westeros. She has no plans about how to rule, how to get food to the common folk, nothing. She just knows Fire and Blood

To me Littlefinger is one of the most honest players in this game. He lies to every single person he meets, but you never question his motives and nor does he. He is doing it for himself. We admit it, he admits, easy. The tv episode sums it up:

Ross: What is it you want?

Littlefinger: Oh, everything. Everything there is.

There you go. No different then any other player, except he doesn't need some kind of miss america cover story to hide it.

Im sure there are other characters

[The Drunkard]

Can you really call Varys greedy? He doesn't seem to lust after power, food, women (obviously), or much, really. He might like screwing everyone over, but I wouldn't call him a greedy person.

[Elder Sister]

There are characters that act from selfless motives as well...Ned Stark, The Bear, Qhorin Halfhand, Syrio Forel, Brienne, Jon Snow, Ser Barristan...I know there are others, as well.

All of these characters are typified by one or a series of actions that show they have a higher purpose; that they are not motivated by selfish reasons, but are motivated by doing the right, noble thing, often at great personal cost. It's one of the things that propels the story from good to truly great.

There is a lot of greed in the story, but to say that everyone is fueled by it is just not correct IMO.

And I can't even comment on LF's conversation with a character who doesn't exist in the books. Blech.

Having said that, you make some great points about Varys and LF.

[Mulled Wino]

I dont think for a second that Varys believes he's working fr peace in the realm. That's just a front to throw people off.

Cersei's just a power hungry fool that wpuldnt know a good king from a gang leader.

Dany overrates herself more than anyone in the books. I do think that she thinks she cares about the people of Mereen though. She just has no idea what to do and is a horrible decision maker.

[Mulled Wino]

Can you really call Varys greedy? He doesn't seem to lust after power, food, women (obviously), or much, really. He might like screwing everyone over, but I wouldn't call him a greedy person.

Varys was a hustler his whole life. He most certainly lusts after power.

[A bowl of brown]

Doesn't Roz exist in the books? I know she's never physically there, but doesn't Theon mention her (in GoT) by name as a whore outside Winterell? I grant I don't know how the show managed to translate a one line reference to someone to a relatively major part but I think she does actually exist.

[kg1982]

No Ros doesn't exist in the books.. Yes, Varys is not motivated by the realm. One of the most plausible suggestions is that Varys is a Blackfrye and has been playing a long con for twenty years in order to throw the realm into chaos and get his Blackfrye descendants into power. The fake!Aegon! gambit as been going on for 17 years or so.

If Varys was really interested in the realm, then he'd have been on Team Rhaegar from the beginning and helping him with his plan to exile his father to Dragonstone and take over the realm or whatever the hell he planned to do.

[Gandalf the Grey]

It's interesting, but I disagree with a lot of it. A lot of characters seem to show utilitarian interests (like Jaime). I think that Davos and Doran Martell are genuinely well-meaning.

Another character who readily admits to doing things for himself is the Hound. He has no problem admitting to his sadistic acts and such. Even so, that honesty doesn't really make him any less evil than other characters. Sure, some have their heads up their own arses (Dany for instance), yet they are still trying to be good. Realizing that you're doing the wrong thing means you're sane, but it doesn't mean your character is any nicer.

[Arch-MaesterPhilip]

I agree with your assesments of Dany and Varys, David. Littlefinger is kind of like Scarface, he tells the truth, even when he lies.

[pitakon]

No Ros doesn't exist in the books.. Yes, Varys is not motivated by the realm. One of the most plausible suggestions is that Varys is a Blackfrye and has been playing a long con for twenty years in order to throw the realm into chaos and get his Blackfrye descendants into power. The fake!Aegon! gambit as been going on for 17 years or so.

If Varys was really interested in the realm, then he'd have been on Team Rhaegar from the beginning and helping him with his plan to exile his father to Dragonstone and take over the realm or whatever the hell he planned to do.

thats just BS. everyone knows a simple trigger could create madness in targaryens. Aerys was quite sane before duskendale. Selflessness is just BS, Ned Stark was a selfish bastard. The only selfless person in Westeros is Littlefinger.

[Lyanna Stark]

3.) Dany

1.) The false self righteous motivations: She conquered Mereen to free the slaves

2.)The Reality: Dany doesn't give to shits about the people of Mereen...at...all. Its almost laughable listening to her talk to herself about what she thinks she did right and what she thinks she did wrong(nothing). If you do not agree with the customs of a culture it doesn't give you the right to conquer it. Did the Slavers do anything wrong to Dany?

She has burned the three cities to the ground, she

Wait what? You think Dany was wrong to free the slaves and be against slavery?

I just want to make 100% sure that I am reading this correctly.

[Gandalf the Grey]

Wait what? You think Dany was wrong to free the slaves and be against slavery?

I just want to make 100% sure that I am reading this correctly.

Really I think he questioned the motivations.

I actually thought that Dany was trying to do the right thing. Even if she was a bit hypocritical, she was still trying to do what she thought was best for what she saw as her people.

[Lyanna Stark]

Really I think he questioned the motivations.

I actually thought that Dany was trying to do the right thing. Even if she was a bit hypocritical, she was still trying to do what she thought was best for what she saw as her people.

She tells Xaro her motivations in ADWD: she has been sold as a slave herself, she knows it is wrong. Dany may not have the booksmarts or the formal education to explain her motivations logically, but I don't think a lot of people will disagree with her on that it is wrong, plain and simple.

[The Sleeper]

Agreed about Varys and Cersei. Though Dany's premise is hugely problematic, I think her motives are genuine and what she lacks is perspective. I also think you should add Stannis to your list. Not sure about Tywin.

[RedBean]

I don't think Varys actually believes that he's working for the realm. He was probably just lying when he said that. The idea of putting Aegon Blackfyre on the throne is purely led by selfish motivations I think...

I do think Cersei cares for her children, actually. I also think that she loves power and enjoys holding it. She's kidding herself into thinking that she's doing what's best for Tommen when she's actually just subconsciously trying to keep her power as Queen Regent. However, I don't think that she would *intentionally* do what's wrong for Tommen.

Dany was right to free the slaves, in my opinion. Slavery is wrong, and just because the slavers aren't attacking Dany doesn't mean she should just sit by and let others be enslaved. Dany isn't the type of person to just let people do evil things because they aren't done to her. I know her attitude towards Westeros is entitled, but she does want to do what's best for the people of Meereen. And by "people" I don't just mean the highborn lords and ladies, but everyone in the city, including the commoners and former slaves.

[Mulled Wino]

Freeing slaves sounds lovely. Worked great in Astapor

[Arch-MaesterPhilip]

Wait what? You think Dany was wrong to free the slaves and be against slavery?

I just want to make 100% sure that I am reading this correctly.

Dany wound up hurting more people than she saved. In ADWD people sold themselves back into slavery.

[Richard Sutton]

Hi all! One of the things that has kept me connected with GRRM's work in Westeros is that no one gets a free pass. Each of the main characters is damaged goods. None of them has had what would be considered a "normal" childhood. Even Catelyn, although arguably the most loved and nourished character as a child, had they all cut short and turned to shite. Tthink of Varys or Dany. He was brutalized and is trying to compensate through his machinations, for being less than a man. Dany had no childhood. Of course she wants to be a mother, and with her only child, so far, killed at birth, she needs to find new ways. In some ways, that is her prime, motivating drive. Then,there's also the fact that once acheived, since she had no female or family role models at all, she doesn't know what to do next. Self-righteousness is the only expected position for all these poorly used, basket cases to take.

Despite the fancy trappings and architecture, the world of Westeros is a torn, bleeding wreck. The prevailing culture leaves room for only brutality and the quest for endless power. So far, we've seen that as far as the humankind go, it is a useless quest, with nothing waiting at the end. Trust is a foreign concept. Honor is a hollow excuse.

I'm starting to root for the Old ones. The Andals and first men seem to have infected the whole place with a virus of dysfunction. Maybe the Whitewalkers will find a solution once winter comes, or maybe that will be Arya's job! She is fast, remember.

[Arch-MaesterPhilip]

Freeing slaves sounds lovely. Worked great in Astapor

I'd buy that for a dollar!

[TepidHands]

The only selfless person in Westeros is Littlefinger.

Jeyne Poole is unavailable for comment.