Heresy 19

[Tyryan Lannister]

My alter ego, Ser Sceptic, wishes it known that he has been having a field day with this.

Even in your example above, if R+L DOES = J.... the Appendices don't give us false info by saying he's Ned's bastard.

Like I said, when the truth or a specific detail is part of a future twist or mystery, vagaries are generously employed.

I agree that certainly there are no spoilers... but there also are no outright falsehoods.

GRRM repeatedly withholds information/details.... he doesn't tell us the whole story, but he certainly does not feed us false information/details.

*****EDIT - Somehow I missed this....

In Clash - Jon, Bastard of Winterfell

In Storm - Jon, the crow-come-over

In Feast - Jon, Basard of Winterfell, 998th LC

In Dance - Jon Bastard of Winterfell, 998th LC

Appendix be canon, say I.

I don't have books with me at moment so can't verify, but isn't he listed under Ned in GoT and not in his own category? If he is under Ned, then it is implied by that placement that he is one of Ned's children.

[mrazny]

The Long Night could not have lasted for more than say 10 years, because that would pretty much wipe out all life on the planet, similar to a nuclear winter such as the aftereffects seen in the movie the Road.

My view is that the Long Night is not a true darkness, just a long Winter, where the sun shines for very short periods each day, rather than the perpetual night as seen at the South or North pole during winter.

After the Long Night ends, humanity is pretty much on the brink of extinction, and human civilization starts up again at this point with the presumed birth of the Empire of Great Ghis, and maybe civilizations like Ashai in the East, and of course Kingdoms like the Starks in Westeros.

That's my timeline of the Ice and Fire World.

Firstly, I'm really not sure how this Long Night was only 1,000 years ago creeped into either of your minds. So let me stop you right there before anymore insinuations are made that I believe that. At all.

My personal take has been to go down rabbit holes, of which you operate under some controlled assumptions to see how they feel, then back track and go again. I personally like to reset to core challenges within the text and operate again. See my signature below for how I take to these conversations, and at no point am I accepting anything as fact.

Just because Ghis claimed to be from 8,000 years ago does not make it an a -> b correlation that the Long Night extended to Slaver's Bay, than Ghis rose from that. There is no hard evidence that I've read or remembered. Please present your case for that If you'd like, or make that one of the aspects that you feel to be true. Don't tell me it's fact if you can't support it.

[Tyryan Lannister]

The Long Night could not have lasted for more than say 10 years, because that would pretty much wipe out all life on the planet, similar to a nuclear winter such as the aftereffects seen in the movie the Road.

Just have to nitpick this here. You are doing the exact same thing here that you've been accusing us of doing with the timeline, in that you're taking a theory (the Long Night covered the entire planet) for which there is nothing but suspect circumstantial evidence (the SUPPOSEDLY 5000 year all book with a prophecy about an AAR and Mel's... well, Mel being Mel) and applying it as fact. The only thing we know about the scope of the Long Night is that it affected areas both north and south of the Wall. We don't even know for sure if it covered all of Westeros.

Edit: Spelling

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

The Children of the Forest talk about being around for about 1 million years. A thousand thousand years is mentioned at one point by Leaf.

About 12,000 years ago, the First Men arrive.

The Pact is signed apparently very soon after that - say about 11900 years ago for want of a better estimate. The point is, this pact is said to last for 4000 years until the Long Night, 8000 years a go.

The Long Night could not have lasted for more than say 10 years, because that would pretty much wipe out all life on the planet, similar to a nuclear winter such as the aftereffects seen in the movie the Road.

My view is that the Long Night is not a true darkness, just a long Winter, where the sun shines for very short periods each day, rather than the perpetual night as seen at the South or North pole during winter.

After the Long Night ends, humanity is pretty much on the brink of extinction, and human civilization starts up again at this point with the presumed birth of the Empire of Great Ghis, and maybe civilizations like Ashai in the East, and of course Kingdoms like the Starks in Westeros.

Then about 5000 years ago the Valyrians discover Dragons nesting in the volcanoes of the Fourteen Fires, and the Valyrian Empire is born. They conquer Old Ghis and much of the known world and set up a civilization of unparralled technology, magic and sophistication.

At this time the great Rhoynish civilization also exists and develops technologies such as Iron Working - although it could well have been imported from the older Ghiscari Empire to the southeast, for all we know.

The contentous part, in my view, is when the Andals move to Westeros. Up to this point, they are still living as simple tribesmen in the Hills of Andalos, east of Pentos. They apparently learn Iron Working from the more advanced Rhoynar, but this merely follows the pattern of technology springing up in the older civilizations of the east, like Ghis, and maybe even Ashai, before making its gradual way west to the Rhoynar and then lastly to the Andals in the far west of Essos.

I think that as the Valryians began expanding, they started putting pressure on the Rhoynar, who in turn were forced to stop all expansion to the south and east, and were therefore forced to channel any excessive population growth to the more primitive western areas inhabited by the Andals.

Thus, the Valyrians indirectly caused the Andals to start migrating, as the Andals were pushed out by the more advanced Rhoynar.

I think the Andals migrated to Westeros between 4000 and 2500 years ago. Probably around 3000 years ago would be a good middle ground (it would fall halfway between the Long count of 4000 years and the short count of 2000 years as presented by Rodrik the Reader).

So they first arrive in Westeros say 3000 years ago, and conquer the Vale first. From there they spread out to the rest of the south, conquering the hundreds of small, divided kingdoms of the First Men one by one. By 2500 years ago they probably rule the entire south.

But get thrown back by the North until the present day.

That's my timeline of the Ice and Fire World.

Good summary. I have no objections.

One big question which we've previously taken pot shots at in past threads, but have not been able to adequately explain (in my opinion) is what caused the Andals to buy into the Night's Watch so thoroughly? We've frequently discussed how the NW has become Andalized in many respects.... to the point where Northern/First Men/Old Gods beliefs & traditions have largely become subordinate to Southron/Andal/Seven beliefs & traditions. The Andals didn't experience the events in Westeros that one way or another resulted in the creation of the NW & Wall.

((((Side bar, Last thread I suggested a rather neat App .... here's the website: westerosmap.com Free download. Neat detailed map. Description of all cities/locations/castles. Close ups of the Wall forts, KingsLanding, Iron Islands, etc. From the world map it's clear that Essos does not have a land connection to the polar regions as Westeros does. While one could argue that with polar ice sheets moving South in a bad winter, the ice would eventually reach Essos, but short of that, it's hard to see through what vector WW's could reach Essos.))))

It could be argued that the Andalization of the NW led to it becoming a penal colony rather than a military order. But even so, I still find it remarkable that the Andals, who never were able to penetrate the Neck, were so willing to man & support the NW. It seems like they began supporting the NW relatively quickly after arriving in Westeros. I can't help but wonder why the Andals didn't just leave defending the Wall to the Northerners. I sincerely doubt they're manning the NW from some altruistic sense of "we're in this together"....

Andal support for the NW may suggest that they did indeed encounter WW's in Essos at some point way back when...

A mystery.

[DragonSpawn]

No, it was CotF vs FM, Pact, Age of Heroes, then Long Night. And yes, the Age of Heroes (which is apparently sometimes referred to as 'dawn of days') had the Grey King, for example, who supposedly reigned for 1007 years.

Every time i read the story it sounds slightly different... lol! Sounds like a hundred year Winter at least ("longer than the memory of man") ... and then within that there was a night that lasted "a generation"... within that night "the WW came for the first time"... kingdoms and cities that were already suffering in the Winter fell easily.. the last hero sought the CotF for years and then they eventually helped him... how the pact and the age of heroes fits in has always been a little confusing to me...

[Lummel]

...It could be argued that the Andalization of the NW led to it becoming a penal colony rather than a military order. But even so, I still find it remarkable that the Andals, who never were able to penetrate the Neck, were so willing to man & support the NW. It seems like they began supporting the NW relatively quickly after arriving in Westeros. I can't help but wonder why the Andals didn't just leave defending the Wall to the Northerners. I sincerely doubt they're manning the NW from some altruistic sense of "we're in this together"....

A mystery.

It's convenient isn't it? It offers an honourable escape route to defeated knights and lords that puts them permenantly out of the game of thrones.

[Tyryan Lannister]

Good summary. I have no objections.

One big question which we've previously taken pot shots at in past threads, but have not been able to adequately explain (in my opinion) is what caused the Andals to buy into the Night's Watch so thoroughly? We've frequently discussed how the NW has become Andalized in many respects.... to the point where Northern/First Men/Old Gods beliefs & traditions have largely become subordinate to Southron/Andal/Seven beliefs & traditions. The Andals didn't experience the events in Westeros that one way or another resulted in the creation of the NW & Wall.

((((Side bar, Last thread I suggested a rather neat App .... here's the website: westerosmap.com Free download. Neat detailed map. Description of all cities/locations/castles. Close ups of the Wall forts, KingsLanding, Iron Islands, etc. From the world map it's clear that Essos does not have a land connection to the polar regions as Westeros does. While one could argue that with polar ice sheets moving South in a bad winter, the ice would eventually reach Essos, but short of that, it's hard to see through what vector WW's could reach Essos.))))

It could be argued that the Andalization of the NW led to it becoming a penal colony rather than a military order. But even so, I still find it remarkable that the Andals, who never were able to penetrate the Neck, were so willing to man & support the NW. It seems like they began supporting the NW relatively quickly after arriving in Westeros. I can't help but wonder why the Andals didn't just leave defending the Wall to the Northerners. I sincerely doubt they're manning the NW from some altruistic sense of "we're in this together"....

Andal support for the NW may suggest that they did indeed encounter WW's in Essos at some point way back when...

A mystery.

I could be something along the lines of: "We, the First Men, have been conquered. I want my life, but know that you'll throw me in a dungeon if I stay by you, my now Andal overlord. Instead, let me travel to the far north, where this ancient organization, the Night's Watch, is to protect us all. They hold no allegiances" etc. The Andals agree, and, as time progresses and they fill up their dungeons, they are also getting the calls from the NW for more men. Not knowing this thing as anything other than the place that those we conquered fled to, they decide to empty their dungeons, in process opening up space, easing the purse strings, and getting those weird northerners from this NW thing to shut up about needing more men.

I feel that the Andalization of the NW was done either through this, as a major penal colony through which the Northerners/First Men soon became overwhelmed by, or, as has been speculated, as part of this plan by the younger Stark in Winterfell to remove his brother the Night's King and using some of the Andals as allies in this fight (most likely the Andal allies were the Andals of the Vale who arrived much earlier than the rest, I believe, and who by this time had made peace with the Starks.)

But, throwing aside the above heretical view, the only thing right now that makes sense to me as to how the NW became Andalized is the penal colony thing.

[nanother]

Good summary. I have no objections.

One big question which we've previously taken pot shots at in past threads, but have not been able to adequately explain (in my opinion) is what caused the Andals to buy into the Night's Watch so thoroughly? We've frequently discussed how the NW has become Andalized in many respects.... to the point where Northern/First Men/Old Gods beliefs & traditions have largely become subordinate to Southron/Andal/Seven beliefs & traditions. The Andals didn't experience the events in Westeros that one way or another resulted in the creation of the NW & Wall.

...

It could be argued that the Andalization of the NW led to it becoming a penal colony rather than a military order. But even so, I still find it remarkable that the Andals, who never were able to penetrate the Neck, were so willing to man & support the NW. It seems like they began supporting the NW relatively quickly after arriving in Westeros. I can't help but wonder why the Andals didn't just leave defending the Wall to the Northerners. I sincerely doubt they're manning the NW from some altruistic sense of "we're in this together"....

Andal support for the NW may suggest that they did indeed encounter WW's in Essos at some point way back when...

A mystery.

I'd guess that after defeating the kings of First Men, they were still trying to marry into old families to consolidate the conquered areas - old families that still might have traditions of seeking glory through the NW. They may have forced their religion on the FM, but after that was done, the cultural assimilation could have been relatively peaceful. Also, they do come quite handy as penal colonies as well, although I'd think that aspect started to dominate much more recently...

Also, if nothing else, there is a record of them encountering giants, and trading with CotF, so between that and the wildlings there could have been still enugh going on to make it interesting.

Also, since the North was reputedly inconquerable on land, the NW could have been an opportunity to have an opening there (although I don't necessarily subscribe to the 'Andals defeated the Night's King' theories)

[Été]

Even if the Long Night affected Andalos (and the light-worship at the centre of the Faith suggests to me that it did), it's not at the heart of their culture as it is for the First Men. The North probably doesn't have the population to man the Wall by itself, so from the Andal invasion onwards I imagine they needed men like Yoren to empty the dungeons of the south. The NW gets manpower, the Andals acquire a conveniently remote penal colony that runs itself. It's become "Andalised" as a matter of pure numbers - most new recruits are convicts, and most criminals in Westeros are Andals, so that proportion will have crept up, especially after Aegon united the kingdoms.

It's also worth mentioning that the NW dovetails neatly with the Andal concept of the Sworn Brotherhood. They have maesters, septons, Kingsguard etc, and they put the NW under that umbrella. It's spun as a noble vocation and it's glamourously martial, which attracts the younger sons and provides a redemptive veneer for criminals.

[Ciazio]

Even if the Long Night affected Andalos (and the light-worship at the centre of the Faith suggests to me that it did), it's not at the heart of their culture as it is for the First Men. The North probably doesn't have the population to man the Wall by itself, so from the Andal invasion onwards I imagine they needed men like Yoren to empty the dungeons of the south. The NW gets manpower, the Andals acquire a conveniently remote penal colony that runs itself. It's become "Andalised" as a matter of pure numbers - most new recruits are convicts, and most criminals in Westeros are Andals, so that proportion will have crept up, especially after Aegon united the kingdoms.

Might we say that the large part of the Wall's forts were built after the Andal invasion to house former First Men kings, soldiers, smallfolk that rebelled to their invasion? Maybe the only one pre-Andals was the Nightfort?

It's also worth mentioning that the NW dovetails neatly with the Andal concept of the Sworn Brotherhood. They have maesters, septons, Kingsguard etc, and they put the NW under that umbrella. It's spun as a noble vocation and it's glamourously martial, which attracts the younger sons and provides a redemptive veneer for criminals.

The Kingsguard is an order established by Aegon, I hit my head on it whilst trying to figure out a connection like "The Kingsguards are to the Andal Kings what the Night's Watch was for the Night's King". :cool4:

[Black Crow]

The new trend I see is this "forensic audit" approach, whereby every sentence by someone like Jeor Mormont or any other relevant character is now picked apart, and depending on his choice of wording, new conclusions are reached.

Heck people, Mormont was chatting casually to Jon. If he said long ago, or a thousand years ago, or thousands and thousands of years ago, you can't make major adjustments to the timeline based on his uninformed word choice.

I have to point out here that the Mormont reference had nothing to do with timelines. Indeed the "uninformed word choice" was quite explicit in referring to the Long Night occurring 8,000 years ago. The point which was actually being made was that he was shocked by the fact the dead were walking; by contrast the fact that there were white shadows in the woods wasn't being connected with the Long Night, just as he earlier didn't connect the reports of white walkers on the shore near Eastwatch. The white walkers/white shadows are nothing new, seasonal perhaps but nothing new. That's what the significance of the conversation was and there was no question of "uninformed word choice".

[Été]

The Kingsguard is an order established by Aegon, I hit my head on it whilst trying to figure out a connection like "The Kingsguards are to the Andal Kings what the Night's Watch was for the Night's King". :cool4:

Ooh interesting shout ^_^ That said, the KG feels like a very Andal idea even if it came from a Valyrian: an elite group of knights who devote their lives to serving the realm. Do we know if any of the Andal kings had a forerunner? How old is the Faith Militant?

[mrazny]

This might be some good territory to examine. When were Maesters posted in the North? We know septs were at least so uncommon that Ned had to build Catelyn the one in Winterfell.

A quick view of the Lord Commanders doesn't bring many Andal's to the forefront. There's a Runcel Hightower named, but he's linked to Castle Black, which wasn't CB the newest post? One effectively commisioned by Queen Alysanne?

It might be interesting to re-cull the facts surrounding which Andals were involved in the watch and when?

quick supposition: if the NW was a roughly North-Only institution, but Lord Stark saw means to bolster their ranks while bending the knee?

[kissdbyfire]

I don't have books with me at moment so can't verify, but isn't he listed under Ned in GoT and not in his own category? If he is under Ned, then it is implied by that placement that he is one of Ned's children.

He probably is listed under Ned. Haven't checked. But the point is, that's where he should be since the 'truth' in that moment is that he is Ned's bastard. It's the exact same thing as listing Sandor Clegane as 'presumed dead'. It's not to throw readers off, it's because that is the known truth in that moment. To be honest, these are clues to the reader, if anything.

[Black Crow]

... I still find it remarkable that the Andals, who never were able to penetrate the Neck, were so willing to man & support the NW. It seems like they began supporting the NW relatively quickly after arriving in Westeros. I can't help but wonder why the Andals didn't just leave defending the Wall to the Northerners. I sincerely doubt they're manning the NW from some altruistic sense of "we're in this together"....

Andal support for the NW may suggest that they did indeed encounter WW's in Essos at some point way back when...

I'm not sure we're so very far apart on this one. As you rightly remark there is a fundamental problem here in that the Andals arrive in Westeros, whenever it really was, and spend a period of years fighting more or less successfully to take over the six southern kingdoms and then for some time after that fighting unsuccessfully to cross the Neck into the North. Notwithstanding, they are then allowed to come north to serve on the Wall in such numbers as to change the very character of the Watch, so that instead of worshipping the Old Gods they sing to the New.

Leaving aside for a moment the political implications of allowing large numbers of Andal soldiery to pass unimpeded, this does indeed imply that the Andals regarded service on the Wall as a necessary duty.

What some of us are suggesting is that this is connected with the burning of the weirwoods and the flight of the Children and the other old races beyond the Wall, ie; they fled beyond the Wall because the Andals were allowed to come after them and man the Wall. This is why its being argued that the Nights King episode fits this period because it represents a breaking of the links with the old races.

[Black Crow]

I don't have books with me at moment so can't verify, but isn't he listed under Ned in GoT and not in his own category? If he is under Ned, then it is implied by that placement that he is one of Ned's children.

Without getting tedious and checking each book individually, Clash of Kings sums it up in straightforward fashion. Jon appears twice:

King in the North: Robb Stark, Lord of Winterfell and King in the North, eldest son of Eddard Stark, Lord of Winterfell, and Lady Catelyn of House Tully...

- his half brother, Jon Snow...

The Men of the Night's Watch: Jeor Mormont, Lord Commander of the Night's Watch...

- his steward and squire, Jon Snow, the bastard of Winterfell.

As Jon Snow is definitely not Catelyn Tully's son, I think we can safely conclude its "canon" he is the bastard son of Eddard Stark

[mrazny]

He probably is listed under Ned. Haven't checked. But the point is, that's where he should be since the 'truth' in that moment is that he is Ned's bastard. It's the exact same thing as listing Sandor Clegane as 'presumed dead'. It's not to throw readers off, it's because that is the known truth in that moment. To be honest, these are clues to the reader, if anything.

This is why I wouldn't call it "misleading" for the Appendix to say 6,000 years if its eggregiously wrong. It's the accepted "truth" of Westeros of the time.

[nanother]

The point which was actually being made was that he was shocked by the fact the dead were walking; by contrast the fact that there were white shadows in the woods wasn't being connected with the Long Night, just as he earlier didn't connect the reports of white walkers on the shore near Eastwatch.

Oh, he did. Two snippets from his conversation with Tyrion:

Mormont reached out and clutched Tyrion tightly by the hand. “You must make them understand.I tell you, my lord, the darkness is coming. There are wild things in the woods, direwolves and mammoths and snow bears the size of aurochs, and I have seen darker shapes in my dreams.

“In your dreams,” Tyrion echoed, thinking how badly he needed another strong drink.

Mormont was deaf to the edge in his voice. “The fisherfolk near Eastwatch have glimpsed white walkers on the shore.”

and

Winter is coming, and when the Long Night falls, only the Night’s Watch will stand between the realm and the darkness that sweeps from the north. The gods help us all if we are not ready.

This is before the wights. And he's not calm abut it at all. He's desperate. Throughout the whole conversation he seems to be almost in a trance, oblivious to anything but the matter at hand.

[greygnarl]

In AGOT he's listed under Ned as his bastard son.

However, everybody in Westeros besides Ned, Howland, and certain members of the Dayne household believe him to be anything but Ned's son.

[Black Crow]

Oh, he did. Two snippets from his conversation with Tyrion:

and

This is before the wights. And he's not calm abut it at all. He's desperate. Throughout the whole conversation he seems to be almost in a trance, oblivious to anything but the matter at hand.

He's certainly not a happy teddy. White shadows in the woods and whilte walkers on the shore are definitely not good news, but the point is that he doesn't connect them with the Others, or rather doesn't identify them as the Others appearing for the first time in 8,000 years - but in very marked contrast he does make that connection with the wights.