Learning to lead III: the search for decisive actions, a re-read project of the Daenerys and Jon chapters from ADWD

[butterbumps!]

<Excellence>

Great analysis. What a beast of a chapter Jon IX is, and I think you hit on so many important points. I'm glad that you brought up the fact that it is the Southroners who seem alien here-- even the colorfully dyed Tycho seems more in tune with things than Selyse's retinue. He isn't even Westerosi, but he holds himself with an air of respect; I assume that as an ambassador of the Bank he comports himself in way that is respectful and amenable to local customs, and I see him as a very cosmopolitan figure.

The presence of the Southroners is interesting in terms of an outside group to juxtapose the Wildlings and NW with. Their introduction at the Wall is rendered highly unsympathetically from Jon's POV: Selyse's tone is nasty under her courtesies, Axell is a downright sexist pig, and the Queens Men are extremely pompous. The Southroners' presence almost seems to unify Wildlings and Nights Watchmen, setting up a new dichotomy- the North v. the South, rather than crows v. free folk. On Wun Wun, I find it delightful that Leathers, a former free folk, chose to teach the giant courtesy-- to kneel before the Queen (I'm sure Jon may have suggested it). It was sad to me that Selyse rebuffed Wun Wun's efforts at appeasement, and swords were raised against him.

[Faint]

I wonder whether Jon made a tactical mistake by not having Melisandre influence the thinking of Selyse and the Queen's Men to his benefit.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Alys runs to a bastard son of Ned Stark in the Nights Watch for protection instead of the King. This scenes implications for the Stark legacy in general and Ned's specifically are tremendous. She is kneeling before Jon, a gesture to a King, after choosing not to go to Stannis who is a King. While kneeling she is clutching a black cloak of the NW and pleads-- In your father’s name, I beg you. Protect me. This is the Great Northern Conspiracy in one neat package.

This was a great way to end your post and I think it's probably the most powerful point in it. It also comports with what GRRM apparently said in the Q&A floating around. Not just anybody can hold and unite the North. It has to be a Stark. The respect and esteem in which Alys holds Jon is pretty much the culmination of probably generations of at-least decent, probably often-superior governance. While I think that Ned was a demonstrably quality lord, I can't believe that this kind of loyalty only exists because of him. It seems systemic. And, I'm sorry, but I see no good evidence of this kind of devotion in any of the other great houses.

I have said before that when the Starks reunite, they'll be able to exert their will in such a way that I'd hate to be the one to cross them. Bran's pulling supernatural strings, Jon is the de facto leader of both his siblings and the wildlings and maybe the Watch still, Rickon is the legitimate prodigal son around whom the bannermen can rally, Sansa is learning political skills from the master and Arya can do the dirty work. It's almost like putting each of the five Starks together in a puzzle to see how they fit.

I wonder whether Jon made a tactical mistake by not having Melisandre influence the thinking of Selyse and the Queen's Men to his benefit.

Could you elaborate? Are you referring to the wildling integration?

[Faint]

Could you elaborate? Are you referring to the wildling integration?

Just in general. To make them more compliant with his directives (for example, to keep their hands off Val). Selyse will listen to anything Melisandre says, and the Queen's Men will listen to anything Selyse says. It would have been one whole element less to worry about and it wouldn't have cost Jon anything. Melisandre is so desperate to please him at this point.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Just in general. To make them more compliant with his directives (for example, to keep their hands off Val). Selyse will listen to anything Melisandre says, and the Queen's Men will listen to anything Selyse says. It would have been one whole element less to worry about and it wouldn't have cost Jon anything. Melisandre is so desperate to please him at this point.

I think that makes sense, but on the other hand, I think he's actively trying to make sure that he's not indebted to her in any way.

[Faint]

I think that makes sense, but on the other hand, I think he's actively trying to make sure that he's not indebted to her in any way.

He is but why? Because of his pride? Does he expect Melisandre to order him to do something? She could do that now and it wouldn't change anything.

[Tagganaro]

@ Butterbumps & Ragnorak- Fantastic insight as usual.

I thought this was a bit of a weird chapter to be honest. It basically is centered around different interactions with 5 new guests at the Wall. We are already well acquainted with most of them, which I think is there to show that it's not just Jon's biased opinions in many cases, but these Southron Knights really are "bloody fools" and Selyse is the biggest of them.

Selyse- As was mentioned by BB, there's a lot of condescension and haughtiness here. She and her retinue "descend" on Castle Black, she "looks down" at Jon, she "swept past the men of the Night's Watch with never a second glance." Which is interesting when juxtaposed with Wun Wun the Giant kneeling down to her but still towering over her. I wonder what the message is here lol?

Anyway, I think we know enough about Selyse to know that Jon's not wrong in his analysis of her. She's a bit of a joke (I'll always be fond of Stannis's put down "We're not a night fire woman. Stop prattling at me" paraphrasing but still awesome).

I really appreciated the scene with Selyse and Wun Wun and the Southron Knights. It really drives home what rotten ice Jon is on- Jon may see Wun Wun as human type creature who is perfectly capable and deserving of hospitality (and in turn we do as well), but certain people like Selyse and Bowen Marsh and co. will always see him as a monster no different than the Others (see Ser Patrek's remark comparing him to the Others).

Shireen- Just wanted to say she's really cute. I always feel so bad for her. Her best friend is essentially the creepiest character in the series (Patchface), and her parents are Selyse and Stannis. Not to mention the Greyscale. She really didn't luck out in the genetic lottery department, but she still seems sweet nonetheless. A lot like Tommen and Myrcella honestly. I really adored her blushing at Jon talking to her and then being in wonderment of Wun Wun (before Patchface screws it up lol).

Axell- He's another person we've been introduced to already. We know what he is- a cruel lickspittle who is actually pretty incompetent as well (man, GRRM is not fond of the Florents huh?). When you meet both Davos and Jon and rub them both the wrong way, it's safe to say you're a total tool. I love how Jon stands up for Val here in her absence and gets pissed about Axell talking about her like she's a horse. It's safe to assume that this is another instance of Jon walking on rotten ice- Jon seems convinced that Axell knows he has let Val go, so here again we have another instance where Jon is just going to piss these people off (and again, I have to note, why should Jon be concerned about what these people think? They're idiots who Stannis left behind for good reason, and they probably have no power at the Wall. )

I love how this conversation ends, with Jon just losing his patience and telling Axell "enough", and then saying the "Queen would never presume upon our hospitality". Umm, hello Jon, Selyse is exactly the type of person to presume upon your hospitality. And Jon knows that lol. That was his thought just a few moments earlier when he met her.

Tycho- Ok, I'm gonna say something that is very heretical. Tycho Nestoris is almost as awesome as Mance Rayder. I said almost lol, not quite. But yeah, this guy is awesome. 3 reasons why Tycho is awesome:

"We do not jape of dragons"

No, we don't Tycho, no we don't.

"We who serve the Iron Bank face death full as often as you who serve the Iron Throne."

Awesome

Finally, dude is like 6'6" with a 3-tiered purple felt hat. That is awesome my friends. Not quite as awesome as Mance, but up there.

Alys Karstark- I loved this. Alys was a pretty fantastic character for the short amount of time she was introduced and the lack of any ridiculously awesome features (like Tycho). Here's hoping we haven't seen the last of her.

I loved Ragnoraks observation about Jon being so much more comfortable interacting with Alys. This is driven home by his aside thought about Ser Patrek

Another bloody southron fool

North and South= very different

North and 6'6" dude in triple-tiered felt hat= not that different

North and 14 foot Giant who doesn't speak word of common tongue= right at home

This is why I love the North.

Anyway, I found this to be another example driving home the point that Jon, and by extension the NW, whatever they do, cannot fully stay neutral. Here we have a girl (currently the heir to Karhold while her brother in captivity is the Lord of Karhold) running away from her douchebag uncle who plans to impregnate her and kill her. What's a man like Jon Snow to do? He can't stay neutral here. He can release Alys to get raped and murdered and support douchebag creepy uncle Cregan, or he can help the pretty young girl in distress and imprison the douchebag creepy uncle in an ice cell to have him freeze and throw shit at people. I'm going with the latter option every freaking time. Anyway, on a serious note, this is what I'm talking about when I say neutrality is stupid in such a case. Jon and the NW have 2 choices here- They can support Cregan who in turn is supporting Arnolf who in turn is supporting Roose Bolton. Or they can support Alys who in turn will support whoever Jon wants her to support. Why is this even a question? The first group of people don't give a shit about the Wall and will never help Jon, even if in this case he supports Cregan and allows him to rape and murder his niece. The second person Alys is impressionable and will be grateful to Jon and by extension the NW in return for his help. Not to mention it is unquestionably the "right" thing to do not only on a moral ethical level but a traditional level (the sister inherits before the uncle).

[sunworshipper]

Just in general. To make them more compliant with his directives (for example, to keep their hands off Val). Selyse will listen to anything Melisandre says, and the Queen's Men will listen to anything Selyse says. It would have been one whole element less to worry about and it wouldn't have cost Jon anything. Melisandre is so desperate to please him at this point.

What I wondered was why Melisandre never influenced the queen's men favorably towards Jon. They always taunted and insulted him, not just these dregs that Stannis left with Selyse but Godry and Suggs and the like. Why when Stannis treated him with respect and Melisandra courted him did their most fanatical followers loathe Jon. Jealousy? And why did Melisandre never try to correct this? Jon couldn't do anything about it.

[Faint]

I'm pretty sure had Jon asked Melisandre to do it, she would have. He never did. Too much pride.

[Ragnorak]

I have a hard time believing that Alys Karstark of all people would be in the know even presuming there is such a conspiracy.

I didn't mean to imply she had any knowledge, I don't think she does beyond what she actually says. It was the symbolism I was refering to, noting what made "fake Arya" recognizable, running to a Stark after a Stark beheaded her father, choosing Jon over Stannis, kneeling, clutching the cloak, etc.

@butterbumps!

Such a dense chapter. I thought the Wun Wun thing was one of the most striking anti-Southron moments. Kneeling defines everything the Free Folk hate about south of the Wall and Leathers taught Wun Wun to kneel and say Queen. There is not a more grateful or respectful gesture these Wildlings could make-- and these pricks want to do a Walder Frey imitation. That doesn't even touch on Axell. I think the anti-southron thing intentionally and successfully builds the emotional mood for Alys and her Stark plea.

@Apple

The Stark thing is brilliantly done. There is all this angst from the first book over Ned and his honor and why didn't he do X to not die. Then the parallels and hints slowly build through all the children, Bran with the Liddle in the cave stands out especially, followed by Wildlings with Bael the Bard and even them respecting the name Stark, until finally after Manderly you think it doesn't get more hardcore and you get Alys.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

He is but why? Because of his pride? Does he expect Melisandre to order him to do something? She could do that now and it wouldn't change anything.

Probably because he thinks she's dangerous and he doesn't trust her?

[ARYa_Nym]

If anything, those dreams suggest that Dany and Jon will be opponents, not allies. Dany dreams that she's fighting an army armored in ice, and Jon dreams that he's fighting while armored in ice. Seems to shoot to hell any idea that they'll be on the same side.

Yeah sticking a few dragon eggs on a pyre and getting schooled in paranoia in the House of the Undying really qualify her for that sort of thing.

I don't think so because Jon wasn't armored in just ice but black ice which sounds like obsidian a.k.a. frozen fire.

In his dream he was also asking for the flame and his crow brothers were burning and being sent down the Wall again. His foes were coming up the Wall like spiders which sounds like the Others.

That night he dreamt of the wildings howling from the woods, advancing to the moan of the warhorns and the roll of drums. Boom DOOM boom DOOM boom DOOM came the sound, a thousand hearts with a single beat. Some had spears and some had bows and some had axes. Others rode on chariots made of bone, drawn by teams of dogs as big as ponies. Gaints lumbered amongst them, forty feet tall, with mauls the size of oak trees.

"Stand fast," Jon snow called. "Throw them back." He stood atop the Wall, aline. "Flame," he cried, "feed them flame," but there was no one to pay heed.

They are all gone. They have abandoned me.

Burning shafts hissed upward, trailing tongues of fire. Scarecrow brothers tumbled down, black cloaks ablaze. "Snow," an eagle cried, as foeman scuttled up the ice like spiders. Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist. As dead men reached the top of the Wall he sent them down to die again. He slew a greybread and a breadless boy, a gaint, a gaunt of a man with filed teeth, a girl with thick red hair. Too late he recognized Ygitte. She was gone as quick as she'd appeared.

The World dissolved into red mist. Jon stabbed and slashed and cut. He hacked down Dona Noye and gutted Deaf Dick Follard. Qhorin Halfhand stumbled to his knees, trying in vain to staunch the flow of blood from his neck. "I am the Lord of Winterfell," Jon screamed. It was Rob before him now, his hair wet with melting snow. Longclaw took his head off. Then gnarled hand seized Jon roughly by the shoulder. He whirled...

This sounds like the Others came and most people were turned into wights which could be why Jon felt that they have all gone and abandoned him when he asked for fire.

[Faint]

Probably because he thinks she's dangerous and he doesn't trust her?

He can still not trust her but make use of her. What people tend to forget is that he has already trusted her enough to allow for the crazy scheme of having Mance Rayder of all people rescue Arya Stark. Compared to that, having Melisande make the Queen's Men more compliant is positively mundane.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

He can still not trust her but make use of her. What people tend to forget is that he has already trusted her enough to allow for the crazy scheme of having Mance Rayder of all people rescue Arya Stark. Compared to that, having Melisande make the Queen's Men more compliant is positively mundane.

I think he only OK'd that because he thought it might get him Arya back. I stand by what I said — he does not want to be indebted to her. And I don't think it has anything to do with "pride."

[Ragnorak]

North and South= very different

North and 6'6" dude in triple-tiered felt hat= not that different

North and 14 foot Giant who doesn't speak word of common tongue= right at home

This is why I love the North.

Priceless. I'm still laughing.

[butterbumps!]

Ok, First, Tagg, I don't know what it is about your reviews, but they are hilarious. I like Tycho too; I have a blind spot for Braavos, truth be told. I appreciate your self control in not taking the full heretical plunge regarding Mance.

I'm pretty sure had Jon asked Melisandre to do it, she would have. He never did. Too much pride.

I think that Apple has the right of this. Jon does not want to be indebted, or shift the power dynamic whereby he cedes any power to her. When Jon thinks about what to do with "Arya" (before he knows it's Alys), he thinks about whether he must turn her over to Stannis, or his proxy, Melisandre. On Mel, he thinks, "The gods alone knew what use the red woman might want to make of her." He clearly does not trust her, as she has been extremely cryptic about her endgame; I think this is highly reasonable on Jon's part. There is no telling what kind of trouble he might find himself in if he asks for her help with anything. (from Jon's perspective, I mean).

I realize that it's a mundane request, but will Mel really not ask for something larger or unexpected in return? I also think that it would undermine his position of authority to request such a thing.

[Faint]

I think he only OK'd that because he thought it might get him Arya back. I stand by what I said — he does not want to be indebted to her.

And he wouldn't be for getting Arya back? I don't quite follow the logic of that.

Also, for the sake of argument, let's say he does get Arya back. What now? What if somebody at Castle Black finds out and the news gets back to Winterfell, followed by the Boltons declaring war on the Night's Watch if they don't give Arya back?

[Faint]

I think that Apple has the right of this. Jon does not want to be indebted, or shift the power dynamic whereby he cedes any power to her.

I'll ask again:

What could possibly in debt Jon more to Melisandre than rescuing his sister for him?

[butterbumps!]

But the Arya mission was not something that Jon asked for- it was going to be done with or without his consent.

ETA: I don't follow. Jon didn't ask anything of Mel. This harebrained scheme was her way of garnering Jon's trust in her, not an active request on Jon's part. Jon merely let it happen.

[Faint]

But the Arya mission was not something that Jon asked for- it was going to be done with or without his consent.

No, I don't think so. He could have easily stopped it. Melisandre herself doesn't want Arya Stark; she's only doing it for Jon.