Faint Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 ETA: I don't follow. Jon didn't ask anything of Mel. This harebrained scheme was her way of garnering Jon's trust in her, not an active request on Jon's part. Jon merely let it happen.Exactly; he consented to it. Melisandre presented her gift and Jon took it (along with all its associated risks). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 Exactly; he consented to it. Melisandre presented her gift and Jon took it (along with all its associated risks).But something that she offered to him unasked is not the same as him asking her for something directly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
butterbumps! Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 No, I don't think so. He could have easily stopped it. Melisandre herself doesn't want Arya Stark; she's only doing it for Jon.Mel doesn't want Arya for herself, so far as we know. Arya is a bargaining chip for Mel at this point in terms of proving her worth to Jon. But, we also have hints in this chapter that there is something more than retrieval of Arya that Mel has sent Mance to do, as we learn that he goes to Winterfell and not on the path where Alys was riding.She is doing it for Jon, but this does not mean that Jon was exactly asking her to do this. A debt is a debt when you ask for something from someone. If Mel chooses to give Jon Arya, it is not exactly a debt. Jon is not obligated to give her anything for an unasked for "gift." There is no contractual obligation that Jon does anything in return for whatever Mel is doing, since he never asked for it in the first place.He consented in so far as he did not prevent it. Frankly, I sort of think that Jon was cornered. What was he going to do? Shackle Mance on the spot and have to execute him, again? I suppose that I'm not understanding your initial issue, which was why Jon doesn't seek help from Mel in bringing support from the Queen's Men. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faint Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 But something that she offered to him unasked is not the same as him asking her for something directly.How can we honestly absolve Jon of the blame when he knew for a fact this was all going on and he took no steps to stop it? Had Melisandre sent Mance without telling Jon that would have been a different situation.Just work through it now:Mance finds Arya and brings her back to Castle Black. Ramsay finds out and sends a letter to Castle Black demanding her return. What does Jon tell the Night's Watch?"It's not my fault; I didn't come up with the idea. Yeah, I knew about it but, you know, I wanted it to happen, so I didn't stop it." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragnorak Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 @FaintI think the idea is that asking a favor from Mel is like asking a favor from The Mob. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 How can we honestly absolve Jon of the blame when he knew for a fact this was all going on and he took no steps to stop it? Had Melisandre sent Mance without telling Jon that would have been a different situation.Just work through it now:Mance finds Arya and brings her back to Castle Black. Ramsay finds out and sends a letter to Castle Black demanding her return. What does Jon tell the Night's Watch?"It's not my fault; I didn't come up with the idea. Yeah, I knew about it but, you know, I wanted it to happen, so I didn't stop it."I don't understand your point. Jon did not specifically ask Melisandre to get Arya. He is not indebted to her for that in the way he would be if he asked Melisandre to get Arya. Can you not see the difference?I "absolve" Jon for the blame because at that time, as far as he knew, "Arya" was a girl on the (NEUTRAL) road and not in the possession of Ramsay or in Winterfell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faint Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 I suppose that I'm not understanding your initial issue, which was why Jon doesn't seek help from Mel in bringing support from the Queen's Men.Exactly. He's already already consented to receiving the benefits of her doing much more.Moreover, I can't believe you are arguing that Jon would not feel indebted to her if she got his sister back. That, in my view, is simply an illogical expectation.You're telling me that if Mance Rayder actually showed up with Arya Stark at Castle Black, Jon would feel less indebted to Melisandre than had he asked her to influence the Queen's Men to comply with his directives? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
butterbumps! Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 What is the contention exactly? You are saying that Jon is wrong for implicitly consenting to the Arya mission by not stopping it. You say that we should not absolve Jon of blame in this case, because he is wrong to let this happen. YET, you maintain that Jon is wrong for not soliciting Mel's help in bringing the Queen's Men over to his side.It's not a debt unless you specifically ask for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faint Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 I "absolve" Jon for the blame because at that time, as far as he knew, "Arya" was a girl on the (NEUTRAL) road and not in the possession of Ramsay or in Winterfell.So when Ramsay asks for her back, of course he will comply then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 So when Ramsay asks for her back, of course he will comply then?He doesn't have her. How can he comply? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragnorak Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 Moreover, I can't believe you are arguing that Jon would not feel indebted to her if she got his sister back. That, in my view, is simply an illogical expectation.You're telling me that if Mance Rayder actually showed up with Arya Stark at Castle Black, Jon would feel less indebted to Melisandre than had he asked her to influence the Queen's Men to comply with his directives?Jon would feel grateful not indebted. In Mel's case I think this actually matters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faint Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 What is the contention exactly? You are saying that Jon is wrong for implicitly consenting to the Arya mission by not stopping it. You say that we should not absolve Jon of blame in this case, because he is wrong to let this happen. YET, you maintain that Jon is wrong for not soliciting Mel's help in bringing the Queen's Men over to his side.My argument is this: He is already using her; whether he wants to admit this to himself or not. He is already very much liable for the trouble it will cause if this Arya scheme is found out because he did nothing to stop it in its tracks and in fact consented to it. Yet, despite this reality, he has qualms about asking Melisandre to do simple tasks that would help him greatly because he might feel indebted to her, even though she is already trying to saving his sister because he knows she is seeking his favor . . . What part of this is confusing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 Jon would feel grateful not indebted. In Mel's case I think this actually matters.This. It is not a debt if you don't ask for it.If you give me $1 of your own free will, I'm grateful and thankful. But I do not owe you $1 back.If I ask you, "Can you spot me $1 for a soda?" and you give me $1, the implication is that I will at some point pay you the $1 back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 My argument is this: He is already using her; whether he wants to admit this to himself or not. He is already very much liable for the trouble it will cause if this Arya scheme is found out because he did nothing to stop it in its tracks and in fact consented to it. Yet, despite this reality, he has qualms about asking Melisandre to do simple tasks that would help him greatly because he might feel indebted to her, even though she is already trying to saving his sister because he knows she is seeking his favor . . . What part of this is confusing?He is not indebted to Melisandre because he NEVER ASKED HER explicitly to get his sister. What part of this is confusing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faint Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 He doesn't have her. How can he comply?Like I said, follow the whole scheme through. Mance rescues Arya and brings her to Castle Black. The Boltons send word demanding her return. What then?What does Jon tell the Night's Watch? "Um, yeah, we are not returning her and, oh by the way, I knew about all this weeks ago." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faint Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 He is not indebted to Melisandre because he NEVER ASKED HER explicitly to get his sister. What part of this is confusing?Yeah, somebody saves my child from drowning but I don't feel indebted to that person at all, you know, because I didn't ask for it or anything. Come now, think about what you're saying here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 Like I said, follow the whole scheme through. Mance rescues Arya and brings her to Castle Black. The Boltons send word demanding her return. What then?What does Jon tell the Night's Watch? "Um, yeah, we are not returning her and, oh by the way, I knew about all this weeks ago."It depends on where he rescued her from. If they got her from the road, which is neutral territory, Jon would be within his rights to decline.Also, how would the Boltons know where she was? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 Yeah, somebody saves my child from drowning but I don't feel indebted to that person at all, you know, because I didn't ask for it or anything. Come now, think about what you're saying here.You can feel grateful to that person, but you do not owe them anything. If Jon asked Melisandre explicitly to do something for his benefit, then he would owe her.I'm sorry but I truly do not understand the criticism here. Jon doesn't trust the foreign fire-happy sorceress who already has Stannis more or less by the nuts and doesn't want to enter any sort of arrangement whereby he is in hock with the foreign fire-happy sorceress. I can't say that I blame him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faint Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 It depends on where he rescued her from. If they got her from the road, which is neutral territory, Jon would be within his rights to decline.Also, how would the Boltons know where she was?Neutral territory? Are you kidding me? On what grounds can he decline? She's his wife. Are you telling me that's not getting involved in the politics of the realm?If Margaery Tyrell was fleeing King's Landing and made it to Castle Black, would Jon also be well within his right to refuse her return to Tommen Baratheon? Where does the logic of this argument end? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 Neutral territory? Are you kidding me? On what grounds can he decline? She's his wife. Are you telling me that's not getting involved in the politics of the realm?If Margaery Tyrell was fleeing King's Landing and made it to Castle Black, would Jon also be well within his right to refuse her return to Tommen Baratheon? Where does the logic of this argument end?Melisandre saw the vision before they were married. Mance played AT THE WEDDING FEAST, remember? If Arya hadn't yet married Ramsay and was rescued from the road, Jon would be under no legal or moral obligation to give her back.And as I try to remind people who never seem to remember, neutrality goes both goddamn ways. What right does Ramsay have to demand Selyse, Val, Shireen, etc.?ETA: I'm done arguing in circles. I think it's an incredibly weak criticism and I see very valid, logical, obvious reasons for Jon to be skeptical and wary of Melisandre and unwilling to go into her debt. I do not consider Melisandre offering to send Mance after Arya to be a debt BECAUSE IT WAS FREELY GIVEN. That's it, it's just going in circles. Move the hell on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.