From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa IX

[ARYa_Nym]

ETA: Arya had to dress like a boy or she would have been raped. Hot Pie didn't have to worry about that. How is her gender not in play for her?

This reminds me of comparisons of how one sister would do in the others' shoes. It has been said that Arya benefited from looking like a boy and Sansa could not do that. Someone said that Arya's story is not realistic because she should have been raped and murdered already.

Yoren just thinks that little boys can't be raped but that's not true. Arya was around pedophiles like Rorge and Septon Utt who would touch little boys. Human traffickers pick up little boys and girls IRL. It's just plot armor that she wasn't raped.

ARYa_Nym, if I were to start an Arya re-read, would you be interested? It would involve a chapter-by-chapter in-dpeth analysis of her chapters.

IDK because I didn't really like the premise when people first started asking for a reread.

[1234567]

In either a younger queen thread or something else it was said that Arya has already lost her innoncence. Someone said that if Sansa will become the younger queen hopefully Arya can kill Tommen and Myrcella so Sansa doesn't have anything to do with it.

Oh dear god that's awful. I haven't seen that.

People think that she's damaged and broken because she kills people if you read the damaged and psychopath threads. They say that Uncat has more humanity in her than Arya does.

Double awful.

I just got the impression from Sansa Rethinking II that it was being said that she's not badass because of how killing and war has effected her character and Arya fans don't understand her character. Neither is Sandor then.

I can't speak for others, but I certainly have expressed the view that I find it sad how a lot of posters revel in Arya's ability to kill without emotion and enjoy the direction her character has gone. I don't find it badass I find it sad. She is however capable of actions that could be described as badass. To compare to Sandor, if he had been a child POV from before his burn: you have a little boy who loves knights and chivalry etc, very like Bran, who is then horribly disfigured and I defended by his father, then has to run away at 11 to start serving the Lannisters. There he is taught to be a brutal killing machine. This is also tragic and sad; he becomes a broken man with no joy or hope. However he does also perform "badass actions".

In a Jon and Sansa thread and a Sansa helpless thread it was said that Arya is not a true Stark because she murders people. When I brought up male Starks who liked killing and were morally grey like Brandon Stark and the Kings of Winter it was said that they don't care about them. These same people like Sansa.

I certainly think if we are equating true Stark to Ned, then No, Arya is not very like Ned. She is a lot more like Cat at times in temperament. Sansa and Jon started off as being the most like Ned IMHO. Often this was a debate in response to people who said Sansa is not a true Stark (a view I see a lot, and didn't realise was also used for Arya too). If we take the Starks and include Benjen, Brandon, Lyanna and Rickard, then we see a greater idea of what it is to be a Stark and all the Stark kids have these mixed qualities. In fact I believe that Lyanna was very much a mix of Arya and Sansa's characteristics.

Maybe you haven't been in much Arya threads but the effects of how she's living now does get discussed. It may not be the focus of thread unless it's the Hiding Needle, Damaged, or Psychopath centered thread but it's often said that she has no place after the fighting is done. She is the Frodo of the story. She's going to die because because of her path.

EDIT: There are actually 2 Arya will die threads. & one about how young she is to be killing people.

Dear God! I haven't been into the Arya threads mainly because in the past there was a lot of Sansa hate there. This was a while ago though. I can see the point that slipping back into the normal Westerosi life would be difficult for her after what she has been through, but to a certain extent that is true of Sansa, Bran and Dany as well.

These post exist. Plus, it's often said in here how Sansa is better because she's realistic and Arya is so unrealistic because she tries to be like a man. Most people call Arya cliche and typical. In Rethinking II it was said that fans are manipulated to like her because she's such a typical character.

I certainly think Sansa is a more realistic character than Arya, but not because Arya tries to be like a man, but because of the "magical ninja assassin" storyline. Sansa could be a character from historical fiction, while Sansa is more in the realms of fantasy literature. But the same is true of lots of characters: Tyrion (fantasy character) Jaime (Historical fiction), Ned (Historical fiction), Dany (fantasy fiction) etc. they are all on a scale between high fantasy and historical fiction. The lack of the five year gap has a lot to answer for in this respect.

It has been talked about in these thread and the women threads how women who act like men are unsuccessful and put themselves in danger. Lyanna, Brienne, Danny Flint, Pretty Meris, etc. & it was also said that they don't want power for themselves and don't challenge patriarchy the way feminine women do. Feminine women try to take control over their life and want to decide who they will marry like Sansa and Cersei.

I've not been able to catch-up with that thread.

[HopeForSpring]

That is the tricky thing - why is it a "benefit" to look like a boy and a "hinderance" to look like a girl... or vice versa depending on your point of view? It can only be contextual. It is useful to be able choose to look like what is expected.

Arya didn't have that luxury in Winterfell, she couldn't play the part of "Happy Maiden" as well as Sansa. It was so sad she was so picked on. It was useful to Arya (plot armour aside) to be able to pull off being a boy on the road in a way that Sansa probably couldn't have (horses being icky and all).

It is a benefit to Sansa that she can conform to expectations on the outside while she plots with Dontos on the inside. It is a benefit to Sansa that she is pretty so she can wile Joff occasionally. Brianne can tell you looking the way a girl is supposed to look is a big deal. However, is pretty a benefit outside of KL when she starts to become the target of advances? Just like a sword - only if she has the skill to use it and prevent it from being turned back on herself. Septa Mordane was her Syrio in some ways.

I don't think either of them has the "better nobler path" actually. I think they are different. I'm glad we have both.

ETA: I would join a reread thread but I would be scared that it would be hard to keep it nuanced. I'm in awe of this thread's ability to avoid trolls. An Arya thread would need equal troll-fu.

[ARYa_Nym]

I can't speak for others, but I certainly have expressed the view that I find it sad how a lot of posters revel in Arya's ability to kill without emotion and enjoy the direction her character has gone. I don't find it badass I find it sad. She is however capable of actions that could be described as badass. To compare to Sandor, if he had been a child POV from before his burn: you have a little boy who loves knights and chivalry etc, very like Bran, who is then horribly disfigured and I defended by his father, then has to run away at 11 to start serving the Lannisters. There he is taught to be a brutal killing machine. This is also tragic and sad; he becomes a broken man with no joy or hope. However he does also perform "badass actions".

The reason why Sandor gets on badass lists is because he's been a killing machine and has been so almost all his life. We know that his life of killing has troubled him so maybe it should start to be questioned why his fans see him as a badass. A lot of people want him to go and fight Robert Strong still.

I certainly think if we are equating true Stark to Ned, then No, Arya is not very like Ned. She is a lot more like Cat at times in temperament. Sansa and Jon started off as being the most like Ned IMHO. Often this was a debate in response to people who said Sansa is not a true Stark (a view I see a lot, and didn't realise was also used for Arya too). If we take the Starks and include Benjen, Brandon, Lyanna and Rickard, then we see a greater idea of what it is to be a Stark and all the Stark kids have these mixed qualities. In fact I believe that Lyanna was very much a mix of Arya and Sansa's characteristics.

Most of the fandom thinks that the Starks are the good guys. They need to be morally good for a lot of people. The textual evidence of the Kings of Winter was ignored by the masses for a long time. It's only recently that some are starting to pay attention to things like the Rape of the Sisters.

Sansa is mainly the one who gets called not a true Stark. When Arya has been accused of this it was more about the fact that she kills people rather than her comparatively being like Ned or Catelyn as opposed to Sansa.

.

Dear God! I haven't been into the Arya threads mainly because in the past there was a lot of Sansa hate there. This was a while ago though. I can see the point that slipping back into the normal Westerosi life would be difficult for her after what she has been through, but to a certain extent that is true of Sansa, Bran and Dany as well.

I certainly think Sansa is a more realistic character than Arya, but not because Arya tries to be like a man, but because of the "magical ninja assassin" storyline. Sansa could be a character from historical fiction, while Sansa is more in the realms of fantasy literature. But the same is true of lots of characters: Tyrion (fantasy character) Jaime (Historical fiction), Ned (Historical fiction), Dany (fantasy fiction) etc. they are all on a scale between high fantasy and historical fiction. The lack of the five year gap has a lot to answer for in this respect.

I've not been able to catch-up with that thread.

If you read the too young to be killing people thread it was talked about how a lot of people call her story unrealistic because she's a child who kills men with a sword but that's the first thread like that.

http://asoiaf.wester...ssional-killer/

Sansa is more realistic but it's been said on here and on ONTD that people like Arya as opposed to Sansa because she acts like a man. & they shouldn't because it's not working well for Arya.

That is the tricky thing - why is it a "benefit" to look like a boy and a "hinderance" to look like a girl... or vice versa depending on your point of view? It can only be contextual. It is useful to be able choose to look like what is expected.

Arya didn't have that luxury in Winterfell, she couldn't play the part of "Happy Maiden" as well as Sansa. It was so sad she was so picked on. It was useful to Arya (plot armour aside) to be able to pull off being a boy on the road in a way that Sansa probably couldn't have (horses being icky and all).

It is a benefit to Sansa that she can conform to expectations on the outside while she plots with Dontos on the inside. It is a benefit to Sansa that she is pretty so she can wile Joff occasionally. Brianne can tell you looking the way a girl is supposed to look is a big deal. However, is pretty a benefit outside of KL when she starts to become the target of advances? Just like a sword - only if she has the skill to use it and prevent it from being turned back on herself. Septa Mordane was her Syrio in some ways.

I don't think either of them has the "better nobler path" actually. I think they are different. I'm glad we have both.

ETA: I would join a reread thread but I would be scared that it would be hard to keep it nuanced. I'm in awe of this thread's ability to avoid trolls. An Arya thread would need equal troll-fu.

I think being pretty and feminine has hindered and helped her. People want to save the damsel like Sandor. She's seen of value but then can also be exploited by people like LF. If she was plain or ugly she might not have been saved but then she might not have been exploited so much.

[1234567]

ETA: I would join a reread thread but I would be scared that it would be hard to keep it nuanced. I'm in awe of this thread's ability to avoid trolls. An Arya thread would need equal troll-fu.

Oh there were some. The Report button became a good friend for a while as did the "This thread is not just a generic thread, but a systematic re-read is Sansa etc etc"

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

1. You weren't claiming that but if you read the threads where she's called damaged and psychotic/sociopath that is what is brought up.

2. Well, being a warrior is what most men are expected to do so we are naturally going to see a lot of them already be killers but when a little girl starts doing it then people start saying that she needs to be put down like a dog. It has been said in one of the reread threads before by someone that Arya fails because she is not feminine and tries to put herself in an arena where she can't compete. Men are physically stronger than her and are meant to be killers/warriors.

3. We did get Jon's first kill and his loss of innocence but he's not a murderer. 4. We've experienced Tyrion becoming a murderer and possibly raping on his own without there being the added factor of child abuse.

5. Theon I wouldn't exactly call innocent but we learned what he was capable of when he killed the Miller's boys without expressing much remorse. He does get called broken because of the Reek treatment obviously but plenty now for some reason think that things are looking up for Theon. I'm skeptical that he would have been called damaged without the Reek treatment though.

6. Dany doesn't get called damaged and broken to my knowledge. She does get called the new Mad Queen but this has more to do with her having supposed Targaryen symptoms and her increasing paranoia.

7. & to add on to my earlier comment about what was said in here about Arya failing this could be why some want Arya to kill LF for Sansa. Sansa is apparently how a woman should be. Arya is incorrect. It's not natural for a woman not to be innocent and to be a murderer. That's what men do. Since Arya is already damaged she should kill for her sister.

1. OK. I admit, I have not seen these Threads, so I could be totally wrong. I was just thinking of alternatives.

2. I vaguely remember someone saying something like that when I was first on the boards (a little before and after ADWD). Like I said, some certainly are basing their view on gender. But I'm not sure all are. But as I just said, I have no evidence backing up since I haven't read any Thread like for a long time, so I'll just concede the point.

I find the matters of strength just funny. Arya is learninga style that specifically doesn't rely on strength.

3. Jon was basically an adult in that society, so I personally have a hard time seeing him as innocent. Maybe a little naive, not on the same level his younger siblings or even Dany from GoT. Of course, this is a highly subjective view. I understand why you and others would see differently.

4. Tyrion was not innocent at the start of GoT. He might not have murdered anyone yet, but he had done some awful stuff (even if the worst was because of his dad's manipulation, he was still a willing participate in his teenage wife's rape).

5. Would it be weird if I said I did? Maybe I wouldn't use "damaged," but I pitied for Theon all throughout his CoK storyline. He was basically a good guy. Yet, he felt he had no choice to do more and more horrible things. It was sad. Filled with a brief, "Theon on the Wall!" joy. And then.... yeah.

6. Words are different, but I wondered if the root cause (either of our explanations) was the same. Again, just throwing it out there. It was not a serious effort to link the two trains of thoughts.

DISCLAIMER: I am not a Dany fan and often take the she's becoming mad Targ line. I'm not exactly a hater, but her story has had some lull parts and her refusal to listen that Ned wasn't a bad guy concerns me. I'll become a fan again if she learns to not auto-hate the people who overthrew her family (or at least their families now). Though I'll still support Stannis for the throne.

7. I can't see it. Sansa is Ned Stark's daughter. If she passes judgement on Littlefinger, she'll carry out the sentence. Of course, I want Littlefinger executed. Not assassinated.

Also, there is a lot more going on with Val than what meets the eye, not even just from a character point of view--she knows things that she shouldn't, she predicts actions with impossible levels of accuracy, she seems to be leading you on all of the time. Val definitely is hiding something, most likely greensight or something along those lines.

Interesting. Maybe, I'll have to give her a relook. I just had a hard time after she called for the execution of Shireen (I've posted other places why it's absurd that the wildlings would know more about greyscale than maesters with the exception that there is a strain of greyscale North of the Wall that acts like Val said).

8. People think that she's damaged and broken because she kills people if you read the damaged and psychopath threads. They say that Uncat has more humanity in her than Arya does.

9. In the damaged thread it was said that this is a story without redemption and Arya needs to suffer the consequences for being a murderer. Well then so should the male characters who have done the same as her.

8. If I was drinking something, I think I would have spit all over my computer when I read this.

9. That's just wrong. It's clear that she's on the way to forgiving Sandor at the of ASOS. Also, despite everything, the Faceless Men are teaching her not to kill for hate which is a good thing for her. It's clear that she's on the path to NOT become a monster, but a warrior.

EDIT: Some things were written while I was writing.

ETA: Maybe we will need to rethink Little Finger, what was he supposed to do, just stay home in his sheep tower and be a good little minor man? Do we owe LF an apology for hating (speaking for myself here) him?

No. I totally respect Littlefinger for getting as high as he is. But he has clearly shown an utter lack of human empathy.

This reminds me of comparisons of how one sister would do in the others' shoes. It has been said that Arya benefited from looking like a boy and Sansa could not do that. Someone said that Arya's story is not realistic because she should have been raped and murdered already.

Yoren just thinks that little boys can't be raped but that's not true. Arya was around pedophiles like Rorge and Septon Utt who would touch little boys. Human traffickers pick up little boys and girls IRL. It's just plot armor that she wasn't raped.

I'm confused. Are you saying it was plot armor or were other people?

Either way, I disagree. While the threat of rape was real, not everyone gets raped.

[ARYa_Nym]

2. I vaguely remember someone saying something like that when I was first on the boards (a little before and after ADWD). Like I said, some certainly are basing their view on gender. But I'm not sure all are. But as I just said, I have no evidence backing up since I haven't read any Thread like for a long time, so I'll just concede the point.

I find the matters of strength just funny. Arya is learninga style that specifically doesn't rely on strength.

4. Tyrion was not innocent at the start of GoT. He might not have murdered anyone yet, but he had done some awful stuff (even if the worst was because of his dad's manipulation, he was still a willing participate in his teenage wife's rape).

5. Would it be weird if I said I did? Maybe I wouldn't use "damaged," but I pitied for Theon all throughout his CoK storyline. He was basically a good guy. Yet, he felt he had no choice to do more and more horrible things. It was sad. Filled with a brief, "Theon on the Wall!" joy. And then.... yeah.

7. I can't see it. Sansa is Ned Stark's daughter. If she passes judgement on Littlefinger, she'll carry out the sentence. Of course, I want Littlefinger executed. Not assassinated.

I'm confused. Are you saying it was plot armor or were other people?

Either way, I disagree. While the threat of rape was real, not everyone gets raped.

2. I don't think it's all but many. IA with what you said on strength. It was talked about in the too young to kill thread on why people keep saying that she's unrealistic when the FM don't rely on her being able to have better combat skills than men.

4. Tyrion wasn't a child but we saw him getting more grey in the books and the end of ASoS to ADWD is when he went off the cliff.

5. It's not weird at all. I can sympathize with him on some level. I just cannot at the fact that that some can think that Arya is too damaged when Theon can't even walk or eat properly. Theon seems like a walking batshit corpse to me, (not his fault) but there are Theon the dragonslayer theories, Ramsay killing theories, AA theories, King of the Ironlands theories. Some may be right and of course there are some who think that he deserves death but I feel like it's mainly because he "betrayed the Starks".

7. That's what I was saying. If Sansa is the most Ned like then she has to kill herself. Ned scorned those who have people kill for them.

Rorge was gong to do it but stopped when she mentioned Jaqen.There's no guarantee that she would have been but I don't agree with the idea that she was safe because she looked like a boy and since Sansa could not do that she wouldn't have benefited like Arya. Even if Arya was a boy or Sansa had been a boy this still would have been a danger for them.

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

Rorge was gong to do it but stopped when she mentioned Jaqen.There's no guarantee that she would have been but I don't agree with the idea that she was safe because she looked like a boy and since Sansa could not do that she wouldn't have benefited like Arya. Even if Arya was a boy or Sansa had been a boy this still would have been a danger for them.

OK. I get what you're saying now. I can agree with that.

[Spiderweaves]

& to add on to my earlier comment about what was said in here about Arya failing this could be why some want Arya to kill LF for Sansa. Sansa is apparently how a woman should be. Arya is incorrect. It's not natural for a woman not to be innocent and to be a murderer. That's what men do. Since Arya is already damaged she should kill for her sister.

ARYa_Nym, I think here is where I got the idea that you were suggesting that some readers think Arya's "broken" because she doesn't live up to gender norms. We might just be experiencing the words "broken" and "damaged" differently.

I would hope you would participate in an Arya re-read thread or a re-read thread that focuses on Sansa and Arya together. I catch so many nuances about all of these characters from threads of that type. And there's something very compelling about watching these two young women negotiate ideas of femininity in the way that they do.

[ARYa_Nym]

ARYa_Nym, I think here is where I got the idea that you were suggesting that some readers think Arya's "broken" because she doesn't live up to gender norms. We might just be experiencing the words "broken" and "damaged" differently.

I would hope you would participate in an Arya re-read thread or a re-read thread that focuses on Sansa and Arya together. I catch so many nuances about all of these characters from threads of that type. And there's something very compelling about watching these two young women negotiate ideas of femininity in the way that they do.

It's not because of how she fails at her gender role but that she's a killer/murderer. You can read the thread where it's a focus topic for yourself.

It's not a conscious critique that people are associating killing with men except for that one comment about her not being able to compete. I'm illustrating the possibility of an underlying bias.

There are Sansa and Arya threads. You can read the reconcile thread and someone recently started a thread on how their arcs are similar.

[HopeForSpring]

Hey ARYa_Nym,

What is your goal from this dialog? To opine the existence of Arya hate (or simply simplisticness) in general and seek solace among the PtP crowd? To suggest that the PtP threads are Arya-fan unfriendly or insensitive? To simply have a place to discuss Arya that seems a bit more rational than other places on the forums? To have a real Arya vs Sansa analysis?

I'm feeling a lot of what you are saying but I'm wondering what itch you are trying to scratch since I'm starting to see a bunch of repetition, but that you don't seem to be sated. Also you are referencing a lot of other threads that are super relevant to what you are saying, so why not take this conversation to them? Trolls? What aren't you hearing that you want to hear reflected back to you? What is the resolution of this for you?

Do you have a sense of where you are going with this or are you just emoting. Totally cool - I'm just not getting a sense of analytical movement and am wondering what I'm missing.

Sorry!

[TNine]

I think that there is a false equivelency of "Arya killed someone, but how does that make her worse than Sandor, who also killed someone"

There is a massive difference in the deaths depending on the "how" and "why". Jon executes people to stay in control of the wall, Dany kills people to free slaves, soldiers kill people when they follow orders. Arya murders people, on her own volition, because she thinks they deserve to die, for vengeance. Basically, she's killing people for fulfillment. Other characters kill people as a means to an end, while, for Arya, killing people is the end, and by AFFC for her life is the means to that end.

And there is a difference between an execution, a duel to the death, and a murder. If someone was swinging an axe at me, i would have no qualms about sticking a sword in their gut--that doesn't make me a psychopath. An execution is similar, but still different. It is done for duty, there is a certain detachment to it, and it is ultimately "justified"--you look at the person you are killing and say "you must die because you did this". Meanwhile, Arya kills people without really thinking much about it at all, and if she does think about it, it is generally apathetically, or even with pleasure at the thought.

Also, Arya killed people when she was very young, even by Westerosi standards. Boys tend to become squires at 12 or 13, but they generally don't see combat, and if they do they are not the ones killing people (and, once again, killing someone in pitched battle is different). Gregor, Sandor, Bronn (maybe it was just show!Bronn) are all considered particularly ruthless because they had killed someone by 12, Arya killed someone when she was 9. Look at the reaction that Ned (the squire from the BWB) gave when Arya asked if he had killed anyone--he was shocked by the prospect since he was so young (and still much older than Arya).

Though, to be honest, look at her escape from Harrenhal at the end of ACOK

Cursing her softly, the man went to a knee to grope for the coin in the dirt and there was his neck right in front of her. Arya slid her dagger out and drew it across his throat, as smooth as summer silk. His blood covered her hands in a hot gush and he tried to shout but there was blood in his mouth as well.

“Valar morghulis,” she whispered as he died.

When he stopped moving, she picked up the coin. Outside the walls of Harrenhal, a wolf howled long and loud. She lifted the bar, set it aside, and pulled open the heavy oak door. By the time Hot Pie and Gendry came up with the horses, the rain was falling hard. “You killed him!” Hot Pie gasped.

“What did you think I would do?” Her fingers were sticky with blood, and the smell was making her mare skittish. It’s no matter, she thought, swinging up into the saddle. The rain will wash them clean again.

You can not tell me that she is not exhibiting sociopathic tendencies here.

[brashcandy]

The reason why Sandor gets on badass lists is because he's been a killing machine and has been so almost all his life. We know that his life of killing has troubled him so maybe it should start to be questioned why his fans see him as a badass. A lot of people want him to go and fight Robert Strong still.

He does typically 'badass' actions that's why and he's credited as being a "badass" by many other characters within the text. HOWEVER, Sandor is subjected and has been subjected to many many many critiques which go beneath the Hound persona into the trauma that Sandor is suffering from. I don't know that people want him to fight RS because he's a badass necessarily, but because they want him to finally get vengeance on his brother.

Most of the fandom thinks that the Starks are the good guys. They need to be morally good for a lot of people. The textual evidence of the Kings of Winter was ignored by the masses for a long time. It's only recently that some are starting to pay attention to things like the Rape of the Sisters.

Well yes, even Martin thinks the Starks are heroes, and collectively speaking I would agree. However, this isn't to say that we can't critique the Starks individually or that there's some essential "Starkness" that equates to honour and fair play.

If you read the too young to be killing people thread it was talked about how a lot of people call her story unrealistic because she's a child who kills men with a sword but that's the first thread like that.

http://asoiaf.wester...ssional-killer/

Sansa is more realistic but it's been said on here and on ONTD that people like Arya as opposed to Sansa because she acts like a man. & they shouldn't because it's not working well for Arya.

With all due respect, I'm a bit tired of hearing about what people say. People say a whole heck of shit. It's not possible to explain or defend all the comments about Arya. It would be useful to concentrate on what we're saying right now.

I think being pretty and feminine has hindered and helped her. People want to save the damsel like Sandor. She's seen of value but then can also be exploited by people like LF. If she was plain or ugly she might not have been saved but then she might not have been exploited so much.

If Sansa didn't have the skills she had she would not have survived. Sandor assists her somewhat, but she's been largely responsible for taking care of herself through her own talents and determination.

[HopeForSpring]

Okay - so at TNine is one of the folks the ARYa_Nym is talking about and she's here ;)

I don't think Arya is a sociopath, but I'd rather talk about that on an Arya thread, you know? I'm still new, though is this typical?

How Arya and Sansa have different experience of what it means to be a girl/woman in Westeros, I would talk about here. I'm sorry I'm just loosing track of the point of this as it relates to Sansa: Pawn to Player. I'm sure it can somehow... Bring that home ARYa_Nym, bring it home!

[HopeForSpring]

He does typically 'badass' actions that's why and he's credited as being a "badass" by many other characters within the text. HOWEVER, Sandor is subjected and has been subjected to many many many critiques which go beneath the Hound persona into the trauma that Sandor is suffering from. I don't know that people want him to fight RS because he's a badass necessarily, but because they want him to finally get vengeance on his brother.

I know I'm probably somewhat alone on this, but I kind of feel a level of resolution for him on the QI. Let him be beyond the violence now. Namaste, Sandor. Be at peace. He's earned it.

If Sansa didn't have the skills she had she would not have survived. Sandor assists her somewhat, but she's been largely responsible for taking care of herself through her own talents and determination.

I think Sansa has skills, but she has different skills. I think it would be ridiculous for Sansa to be called in to triumph in a sword fight. I wouldn't go anywhere in Westeros without an armed guard, personally. CEO's do it all the time - recruit people to their cause with skills the CEO doesn't have. Saying Sansa elicits* the protective instinct in others who can fight with swords doesn't mean she's not fully competent as a person. (think Dany/Mormont, too, and guys have to do it, too - Tyrion/Bronn, Little Finger/Lothar, Tywinn/Gregor)

ETA: I specifically use "elicits" rather than "solicits" because I don't think it is conscious/completely voluntary on her part.

[brashcandy]

Okay - so at TNine is one of the folks the ARYa_Nym is talking about and she's here ;)

I don't think Arya is a sociopath, but I'd rather talk about that on an Arya thread, you know? I'm still new, though is this typical?

How Arya and Sansa have different experience of what it means to be a girl/woman in Westeros, I would talk about here. I'm sorry I'm just loosing track of the point of this as it relates to Sansa: Pawn to Player. I'm sure it can somehow... Bring that home ARYa_Nym, bring it home!

It is a bit off topic, but I've allowed it because it fits into the larger discussion on women, double standards and prejudices etc, and Sansa and Arya as sisters are often contrasted with each other. However, I'm becoming lost as to what Arya_Nym's essential point is. The PtP threads have always been sympathetic to Arya, and I resent the implication that our call for a reread came from some negative premise. When I say Arya needs a reread it's because her character and her motivations - good/bad/in between- aren't fully appreciated by readers, not to prove that Sansa is somehow better than Arya. We've all seen how beneficial re-reads can be, and I think Arya merits a comprehensive one.

[ARYa_Nym]

Hey ARYa_Nym,

What is your goal from this dialog? To opine the existence of Arya hate (or simply simplisticness) in general and seek solace among the PtP crowd? To suggest that the PtP threads are Arya-fan unfriendly or insensitive? To simply have a place to discuss Arya that seems a bit more rational than other places on the forums? To have a real Arya vs Sansa analysis?

I'm feeling a lot of what you are saying but I'm wondering what itch you are trying to scratch since I'm starting to see a bunch of repetition, but that you don't seem to be sated. Also you are referencing a lot of other threads that are super relevant to what you are saying, so why not take this conversation to them? Trolls? What aren't you hearing that you want to hear reflected back to you? What is the resolution of this for you?

Do you have a sense of where you are going with this or are you just emoting. Totally cool - I'm just not getting a sense of analytical movement and am wondering what I'm missing.

Sorry!

The badass argument, feminine vs. warrior women challenging patriarchy and wanting power, shallow reading started in here and carried over into other threads.

EDIT: I didn't participate in the threads then so I did not discuss it but the comparison of Arya to Sandor and Sansa a few pages back reminded me of it.

With all due respect, I'm a bit tired of hearing about what people say. People say a whole heck of shit. It's not possible to explain or defend all the comments about Arya. It would be useful to concentrate on what we're saying right now.

When the talk first started about a need for a reread was in response to a discussion of the fandom seeing what Arya is as right and what Sansa does as wrong and that she was liked because she takes on masculine traits and Sansa is criticized more harshly because she's feminine. Then on the next page was the patriarchy talk.

http://asoiaf.wester...i/page__st__120

If Sansa didn't have the skills she had she would not have survived. Sandor assists her somewhat, but she's been largely responsible for taking care of herself through her own talents and determination.

I was mostly referring to LF's motivations for wanting to get her away from KL which did save her at least for now. He easily discarded Jeyne Poole. There's also the matter of her name which also helps in his motivations.

Sandor does help her but there's a difference in his reaction to her and someone like Lollys who did not get helepd. She's his pretty little bird.

[brashcandy]

Ok I'm going to quote exactly what I said in Rethinking II and please clarify for me where the negative premise is:

Brilliant post Rapsie. I've said it before, but Arya is a character who is a badly in need of a re-read. So many of her actions and thoughts are taken as gospel and seen as "naturally" right, whereas Sansa is held up to critique after critique. People miss the similarities in the sisters' arcs, so whilst Arya is going through "kick-ass, awesome-cool" training with the FM, Sansa is being further exploited as a pawn of Littlefinger's. There's also little consideration of Arya's rebellion (she's not rebelling, she's just being cool, this is the way all girls should act!) in contrast to Sansa's conformity, and how there are both informed by gender roles and societal norms.

[mythsandstuff]

The badass argument, feminine vs. warrior women challenging patriarchy and wanting power, shallow reading started in here and carried over into other threads.

EDIT: I didn't participate in the threads then so I did not discuss it but the comparison of Arya to Sandor and Sansa a few pages back reminded me of it.

When the talk first started about a need for a reread was in response to a discussion of the fandom seeing what Arya is as right and what Sansa does as wrong and that she was liked because she takes on masculine traits and Sansa is criticized more harshly because she's feminine. Then on the next page was the patriarchy talk.

http://asoiaf.wester...i/page__st__120

I'm really interested in an Arya reread, but I hear what you're saying about needing it to be a reread that starts on Arya's terms, rather than the reader's (whether that be the psychopath thing, a likability index, gender norms, compare/contrast with Sansa, or whatever). So what's the starting point, and what's the appropriate way to approach these issues when they pop up (and they will pop up)?

[HopeForSpring]

Okay, there are plenty of people I may disagree with on this thread but "shallow" is not a charge I would level at the folks here.

I admit that I wasn't sure a non-SanSan shipper would be welcome, but boy have I been wrong. Thoughtful disagreements seem to be very welcome.

I think you may have missed an opportunity by coming in with a preconception about what this thread is like.* I almost did.

I have liked all the re-read threads I've seen that start from compassion but not delusion. That's a tough tone to create on a message board, but seems worth it. I'm so grateful to the curated threads (ETA) and would join one about Arya happily!

ETA * what the thread has been like recently, I clearly haven't been around as long as you and haven't back read.