From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa IX

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

I have to say that I really like the idea of Robert's wishes for a Baratheon/Stark link up happening between Mya Stone and Sansa. The close brotherhood they shared now finding a second life in a sisterhood of shared experiences and similar strengths. There's a theory that when Mya Stone finds out Alayne is engaged to HtH will become jealous and distant towards Sansa given her own disappointment with Mychel Redfort, but I've never been able to genuinely consider this as a credible possibility. What do you guys think? And I wonder if we'll meet this Mychel in the novel, or his wife Ysilla who's the daughter of Bronze Yohn. It could be an interesting opportunity for us to glean further insight into arranged marriages and the impact they have on the men as well as the women. It seems as though Mychel really did care for Mya afterall.

This thread has been moving quick like a bunny! :) I'm just catching up after a few days of too busy to be online, and really want a longer post to address some very interesting issues. But this one popped up so I'll respond.

Mya is one of my favorite minor characters. I just love her no-nonsense attitude, her business sense (she's got a really good living going - as I've said before, the Eyrie would not be able to function without her) and her bravery. I want so much to see her and Sansa become friends, because I think Mya would be a good and trustworthy friend (and what my mom would call "a good example") when Sansa has had so few trustworthy women friends near her age (Margaery sure as hell wasn't one!).

It occurs to me that the bastards are going to most likely be the ones to carry on the Baratheon line. Of the three Baratheon brothers, Stannis is the only one to have had an in-wedlock (I hate the word "legitimate") child, Shireen. Poor Shireen may not live to grow up and marry, and due to her disfigurement might well decide to become a septa if she does. Renly had no children and we know, and by now most of Westeros knows, that Robert's children with Cersei aren't really his. So that leaves Gendry, Mya, and Edric Storm (that we know of).

Is Sansa going to be in a position to get Mya (or, for that matter, Edric or Gendry) legitimized? Will Mya even want that - perhaps she will think there is more freedom in being a bastard and a businesswoman than a noblewoman who is comparatively more helpless and more beholden to men?

Regardless, I think Mya will be a wonderful example to Sansa in bravery and self-sufficiency. One big difference - and I think it matters - between Mya and someone like Margaery is that Mya is no-one's tool or pawn. Margaery had to dance to the Tyrell tune; earlier Cersei, for all her self-proclaimed power, had no choice but to do what Tywin wanted. (And I would argue that her lack of experience contributed to her abusing power in FFC.) Mya doesn't answer to anyone but Mya. Sure, she has to respect her social superiors and employers, but she is not beholden to a specific man in a specifically powerless context.

[brashcandy]

Regardless, I think Mya will be a wonderful example to Sansa in bravery and self-sufficiency. One big difference - and I think it matters - between Mya and someone like Margaery is that Mya is no-one's tool or pawn. Margaery had to dance to the Tyrell tune; earlier Cersei, for all her self-proclaimed power, had no choice but to do what Tywin wanted. (And I would argue that her lack of experience contributed to her abusing power in FFC.) Mya doesn't answer to anyone but Mya. Sure, she has to respect her social superiors and employers, but she is not beholden to a specific man in a specifically powerless context.

I agree with all this, but I have to wonder: does Mya's reluctance to get married again have more to do with her broken heart over Mychel Redfort than true disdain for the institution of marriage? I would argue that it is Sansa - having been pawn/prisoner - who truly doesn't desire the powerlessness that marriage can signify for a woman, but she's still interested in romance and love which Mya seems to be trying to bury within herself. How much of a challenge is Sansa going to face if she really intends to bring Mya and Lothor together?

[1234567]

Poor Mya. It will be interesting to see what happens if we meet Mychal and Ysilla. If it is an unhappy marriage where Ysilla is neglected and Mychal makes it obvious he does not care for her, it may entrench Sansa's views, or if it is happy then it may effect how see looks at Harry the Heir.

I see Myranda being more jealous than Mya, but I also see Sansa making it clear to them that she doesn't want to marry HtH. I think HtH's interactions with Sansa will be highly dependent on wether or not there are rumours that she is Sansa rather than Alyane.

Given the comments by Lysa about Sansa being the dwarf's leavings and a similar sort of attitude from the Tyrells, I wonder of Alayne will hear any unpleasant gossip about Sansa Stark in that vein?

[brashcandy]

Poor Mya. It will be interesting to see what happens if we meet Mychal and Ysilla. If it is an unhappy marriage where Ysilla is neglected and Mychal makes it obvious he does not care for her, it may entrench Sansa's views, or if it is happy then it may effect how see looks at Harry the Heir.

What I find really interesting in Sansa's perspective on the whole Mya/Mychel/Lothor affair is her pragmatic, yet productive approach. She realises quite rightly (as her mother did) the reasons why Mya wouldn't have been able to make a match with a noble man, but she's also paying attention to the option available for Mya in another man who might not be highborn or wealthy, but who could still support her and is loyal and honest in his own way. When you think about it, she would make an excellent ruler with these qualities. She's compassionate, but not a bleeding heart, and she has a firm grasp on the norms and codes in her society, but isn't afraid to challenge, get around them, or find solutions to problems. What bearing might this have on her relationship with Sandor?

[1234567]

What I find really interesting in Sansa's perspective on the whole Mya/Mychel/Lothor affair is her pragmatic, yet productive approach. She realises quite rightly (as her mother did) the reasons why Mya wouldn't have been able to make a match with a noble man, but she's also paying attention to the option available for Mya in another man who might not be highborn or wealthy, but who could still support her and is loyal and honest in his own way. When you think about it, she would make an excellent ruler with these qualities. She's compassionate, but not a bleeding heart, and she has a firm grasp on the norms and codes in her society, but isn't afraid to challenge, get around them, or find solutions to problems. What bearing might this have on her relationship with Sandor?

Excellent points. Hypothetically speaking, should Alayne meet up with Sandor and LF is disposed of and she remains hidden and Sandor is exonerated of the Saltpans (highly unlikely scenario), then it will still be apparent to her that a Stark of Winterfell is too highborn for a Clegane. Only by remaining Alyane and going to the Fingers could they remain together, or she could become Queen and have him as a guard paramour, which would be incredibly dangerous. I think it highly unlikely that they will end up together, although I do still hope.

However one of the many things that might backfire in regards to LF, is that he is putting the idea that it is okay to sleep with someone before marriage into her head and that the best match is an older man and younger woman: obviously with himself in mind. I do not think he has foreseen Sansa applying this wisdom to another man, which is what she may well do.

Also, while Sandor and Sansa are unlikely to end up together, the fact no one, including Dontos and LF and Tyrion knew of their conversations etc, does seem to foreshadow something. Knowledge is power and this is knowledge only the reader has.

[Pod The Impaler]

Is anyone else up for some new topics for us? I'd like to propose a few light questions to the group as a way to launch some new discussions while everyone works on their current male character analysis.

1. What is your favorite Sansa chapter and why?

2. What is your favorite Sansa scene and why?

3. What storyline for Sansa are you most looking forward to in WoW?

4. What is your favorite Sansa related crackpot theory?

Favourite Sansa chapter ? Like many I choose the one that goes from snow castle to moon door. So much happens in that one - so much in the way of exposition and revelations (and defenestration - har!). By the end, my jaw was on the floor.

Favourite Sansa scene ? When the Tyrells finally get her to speak the truth about Joffrey being a monster. It was just them looking for confirmation of what I'm sure they'd already heard, but their reaction is quite telling.

Most anticipated Sansa plotline ? If Brienne is alive, eventually she and Sansa will meet.

Crackpot stuff ? If she meets up with the mountain tribesmen, particularly Timmett. I think somehow this leads to the Hound, the ultimate "burned man".

Littlefinger's own "Sansa as heir to nearly everything" scheme is pretty crackpot stuff by itself.

[brashcandy]

Excellent points. Hypothetically speaking, should Alayne meet up with Sandor and LF is disposed of and she remains hidden and Sandor is exonerated of the Saltpans (highly unlikely scenario), then it will still be apparent to her that a Stark of Winterfell is too highborn for a Clegane. Only by remaining Alyane and going to the Fingers could they remain together, or she could become Queen and have him as a guard paramour, which would be incredibly dangerous. I think it highly unlikely that they will end up together, although I do still hope.

That's the thing. It's not like Sansa would have her head in the clouds about the probability of this relationship, right? When SR kisses her she thinks that no Tyrell would ever kiss Alayne, and then she begins thinking of Sandor and how he kissed her the night of the Blackwater. The thing is though, Sandor stepped outside of the social hierarchy with this action, but Sansa doesn't seem to reflect on that, or to censure his actions from this perspective. So is this telling us something?

However one of the many things that might backfire in regards to LF, is that he is putting the idea that it is okay to sleep with someone before marriage into her head and that the best match is an older man and younger woman: obviously with himself in mind. I do not think he has foreseen Sansa applying this wisdom to another man, which is what she may well do.

Oh yes. I do think LF is in for the mother of all surprises.

Also, while Sandor and Sansa are unlikely to end up together, the fact no one, including Dontos and LF and Tyrion knew of their conversations etc, does seem to foreshadow something. Knowledge is power and this is knowledge only the reader has.

Yup. And this is just me crackpotting, but Sansa and Sandor's relationship takes place within the confines of the Red Keep - in the heart of the enemy camp. In order to have access to her, LF has to arrange meetings in the godswood. Now, could the fact that Sansa and Sandor manage to "work" on the inside foreshadow similar success in a future romance? As in they won't need to run away, or have secret identities etc etc, but will be functional and accepted within Westerosi society.

[Gobiel]

Sandor didn't kiss Sansa on the BW.

[brashcandy]

Sandor didn't kiss Sansa on the BW.

Whatchu talking bout, Gobiel? :P

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

It occurs to me that the bastards are going to most likely be the ones to carry on the Baratheon line. Of the three Baratheon brothers, Stannis is the only one to have had an in-wedlock (I hate the word "legitimate") child, Shireen. Poor Shireen may not live to grow up and marry, and due to her disfigurement might well decide to become a septa if she does. Renly had no children and we know, and by now most of Westeros knows, that Robert's children with Cersei aren't really his. So that leaves Gendry, Mya, and Edric Storm (that we know of).

I doubt this. If Shireen dies, and Stannis dies without another child, the Baratheon line will end. Only Dany and Aegon would not screw themselves by legitimizing them. And why would they? They could simply hand the Stormlands to one of their followers. Maybe Edric Storm would have enough popularity to be made a Lord of the Stormlands, but I think that was mainly the castellian.

I would have a a violent physical reaction if Gendry became Lord of Storm's End. Though most "good" Gendry endings would provoke such a reaction (like Gendry/Arya).

On a side note, I don't think there is any indication Shireen is particularly religious and if she was, it would be be for R'Hollor in all likelihood. So, I can't see her becoming a Septa. Even with her disfigurement, she would not be unmarriageable.

Sandor didn't kiss Sansa on the BW.

OK. My favorite crackpot is the Sandor did kiss her. She just didn't process it until later.

[Kittykatknits]

This is nice :) I've never really stopped to think about my favourites...

1. My favourite chapter is the one where she runs into Sandor in the serpentine steps. The dialogue is so beautiful and your analysis of it is sooooooo niiiiiice!

I'm glad you like it. :) I think it's a great example of the type of work needed to fully understand Sansa's chapters as well as the impact of the POV structure on us as readers. With Sansa, she is such an internal character that much of her action is very of a blink and you miss it. So much is just an off-hand phrase or only a line or two, even those things that should be a Very Big Deal. It's like the bruises in her opening chapter in Clash. She never tells us this, but if you add up all the clues, you realize exactly what happens when Sansa tries to "do something". She's smarter than that as she is figuring out how to please him, and even better, how to play him. The only other person we know of that had any real success doing this is LF.

2. My favorite Sansa scene is probably the Hand's tourney. All the things she witnesses, Sansa's first cold facade moment (not flinching when the knight is killed in front of her), her struggle with what to do later at the feast, her turnaround by Joffrey (he acts nice to her at dinner but when she asks for an escort back to the castle, he doesn't do it etc), her story time with Sandor which was a very emotional moment.

Did you happen to see a post I wrote up on the red flower symbolism from the tourney? We had some great discussion on it. I'll dig it up if you want to read it.

Most anticipated Sansa plotline ? If Brienne is alive, eventually she and Sansa will meet.

Crackpot stuff ? If she meets up with the mountain tribesmen, particularly Timmett. I think somehow this leads to the Hound, the ultimate "burned man".

I like your crackpot. I've wondered before if Brienne will ever find Sansa, it seems like it might fit with the tragedy of Brienne's storyline. Having said that, I really, really want to be wrong.

I doubt this. If Shireen dies, and Stannis dies without another child, the Baratheon line will end. Only Dany and Aegon would not screw themselves by legitimizing them. And why would they? They could simply hand the Stormlands to one of their followers. Maybe Edric Storm would have enough popularity to be made a Lord of the Stormlands, but I think that was mainly the castellian.

I would have a a violent physical reaction if Gendry became Lord of Storm's End. Though most "good" Gendry endings would provoke such a reaction (like Gendry/Arya).

On a side note, I don't think there is any indication Shireen is particularly religious and if she was, it would be be for R'Hollor in all likelihood. So, I can't see her becoming a Septa. Even with her disfigurement, she would not be unmarriageable.

OK. My favorite crackpot is the Sandor did kiss her. She just didn't process it until later.

It's possible I'm misremembering this but I'm almost positive I read an interview with GRRM at one point where he stated that it is likely some Houses will die out before the end of the series. I remember thinking that Baratheon was very likely for this. It's just Stannis and Shireen at this point and I think there is a good chance both will die before the end of the series. The idea that Gendry will be made the Lord of Storm's End seems like fan fulfillment with nothing to foreshadow this. If he has a further role in the story, I think it will have something to do with forging a sword or the BWB. Edric Storm is the bigger possibility but that doesn't make it likely to happen.

If either Dany or Aegon take the IT, why would they want to legitimatize a member of the House that they believe stole the throne from them? If it is Stannis on the throne, it's likely that one of the bastards does not need to be legitimized.

Also, I fully accept your crack pot theory.

[Caro99]

I agree with all this, but I have to wonder: does Mya's reluctance to get married again have more to do with her broken heart over Mychel Redfort than true disdain for the institution of marriage? I would argue that it is Sansa - having been pawn/prisoner - who truly doesn't desire the powerlessness that marriage can signify for a woman, but she's still interested in romance and love which Mya seems to be trying to bury within herself. How much of a challenge is Sansa going to face if she really intends to bring Mya and Lothor together?

i think that mya had her heart broken first and then she started gaining disdain for social structures and the whole institution of marriage. When we first meet Mya, Cat notes that Mya seems to be confident she will be Mychel's wife, so maybe that's important for the future in relation to her friendship with sansa? it's sad that mya has so far closed her heart, but a good reason for sansa to befriend her would be because they would both be teaching each other useful things: sanas can show mya that it is okay to dare find happiness in life with someone and the example of lothor and mya could show sansa that to have a man who is strong, kind, loyal, even if he isn't the most handsome of fellows, is worth fighting for.

Brash:

“That's the thing. It's not like Sansa would have her head in the clouds about the probability of this relationship, right? When SR kisses her she thinks that no Tyrell would ever kiss Alayne, and then she begins thinking of Sandor and how he kissed her the night of the Blackwater. The thing is though, Sandor stepped outside of the social hierarchy with this action, but Sansa doesn't seem to reflect on that, or to censure his actions from this perspective. So is this telling us something”

This is going to be crackpot and my attempt at trying to assure myself once again that Sansa & Sandor could have a future together: J Maybe after the war social norms will not be of such importance (both because a lot of women may end up in positions of power, allowing others for the first time to take more liberties in their “political” and love life; and because after the war as everybody recovers the first thing on their minds won’t be if Sansa Stark decides to not marry anyone at present). Since I am not so sure Bran as Lord of Winterfell would allow it (and he may very well remain a tree) then Rickon could give the Dreadfort to Sansa and then Sandor can come with her. There for a time they might not need to hide their affair. It would only be later on if Sansa started getting marriage proposals that things would get trickier. Of course I would rather they just got married after the war and both had become mature enough to be in a relationship, but since we can’t be sure that will be happening…

[brashcandy]

I wonder just how apocalyptic Martin plans to be with the threat of the Others because I think it has bearing on their relationship. Sansa could forge her freedom in a post-w5k environment, but it might require her to remain as Alayne Stone. If the devastation of the Others is serious enough however, then birthright and social standing and all that becomes negligible. What matters is having strong unions that can begin the process of rebuilding, and healing the ravaged land. This is where the personal needs to be highly valued, because it's the only way one would form strong political ties once more. A happy, productive relationship regardless of social status might actually be encouraged and nurtured.

[Kittykatknits]

I wonder just how apocalyptic Martin plans to be with the threat of the Others because I think it has bearing on their relationship. Sansa could forge her freedom in a post-w5k environment, but it might require her to remain as Alayne Stone. If the devastation of the Others is serious enough however, then birthright and social standing and all that becomes negligible. What matters is having strong unions that can begin the process of rebuilding, and healing the ravaged land. This is where the personal needs to be highly valued, because it's the only way one would form strong political ties once more. A happy, productive relationship regardless of social status might actually be encouraged and nurtured.

Love this conversation and want to add more but it will have to wait until later. But, I'm hoping we get something pretty close to apocalyptic. I'm a sucker for zombie movies and games along with anything post-apocalyptic. I'll be really disappointed if no one ever learns about the threat from the Others while continuing to play the game of thrones.

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

I'm not sure Sansa and Sandor is that big of a difference. At least not now that Gregor is (almost certainly) dead. Sandor is a lord. Considering northerners thought a marriage to a Stark was possible in several cases, I don't see Great House-regulare House combo as a huge deal.

[brashcandy]

Thanks for that reminder Lord Bronn :)

[Kittykatknits]

I'm not sure Sansa and Sandor is that big of a difference. At least not now that Gregor is (almost certainly) dead. Sandor is a lord. Considering northerners thought a marriage to a Stark was possible in several cases, I don't see Great House-regulare House combo as a huge deal.

I like this.

Thanks for that reminder Lord Bronn :)

OT: Out of curiosity, who is in your avater? I'm guessing it is olympics related?

[kislio]

I'm not sure Sansa and Sandor is that big of a difference. At least not now that Gregor is (almost certainly) dead. Sandor is a lord. Considering northerners thought a marriage to a Stark was possible in several cases, I don't see Great House-regulare House combo as a huge deal.

I just feel the need to point out that he isn't actually a lord--his family was one of landed knights, not lords.

[Lady Lea]

I'm not sure Sansa and Sandor is that big of a difference. At least not now that Gregor is (almost certainly) dead. Sandor is a lord. Considering northerners thought a marriage to a Stark was possible in several cases, I don't see Great House-regulare House combo as a huge deal.

Ah but the Cleganes are like the Slynts, except after two generations. Sandor's grandfather was a kennelmaster. He got a little keep and title but he's still a glorified peasant, like Slynt who was a butcher's (was it a butcher's?) son and rose to lord. Basically House Clegane is an upstart house, and if the Westerlings were considered to have "questionable blood", imagine what they'd say about them... Sansa on the other hand has the blood of kings, comes from a line 8.000 years old.

Now, for a bastard girl like Alayne, even the Cleganes would be a huge social improvement.

[TNine]

While the Others is an apocalyptic scenario, i don't think its correct to lump it in with Zombie or Nuclear apocalypses that would make Sansa's birthright negligible. The Others' stresses won't break society into an anarchy, and since this is an actual invading force it may strengthen the infrastructure as all conflict is focused outwards.

I also think that in a war against the Others, the name Stark holds a LOT of weight, even moreso than most of the other Great Houses. The Starks led the war in the first invasion, did they not?