Learning to lead III: the search for decisive actions, a re-read project of the Daenerys and Jon chapters from ADWD

[PatrickStormborn]

Theory: part of Dany's despondency is caused by her dragons' feelings at being locked up seeping into her.

This is actually a point I was going to make. Brilliant Dany-loving minds think a-like, clearly. ;) For me, the fact that Dany and Drogon "screamed as one" is interesting because of the implications it has on her relationship with her other two dragons. Presumably she can also feel their pain at being locked up, and I imagine that her own anger with herself is a reflection of the dragons' anger with her. We don't have much of a timeline to work with, with regards to where Dany's last chapter stands against Barristan and Quentyn's chapters, but is it possible that her epiphanic moment coincides with the release of Viserion and Rhaegal from their chains?

[Winter's Knight]

This is actually a point I was going to make. Brilliant Dany-loving minds think a-like, clearly. ;) For me, the fact that Dany and Drogon "screamed as one" is interesting because of the implications it has on her relationship with her other two dragons. Presumably she can also feel their pain at being locked up, and I imagine that her own anger with herself is a reflection of the dragons' anger with her. We don't have much of a timeline to work with, with regards to where Dany's last chapter stands against Barristan and Quentyn's chapters, but is it possible that her epiphanic moment coincides with the release of Viserion and Rhaegal from their chains?

Supposing that the dragon having three heads refers to one person controlling the three dragons, what's the text that says that each dragon must have a separate rider? Because I haven't slept n two days and can't for the life of me remember it.

[PatrickStormborn]

Supposing that the dragon having three heads refers to one person controlling the three dragons, what's the text that says that each dragon must have a separate rider? Because I haven't slept n two days and can't for the life of me remember it.

I don't have the exact quote, but I think it's when Dany takes Quentyn to see the dragons. She says that no rider ever had two dragons; Aegon the Conqueror, for example, did not dare ride Meraxes. So I imagine that bonding to one dragon means you are unable to bond to another. And I think the problem with one person controlling three dragons is that they are only useful when fully grown if they can be ridden. I imagine, however, that Dany will lead the other two heads into battle eventually, seeing as she has the biggest, fiercest dragon.

[Maia]

Yes, a cathartic chapter and the first Dany ADwD chapter that I liked after the one where she went to help Astapori refuges and then closed the gates.

But... yes, her very relateable revulsion towards how the things turned out and growing realization that she wasn't going to accept it, but still no even half-formed plan of action? No analysis on her part whatsoever? I liked Dany's empathy and bravery, sure, but her lack of reflection does call up shades of Cersei, alas. Dany finally accepting her fiery, dragon side felt very promising, though, particularly since on the first read I didn't expect her to fly away from Meeren and stay away, but to do something about the siege ASAP.

But again, I strongly feel that this and many criticisms already mentioned by other posters are at least in part the result of Martin's stated unwillingness to invent depth for Meeren, so I cling to hope that Dany will start to become more introspective and thoughtful once she finds herself interacting with culture(s) that the author is more interested in...

Yes, it does parallel Jon, where he stops even trying to convince his disapproving officers. Interestingly enough, Dany is being taken away here, while Jon will want to leave the Wall, but will be (brutally) prevented from doing so.

So, 2 murder attempts in these 2 storylines, one as a culmination of ongoing efforts to get Dany to leave, which either goes astray or she is taken away before it can be completed. And of course, Dany going away at this stage doesn't solve her opponents problems - the changes instituted by her, while not sufficient by any measure, are already too deep for that.

The other sparked by Jon's attempt to leave - though probably a culmination of the negative reactions from traditional faction of NW to drastic changes he makes - and seemingly effective at stopping him, but not to completely reverse his work ditto. Hm...

Barristan finally does something awesome, by trying to distract Drogon, IIRC, but we always knew that he was physically brave. Still, nice to see it.

Oh, and how incompetent are those Meerenese that they didn't even manage to make a proper poison? I know that Belwas is bigger and much heavier than Dany, but who could expect her to eat the whole bowl of locusts? Surely one or 2 should have been made to suffice. Now, I did always think that there were a bit too many different reliably lethal poisons in ASOIAF - it was a much more chancy business in most of the world iRL, well into the 20-ieth century, IIRC.

But given that they do exist and that Belwas survives, it makes one think - would the Green Grace make such a mistake? Or was the poison meant to disable, not kill?

Also, there was that odd state of preparedness among Hizdahr's men for Drogon showing up - what's the deal with that?

Re: "screamed as one" - I always maintained that the dragonlords are/were a specialized type of skin-changer, that have changed themselves by magic to be able to bond with dragons _and_ to fairly reliably inherit that trait (which, according to Varamyr, regular skinchangers rarely manage to do).

Hence also the incestuous sibling marriages - we have now seen that having uncontrolled dragons in a civilized environment would quickly become a big problem, so I imagine that once a rider died, their dragon had to be transferred to another family member ASAP and if only women were available and/or women were the only ones with sufficiently strong ability to pull it off, they got their chance to bond with a dragon, but logically couldn't leave the family afterwards. Sibling incest thus served to retain the dragons in family's posession and to keep the dragon-bonding ability strong in future generations.

Dany's interaction with Drogon parallels early relationship of Stark children with their direwolves, with wolves reflecting their emotions, particularly strong ones and protecting them, etc. Dany is just very much behind the curve, because she got the dragons almost a year later than Stark kids got the wolves, canines are easier to skinchange into, she was distracted from training Drogon by outside pressure and she was unwilling to commit to Drogon and abandon the others (since it is an exclusive relationship, with dragons), which was necessary to complete the bond and has now finally happened.

A bit OT, but I also think that the huge black tomcat in the Red Keep is Rhaenys's kitten Balerion and that he is her "second life".

[Lummel]

I think one or two locusts would have sufficed to kill Daenerys and maybe three or four Strong Belwas but the bowl full acted as an overdoes and he vomited the lot back up.

Likewise I think it is possible that Daenerys just is not a structured clear thinker and I doubt that she will change particularly, and really so far she has got by without having to think anything through. There can be a benefit to being in a backwards disadvantaged position in that it forces you to maximise what ever limited resources you can find and squeeze them until the pips squeak. Daenerys is rather in the opposite position, her status as Targaryen heir and possessor of three dragons has meant that she has rather taken her eventual success for granted as something which with a moderate degree of application and effort will fall into her lap. But the lesson of Meereen is the same as that of Kings Landing - good intentions and some skill aren't enough. Merit alone doesn't win the game of throne for you - an understanding of the levers of power and the motivations of the people around you might.

Quite how Daenerys will develop in future is, I feel, an open question even after her last chapter.

I love the contrast drawn out above between the enclosed managed space of the pyramids and the public arena of the fighting pits with status and family on open display. And again the physical isolation of Daenerys from her city and the people she would represent is telling when she is travelling everywhere by litter is telling. I think though that Margaery's behaviour to win public affection is something she has learnt. Presumably this is part of the Tyrell family style. I doubt she's some political genius who has dreamt it up in her own head. This still something that Daenerys can learn if she can find the right mentors.

[HopeForSpring]

Daenerys is rather in the opposite position, her status as Targaryen heir and possessor of three dragons has meant that she has rather taken her eventual success for granted as something which with a moderate degree of application and effort will fall into her lap.

I'm not sure she takes her success for granted really, or she keep repeating that to herself as a mantra so she can persevere in very rough circumstances. Kind of like a athlete telling themself "I'm a winner, I'm a winner, I'm a winner" before a race.

As much as Dany is supposed to beware of the Lion, I wonder if it isn't Tyrion who will teach her about mental self discipline.

I agree the jury is out if she will be able to pull of becoming an Athena, Godess of War and Wisdom, or if the Three Headed Dragon really is just the Furies.

I really want to believe she has it in her to temper her temper, but I can also see how her becoming an agent of chaos could move the story.

[Maia]

But the lesson of Meereen is the same as that of Kings Landing - good intentions and some skill aren't enough. Merit alone doesn't win the game of throne for you - an understanding of the levers of power and the motivations of the people around you might.

Indeed, but that's the problem I have with Dany's storyline in ADwD - that I personally don't see much of a development towards said understanding in her character and that this lack uncomfortably (for me, as a Dany fan) parallels Cersei.

Sure, it is probably at least in part necessary to set up Tyrion's role vis-à-vis Dany, but I still don't like it. In fact, it seems like a regression from ASoS, where she did seem to have decent instincts in that direction and seemed to be in the process of transiting them into rudimentary skills.

Again, it is not the sequence of events or lack of overall success that bugs me - it is what's going on or rather not going on in Dany's mind.

In fact, I am one of the few people (AFAIK) who think that Dany's politics of appeasement, up until the point where she didn't participate in peace negotiations and just wanted to abandon the reins of power to Hizdahr, was a pretty decent course in a very difficult situation and actually gained more for her freedmen than it did for Yunkai and Meerense elites.

I can only agree that observing all the people assembled in the arena could have given Dany some valuable clues re: interactions of Meerenese, freedmen, mercenaries, structure of society, etc.... Sigh.

I have to say that before ADwD, I didn't actually mind Dany not going to Westeros ASAP - I liked the exotic places and dreamlike quality of her storyline.

But now I do, because we spent a whole book in Meeren, without the place coming alive or at least being superficially interesting and exotic in the way Dothraki and Quarth were for me. And even the Slaver's Bay, back in ASoS, where it seemed like another pit stop.

Braavos and Volantis, while seen more briefly, appeared more alive and having more substance to me, surprisingly. Or maybe not. Maybe GRRM has created more background for the Free Cities and it comes through.

[HopeForSpring]

I think Dany had a really noble ambition - End. Slavery.

That is a more ambitious and more compassionate task than anyone else has set for themselves. Jon comes close with wanting to avoid slaughtering the Wildings, but even he is operating in what is essentially his home turf with an eye towards just living through the Winter. Mostly everybody else is operating on the "How do I stay alive and get what I want?" level but her. I don't think she is more foolish in a day to day way than anyone else, but she set herself the hardest, least personally convenient task.

I think a lot of us, me included, look at that and say "well that was stupid she should have known that wouldn't work." But really, how should she have? She never took AP History. And to paraphrase Shaw, change only comes from behavior of the unreasonable.

So while, maybe I wouldn't have done what she did... maybe I'm just to reasonable for greatness...

[Arya Targaryen]

Mostly everybody else is operating on the "How do I stay alive and get what I want?" level but her.

While agree with what you say about Dany, I sort of doubt that "how do I stay alive" is Jon's main purpose at this point. Quite a lot of his choices might result in him losing his head, and he knows it. And not "get what I want" but "doing what is needed to be done, while trying to ignore what I want".

[Tagganaro]

I think Dany had a really noble ambition - End. Slavery.

That is a more ambitious and more compassionate task than anyone else has set for themselves. Jon comes close with wanting to avoid slaughtering the Wildings, but even he is operating in what is essentially his home turf with an eye towards just living through the Winter. Mostly everybody else is operating on the "How do I stay alive and get what I want?" level but her. I don't think she is more foolish in a day to day way than anyone else, but she set herself the hardest, least personally convenient task.

I think a lot of us, me included, look at that and say "well that was stupid she should have known that wouldn't work." But really, how should she have? She never took AP History. And to paraphrase Shaw, change only comes from behavior of the unreasonable.

So while, maybe I wouldn't have done what she did... maybe I'm just to reasonable for greatness...

It's not that she doesn't have noble goals or that she doesn't realize the consequences of her actions, it's the lack of any coherent "plan" that strikes me as most frustrating throughout her chapters. I agree that she has a noble ambition which shouldn't be overlooked, but I have a problem with the way she is written for most of ADWD. She seems to spend the majority of her time patting herself on the back for having that noble ambition, with very little in the way of a concrete plan or actualized actions to bring about that plan. I liked the small amount of time spent going into her desire to plant some olive trees and open up trade again, but that tends to be few and far between compared to her either patting herself on the back, mooning over Daario, or her identity crisis.

In short, I think Dany's character was not done justice so far in ADWD. I blame GRRM more than anyone to be honest. Some of it just seems like lazy writing although others may disagree.

Indeed, but that's the problem I have with Dany's storyline in ADwD - that I personally don't see much of a development towards said understanding in her character and that this lack uncomfortably (for me, as a Dany fan) parallels Cersei.

Sure, it is probably at least in part necessary to set up Tyrion's role vis-à-vis Dany, but I still don't like it. In fact, it seems like a regression from ASoS, where she did seem to have decent instincts in that direction and seemed to be in the process of transiting them into rudimentary skills.

Again, it is not the sequence of events or lack of overall success that bugs me - it is what's going on or rather not going on in Dany's mind.

In fact, I am one of the few people (AFAIK) who think that Dany's politics of appeasement, up until the point where she didn't participate in peace negotiations and just wanted to abandon the reins of power to Hizdahr, was a pretty decent course in a very difficult situation and actually gained more for her freedmen than it did for Yunkai and Meerense elites.

I can only agree that observing all the people assembled in the arena could have given Dany some valuable clues re: interactions of Meerenese, freedmen, mercenaries, structure of society, etc.... Sigh.

I have to say that before ADwD, I didn't actually mind Dany not going to Westeros ASAP - I liked the exotic places and dreamlike quality of her storyline.

But now I do, because we spent a whole book in Meeren, without the place coming alive or at least being superficially interesting and exotic in the way Dothraki and Quarth were for me. And even the Slaver's Bay, back in ASoS, where it seemed like another pit stop.

Braavos and Volantis, while seen more briefly, appeared more alive and having more substance to me, surprisingly. Or maybe not. Maybe GRRM has created more background for the Free Cities and it comes through.

I couldn't agree more with all this. Her character in ADWD seems to me to be a regression from what she was in ASOS. Granted, I think that's part of the point- GRRM is trying to show Dany being more comfortable in the role of conqueror than Queen or at least trying to say that conquering is easier than actually ruling. Still, I find it a little ingenuine/ridiculous that the girl who knew little of the ways of war, had Drogon flame that slaver right in the face, and who nailed the 163 slavers to posts is all of a sudden trying to question her "Dragon" identity and whether or not it's the right thing to do. THat may just be me though.

I find the "regression" to be frustrating in that it seems to be a means for GRRM to not have Dany go to Westeros, which was fine in earlier books but is getting a little frustrating now. All this is made much worse for me by the fact that George has openly admitted he does not care about Essos (and particularly Slaver's Bay) and that the characters are written in a ridiculous one-dimensional way. To compare and contrast to Jon, even if I disagree with/hate/think Bowen Marsh is idiotic and cowardly, I understand where he's coming from and don't think he's entirely evil. I can't say the same about any single one person in Mereen. And to have these people consistently outsmart/dictate the action to Dany (who as I said above has shown much competence before and willingness to deal with these kinds of people in ASOS), I don't know, I just find that it doesn't do Dany justice at all compared to what we've seen in previous books.

So again, I think I understand what GRRM was trying to do (much like Dany) but I don't really appreciate the way he went about doing it. I wish he gave Mereeneese characters some depth/humor/general human-like behaviors and levels of competence, and I think it would have made Dany's story much more effective.

I don't know though. I guess this is a little off-topic but I agree with all of your post.

[Lyanna Stark]

Theory: part of Dany's despondency is caused by her dragons' feelings at being locked up seeping into her.

Definitely. Having the dragons locked up affects Dany immensely. It's clear to see that she's trying to forget about it, but she can't. Tze brought up Dany's isolation, which is a deadringer for how people with depression often act. They shut themselves off and go into isolation. Voila: Dany. She tries escapism with Daario, but it's only temporary. She is miserable and cries after marrying Hizdahr, but again tries to hide it. I wonder if she grinds her teeth and has an ulcer as well? Her lack of appetite seems to indicate that she's on that path at least. I have been hospitalised for a stress ulcer myself, and Dany shows several of the signs of the "good girl" over achiever trying to do everything without delegating.

Another thing about the dragons being vehicles of destruction, aren't they just on a bigger scale what the direwolves are for the Starks? Without proper training, both types are huge, dangerous beasts. Only with training can their destruction be harnessed and prove useful for their keepers. People are always extremely accepting of the direwolves, but remember the stir they caused on the Kingsroad. I often wonder what on earth Ned was thinking bringing two direwolves with him to Kings Landing. Sure, they were only pups then, but they'd grow.

The dragons were cute as well when they were small, but now they're not small anymore, and just like any huge animal they need training. Especially these ones, as they are extra huge, and extra powerful. In that way, Dany is a reflection of her dragons: she also lacks training.

It's not that she doesn't have noble goals or that she doesn't realize the consequences of her actions, it's the lack of any coherent "plan" that strikes me as most frustrating throughout her chapters. I agree that she has a noble ambition which shouldn't be overlooked, but I have a problem with the way she is written for most of ADWD. She seems to spend the majority of her time patting herself on the back for having that noble ambition, with very little in the way of a concrete plan or actualized actions to bring about that plan.

Firstly, don't you think it would be unrealistic for Dany to just know how to rule? Her main educator in life has been Viserys. And he is not exactly stellar.

Secondly, I do not get the impression that Dany is patting herself on the back. More like she is desperately trying to convince herself that she needs to rule and that things are going to work, while in fact, she shows more and more signs of depression. Overall she does not seem pleased with her own achievements. Overall, she does not seem happy with the situation, or what she has managed to do with it. Hence I think "patting on the back" is more an expression of reader frustration since we want Dany "to just get better at ruling and get to Westeros" more than it is actually a reflection of what she, the character, thinks.

And depressed people? Are not really good, progressive decision makers. They are stuck with their problems. The only real "escapist" moments Dany has are with Daario and lastly with Drogon. Strangely, even though she is sick, hungry and alone in the Dothraki sea, she is far more concerned with just living and being herself and suddenly Meereen seems small in comparison. Dany could not transform herself into something she is not: she could not by pure willpower transform herself into a Meereneese Queen.

I mean sure, we can argue that she should not be depressed and she should be more competent and should be more aware of the Game, but clearly GRRM has chosen Dany to fail here, perhaps to humble her, perhaps to make her realise she needs advisers, or better delegation, or something else.

This lack of education, lack of perspective and lack of knowledge often seem as a reason for people to take her as "evil" or "walking down an evil path", but contrasting her with characters like Jaime and Tyrion who often know that what they are doing is really bad, Dany doesn't know, or doesn't understand, or cannot comprehend why what she does is bad or wrong. She lacks some of the larger perspective that she needs.

In fact, despite her Fire & Blood antics, she is often far softer and more empathic than even Tyrion.

This doesn't absolve her, but it does add mitigating circumstances for her actions. For instance when she judges that the woman who left her house should lose it. Had someone bothered to lay down the comparison with her own situation for her, she would very likely have grasped it, yet nobody did, since nobody like that was around. I actually quite like that Dany's powers are limited. She doesn't have super intellect, she doesn't have superpowers of understanding how things work. The fact that Dany is limited makes her more interesting. It makes her more realistic.

[Winterfellian]

Sorry, double post

[liberal teapot]

Dany's powers are limited.

I think it's more than that, it's more that the monarch has very limited powers. I wonder if this is to cast light more on Aerys' rule, and their fallibility. This is why I think the propecy of trust no one isn't a misdirection. if she trusts them, they will use her for their own aims, like varys and littlefinger have done.

on Dany's religion, i don't think it is co-incidental that there is a fire god out there. really it seems to telegraphed to not be purposeful.

[The Snowman]

Definitely. Having the dragons locked up affects Dany immensely. It's clear to see that she's trying to forget about it, but she can't. Tze brought up Dany's isolation, which is a deadringer for how people with depression often act. They shut themselves off and go into isolation. Voila: Dany. She tries escapism with Daario, but it's only temporary. She is miserable and cries after marrying Hizdahr, but again tries to hide it. I wonder if she grinds her teeth and has an ulcer as well? Her lack of appetite seems to indicate that she's on that path at least. I have been hospitalised for a stress ulcer myself, and Dany shows several of the signs of the "good girl" over achiever trying to do everything without delegating.

Another thing about the dragons being vehicles of destruction, aren't they just on a bigger scale what the direwolves are for the Starks? Without proper training, both types are huge, dangerous beasts. Only with training can their destruction be harnessed and prove useful for their keepers. People are always extremely accepting of the direwolves, but remember the stir they caused on the Kingsroad. I often wonder what on earth Ned was thinking bringing two direwolves with him to Kings Landing. Sure, they were only pups then, but they'd grow.

The dragons were cute as well when they were small, but now they're not small anymore, and just like any huge animal they need training. Especially these ones, as they are extra huge, and extra powerful. In that way, Dany is a reflection of her dragons: she also lacks training.

Firstly, don't you think it would be unrealistic for Dany to just know how to rule? Her main educator in life has been Viserys. And he is not exactly stellar.

Secondly, I do not get the impression that Dany is patting herself on the back. More like she is desperately trying to convince herself that she needs to rule and that things are going to work, while in fact, she shows more and more signs of depression. Overall she does not seem pleased with her own achievements. Overall, she does not seem happy with the situation, or what she has managed to do with it. Hence I think "patting on the back" is more an expression of reader frustration since we want Dany "to just get better at ruling and get to Westeros" more than it is actually a reflection of what she, the character, thinks.

And depressed people? Are not really good, progressive decision makers. They are stuck with their problems. The only real "escapist" moments Dany has are with Daario and lastly with Drogon. Strangely, even though she is sick, hungry and alone in the Dothraki sea, she is far more concerned with just living and being herself and suddenly Meereen seems small in comparison. Dany could not transform herself into something she is not: she could not by pure willpower transform herself into a Meereneese Queen.

I mean sure, we can argue that she should not be depressed and she should be more competent and should be more aware of the Game, but clearly GRRM has chosen Dany to fail here, perhaps to humble her, perhaps to make her realise she needs advisers, or better delegation, or something else.

This lack of education, lack of perspective and lack of knowledge often seem as a reason for people to take her as "evil" or "walking down an evil path", but contrasting her with characters like Jaime and Tyrion who often know that what they are doing is really bad, Dany doesn't know, or doesn't understand, or cannot comprehend why what she does is bad or wrong. She lacks some of the larger perspective that she needs.

In fact, despite her Fire & Blood antics, she is often far softer and more empathic than even Tyrion.

This doesn't absolve her, but it does add mitigating circumstances for her actions. For instance when she judges that the woman who left her house should lose it. Had someone bothered to lay down the comparison with her own situation for her, she would very likely have grasped it, yet nobody did, since nobody like that was around. I actually quite like that Dany's powers are limited. She doesn't have super intellect, she doesn't have superpowers of understanding how things work. The fact that Dany is limited makes her more interesting. It makes her more realistic.

Interesting correlation between the Direwolves and Dragons as just savage beasts who can reap some severe damage to anyone. But with training they become almost soft and very likeable.

I seriously believe that a lot of Dany's problems come from the fact that she has no one to bounce off in the way that Tyrion does. Also her sense of entitlement has always annoyed and I don't expect that to change. I think that once she possibly gets back to Mereen with Drogon and meets Tyrion/Jorah and then hopefully Barristan she will be able to connect better with characters the fandom can relate to and seemingly like more than Dany. Jon Snow has had Stannis to banter with for a little while and that for me has been some of the most enjoyable scenes and I think once Dany gets this sort of thing going, she will become a better leader and more likeable to the asoiaf world.

She will need to know how to tread lightly if Aegon sits upon the Iron Throne when she arrives and is the champion of the people. If she just goes all 'fire and blood, im the blood of the dragon, the iron throne is mine' and decides to attack Aegon she could very quickly lose and potential allies in Westeros.

[Winterfellian]

Another thing about the dragons being vehicles of destruction, aren't they just on a bigger scale what the direwolves are for the Starks? Without proper training, both types are huge, dangerous beasts. Only with training can their destruction be harnessed and prove useful for their keepers. People are always extremely accepting of the direwolves, but remember the stir they caused on the Kingsroad. I often wonder what on earth Ned was thinking bringing two direwolves with him to Kings Landing. Sure, they were only pups then, but they'd grow.

The dragons were cute as well when they were small, but now they're not small anymore, and just like any huge animal they need training. Especially these ones, as they are extra huge, and extra powerful. In that way, Dany is a reflection of her dragons: she also lacks training.

... And depressed people? Are not really good, progressive decision makers. They are stuck with their problems. The only real "escapist" moments Dany has are with Daario and lastly with Drogon. Strangely, even though she is sick, hungry and alone in the Dothraki sea, she is far more concerned with just living and being herself and suddenly Meereen seems small in comparison. Dany could not transform herself into something she is not: she could not by pure willpower transform herself into a Meereneese Queen.

About the fisrt part of your post I think it is easier to accept the direwolves because like you said yourself the scale of destruction a dragon can bring upon a civilization is beyond anything a direwolf can achieve. Could Ghost, Lady, Summer, etc created the havoc in Astapor that allowed Dany to take control of the unsullied? Or the damage in Mereen 2 of her dragons caused when they escaped? Not likely. You can't compare the mess in the kingsroad (an event on which Joff played a big part) with the terror and destruction Dany's dragons can and have unleashed.

There's also, the fact that the Starks started training their wolves from the start (even the younger ones) while Dany openly and consciously took the decision not to when she locked them in the pyramid. Given the powerful weapons this dragons represent it is far more irresposible to refused to trained a dragon than a direwolf. Of the wolves the only 2 ''feral ones'' belong to children less than 10 years of age with one being separated from her master and the other being with a toddler.

I appreciate the comparison you make between the Starks and their wolves and Dany with her dragons though I wonder if Dany's decision not to trained her dragons and her resemblance to them in needing ''training'' foreshadows her and them as agents of chaos.

About the other bold part, I think it was Lummel who posted the symptons for depressed behavior a while ago. I remember that both Dany and Jon fit the model well enough yet somehow Jon managed to make more progressive decisions than Dany.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I appreciate the comparison you make between the Starks and their wolves and Dany with her dragons though I wonder if Dany's decision not to trained her dragons and her resemblance to them in needing ''training'' foreshadows her and them as agents of chaos.

I think this is an interesting and valid assessment. The Stark children, with the exception of Rickon (who was little more than a toddler, but is still capable of controlling his wolf) were more or less ordered by Ned to take full responsibility for the training and care of their wolves, and they followed through on that. It's not just that the wolves themselves aren't capable of destruction on the scale of Dany's dragons — it's that the Stark kids took proactive roles in their upbringing.

I have to wonder why Dany didn't do more to train her dragons or even attempt to train them. Other than "Dracarys." she seems willing to let them grow feral, and then wonders why she can't control them. And it's not just in Meereen when she has other things on her mind. She had the walk through the Red Waste and the time in Vaes Tolloro. Isn't it telling that the only basic training they ever received was in burning stuff?

And yes they're supernatural creatures and there's not really a good precedent for her to go on. And yet ... what precedent for direwolf training did the Starks ever have? Of course, the Stark kids are all wargs, and will have a mental bond with their wolves that I doubt Dany will ever have with her dragons. But, as you said, that weaker mental bond and their training to only destroy things seems to point to chaos, not order.

[The Snowman]

I saw a Malamute/Huskey the other day that was at least 3/4 the way up my leg (I'm 6ft 2) and would have been close to 1.5m+ in length. The thing was also pretty wide. Biggest dog I'd ever seen just chilling with its owner while I was going for a walk. DIrewolves do exist haha. Not totally sure it was a dog tbh :/

Anyway I think I would drop my shit and run if Nymeria and her pack came and attacked my village or even a town. Also Dany's dragons do seem quite feral and imo that is her fault for not trying a few things (by that I mean training them)

I honestly think that the battle vs the Others may come down to Dany's abiity to lead her people and also more importantly how strong her bond with her dragon is abd the mirror image of Jon leading and then his bond with Ghost is

[Lummel]

Ladies and Gentlemen seeing as we have exceeded 400 posts please join us here in Learning to Lead IV to continue the conversation!

[Rheagar Prime]

Again we hear mention of a feud between Loraq and Kandaq (Dany mentions it when thinking about how Hizdahr replaced the Shavepate with his cousin). Dany doesn't really seem to care why the two families hate each other. This could be a Blackwood/Bracken type of feud or a Stark/Lannister type of feud----or hell, maybe it's a Frey/everybody type of feud! I mean, logically a ruler would interact differently with the feuding parties depending on the various parties' actions instigating and carrying out the feud, but Dany still has no idea what the source of the feud is in the first place. Did Hizdahr rape the Shavepate's sister? Did the Shavepate murder Hizdahr's father? Are the two families feuding because of a fight their ancestors instigated centuries beforehand? The fact that Dany never bothers to even ask why the two men hate each other doesn't fill me with confidence for how she'll deal with the incredibly complex feuding families of Westeros.

Dany berates Brown Ben for his treachery, then asks Barristan if any of the Yunkish sellswords will betray Yunkai to join her. When Barristan says that sellswords are treacherous, Dany lectures him that she wants them to be treacherous, because if they weren't, the Second Sons/Stormcrows wouldn't have joined her in the first place. But . . . treacherous sellswords will betray her just as easily as Yunkai! Did she miss the whole point of Brown Ben's lecture (that sellswords want to survive more than they want gold)? I wonder if that whole conversation went entirely over her head, because if she'd really taken Brown Ben's words to heart, she'd understand that she'd need some sort of "fighting edge" to entice the sellswords to join her (last time she had the dragons, which aren't an option anymore), and that merely offering them money isn't going to work for the same reason Brown Ben switched sides in the first place---the sellswords see Dany as a losing cause. Does she have anything new to challenge that notion? Not that I can see. And Brown Ben flat-out told her that the Second Sons as a whole voted to go over to Yunkai, so why on earth does she act like convincing another sellsword to "remove" Brown Ben from command would have any impact on the Second Sons' choice of employer? I really don't think she understands the whole sellsword issue, and Brown Ben's place in it, at all.

It's interesting to see here the huge discrepancy between what the slaves think Dany will do and what we know Dany has just done. Tyrion is told

Except she just did exactly that. So much is made of the high regard the slaves hold for Dany, but it seems to me that the slaves love some idealized version of a heroine that they simply assume Dany epitomizes---they don't really love Dany. They love the conqueroring heroine who they think is planning on saving them all. But that's never been Dany's plan.

Dany's contempt for Quentyn is palpable throughout this chapter, though I don't think she admits to herself that what she's feeling is contempt. She again thinks to herself about how Quentyn is not a handsome man, she assumes that he's useless because he didn't physically bring her an army or a fleet and isn't cheering on the hellish monsters she brings him to see, she remarks to herself how plainly dressed he is, and when he jumps back upon hearing Rhaegal and Viserion roar, Dany thinks that "A crueler woman might have laughed at that." The very fact that she assumes someone might laugh at Quentyn for jumping back at this hellish display . . . it says far more about Dany than it does about Quentyn. And it's interesting how she warns Quentyn of his enemies at her court, she says Hizdahr is dangerous in large part because he "commands the allegiance of some of the most fearsome fighters in the world." Presumably she's referring to the pit fighters (given that the Unsullied don't follow Hizdahr, they follow Dany----though to be fair, does Dany realize that?) Quentyn is dismissive of "slaves and sellswords", and Dany thinks he's a fool for that---but how did one of the greatest pit fighters alive, Khrazz, end up faring against Ser Barristan, who let's be honest, is a senior citizen? How would Daario have really fared against Quentyn himself? We'll never know, but I wonder.

Dany very casually thinks about how she knows "little and less about Dorne or its history", one more piece of evidence that Dorne will likely play havoc with an attempted conquest of Westeros. Dany has never heard of the Water Gardens, and according to Doran, the lesson of the Water Gardens is that a ruler does not make war unless he/she knows he/she can win, for in war, it's always the children who suffer. What are the implications of the fact that Dany doesn't know about the Water Gardens? She attacked Meereen in part because of what was done to the crucified children, but how many innocent children died during the sack of Meereen? How many will die if Dany seeks the Iron Throne?

And the fact that she has to ask Quentyn "Tell me of this other Daenerys" heavily implies that she doesn't know the history of her namesake. The whole reason the first Daenerys married a Dornish Prince was because the Young Dragon couldn't hold Dorne---that Dorne is essentially unconquerable. Does Dany know that? I think there's an excellent chance she doesn't.

One of the interesting things that popped out here was the difference between Dany's understanding of Nymeria's landing and Arianne Martell's understanding of Nymeria's landing. Dany recites the story as this:

Arianne, however, added some crucial details back in AFFC:

Arianne tells Myrcella why Nymeria burned her ships: not because the Dornish were once a seagoing people and suddenly wanted to stop that way of life, but because Dorne was such a difficult place to live, and its preexisting customs/religion so different from what the Rhoynar knew, that Nymeria had to ensure that her people knew they could not leave and try for greener pastures (or try to return to the Rhoyne). Dany does not seem to understand this idea---she's constantly doing the exact opposite of this, as she tells people that she's definitely leaving Meereen one day (she told both Quentyn and Hizdahr this) and even when she considers the idea of never leaving Meereen, she still never stops calling herself the Queen of Westeros. There's a difference between "looking back" (which Dany refuses to do, and the Rhoynar did do) and "going back" (which Dany wants to do, and Nymeria expressly did not want to do). Meereen's ways are as different to Dany as Dorne's ways must have been to Nymeria, but Nymeria forged a compromise and made a new home for her people. Dany, deep down, does not want to do this---she rails against integration with Meereenese society and she clearly begrudges every step she's forced to take. And then there's the fact that some of the Rhoynar kept their old customs, rebuilt the ships (after a fashion) and did their best to re-capture their old way of life on the Rhoyne. Dany never mentions (and probably doesn't know about) the orphans of the Greenblood---she repeats her "If I look back, I am lost" mantra where the Rhoynar clearly looked back (at the Rhoyne) and still managed to integrate that Rhoynish past into their future on the Greenblood.

Interesting that Dany thinks of Dorne only as having "sandy shores" while Arianne specifically points out Dorne as a "dry red land". Does Dany even realize the Dorne is covered in deserts?

Yes, how did this happen?? We can infer that in addition to Yurkhaz, Dany's dining with the Little Pigeon and the Drunken Conqueror. We know from Tyrion's POV and Quentyn's POV that the non-sellsword Yunkish forces are quite literally a joke. What, did Daario never mention seeing the slaves on stilts during one of his "sorties"? It all seems to come back to the "know your enemy" idea; where Jon does his best to learn about his enemies (the wildlings and the Others), Dany clearly took no steps to learn about the true martial capacities of Yunkai.

wow i want to cry and make a copy of this to show my hardcore dany fan gf. Hell she could have even looked at her ancestor that she loves to announce she comes from aegon I to know how to conquer and know your enemies and stop saying i have dragons.