Learning to lead III: the search for decisive actions, a re-read project of the Daenerys and Jon chapters from ADWD

[Lummel]

Leaping back to Jon IX I rather like the parallel of Alys Karstark with the rider on the pale mare in Dany V. In both cases we have a fleeing refugee but while in Dany V this signals the collapse of Daenerys' settlement in Astapor here Alys brings about the downfall of part of the Bolton's northern settlement by bringing word of Uncle Karstark's planned betrayal of Stannis. Both riders precipitate change. The Grey Mare rider and Alys both remind Daenerys and Jon of their duties, though these are their duties as a leader and of family respectively. Of course Melisandre has primed Jon to be thinking about Arya but looking at this in context and how these feelings about his family are being brought up in Jon it makes his later decision less surprising - and notice that throwaway line about Axell Florant standing by while his brother was burnt to death. Jon of course back in AGOT was persuaded to stand by while his brother went off to war and to let him meet his fate alone.

Speaking of Melisandre interesting that she gave Jon advance warning of the Queens arrival. If Tze is correct, and it certainly seems a reasonable suggestion that Jon's men were blocking her access to him, she seems now to have over come that.

I'm glad that Jon has misgivings about taking on the debt. I think I share his concern at how the Watch will ever be able to grow enough turnips to be able to pay back the Iron Bank - possibly though these shared misgivings come from having a mortgage...

Up until this point Jon has no solution to the second of his basic problems (ie how to feed his people through the Winter, with the first and very much interrelated problem being his need for more people to man and women the Wall). Money in theory allows him to buy in food although you do have to wonder where exactly he is going to buy the food in from...although I do believe grapes, olives and possibly in the near future beans might be available from Meereen ;).

From a leadership point of view though this is Jon taking advantage of events coming along. He took on more people without the means to feed them in the hope that something would come up, which effectively is what he is still doing. The gold doesn't guarentee a food supply through winter - it simply makes it possible (assuming the loan agreement gets back to Braavos). Given the season perhaps this was the best he could do? Daenerys' attempt to reach out to neighbours and to start up cultivation is in contrast a more wide ranging policy although it doesn't get to bare much fruit.

[lojzelote]

Personal feelings aside, I still think that Jon's duty, once Mance was unveiled, was to call for Edd to fetch him a block. He's LC of the Night's Watch, isn't he? Mance Rayder is a Night's Watch deserter. I don't remember anybody to adress this issue. Or did the rule change? I must have missed it. :dunno:

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Leaping back to Jon IX I rather like the parallel of Alys Karstark with the rider on the pale mare in Dany V. In both cases we have a fleeing refugee but while in Dany V this signals the collapse of Daenerys' settlement in Astapor here Alys brings about the downfall of part of the Bolton's northern settlement by bringing word of Uncle Karstark's planned betrayal of Stannis. Both riders precipitate change. The Grey Mare rider and Alys both remind Daenerys and Jon of their duties, though these are their duties as a leader and of family respectively.

It's been so many pages ago I can't remember who wrote it, but I liked ... someone's ... contrasting of the steps Dany and Jon take when the pale riders show up. This is when Jon becomes more proactive on his own, riding out himself to meet Cregan, arranging the marriage between Alys and the Magnar, etc. On the flip side, this is when Dany resigns herself to the fact that she can't hold Meereen without marrying Hizdahr.

[Lummel]

Fair point Lojzelote, it certainly should be his duty at the very least to hand him over to Stannis for execution - interesting that already he is breaking the law (or possibly tradition) of Westeros in favour of having somebody to hand who can be used to attempt (allegedly) to assist his 'sister' to reach the Wall.

[Julian Rayne]

Fair point Lojzelote, it certainly should be his duty at the very least to hand him over to Stannis for execution - interesting that already he is breaking the law (or possibly tradition) of Westeros in favour of having somebody to hand who can be used to attempt (allegedly) to assist his 'sister' to reach the Wall.

Jon argued for Mance's life long before Arya entered his calculations. He genuinely believed that sparing Mance was in the best interests of the Watch and their mission.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Jon argued for Mance's life long before Arya entered his calculations. He genuinely believed that sparing Mance was in the best interests of the Watch and their mission.

Yes. I think it was a letter of the law vs. spirit of the law sort of thing.

[Lummel]

It's been so many pages ago I can't remember who wrote it, but I liked ... someone's ... contrasting of the steps Dany and Jon take when the pale riders show up. This is when Jon becomes more proactive on his own, riding out himself to meet Cregan, arranging the marriage between Alys and the Magnar, etc. On the flip side, this is when Dany resigns herself to the fact that she can't hold Meereen without marrying Hizdahr.

Well it changes the strategic situation doesn't it? Stannis and by extention Jon gain an advantage and we can see Jon being more confedient because of that, particularly as he realises in a future chapter how he can solve lots of problems with one Alys Karstark while for Daenerys it's a blow to her confedience as she invented the Astapor settlement and of a sudden Yunkai, New Ghis and all the rest are free to concentrate their forces against her.

Jon argued for Mance's life long before Arya entered his calculations. He genuinely believed that sparing Mance was in the best interests of the Watch and their mission.

But then this is Jon playing fast and loose with law and custom - he is within his rights (presumably) to argue his case for Mance's life but it would be Stannis' (or Tommen's or Roose's as warden of the North) decision to make. As far as we know Stannis is in on that decision - Melisandre, Mance and Jon all conspire here.

[lojzelote]

Jon argued for Mance's life long before Arya entered his calculations. He genuinely believed that sparing Mance was in the best interests of the Watch and their mission.

Well, he obviously lost the argument. (See the burning.)

Also, I think it is a law. It was established in 2nd chapter of AGoT. Ned kills a guy who is almost incoherent and half-mad from fear.

[kg1982]

Oops.. I thought that we were talking about Stan, not Mance.

I agree with those who say that Jon not executing Mance is in the spirit of the law. Mance knows things about the Others; he's useful in the war. Even Stannis admits that. However, Jon erred by sending Mance after his sister rather than keeping him on the Wall as an advisor. Here's a guy who led the Wildlings, who dealt with the Others, and who is a great self-made leader. That's all very useful to Jon. Even if he couldn't send Mance to treat with Tormubd publicly, he could sure use his private advice.

BTW, Mel is an even bigger moron than Jon with this. She should have known that Mance is a more valuable asset on the Wall. However, I think that we can all agree that Mel is dense.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I wonder what guest right plays into the situation. Stannis is under guest rights with the Night's Watch. I'm assuming that handing him over to the Lannisters for execution would violate guest right and that handing his wife and child over as hostages definitely would.

I think there's something to this. The big reason Jon rode out to meet Cregan was to prevent him from getting to the Wall and invoking guest right.

[Faint]

Jon is very willing to interpret the law to suit his needs whenever he thinks it's warranted. In his mind, so long as it's for the good of the watch (as he sees it), it doesn't matter if he is literally breaking his oaths. This might all derive from Qhorin Halfhand, actually.

[Julian Rayne]

But then this is Jon playing fast and loose with law and custom - he is within his rights (presumably) to argue his case for Mance's life but it would be Stannis' (or Tommen's or Roose's as warden of the North) decision to make. As far as we know Stannis is in on that decision - Melisandre, Mance and Jon all conspire here.

It doesn't matter. His ultimate loyalty is to defend the realms of men. If he thinks that keeping Mance alive will help defend the realms of men then that's what his oath compells him to do.

Anyway that's all incidental to the point I was making. Which was that it wasn't his sister that motivated him.

Jon is very willing to interpret the law to suit his needs whenever he thinks it's warranted. In his mind, so long as it's for the good of the watch (as he sees it), it doesn't matter if he is literally breaking his oaths. This might all derive from Qhorin Halfhand, actually.

Which is exactly what he should do as Lord Commander.

[tze]

Queen Selyse descended upon Castle Black with her daughter and her daughter’s fool, her serving girls and lady companions, and a retinue of knights, sworn swords, and men-at-arms fifty strong. Queen’s men all, Jon Snow knew. They may attend Selyse, but it is Melisandre they serve.

I think this right here encapsulates the heart of why Jon, very rightly, refuses to go down the path of being indebted to Melisandre. Look at what Melisandre has done to Selyse: even among her own ostensible followers, Selyse is Queen only in name, as the "meat" of her position has been usurped by Melisandre, and everyone (except Selyse) knows it. Melisandre didn't even bother to come meet Selyse when she arrived at Castle Black (and she clearly knew Selyse was coming), instead choosing to basically have Selyse come to her, rather like what Melisandre keeps having to do with Jon. Jon knows very, very well that Melisandre has no intention of serving solely as a source of counsel; she wants power, and Jon need only look at what's happened to Selyse's status to see how Melisandre goes about getting that power.

It's interesting how . . . dismissive? contemptuous? Jon is of Selyse's need for a large retinue (and assumption that powerful people must have such retinues), especially given Melisandre's unthinking assumption in her POV that the retinue she keeps around herself "sends a certain message". Selyse has surrounded herself with the "traditional" trappings of power, but Jon sees through them immediately and recognizes that those trappings don't actually grant Selyse any real power, not even in men's minds. (I exempt Axell Florent from this category given that he doesn't actually seem to have a brain.) It's yet another way Mel has failed in her manipulations at the Wall.

I consider it an absolute crime that we never got to see Selyse's interactions with Cotter Pyke, let alone got to read Pyke's letters about Selyse. (I imagine those letters always began and ended with the phrase "That fucking bitch." ) It seems pretty clear from Selyse's description of Pyke that Pyke pissed Selyse off by refusing to cede power to her, which casts her actions at Castle Black in an interesting light. She pretty immediately tries to pull rank on Jon, and Jon is having none of it. Jon already has a pretty clear (and negative) image of Selyse before he even met her, and in this and future chapters, Selyse does everything possible to feed that image while doing absolutely nothing to refute it.

That idea of "reputation" is a pretty powerful one, and I think "reputation" also plays a strong role in Tycho Nestoris's interactions with Jon. What kind of reputation does Jon have in Braavos? Theoretically he should have no reputation there at all, given that the Wall isn't exactly a great bastion of civilization, but we know he in fact does have a reputation there, as Arya hears people talking about him in multiple places at the Ragman's Harbor, people who at one point call Jon "The Black Bastard of the Wall". (It's interesting how that Arya chapter comes immediately after this Jon chapter, which does seem to highlight the Jon/Braavos reputation issue.) What exactly are people saying about Jon outside the Wall? Granted, Tycho made the point that he would have come from the Purple Harbor, not the Ragman's Harbor, but the fact that Jon apparently has a seemingly fearsome reputation outside of the Wall (and among people with no discernable reason to care about the Wall or even the Starks) could say a great deal. I wonder if people talk about Jon at the Purple Harbor, and if so, what do they say? Could Tycho have had some preconceived image of Jon before even meeting him, and might that have played a role in the nature and tenor of their negotiations? It's interesting that Ghost is apparently not present during Jon's meeting(s) here. so Tycho isn't negotiating with Jon as a giant direwolf looks on. It's also interesting that Tycho was present when Selyse's retinue spotted Wun Wun, a genuine giant. The symbol of Braavos is a Titan. I'd love to have seen how Tycho internally viewed the casual way Jon interacted with a giant. (Not to mention, Tycho's apparently been hanging out with Selyse for a little while now, so seeing the way this teenager very firmly refused to be bullied by someone like Selyse probably raised Jon in Tycho's estimation.)

I found Jon's internal reasoning about seeking a loan from the Iron Bank to be rather illuminating. He's well aware that the Watch will likely default on such a loan, especially if the winter is long and hard. He expressly knows the Iron Bank's modus operandi---it doesn't attempt to destroy the institution that defaults, it simply goes after (kills) the leader who defaults. That Jon expressly knows these things, and went ahead and took out a loan anyway, makes it very much sound as if Jon is basically using his own life as collateral here, and accepts the fact that if the Watch defaults, he's going to end up killed. It's not the first time that Jon has intended on using his own life to buy safety for the realm, and it certainly fits with the whole "corn king" idea.

Clearly there's something going on from the Braavosi perspective that we're not privy to, given that the Tycho has to realize the Watch won't be able to repay such a huge loan. Killing Jon and backing a new Lord Commander won't actually change anything; first, because we've seen how the Watch reacts poorly when outside influences try to influence the selection of the Lord Commander, and second, because this is an issue of the Watch being unable, not unwilling, to repay a future debt, so "replacing" the Lord Commander if the Watch defaults on this loan would be akin to Dany's desire to get someone to replace Brown Ben Plumm; changing the person in charge doesn't actually change the situation on the ground at all because the person in charge isn't dictating the practicalities of that situation. It's possible that the North and Braavos have some preexisting history that Braavos remembers but the North (ironically) has forgotten, and the Iron Bank will be much more "flexible" with the Watch due to an unknown debt owed by Braavos to the North. (There's been speculation elsewhere that perhaps followers of the Old Gods played a role in Braavos's founding or with the Faceless Men in general, given the rather strange association between the FM and weirwood, a wood that seems not to grow in Essos.) Jon did say that he thought it should have been much, much harder to get this type of loan. (And it's interesting to me how Jon succeeds at something, and rather than just patting himself on the back for being the Best Negotiator Ever, he wonders whether something was amiss with the process.)

Remember Tycho's statement to Jon? "“We who serve the Iron Bank face death full as often as you who serve the Iron Throne." It's possible that the Braavosi intend to basically tack the Watch's loan onto the loan to the Iron Throne should the Watch default, under the assumption (true or not) that the Watch is subordinate to the Iron Throne, relies on the Iron Throne for support, and thus, that the Iron Throne is ultimately responsible for the Watch's debts. Hell, Stannis might not even object to that---the Watch supported him in his time of need, it would only make sense for him to do the same.

One of the criticisms I've seen leveled at Jon elsewhere was his failure to tell the Watchmen about the new loan from the Iron Bank. It's a criticism that I've always seen as meritorious, given that Marsh's main concern (that he doesn't have the resources to feed the Watch and the wildlings) would presumably be immediately ameliorated by news of a new revenue stream. But on re-read, the notion that Jon's agreement with the Bank was somehow a secret doesn't really seem to hold water. Jon and Tycho Nestoris were closeted together, alone, for several hours, and I don't see how that was a secret; Jon approached Tycho in full view of a large group of people, after all. And after spending several hours together with the Lord Commander in his solar, alone, Tycho entered the mess hall with Jon (in full view of the Watchmen eating dinner) and sat down to eat with him. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that Jon had just made an agreement with Tycho, given that there's no other actual reason for the Lord Commander to be eating with a representative from the Iron Bank, and especially given that if no agreement had been reached, the two men would either be dining together in Jon's rooms (to negotiate further) or wouldn't be eating together at all (who would want to eat with the guy who just refused to give you money?). The men might not know the exact terms of the agreement, but the existence of such an agreement should have been widely accepted among the Watchmen.

[Faint]

Which is exactly what he should do as Lord Commander.

Well, this is a two-sided argument. This only works when the Lord Commander is right. It's probably not so much applicable to Jon specifically but the whole point of oaths is to restrict the Night's Watch from engaging in activity that does not conform to the ideals of the order. Sparing one who has taken up arms against the Night's Watch and disavowed his oaths might indeed be the correct choice in this particular circumstance, but by giving the Lord Commander so much leeway it might lead to a future circumstance where it's the incorrect position to take. That's the whole point of the oaths; they are a check on the Lord Commander's power.

[Ragnorak]

Speaking of Alys Karstark, I don't quite see her actions as _choosing_ Jon over Stannis, or Boltons, for that matter. The fact is, Stannis was far away, travelling, his location uncertain, she didn't have a prayer of reaching him.

And her usurping relatives allied themselves with the Boltons, so no reason to hope from help from that quarter. She went to Jon, because he was the only option, pure and simple, not because Starks are so magical. She had to gamble that Jon would hate the Boltons enough to oppose their allies, legally or not.

The funny thing is, that if Bolton could have foreseen the Karstark debacle, he probably wouldn't have sent Harrion off to Duskendale... and lawful Lord Harrion Karstark would have now been his trusted ally :).

Looking only at her circumstances the Stark legacy influence on is Alys far from clear. One could argue that she chose Jon over the Umbers or the Mountain Clans even though Robb beheaded her father but that isn't nearly conclusive and her Stark praise could be flattery given her life is on the line.

I think the fact that she shows up as a "fake Arya" matters. This is the only real example we have of someone evaluating a "fake Arya." Theon constantly thinks how can you not see? but we never get a POV to tell us if they do or do not actually see. Jon noting the age difference and the eyes happens to be the two big factors mentioned regarding Jeyne as a fake and it is the exact process we are deprived of when it comes to seeing Jeyne. The whole build up around her being Arya very much ties this scene into the Winterfell Wedding.

This also sits on top of a good deal of other Stark build up. Back in ASoS

“When there was a Stark in Winterfell, a maiden girl could walk the kingsroad in her name-day gown and still go unmolested, and travelers could find fire, bread, and salt at many an inn and holdfast. But the nights are colder now, and doors are closed. There’s squids in the wolfswood, and flayed men ride the kingsroad asking after strangers.”

The Reeds exchanged a look. “Flayed men?” said Jojen.

“The Bastard’s boys, aye. He was dead, but now he’s not. And paying good silver for wolfskins, a man hears, and maybe gold for word of certain other walking dead.” He looked at Bran when he said that, and at Summer stretched out beside him.

“The wolves will come again,” said Jojen solemnly.

“And how would you be knowing, boy?”

“I dreamed it.”

“Some nights I dream of me mother that I buried nine years past,” the man said, “but when I wake, she’s not come back to us.”

When they woke the next morning, the fire had gone out and the Liddle was gone, but he’d left a sausage for them, and a dozen oatcakes folded up neatly in a green and white cloth.

He clearly knows exactly who Bran is and what Bran is worth if he betrays him. He's clear about how he feels regarding both Stark and Bolton rule, but also highly pessimistic regarding the Stark's future. Still he leaves the food folded up neatly, as if with care.

Finally, after a nightmarish day when the column advanced a bare mile and lost a dozen horses and four men, Lord Peasebury turned against the northmen. “This march was madness. More dying every day, and for what? Some girl?”

“Ned’s girl,” echoed Big Bucket Wull. “And we should have had her and the castle both if you prancing southron jackanapes didn’t piss your satin breeches at a little snow.”

Aside from the inherent praise in Ned's girl we have his take on the Boltons:

That seemed to amuse the northman. “I want to live forever in a land where summer lasts a thousand years. I want a castle in the clouds where I can look down over the world. I want to be six-and-twenty again. When I was six-and-twenty I could fight all day and fuck all night. What men want does not matter.

Winter is almost upon us, boy. And winter is death. I would sooner my men die fighting for the Ned’s little girl than alone and hungry in the snow, weeping tears that freeze upon their cheeks. No one sings songs of men who die like that. As for me, I am old. This will be my last winter. Let me bathe in Bolton blood before I die. I want to feel it spatter across my face when my axe bites deep into a Bolton skull. I want to lick it off my lips and die with the taste of it on my tongue.”

Bathing in Bolton blood is his real world substitute for the fantasy of a never ending summer and a castle in the clouds. Both circumstances show extreme loyalty to the Starks, a sacrifice for the Starks, and highly negative Bolton sentiments.

This theme continues with Manderly's granddaughter and her The Promise speech, followed by Manderly's bargain with Davos. It isn't just the Red Wedding, the North remembers Lady Hornwood's fingers an exclusively Bolton act. Alys was betrothed to a Hornwood. As dramatic of a reveal as Manderly/Davos was, Martin escalates it with the Frey Pies and it is still building. I think Alys is one more piece of this larger theme.

To bring the focus back to leadership, I think Jon represents Ned's legacy. Tywin and Ned stand as contrasting icons of fear and love in leaders. I think that their legacies are also being contrasted especially with the Red Wedding. It is the ultimate fear move with short term gain but also long term consequences-- fear dies with you but love lives on. I think the Stark loyalty Alys is showing is one small piece of Martin's larger commentary on the fear vs love ruling philosophies and this may or may not be further enforced when we get to the Alys marriage chapter.

[Tagganaro]

Leaping back to Jon IX I rather like the parallel of Alys Karstark with the rider on the pale mare in Dany V. In both cases we have a fleeing refugee but while in Dany V this signals the collapse of Daenerys' settlement in Astapor here Alys brings about the downfall of part of the Bolton's northern settlement by bringing word of Uncle Karstark's planned betrayal of Stannis. Both riders precipitate change. The Grey Mare rider and Alys both remind Daenerys and Jon of their duties, though these are their duties as a leader and of family respectively. Of course Melisandre has primed Jon to be thinking about Arya but looking at this in context and how these feelings about his family are being brought up in Jon it makes his later decision less surprising - and notice that throwaway line about Axell Florant standing by while his brother was burnt to death. Jon of course back in AGOT was persuaded to stand by while his brother went off to war and to let him meet his fate alone.

Interesting parallel. Both riders bring with them "death" of some sort and both Jon and Dany are moved by compassion to help them. In Jon's case his compassion is better spent- Alys is saveable. The Pale Mare is beyond being helped, which might also be a comment on the general difference between Jon & Dany's respective situations.

I'm glad that Jon has misgivings about taking on the debt. I think I share his concern at how the Watch will ever be able to grow enough turnips to be able to pay back the Iron Bank - possibly though these shared misgivings come from having a mortgage...

Up until this point Jon has no solution to the second of his basic problems (ie how to feed his people through the Winter, with the first and very much interrelated problem being his need for more people to man and women the Wall). Money in theory allows him to buy in food although you do have to wonder where exactly he is going to buy the food in from...although I do believe grapes, olives and possibly in the near future beans might be available from Meereen ;).

From a leadership point of view though this is Jon taking advantage of events coming along. He took on more people without the means to feed them in the hope that something would come up, which effectively is what he is still doing. The gold doesn't guarentee a food supply through winter - it simply makes it possible (assuming the loan agreement gets back to Braavos). Given the season perhaps this was the best he could do? Daenerys' attempt to reach out to neighbours and to start up cultivation is in contrast a more wide ranging policy although it doesn't get to bare much fruit.

Jon and Dany's situations are actually remarkably similar in this aspect. Both of them are stuck with too many mouths to feed and close to nothing in terms of production/trade material. I like how Jon was very prepared for Tycho- He was well informed by Cotter Pyke of everything and was waiting for Tycho in particular with an offer in mind.

I kind of see the situation as a Catch-22. Jon has opened up the Wall to the wildlings because he's convinced the Wall is facing extinction if he doesn't and that's how he has interpreted his vows (guarding the Realm of Man- same conclusion Jeor Mormont came to as well). Now as a result he can either starve to death during the Winter or (hopefully) deal with an unpayable debt later on down the line.

It has been speculated before that lumber/timber is what the deal hinges on. We know Braavos has a severe shortage of such and it's the one thing the North and the Gift have an abundance of.

Jon argued for Mance's life long before Arya entered his calculations. He genuinely believed that sparing Mance was in the best interests of the Watch and their mission.

This is an interesting encapsulation of Jon's entire philosophy at this point. The vows and the words exactly don't mean nearly so much as the spirit (mainly to guard the realms of man). Here, Jon has rightfully and respectfully seen what Mance is capable of- He can bind the wildlings together under his rule, probably come close to ensuring good behavior on their part, and serve as an advertisement to those still North of the Wall to come south. So Mance is an oathbreaker and a turncloak, but he can be very helpful to the NW.

That's a distinction that is lost entirely on Stannis, who follows Laws and vows exactly to their letter and has no room to bend or be flexible (i.e. Noye's story about him breaking before bending).

And this suspicion about Mance being more useful alive than dead is confirmed when Jon comes across the wildlings at the Weirwood Grove. They refuse to come along with him because they heard what happened to Mance (Something that leads Jon to think "You and your Red God have much to answer for" paraphrasing).

Which makes it even more interesting what ends up happening with the wildlings- They can trust the word of a son of Eddard Stark and LC of the NW. Jon doesn't quite realize that he's the Mance replacement at this point...Tormund is a dangerous man and as Jon said a good friend to have but also a bad enemy to make, but he doesn't quite strike me as a Leader. Jon for all intents and purposes has become King of the Wildlings/King beyond the Wall at this point without even realizing it in Mance's absence.

[Julian Rayne]

Well, this is a two-sided argument. This only works when the Lord Commander is right. It's probably not so much applicable to Jon specifically but the whole point of oaths is to restrict the Night's Watch from engaging in activity that does not conform to the ideals of the order. Sparing one who has taken up arms against the Night's Watch and disavowed his oaths might indeed be the correct choice in this particular circumstance, but by giving the Lord Commander so much leeway it might lead to a future circumstance where it's the incorrect position to take. That's the whole point of the oaths; they are a check on the Lord Commander's power.

That's a fair point. In fact I was thinking of the Night's King while I was typing that. However I always assumed that the Lord of Winterfell was the check on the LC.

Also there's nothing in his oath about executing deserters. The oath is more or less defending the realms of men with clauses to re-enforce that.

[Faint]

Looking only at her circumstances the Stark legacy influence on is Alys far from clear.

I had similar thoughts. Her circumstances were so dire that, it's quite plausible that she might even hate the Starks but run to Jon's protection anyway (not that I think this is the situation in this particular instance).

[Faint]

That's a fair point. In fact I was thinking of the Night's King while I was typing that. However I always assumed that the Lord of Winterfell was the check on the LC.

Yes but something has to check the Lord Commander and that's the oaths he takes. At the very least, he should be at least circumspect about breaking the oaths, and the only way that happens is if there are consequences for breaking them.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

<snip>

Really well said. I love the mountain clan men talking about the Starks and how it's worth fighting and dying for them, and piss on the Boltons. You have love on the one hand and fear on the other, and the love is winning.