Were the Starks poor?

[jblair]

yea and they mention that they have the hot water running through the walls or something dont they?

Sadly, it appears that all of the Stark's major achievements are thousands of years old, although admittedly the greenhouse could have been the contribution of a later generation.

[Prince of the Green]

The Stark riches, I believe, don't include gold, jewels, fancy clothing, or expensive swords. They reside in knowledge, lore, and the men around them. That's probably a good reason for the love that the northmen bear for the Starks in general. They didn't flaunt any sort of wealth and always seemed very openhanded with their vassals.

The Lannisters may be rich in gold, blonde hair, and intimidation, but the Starks commanded a respect from their fellow northerners that I have yet to see from any of the other 6 kingdoms in Westeros. That could be considered invaluable to the point of it being considered riches in and of itself.

[James Arryn]

Although it's not a direct parallel, the sense I get is that the North's relationship to the south is roughly the same as it was in ME Britain. I know the sizes are larger, but in terms of how it relates...so I think the North is probably materially poorer than the major southern Houses, but also probably has more economic independance and lower taxes, as was true for the north in Britain. In part because the low people to area ratio makes collecting a harder, less bang for your buck process, in part out of a recognition of the northerners having to work harder to break even, and in part out of recognition of how much harder it is to seriously impose too much on a people so far away, and with looser ties to the crown.

I would say that the earlier list had it right, certainly for top 5 or 10. I'd agree, Lannisters, Hightowers, Tyrells, Arryns as imo the clear top 4. I think the Riverlands has the capacity to be as wealthy as the Vale or even Reach, when you consider agriculture and river trade/transport, but serving as the battleground for most major wars does come at a cost. People point out that the Riverlands have no major cities, which is true, but they also seem to have a ton of towns compared with the other regions.

The Vale is interesting because of the combination of fertile land and low expenses; their natural situation means they can really afford to concentrate their forces and just mobilize in the event they decide on aggressive action...that's a seriously advantagous economic situation, and Gulltown seems to be the major city closest to the Free Cities, so I'd imagine a lot of traffic goes through there. Also, we know that they fought with the North often, and the only disputed lands we know of went to the Vale (the sisters).

I might dispute the top spot, though, especially now. I think it entirely possible that the Hightowers are now the wealthiest House in Westeros, with the expenses the Lannisters would have incured over the war. I think they might even be wealthier normally, just that they seem to be the opposite of the Lannisters in terms of making public currency out of their wealth. For wharever reason, they really seem to husband their resources, but you get the sense of a sleeping giant.

The Tyrells simply have to be seriously wealthy. Everything points to that being the case, nothing against it. "Only" ruling for 300 years doesn't really have much to do with it. They also have by far the wealthiest subbordinate houses (Hightower, Redwyne, Rowan, etc.)

I think the Greyjoys are the poorest, certainly. After that probably Dorne. Then you have the 3 (Riverlands, Baratheons, Starks) that are all probably more or less in the same boat, and if pushed I'd say the Riverlands have the most potential but a lot of expense, so maybe Stark, Tully, Baratheon. These 3 imo can go pretty much any way.

[Pod The Impaler]

The Starks probably have some mines as well. Let's not forget that Westeros is said to be roughly the size of s. America. The Lannisters may have a high concentration of gold & silver mines, but I bet theirs are not the only ones.

The North is vast, but also sparsely populated. On the one hand, there are not so many people to produce wealth, but neither are there many to use it up. Population and wealth tends to find an equilibrium - the Reach likely much more high-yield arable land, but the population they have to feed grows to match it. So they're unlikely to be better off in that respect.

Let's face it, the North probably has a very different attitude towards the uses of wealth as well. They are less ostentatious, probably keep more of their wealth / resources in reserve because when they hit the hard times (winter) it really is much harder to survive. So, while they may have less income, and are less ostentatious, you're not likely to see them spend their way to an early grave, buying luxury items.

The story of Ser Jorah and his southron wife Lynesse is a good example. She had rich tastes, and he took her to his home where life was clearly very spartan and isolated. The people are not like peacocks, they are like bears. There is an underlying reason for this - winter is coming, and survival is is priority #1.

[KL State of Mind]

Don't sleep on the Arbor. The Redwynes have a huge trading fleet and one of the most desirable trading goods in the world. Their incomes are probably huge.

Also, Hightower richer than Tyrell? Not sure about that.

[cybroleach]

Considering the Starks were kings for the vast part of history I would say they were third behind the Lannisters and Hightowers. The Tyrells wealth is overrated because their family is considered "new wealth." Just because the Starks didn't flaunt their wealth doesn't mean they didn't have it. Being a Stark of Winterfell is a pretty huge deal.

That's a silly way of looking at current house finaces this isn't a civalization game. 10,000 years vrs 300 means NOTHING with kings and great houses. They send and depleate accumulated wealth within a generation or two it's not an untuched backaccount. Brandon the Shipwright wasted tons of money building the worlds greatest fleat only to have his son burn it, King Aerys 'left a treasury overflowing' a meer 13years later was 600K in debt. When the King needed to borrow he did ask 'super wealthy' Ned but instead was leveraged to Tywin, Bravos, the faith and Mace.

To see the most wealth we have to look at revenue streams of established houses and Tyrells are not far behind the Lanisters. The Arryns are likely righer as well larger city, biger towns, more fertile lands and shorter shipping routes. Tully I can see being behind Stark as they took the brunt of Robert's rebelion in battle ground and houses supporting Aerys BUT on times of peace I'd imagine they gain on Stark. Martell should make alot of decent incomes as they have alot of exports that are great delicatecies only comming from dorne. Bratheon are 'poor' harsh land breeding harsh people. Greyjoy are obvously the low house but most houses wish they could be as poor as the Greyjoys.

[Gurkhal]

The Starks probably have some mines as well. Let's not forget that Westeros is said to be roughly the size of s. America. The Lannisters may have a high concentration of gold & silver mines, but I bet theirs are not the only ones.

True, the Manderlys are, if I remember, said to have silver mines so obviously there are mines in the North also those producing precious metals.

The North is vast, but also sparsely populated. On the one hand, there are not so many people to produce wealth, but neither are there many to use it up. Population and wealth tends to find an equilibrium - the Reach likely much more high-yield arable land, but the population they have to feed grows to match it. So they're unlikely to be better off in that respect.

But with a lower population there are also less production made and thus less wealth. I don't buy this model I'm afraid.

Let's face it, the North probably has a very different attitude towards the uses of wealth as well. They are less ostentatious, probably keep more of their wealth / resources in reserve because when they hit the hard times (winter) it really is much harder to survive. So, while they may have less income, and are less ostentatious, you're not likely to see them spend their way to an early grave, buying luxury items.

The main issue is that the Northmen don't have the physical money to buy these stuff and thus haven't developed a culture for it. I don't think that cultural differences are that great. If winter hits in the North I'd rather have grain gathered and the cattle sheltered rather than having saved a couple of Silver Stags on my latest set of clothing.

The story of Ser Jorah and his southron wife Lynesse is a good example. She had rich tastes, and he took her to his home where life was clearly very spartan and isolated. The people are not like peacocks, they are like bears. There is an underlying reason for this - winter is coming, and survival is is priority #1.

I made a very different interperation. I took it that there was no wealth even remotely close to Highgarden on Bear Islands and Jorah spent what little he had to please his wife, even going so far as to sell the poachers to the slavers.

But that' just me and I could of course be wrong.

[Lion of Judah]

Certainly not poor by a longshot, but not Lannister rich.

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

Whatever their wealth, the Starks had enough to provide silk dresses for both Sansa and Arya (recall Arya tries to hide Needle under a pile of "silks"). In fact, most noblewomen wear fine fabrics and jewelry; the Westerlings were poor as nobles went, but Lady Sybelle had a nice necklace of golden seashells in AFFC. When Sansa is "Alayne" she wears a dress "little more than a maidservant would wear" (paraphrased) and it's still a nice material - lambswool - with embroidery. Arya gets outfitted with two nice dresses - the acorn one and a lilac silk with seed pearls - when she's on the run. Perhaps women tend to wear their wealth on their person but it seems that most dress very nicely, outside of the Bear Island women (who wear armor), Asha (who wears men's clothes) and those are fighting women who would ruin a silk dress.

With Lynesse/Jorah, I think his house was especially poor and hers especially rich, plus Lynesse seems to have been, if not rather spoilt, at least oblivious to where money came from. Plus face it, if you're living on a northern island, wool is going to be warmer and more practical than silk. I'm sure it's freezing cold there most of the time.

When Shae goes to be Lady Lollys' bed-maid, Tyrion tells her not to dress above her station, but IIRC she gets to take a silk dress or two.

Some of the wealthier houses do seem to have extras: Cersei with her crowns and loads and loads of jewelry, Wylla Manderly with her green hair which had to be expensive imported Tyroshi dye (Alayne frets about running out when she is dying her own hair), Loras with his over-the-top enamelled and jewelled armor, Renly who could afford to have a miniature of Margaery painted (portraits seem to have been very rare).

[Independent George]

It actually wouldn't surprise me if the Starks, and many other prominent houses, were land rich and cash poor. We know from Littlefinger that many of the major houses in the Reach were in that exact situation, and the Westerosi attitude towards wealth makes me think it's a fairly widespread problem. There seems to be a real shortage of capital, which Littlefinger exploits effortlessly.

The main issue is that the Northmen don't have the physical money to buy these stuff and thus haven't developed a culture for it. I don't think that cultural differences are that great. If winter hits in the North I'd rather have grain gathered and the cattle sheltered rather than having saved a couple of Silver Stags on my latest set of clothing.

Actually, given the nature of the climate, having a futures market on commodities like grain or furs would aid the north tremendously.

[Elaena_Dragon_Queen]

Probably they were ''poor'' compared to other houses. Of course, ''poor'' is a very bad world to define any Great Lords anyway. I believe the hierarchy of ''incomes'' among Great Houses at the beginning of GoT is something like:

Lannister

Tyrell

Baratheon (from Kingslanding, duo to taxes... not considering the debts here, just incomes)

Martell

Arryn

Stark

Tully

Baratheon (from Dragonstone)

Greyjoy

Targaryen (exiled)

I would say fully above Stark well done, House Targaryen has the highest networth because Dany's Dragons are priceless, worth more that any mines or castles

[Elaena_Dragon_Queen]

Martell is extremely rich don't forget

[Arkantos]

Well, Ned made a greenhouse just for Catelyn didn't he? That stuff is expensive, so even if the majority of their wealth is measured in goods, like grain, furs etc, they still have some gold kicking about.

[Castel]

Well, Ned made a greenhouse just for Catelyn didn't he? That stuff is expensive, so even if the majority of their wealth is measured in goods, like grain, furs etc, they still have some gold kicking about.

Uh, no. I think he made a sept for her. The greenhouses seem to have been left over along with the pipes.

[Jaak]

To see the most wealth we have to look at revenue streams of established houses and Tyrells are not far behind the Lanisters. The Arryns are likely righer as well larger city, biger towns, more fertile lands and shorter shipping routes. Tully I can see being behind Stark as they took the brunt of Robert's rebelion in battle ground and houses supporting Aerys BUT on times of peace I'd imagine they gain on Stark. Martell should make alot of decent incomes as they have alot of exports that are great delicatecies only comming from dorne.

It is not just the matter of delicacies and exports.

My perception is that while Dorne is the least populous of the 7 Kingdoms - thus less populous than North - for one they are far smaller than North. Which means that the dry Mediterranean Dorne is still more densely settled than North. The Starks have more people in total, but scattered over the large area their produce is hard to transport and sell - and once it is sold, it is hard for Starks to tax. Meaning that Dorne has bigger proportion of its smaller economy based on money and Martell taxation.

For another, consider the outlook of Dorne. While North is basically isolationist and tries to stay out even from matters of Westeros, Dorne - unlike even the other kingdoms on Narrow Seas like Vale or Stormlands - has intense political entanglements in Essos, like picking their Princess from Norvos. This suggests that they may also have more importance for economic trade with their neighbours like Tyrosh, Myr, Lys...

And again for another, look at the central government.

Winterfell is undermanned. Not only in total guards but in permanent, specialized officials.

Arianne complains that she has nothing to do save entertaining her guests - not only is Oberyn in overall charge, but Arianne lists the other officials. Castellan Manfrey Martell, seneschal Ricasso, and also treasurer Alyse Ladybright to whom bailiffs report, and "justiciars".

Look at Winterfell. There is steward Vayon Poole, whom Eddard takes along to King´s Landing. And then - we hear emphasis on replacing commander of guard, but how about replacing steward?

The fact that Winterfell does not permanently employ a specialized treasurer, and does not even pay much attention to refilling the steward post, suggests that Winterfell has rather simple household, and does not in peacetime handle large and complex cash flows - for example the lords may pay little peacetime cash taxes.

[Arkantos]

Uh, no. I think he made a sept for her. The greenhouses seem to have been left over along with the pipes.

Fair enough, but the sept will still have had windows in or some nice decoration, not cheap ^.^

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

So many houses trying to marry into Winterfell (Tully's did with Cat, Tyrell's trying to marry Sansa to Wiias, Lannister's forcing Sansa to marry Tyrion [or Lancel if that didn't work], even Lyssa trying to get her to marry Sweet Robin) it's got to be worth something.

[analeigh]

So many houses trying to marry into Winterfell (Tully's did with Cat, Tyrell's trying to marry Sansa to Wiias, Lannister's forcing Sansa to marry Tyrion [or Lancel if that didn't work], even Lyssa trying to get her to marry Sweet Robin) it's got to be worth something.

I think the great houses trying to get marriage ties to the Starks in the last generation and now is a complex issue. The wealth, power, and prestige the Starks have ruling the entire North of Westeros, yeah that's part of the appeal to be connected to them. But I think it also has to do with how exclusive the Starks appeared to be, by picking only from the bannermen sworn to them. Even the Targaryens eventually married the younger offspring into the great houses. But before Rickard, none of the Southern great houses had a chance of getting a marriage alliance with the Starks. But once Rickard entertained the idea of marrying his offspring to the other great houses... surprise, surprise, it's no wonder the Tullys and Baratheons were eager to take him up on the rare opportunity.

[Alia of the knife]

The Starks probably have some mines as well. Let's not forget that Westeros is said to be roughly the size of s. America. The Lannisters may have a high concentration of gold & silver mines, but I bet theirs are not the only ones.

The North is vast, but also sparsely populated. On the one hand, there are not so many people to produce wealth, but neither are there many to use it up. Population and wealth tends to find an equilibrium - the Reach likely much more high-yield arable land, but the population they have to feed grows to match it. So they're unlikely to be better off in that respect.

Let's face it, the North probably has a very different attitude towards the uses of wealth as well. They are less ostentatious, probably keep more of their wealth / resources in reserve because when they hit the hard times (winter) it really is much harder to survive. So, while they may have less income, and are less ostentatious, you're not likely to see them spend their way to an early grave, buying luxury items.

The story of Ser Jorah and his southron wife Lynesse is a good example. She had rich tastes, and he took her to his home where life was clearly very spartan and isolated. The people are not like peacocks, they are like bears. There is an underlying reason for this - winter is coming, and survival is is priority #1.

:agree:

[Alia of the knife]

I have never been under the impression that the Starks were poor- on the contrary, they were the biggest Kingdom of all the Kingdoms before the conquering, ruling 8000 years, and later Wardens of the North.

There is no Seven Kingdoms without the North, since it's the size of all the Kingdoms put together.

Their wealth is both tangible, and in loyalty, so I doubt that Rickard could have brokered a match with the Kings own cousin, as well as the Tullys if they didn't have something to bring to the table.

They were perhaps a little more cirmcumspect and frugal in their wealth than the flashier Houses, (remember Ned having a fit over the expense of the Tourney), and I would include the Whents, (whom Cat was descended from), the Tyrells, as well as the Lannisters.

And the Tyrells still have a mind to have Sansa.

And I agree that the Starks are probably sitting on natural wealth as well, but after all the debts Robert racked up and the the later wars, the Lannisters may be tapped out if they have to turn to the Iron Bank, which also might suggest the Tyrells are not bringing much to the table either.

It's one thing for the Starks to fend off the Greyjoys, but eventually the rest of the Kingdom may have come calling for financial relief, so the Starks may have chosen to not be so obvious about their wealth.

And yes, the meaning of the glass. They have access to, or use very expensive glass in their Greenhouses, (this also suggests a certain knowledge and technology in controlling an environment), and perhaps through the whole of the castle.

They also seem to have hot, running water which runs through the walls that come from the Springs, so from a hygiene standpoint, they may have an advantage if there is a central bathhouse, and servants don't have lug tubs and hotwater up and down stairs.