Catelyn's vow to Brienne

[MissLadyDuncan]

So I'm re-reading the series, trying to see what I missed. I came upon the part when Catelyn takes Brienne into her service in COK. Brienne swears loyalty basically and Catelyn accepts her oath by saying "And I vow that you shall always have a place by my hearth and meat and mead at my table, and pledge to ask no service of you that might bring you into dishonor. I swear it by the old gods and the new."

Basically the problem I'm having is that, the way i see it, Catelyn completely went against the vow of not bringing dishonor to Brienne by basically FORCING her to kill Jamie (or die, as well as watch Pod die with her). Jamie has helped Brienne now in more than one situation, even saving her life, wouldn't killing him be dishonorable? Personally, even though Jaime seems to have changed a bit in personality and seems to have in a way matured and grown up a bit, I still think he deserves to get his for killing Aerys, I just don't think Brienne should be the one doing it.

Also the fact that both the oaths (Brienne's to Catelyn's and Catelyn's to Brienne's ended with swearing them on the old gods and the new and Catelyn is going against this oath, could there somehow maybe be repercussions for Catelyn and the brotherhood now? Especially since Catelyn is supposedly raised back from the dead by some sort of God(s)?

[David Selig]

Nothing dishonorable about it, Jaime is a murderer, child killer, oathbreaker and a leader of the enemy force.

[MissLadyDuncan]

I agree that he needs to pay for his past crimes, which is why I think he should still be killed off, I just don't think Brienne should do it. Regardless of all the heidious things he's done, he was good to Brienne. He saved her life. Wouldn't killing someone who saved your life more than on one occasion be a bit dishonorable? Just my opinion here.

[Franz95]

Well... I don't think UnCat is exactly one to care for honor or vows. They hung (quote needed) Merrett Frey who was just ransoming Petyr. They just want to kill Freys and Lannisters, and about the gods, she swore "by the old gods and the new", were "new" stands for "the Seven". She was brought back to life by a priest of R'hllor, so from a theological point of view she has every right.

[Rolex Baratheon]

She isn't Catelyn anymore, she's Lady Stoneheart.

[A wilding]

Wouldn't killing someone who saved your life more than on one occasion be a bit dishonorable? Just my opinion here.

If you look at RL historical feudal/service/military honour systems, they are full of anecdotal cases of people who ended up honour bound to kill someone that they personally had good reasons not to want to harm.

There is a hint of at least one similar case in Westeros - the twins Ser Arryk and Ser Erryk.

[MissLadyDuncan]

I can understand where people see it as she's not really Catelyn anymore since the resurrection, but she remembers enough to realize that she knew Brienne and sent her on a mission. She remembers the events of the RW and she has a purpose of revenge (also she was only raised once whereas Beric was raised many times and remembered less with each resurrection, Catelyn hasn't gotten there yet. Also when I was reading it seemed to me that Beric was still "himself" in personality, and I think the same can be said for Catelyn, she's still Catelyn. I'm sure she remembers accepting Brienne's oath and the words that she spoke while accepting the oath.

In response to her also not being honorbound because R'holler is not part of the seven or the north gods, I actually see it differently, really this would probably belong in a different thread.. But I'm starting to think that all the religions stemmed from one (think back to the conversation in the house of black and white when Arya is told how people pray to the same (death) god who is known by many different names in different religions. Even the concept of the seven itself could be an example. One god, with seven aspects. I'm starting to think that all magic/religion in Ice and Fire stemmed from one source. The same can be said for many religions in the real world for instance the Abrahmic religions (Christianity, Judaism, Islam) all stemmed from the same source.

Also a lot of people seem to hate Jaime. I agree, he needs to be punished. But let's face it, he did almost a complete turnaround as the series progressed, especially after losing his sword hand, In his POVs after giving Catelyn an oath to never harm a Tully, he tried to the best of his ability to keep that oath, he's much less cocky and sure of himself (Payne can even beat him at swordplay now! I'm sure this damaged Jaime's ego a bit), and he is also starting to see Cersei for who she really is - he's changed, just like people change and grow in real life, Jaime has also changed.

I would like it if instead of killing Jaime or having Brienne kill Jamie, Stoneheart gives him a mission to redeem himself at least to redeem himself to Catelyn/Tullys/Starks, not a full redemption of course because that would be near impossible in Jaime's case.

[THE DOC]

It seems to me that when resurrected by Rh'llor the person resurrected sticks to one core principal and sticks to this no matter what even if it causes issues,breaks law in in some case becomes contradictory.

Lord Beric will serve the Kings Justice no matter what even putting his own men to death etc

Lady Stoneheart will stop at nothing for revenge on her family hence the want to destroy Frey and Lannister.

As always in ASOIF were the brotherhood now stands is a bit grey in my opinion only The Brotherhood under Beric Dondarrion became a Robin Hood type hero group to the small folk but now the faith and some of the holdfast lords from the war have returned to fill that vacuum the Brotherhood under stoneheart have feel into self preservation and the one thing keeping them together is the want and destruction stoneheart has for her foe's when she was Catleyan Stark.

I can actually see Stoneheart lurching to evil side of the coin and needing someone to pull her and the brother hood back to the good side of the coin,

[MissLadyDuncan]

I can actually see Stoneheart lurching to evil side of the coin and needing someone to pull her and the brother hood back to the good side of the coin,

I also think that's where Catelyn is heading, and I actually like Catelyn. Yes, she made mistakes but when you think about all she's been through and her love and need to keep her children safe, it's hard to really blame her. I would love if she were reunited with at least one of her kids. It bugs me to no end that all the Starks have split up for so long! I want some sort of reunion! Maybe if Stoneheart comes across Sansa or Rickon or Arya or someone, she'll snap out of it? I like to think that will happen anyway, but it's way too optimistic for Martin.

[David Selig]

I agree that he needs to pay for his past crimes, which is why I think he should still be killed off, I just don't think Brienne should do it. Regardless of all the heidious things he's done, he was good to Brienne. He saved her life. Wouldn't killing someone who saved your life more than on one occasion be a bit dishonorable? Just my opinion here.

I don't think the Westeros code of honor takes this into account, but we don't know for sure. But it has to be noted that Brienne herself didn't try to object that she can't do it because it's dishonorable.

[the Houndini]

So I'm re-reading the series, trying to see what I missed. I came upon the part when Catelyn takes Brienne into her service in COK. Brienne swears loyalty basically and Catelyn accepts her oath by saying "And I vow that you shall always have a place by my hearth and meat and mead at my table, and pledge to ask no service of you that might bring you into dishonor. I swear it by the old gods and the new."

Basically the problem I'm having is that, the way i see it, Catelyn completely went against the vow of not bringing dishonor to Brienne by basically FORCING her to kill Jamie (or die, as well as watch Pod die with her). Jamie has helped Brienne now in more than one situation, even saving her life, wouldn't killing him be dishonorable? Personally, even though Jaime seems to have changed a bit in personality and seems to have in a way matured and grown up a bit, I still think he deserves to get his for killing Aerys, I just don't think Brienne should be the one doing it.

Also the fact that both the oaths (Brienne's to Catelyn's and Catelyn's to Brienne's ended with swearing them on the old gods and the new and Catelyn is going against this oath, could there somehow maybe be repercussions for Catelyn and the brotherhood now? Especially since Catelyn is supposedly raised back from the dead by some sort of God(s)?

never thought of this before. but we dont know if vows taken in life are binding once dead and brought back to life. (a lot of people seem to think Jon will no longer be bound to his NW oaths if he is dead and resurrected.)

(Also do we know the actual words of the R'hllor prayer that brings people back to life? It may have some insight into this...)

And on another note Jamie does deserve to die in a traditional sense, but the punishment of losing his hand (and his entire identity) along with basically becoming a Stark sympathizer (he has no respect for his actual allies and seems to hold his enemies in high regard at this point) and now trying to protect any remaining Stark children, seems to be the truest form of poetic justice that exists.

Although we dont know the facts about the AA prophecy, the legend has AA needing to sacrifice those closest to them to forge the sword Lightbringer... So some sort of sacrifice between Jamie and Brienne is a looming possibility.

[The guy from the Vale]

never thought of this before. but we dont know if vows taken in life are binding once dead and brought back to life. (a lot of people seem to think Jon will no longer be bound to his NW oaths if he is dead and resurrected.)

(Also do we know the actual words of the R'hllor prayer that brings people back to life? It may have some insight into this...)

And on another note Jamie does deserve to die in a traditional sense, but the punishment of losing his hand (and his entire identity) along with basically becoming a Stark sympathizer (he has no respect for his actual allies and seems to hold his enemies in high regard at this point) and now trying to protect any remaining Stark children, seems to be the truest form of poetic justice that exists.

Although we dont know the facts about the AA prophecy, the legend has AA needing to sacrifice those closest to them to forge the sword Lightbringer... So some sort of sacrifice between Jamie and Brienne is a looming possibility.

The point with the Night's Watch vows is that they specifically end with the speaker's death; we have no such indication for the oath Catelyn swore to Brienne. Hence, while the Night's Watch vow might or might not end with the Watchman's death, Catelyn's vow is valid for all time.

[A wilding]

Jamie ... basically becoming a Stark sympathizer

I think saying that is somewhat of a stretch when he has been spending his time finishing off the final Stark resistance in the Riverlands, completing the reduction of the only other Great House allied with the Starks, and making absolutely sure Robb Stark has no heir.

Sending Ryman Frey home, telling Sybell Westerling she is a bitch, and sending Brienne on her hopeless quest (and partly for Brienne's own sake IMO) does not really make up for it. If he is to be judged, I think it needs to be by his actions, not be his thoughts.

Incidentally in her first AFfC chapter Brienne thinks that "no promise was so solemn as one sworn to the dead"

[Foxhound]

Well... I don't think UnCat is exactly one to care for honor or vows. They hung (quote needed) Merrett Frey who was just ransoming Petyr. They just want to kill Freys and Lannisters, and about the gods, she swore "by the old gods and the new", were "new" stands for "the Seven". She was brought back to life by a priest of R'hllor, so from a theological point of view she has every right.

They hung Merrett because he took part in the Red Wedding, which UnCat confirmed. She also knows anyone there was in on it (since all the good Freys were missing). I'm pretty sure all the Freys they've killed were connected the Red Wedding.

Anyway, Jaime broke his oath to Cat, and there's also the earlier business of throwing Bran out a window. UnCat is well within her rights to order Brienne to kill him.

[House Mauldania]

Jaime will choose to take the black

[Field of Asphodel]

I love Catelyn's oath, I noticed the phrasing right away, I think its one of her best moments in the series. I also think GRRM didn't write it that way by accident. GRRM has explored this issue of divided loyalties and obligations of knights a number of times, and always it's in the context of a knight who finds himself/herself in the position of doing something dishonorable for his liege lord because it's his/her duty. If any of the KG had pledged this oath, they could've argued their way out of beating Sansa, for example. I don't suppose that this version makes life less complicated, but it's a step toward preserving the dignity of the title/position of "knight."

Catelyn's acknowledgement of Brienne's honor says volumes about her, I think.

As far as how much of Catelyn is still retained within Stoneheart, I do not know. BUT...unlike Beric Dondarrion, Catelyn had been dead for several days before she was resurrected, and arguably insane in the moment that she was killed. Then there's the whole Red Wedding thing. Also, the fact that GRRM stopped writing Catelyn POV chapters after the Red Wedding confirms my feeling that Catelyn as we knew her, Catelyn as a character (versus a reanimated monster-shadow of her) is dead.

[camradio]

Cat went crazy, clawed her face apart, got killed and rose from the dead.... After all that I dont think anyone would be sticking to their words. Also like others have said all she cares about is revenge

[someonetyriondpayforsex]

We still don't know the word Brienne screams when she is being hanged. Maybe it is connected to Catelyn's oath in some way. Brienne's not dead yet but, well, in mid-air, so to speak.

[Knight ofthe Laughing Tree]

I love Catelyn's oath, I noticed the phrasing right away, I think its one of her best moments in the series. I also think GRRM didn't write it that way by accident. GRRM has explored this issue of divided loyalties and obligations of knights a number of times, and always it's in the context of a knight who finds himself/herself in the position of doing something dishonorable for his liege lord because it's his/her duty. If any of the KG had pledged this oath, they could've argued their way out of beating Sansa, for example. I don't suppose that this version makes life less complicated, but it's a step toward preserving the dignity of the title/position of "knight."

Catelyn's acknowledgement of Brienne's honor says volumes about her, I think.

As far as how much of Catelyn is still retained within Stoneheart, I do not know. BUT...unlike Beric Dondarrion, Catelyn had been dead for several days before she was resurrected, and arguably insane in the moment that she was killed. Then there's the whole Red Wedding thing. Also, the fact that GRRM stopped writing Catelyn POV chapters after the Red Wedding confirms my feeling that Catelyn as we knew her, Catelyn as a character (versus a reanimated monster-shadow of her) is dead.

Exactly. Cat is dead. She is Lady Stoneheart. Well said!

[Bayard]

We still don't know the word Brienne screams when she is being hanged. Maybe it is connected to Catelyn's oath in some way. Brienne's not dead yet but, well, in mid-air, so to speak.

I think GRRM confirmed it was sword.