From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa IX

[brashcandy]

Moto :bowdown:

:lol:

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

1. Tyrion is/was holding onto an unrealistic hope that she'll come around.

2. There is a rightful aversion to rape nowadays but look, we have to judge and consider Westerosi society, standards,and customs. The fact of the matter is he was a better guy than most of the other characters would have been, despite the outside pressure to impregnate her. So yeah I think it's worth noting.

3. Ya sure, he did it to save Joffrey and Cercei. Tyrion is also most likely the reason Sansa still has her maidenhood and even still alive. He saved the freakn' city. You don't wonder what would have happened to Sansa during the sack of KL? Even if she made it out of that unscathed somehow I don't see Stannis just releasing Sansa back to the usurper Robb Stark.

4. I'm sure they feel like free-birds.

5. Already discussed, There were no options surronding Sansa after Robb took Jamie, Tyrion shoulders approximately 6.2 % of the blame in this regard More blame goes to Sansa and Robb.

1. The question was for happy marriages. One person holding "delusional hope" is not a happy marriage in any shape or form. Fuck, it's not even a happy marriage for one of them.

2. And I agreed. But that doesn't mean I, or other Sansa fans, should be falling to our knees in Tyrion's kindness.

I should point out, boring-as-fuck ADWD chapters aside, I like Tyrion. I mean, I chose his henchmen for my screen name. But I don't think not raping his second wife is something that should be praised. Nor do I think Sansa should fall in love with him or return his feelings (not that he has much more than lust and hope for Tysha 2.0).

3. Regardless of his reasons, how is Sansa supposed to see it? He was a Lannister helping the Lannisters stay in power. And let's not kid ourselves, he may not like Cersei or Joffery, but at that time, he was a Lannister man to the bone.

As for Stannis, he would have treated her better and possibly hold negotiations. Regardless of whether Stannis was her salvation or not, the Lannisters are still her enemies.

4. Look, you want to argue arranged marriages suck? I will agree with you. But Sansa was a victim of emotional and physical abuse being forced to marry her one of her captors. It is not the same thing.

5. Wait. Sansa has more to do with it than Tyrion? Because he was absolutely powerless as the temp Hand compared to a prisoner?

Jamie being captured is the reason Sansa wasn't executed. Joffery wanted her dead after Robb had his victories.

Quite frankly a lot of the dislike surrounding Tyrion may have something to do with the fact that people supporting Tyrion tend to come up with all these reasons why he is good or non-reprehensible that involve throwing characters like Sansa under the bus.

I know what you mean. It's weird when I think about the actual books and show and remember I like that Tyrion, just not some of his *fanboys.

*Please note, while I often use fanboy in a positive sense, I mean it in a purely negative tone here.

6. Lady Candace I bring up Tyrion and Sandor because this is a Sansa Stark thread. It seems the majority of the clientele here are major Sandor apologists and some of the biggest Tyrion detractors. I like to play devils advocate in this regard.

Now, Tyrion is not a character without faults or without sin. But the flak that he recieves from people frankly makes no sense. I get it, 7. a number of the women on here see a bit of themselves in Sansa. They don't want to see this heroine end up with an ugly cynical dwarf who will use her for sex, political power, and doesn't even love her. On top of this, his bad deeds are harder to forgive because he is in direct contradiction with what Sansa fans want for her.

On the other hand you have this mysterious and misunderstood knight with a tough exterior and a hidden soft spot in his heart, He has often shielded our heroine and we think he loves her.

But put this aside for just a second and look at what our two characters have done in the novels. Tyrion has been nothing short of a hero on multiple levels where Sandor has been a cruel brute throughout the saga. I could list out the deeds but I think we have a good idea.

But clearly if you are a fan of Sansa the heroin you would find it much easier to forgive Sandor his faults than you might Tyrion's.

Yes it is silly and unnecessary. You're right they are very different people. But the thing is I always hear about Sansa's inner strength on this forum, and I would have wanted to see more of her strength in her actions.8. I was hoping Sansa would have been more active in trying to get out for one.

9. I hear this stuff about how much strength it took to deny Tyrion on the wedding night or to not kneel for Tyrion at the wedding. Quite simply I think that's complete garbage. I'm fine with her not wanting to kneel in silent protest but she took no risk with that play. The two people that might have wanted to hurt her, Joff and Cercei, are taking pleasure in Tyrion's embarrassment. On the wedding night she is sad but ready to spread her legs. And then when Tyrion says "hey we don't have to do this" and she says "hey we might never do this"...wow this Sansa Stark girl really showed him.

I loved when she scaled down the wall to escape the city. I loved when she spoke up for Dontos. I even thought it was kinda cool that she used so much courtesy she got under Cersei and Joffs skin. But there was not enough of that kind of stuff for me in the first 3 books.

10. I'm hardly throwing Sansa under the bus by pointing to a couple minor faults. But the pro Sansa stance that is being taken against Tyrion is ridiculous. I hold by my statement that most other Westerosi men with ambitions would have let Sansa be tortured more than she was, would have put a child in her belly, and would not have treated her as kindly as Tyrion did. I can't understand the hatred directed at him.

6. Which is a problem. In their relationships with Sansa, Sandor is probably at his best while Tyrion is not.

7. A) We're not all women

B) Many people like a character like a character because s/he is badass, not because of identification. This explains my love of Bronn and Sansa (two different kinds of badass of course).

8. Ummm... how? She is thirteen year-old girl with no training or knowledge or friends that would helps her to escape.

9. Stockholm Syndrome. It would have been so easy for Sansa to "love" Tyrion since he was the nice one. But she kept her identity.

She wasn't badass because she stopped Tyrion from having sex with her. She was bad ass because she told him she would never accept him. She would never stop being Sansa Stark.

10. You claimed that a prisoner had more to do with her own imprisonment than one of the most powerful men in the kingdom. I don't know what that is if it's not throwing her under the bus.

Even getting to the stage recently where Tyrion was held up as supporting a native oppressed community against invaders when the Vale Clans and arming them was brought up ( which has no textual support whatsoever).

Hey, I think I started that bit. To be fair, it was to counter the (also no objective textual support) idea that the Vale Lords were good guys and the clans were bad guys when in reality both sides have plenty of rights to claim victims and crutelities.

[Kittykatknits]

I think it is no win for the women of Westeros. Either they are "badass" in a male way and therefore broken or they operate within gender norms and are some how "less strong." Classic dilema.

Yes, I agree. The recent conversation about both Arya and Sansa really seems to prove this doesn't it? Neither conform to a narrowly defined gender definition and receive criticism for it. It also seems that Arya received less criticism when she was a more stereotypical tomboy while Sansa is more highly regarded when she begins to buck gender norms within Westeros.

Someone asked earlier if Sansa is more 'bird-like' or more 'wolf-ish'.......why can't she be both? There is even that fantastical rumour about her after the PW in which she is referred to as a 'winged wolf'. Given the Lady/Sandor/wolf-in-the-wind element and all of the references to flying or birds in Sansa's storyline, I have to think there are elements of both within her. The canine/wolf is her totemic/family animal and one that perhaps has been lying in wait for a time, but is steadily arising. The bird I see as more a personal symbol for Sansa, especially because a bird can be quite vulnerable and powerless when its wings are clipped or if it is kept locked in a cage. But when it is set free, or finds its way out, it gains so much power and importantly.....freedom. Also, there are many types of birds (corvids, swans, waterfowl, birds of prey, etc.) not just silly talking birds from the Summer Isles. :)

As soon as I read the first part of your post, I was immediately reminded of LF who has his family sigil and then took the mockingbird as his personal sigil yet he seems to have traits of both. It's much the same with Sansa isn't it?

I agree about the different type of birds, not just the pretty little talking birds from the Summer Isles. That type of bird is small and delicate, you keep it in a cage. There is a bird local to where I live called the Osprey which reminds me of Sansa a bit. They are incredibly beautiful and graceful when they fly, mate for life, fiercely protective of their young with both parents taking a role in care giving, white with a bit of grey in them, and fierce fighters when they need to be.

re: Ryan Seacrest

(I promised not to talk about her Lannister marraige, so I'll be talking about Ryan Seacrest instead, because of the striking similarities): Ryan may have redeeming qualities, but I don't care. It's too late for that. He's been forced on America unfairly, in the worst of ways and at the worst of times (replacing Dick Clark on the New Years Eve show like an ambulance chaser who shoves other hosts into an open grave while they're still breathing. Winning the lottery to be American Idol host who got to say whatever and ascend to totally undeserved godhood. And so on.) Then when I turned on the olympics and saw he was part of the broadcast, that was THE FINAL INDIGNITY in a long process of me building up hatred for him. I can't take that guy any more, in any capacity. If you defended Seacrest to me by telling me the story of how he really did earn a niche in radio and TV by being an excellent entertainer, I'm not going to listen. I'm just going to shudder in disgust. .....So too was Tyrion the final indignity forced on Sansa in a long process of building resentment. So Tyrion could have been Jesus and still would have had no chance of growing anything positive out of the horrible soil that marraige was planted in. By then the situation was so shot to shit that it doesn't matter whether he acted equitably. Defending the man at that point is pointless, because the unforgivable offense was the ROLE that he played, not the person that he was. Male readers see that Tyrion was forced into an arranged marraige too, and when we see people championing Sansa we're tempted to try and defend Tyr similarly. (What was he going to do? go against a dead-set Twyin on this? run away in the night? that wouldn't have ended well). But male readers have the luxury of reading that part of the series and only stopping for a moment to say "Ugh!" to ourselves before moving on, whereas female readers are naturally going to carry with them a more lasting impression of how horrible it would be to have to endure that series of events. This is why I believe we so often talk past each other on the matter of the nuptials, just like how Seacrest's fans don't seem to understand the horror (the horror!) of America's forced marraige to Seacrest.

Thank you.

Epic, I am without words. :bowdown:

Related to today's discussion, I think this highlights the need for a Sansa FAQ as we had discussed earlier. This thread has moved so fast that it feel to the wayside.

[Candor]

I agree :) I've always liked that fantastical story of her escape from KL, and Sansa being the winged wolf is a great symbol of freedom and strength all in one. There's also the story she reads to SR called the Winged Knight and this is where it gets interesting in the realm of crackpot:

The Eyrie - called a castle of snow by Sansa on her descent in AFFC - is perched atop the Giant's lance. Might we see a similar flight by Sansa to kill a certain giant?

Interesting, to kill a Griffin King. Aegon? I don't think Connington is going to last that long.

In any event, good catch with the winged wolf.

1. She could have held her tongue with Cercei in GOT

2. She could have gone with the Hound in ACOK

3. She could have held her tongue with LF about the Tyrell plot.

4. Anywhere along the way she could have tried to gain confidants

5. Anywhere along the way she could have looked into escaping.

6. It was just blah for most of the way, waiting to be rescued like a damsel in distress and then balking at the few opportunities that came around.

I'm sorry I don't remember her chapters well enough to give yous specific example of her passiveness in the first 3 books. I get that she is young, naive, and doing a pretty fine job surviving some horrible circumstances. But I also think it's a stretch to say that she has moved from being a pawn to a player.

7. I don't dislike her because he has a good heart. But I think women have the right to expect more of their heroine.

1. She was an emotional little girl, quite a bit more naive at the time, and she thought she was going ot leave her "crush". Girls will get distressed over those things. Maybe not Arya, but Sansa? yes. If she had known where the action would end up, I guarantee she would have kept quiet.

2. A drunk man pushes you on the bed, snarls at you, and asks you to leave in the middle of a raging battle where you know (from being with Cersei earlier - when she ordered guards to put down deserters) that those who leave, get killed. Does that honestly seem like the best option?

3. How should she know to?

4. See below

5. As my fellow sisters have said better than I, Sansa didn't exactly have times that she could do that, but when she did, she did something about it - clothes smuggling, going along with Dontos, carrying a knife out to the wood, etc.

6. She took the legitimate opportunities, but maybe you'd have to re-read when you have some time and really take a look to see. But here we come to the general response, and I hate to generalize, but typically from male readers (except Lord Bronn of course :thumbsup:), "blah." The fantasy genre is normally rife with characters who are active as opposed to passive. They take charge, they go out ther, and they do. They don't spend time weighing it in their mind. They speak up, or the fight, etc, they don't keep their resistance to a bad situation inside. A lot of other genres however, factor more on passive characters, whose thoughts are emotions are the bulk of their role in a story. Sansa is one of those characters, but GRRM has put her into a high-octane fantasy world. I'm saddened but not surprised that she gets the response she tends to. She's in the wrong genre to get much appreciation.

7. I am perfectly fine with Sansa as my heroine, and I think she has quite exceeded my expectations. :commie:

[HopeForSpring]

Re Ryan Seacrest, I wish I had been drinking something so I could have snarffed. It totally deserved a snarf. LOL

And MT is a female-style badass. So is her Gram. They cloak themselves in ostensibly kind and soft and courtly behavior and plot. Typically quite well, although MT seems to be the black window of Westeros and will probably end up dead for her ambitions. Sigh.

And I would be down with Sansa directly poisoning Little Finger one day... while making eye contact... but that isn't my nobler side :) I'm sure LF would really suffer more if she pulled more of a Wesley in Princes Bride and let him live a long life alone with his cowardice. That would be pretty bad-ass too.

[Kittykatknits]

I don't dislike her because he has a good heart. But I think women have the right to expect more of their heroine.

I've been thinking about this since I first read it and I really disagree.There is more than one way to be heroic, you don't need swords or magic. I admire Sansa for her strong sense of self, she never lost sense of identity or who she was, even when a name was forced on her. I'm in awe of the fact that she managed to not only keep but further develop her sense of empathy and compassion. It's an incredibly rare trait in ASOIAF and Sansa consistently employs both with nothing to gain.I can't speak for the rest of the world, but IMO, America is not a particularly empathetic country so I enjoy reading about a heroine who makes this character trait a strength. Sansa also possesses amazing self-discipline, she kept up her courtesy armor and used it as both a shield and weapon the entire time she was in KL. If you think about it a moment, Sansa was literally playing a part on acting for every single moment. I don't think most adults could do this, including myself.

Personally, I think it's rather disappointing that these aspects of Sansa are not more culturally accepted as being heroic or admirable. Instead, for some reason, we choose to dismiss it as "passive".

[Elba the Intoner]

Mother of the Others - OMG!! I will never look at Ryan Seacrest the same way again (and I love your Avatar too ;-))

OK, I really want to add more but I just don't have the time right now. It's hard even keeping up with reading this as this time of year my kids are home and we go down the Shore and don't have great internet service.

Also, quickly, @ Hope for Spring, maybe Sansa will get Sandor to fight LF "to the pain" ;-)

ETA @ Kittykatknits re:

"Personally, I think it's rather disappointing that these aspects of Sansa are not more culturally accepted as being heroic or admirable. Instead, for some reason, we choose to dismiss it as "passive".

I agree!

[Kittykatknits]

Also, quickly, @ Hope for Spring, maybe Sansa will get Sandor to fight LF "to the pain" ;-)

OMG! Princess Bride! Now I want this so bad, please make it happen.

[HopeForSpring]

For the Younglings:

To the Pain.

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=I_keWS1i3RA

(But maybe, the heck with calling in someone else, she does it herself... "Maybe I'm playing along because I lack the strength the way everyone think I does... but then again...")

[Elba the Intoner]

"Miserable vomitous mass" has to be the best insult ever!!!

By the way Princess Bride fans, has no one noticed my signature? I have to learn how to link to it.

[1234567]

<snip Seacrest snip>

He also supported and helped the mockney annoyance Jaime Oliver on to American TV screens......He was Britain's shame and should have stayed that way.

[Kittykatknits]

"Miserable vomitous mass" has to be the best insult ever!!!

By the way Princess Bride fans, has no one noticed my signature? I have to learn how to link to it.

That settles it, after seeing that youtube video, I need to watch this movie tonight.

[Candor]

Lol, now you have all put me in a mood for TPB, thanks xD Luckily I saw it when I was sorting through my DVD''s, so it's possible to fulfill the need to watch it.

I've been thinking about this since I first read it and I really disagree.There is more than one way to be heroic, you don't need swords or magic. I admire Sansa for her strong sense of self, she never lost sense of identity or who she was, even when a name was forced on her. I'm in awe of the fact that she managed to not only keep but further develop her sense of empathy and compassion. It's an incredibly rare trait in ASOIAF and Sansa consistently employs both with nothing to gain.I can't speak for the rest of the world, but IMO, America is not a particularly empathetic country so I enjoy reading about a heroine who makes this character trait a strength. Sansa also possesses amazing self-discipline, she kept up her courtesy armor and used it as both a shield and weapon the entire time she was in KL. If you think about it a moment, Sansa was literally playing a part on acting for every single moment. I don't think most adults could do this, including myself.

Personally, I think it's rather disappointing that these aspects of Sansa are not more culturally accepted as being heroic or admirable. Instead, for some reason, we choose to dismiss it as "passive".

As Gannicus has pointed out, some of us identify with Sansa. I personally do with the acts she had to put on, which is reminscent of an unfortunate personal time in my life. And, I would just like to say that I hate it even more when these acts by Sansa are not appreciated, surprise surprise, because I had to do them too, and they were not easy to maintain.

Empathy is a beautiful thing - go Sansa!

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

I've been thinking about this since I first read it and I really disagree.There is more than one way to be heroic, you don't need swords or magic. I admire Sansa for her strong sense of self, she never lost sense of identity or who she was, even when a name was forced on her. I'm in awe of the fact that she managed to not only keep but further develop her sense of empathy and compassion. It's an incredibly rare trait in ASOIAF and Sansa consistently employs both with nothing to gain.I can't speak for the rest of the world, but IMO, America is not a particularly empathetic country so I enjoy reading about a heroine who makes this character trait a strength. Sansa also possesses amazing self-discipline, she kept up her courtesy armor and used it as both a shield and weapon the entire time she was in KL. If you think about it a moment, Sansa was literally playing a part on acting for every single moment. I don't think most adults could do this, including myself.

Personally, I think it's rather disappointing that these aspects of Sansa are not more culturally accepted as being heroic or admirable. Instead, for some reason, we choose to dismiss it as "passive".

I think this is where Sansa gets over looked and her badassness goes unnoticed. Honestly, I liked her character but didn't recognize her strength until her wedding night. Her refusing to bow to Tyrion made me see it. I felt bad for Tyrion, but my respect for Sansa grew immensely, and I looked back and realized how awesome she was. She walked a tightrope around people who wanted her dead, faced beatings at random, threats of rape (considering Joffery, it was only a matter of time before they were no longer threats), she had no friends, no support. Honestly, this would break most people. Yet, she stood strong and took whatever defiance she could against House Lannister. She may be forced to marry Tyrion, but she would not lower her dignity and bow to see her Stark cloak replaced with a Lannister cloak.

[Ragnorak]

So I was think about the quote from earlier

The stone was cold beneath her feet, and the wind was blowing fiercely, as it always did up here, but the view made her forget all that for half a heart-beat. Maiden's was the easternmost of the Eyrie's seven slender towers, so she had the Vale before her, its forests and rivers and fields all hazy in the morning light. The way the sun was hitting the moutnains made them look like solid gold.

So lovely. The snow clad summit of the Giant's Lance loomed above her, an immensity of stone and ice that dwarfed the castle perched upon its shoulder. Icicles twenty feet long draped the lip of the precipice where Alyssa's Tears fell in summer. A falcon soared above the frozen waterfall, blue wings spread wide against the morning sky. Would that I had wings as well.

The writing and imagery really is So lovely. Since I just reread the Snow Castle chapter three times the beauty and eloquence of that chapter's writing are fresh in my mind. Is this unique, or at least far more prevalent, to Sansa's chapters? I remember Jon and Bran having some nice imagery when they first go north of the Wall, but I can't specifically recall anything else. Maybe Arianne in Dorne while stealing Myrcella or Doran in the Water Gardens? Does Sansa hold a monopoly on Martin's poetic passages?

[Kittykatknits]

I think this is where Sansa gets over looked and her badassness goes unnoticed. Honestly, I liked her character but didn't recognize her strength until her wedding night. Her refusing to bow to Tyrion made me see it. I felt bad for Tyrion, but my respect for Sansa grew immensely, and I looked back and realized how awesome she was. She walked a tightrope around people who wanted her dead, faced beatings at random, threats of rape (considering Joffery, it was only a matter of time before they were no longer threats), she had no friends, no support. Honestly, this would break most people. Yet, she stood strong and took whatever defiance she could against House Lannister. She may be forced to marry Tyrion, but she would not lower her dignity and bow to see her Stark cloak replaced with a Lannister cloak.

Yes, I agree. I didn't see her strength the first time around I am ashamed to admit. I pulled all-nighters in an effort to find out what would happen next. The result is that I completely failed at taking in to account the POV structure of the books and took way to much at face value which is embarrassing as I normally consider myself to be a more critical reader. It took a re-read for me to begin questioning what I was seeing and to realize that a character's thoughts are merely opinions, not fact. This led to a huge reevaluation of Sansa as character and quickly made her my favorite in the series. The scene where she asked for mercy for her father and her empathy for Sandor really stood out to be in GOT. I think she's a unique character, not just in fantasy but much of fiction, and does not get much of the credit she deserves because of it.

[ARYa_Nym]

Just ignore those silly 'badass' threads. Arya is an awesome layered character (as you have proven very well many a time! :) ) and so is Sandor. That's all that matters. :)

Some of it is from Sansa Rethinking II and III. Especially II. It was said that Arya needs a reread because fans superficially read her character and see what she does it right because GRRM writes her as a cool tomboy assassin.

It started because some said that fans falsely equate the way Arya fights as right when it should be Sansa. Fans shouldn't see Arya as badass because she's essentially a child soldier. I don't read these same complaints about male characters who have done the same as her. I think it's fine to prefer Sansa but to me when we start talking about how Arya is a broken mentally damaged little girl who is tragic and probably beyond redemption it makes me think about how they don't think that either Jaime or Sandor are too damaged or psychotic.

& the OP for the Arya is damaged thread participated in here and went back in here and it was talked about how Arya fans see nothing wrong with Arya going on killing people and some said how her arc should be more about tries to fit or not fit in her gender role instead of what she's doing now.

[Caro99]

Aww the princess bride! <3 it is one of those stories in which i much prefer the movie than the book & i can totally see sansa doing the whole posion westley thing with LF with the hairnet.. well maybe it would be alayne the one who did this (westley was under the dreadful pirate roberts name at the time)..

there were sooo many important things disscused today! the whole discussion about tyrion/sandor and sansa-tyrion-wedding night choice has already been discussed and the thread has moved past that so i'll just say one little thing regarding tyrion for what it's worth: sure he didn't write the letters to the freys and to roose about the RW, but he did married sansa with the knowledge and concent that if her family died then he would be able to claim winterfell and he sort of tried to delude himself for the present that sansa might one day bring him her lust and heart and stuff- but why would she when she would still be a pawn and maybe disposed off by tywin once she gave birth to tyrion's children? and how could he think (if he ever pondered about it that much) that sansa would come to care for him as they lived in winterfell after his family destroyed hers..? after the wedding he doesn't mention going winterfell with her; he talks about essos and the rock, but it was a little naive to hope she could warm up to him for the mere reason of him showing her relatively more kindness than other members of his family...

- about sansa being a bird or a wolf: she is both! i wanted to express my thoughts better along with addressing some of the other issues that were talked about today here but i've just started college and i have zero energy to muster at the moment some good rational thoughts...

but since everybody has been doing pretty well today i'll just sit back & read on :D

[brashcandy]

Does Sansa hold a monopoly on Martin's poetic passages?

She might. I think it's a reflection of Sansa's nature as well. She's very attuned to beautiful scenes, and often seems overwhelmed by her surroundings and at times to fall into a kind of rapture like the one we saw in the Eyrie's garden.

[brashcandy]

Some of it is from Sansa Rethinking II and III. Especially II. It was said that Arya needs a reread because fans superficially read her character and see what she does it right because GRRM writes her as a cool tomboy assassin.

It started because some said that fans falsely equate the way Arya fights as right when it should be Sansa. Fans shouldn't see Arya as badass because she's essentially a child soldier. I don't read these same complaints about male characters who have done the same as her. I think it's fine to prefer Sansa but to me when we start talking about how Arya is a broken mentally damaged little girl who is tragic and probably beyond redemption it makes me think about how they don't think that either Jaime or Sandor are too damaged or psychotic.

& the OP for the Arya is damaged thread participated in here and went back in here and it was talked about how Arya fans see nothing wrong with Arya going on killing people and some said how her arc should be more about tries to fit or not fit in her gender role instead of what she's doing now.

I think Arya does a reread, badly. You're one of the few people who attempt to subject her arc to any critical analysis, Arya_Nym. Mostly, she is viewed as the cool bad ass type who had to put up with an annoying sister in Sansa. I don't consider Arya as irretrievably damaged by any means, but there does need to be a serious discussion on Arya the character, instead of Arya the archetype, and how she fits into the larger framework of a discussion on women and gender roles within Westerosi society,