From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa IX

[Lady Lea]

Quite frankly a lot of the dislike surrounding Tyrion may have something to do with the fact that people supporting Tyrion tend to come up with all these reasons why he is good or non-reprehensible that involve throwing characters like Sansa under the bus.

I actually quite liked Tyrion until half-way into ACOK, then I didn't but he was still interesting.

It was coming in this forum and seeing people call him a "hero" which made me detest him. Go ahead and say he's witty and that he has done some good things, but in the end of the day Tyrion is one of the villains - in GRRM's own word, "the grayest of the gray". He had a singer killed and fed to peasants, he burned people's houses down and didn't care what happened to them, he killed a prostitute, he raped a woman, he killed his father, he wants to rape his sister, he forcicly married a 13-year-old, he killed the Antler Men, he muses about starting a civil war in Westeros so his niece (who was only ever nice to him) is killed...

[Gobiel]

I actually quite liked Tyrion until half-way into ACOK, then I didn't but he was still interesting.

It was coming in this forum and seeing people call him a "hero" which made me detest him. Go ahead and say he's witty and that he has done some good things, but in the end of the day Tyrion is one of the villains - in GRRM's own word, "the grayest of the gray". He had a singer killed and fed to peasants, he burned people's houses down and didn't care what happened to them, he killed a prostitute, he raped a woman, he killed his father, he wants to rape his sister, he forcicly married a 13-year-old, he killed the Antler Men, he muses about starting a civil war in Westeros so his niece (who was only ever nice to him) is killed...

About the burning of the houses: you know, when there isn't already food for the people, and there is the safety of the city to consider... this is war and this is siegecraft. There are priorities, and having them housed isn't quite at the top of the list. To consider, there is the part where he stops the construction of defenses begun by Cersei for the fishing.

He killed what prostitute ? If you talk about Shae, well, it isn't like she lied during the trial, and went extra dumb like 'my giant of lannister' when he came to kill Tywin.

He raped whom ?

Even his father was always like 'you are not my son', perhaps it's true ?

He wants to rape his sister... He also wants to kill her, for what it's worth.

Hadn't he been married to Sansa, it could have gone much more awry for her.

He wants to kill Cersei for vengeance. Why, even Arianne tried to start that war (she was kind to her too, but she gave an ear for that kindness anyway), and Tyrion thought of it as a possibility, but it is Tyrion who is darker for it.

I don't recall who are the Antler Men.

About the singer: he didn't want to reiter the error he had done by sending Slynt to the Wall. The soup given to the inhabitants is just a casualty of it, adivised by Bronn, the beloved sellsword.

He isn't a hero, he is kind of that rotten onion fact Melisandre had told to Davos, but he is closer to our standards than the rest of his siblings (no incest, no beating) while still regarding to the interest of Lannister family.

[brashcandy]

OK! Let's get back on topic folks. Tyrion is not excluded from discussion in this thread, but the back and forth arguments relating to his treatment of Sansa and his status as a villain should be done elsewhere.

[1234567]

Indeed the argument has been had and will continue to be had elsewhere.

Going back to the present situation in the Vale and the Sansa / Alayne dynamic, it might be interesting to contrast how both Stark girls have worn aliases since AGOT and how they contrast with one another.

While Sansa was known as Sansa Stark in KL, she had to learn how to hide her feelings and watch her words, meaning that from an outside perspective there is an invisible mask covering who she is inside to other people. Arya has worn a different name and gender which have exposed her to physical harms but allowing her to still essentially express herself as Arya Stark would have done. By AFFC the girls seem to have reversed roles and now more of the inner Sansa personality can safely be expressed. Is Alayne, while Arya Stark has to be concealed beneath No One.

[brashcandy]

Indeed the argument has been had and will continue to be had elsewhere.

Going back to the present situation in the Vale and the Sansa / Alayne dynamic, it might be interesting to contrast how both Stark girls have worn aliases since AGOT and how they contrast with one another.

While Sansa was known as Sansa Stark in KL, she had to learn how to hide her feelings and watch her words, meaning that from an outside perspective there is an invisible mask covering who she is inside to other people. Arya has worn a different name and gender which have exposed her to physical harms but allowing her to still essentially express herself as Arya Stark would have done. By AFFC the girls seem to have reversed roles and now more of the inner Sansa personality can safely be expressed. Is Alayne, while Arya Stark has to be concealed beneath No One.

Great point Rapsie. I don't know if Sansa's full personality is quite appreciated due to the role she has to play for the majority of her time in KL. She becomes withdrawn and morose, has to dampen her spirits and learn to exist in tense solitude behind her courtesy armour. The impression this can give readers is that Sansa is weak-willed, but it isn't accurate. Reacting violently is not her default position like it is with Arya, but she does possess a fighting spirit that reveals itself at particular moments thoughout the novels. She's naturally gregarious and engaging, along with her other noted qualities of compassion and empathy. What I find interesting about Sansa's experiences in KL is that they managed to heighten those empathetic qualities (most people would have lost theirs) which we may see working now to her advantage in the Vale. Her captivity has strengthened her natural defences, and now that she's disguised as Alayne she has a chance to wield them more effectively.

[Gannicus]

Sorry Brashcandy, I'll try to steer this back on topic in a moment.

Rapsie I see what you mean there is virtually no getting through to the other side in regards to Tyrion.

I actually quite liked Tyrion until half-way into ACOK, then I didn't but he was still interesting.

It was coming in this forum and seeing people call him a "hero" which made me detest him. Go ahead and say he's witty and that he has done some good things, but in the end of the day Tyrion is one of the villains - in GRRM's own word, "the grayest of the gray". He had a singer killed and fed to peasants, he burned people's houses down and didn't care what happened to them, he killed a prostitute, he raped a woman, he killed his father, he wants to rape his sister, he forcicly married a 13-year-old, he killed the Antler Men, he muses about starting a civil war in Westeros so his niece (who was only ever nice to him) is killed...

I'll not get into this for the sake of the thread. But I find this post to be false in some areas and a comically small brained position in others.

Wow, your understanding of Sandor's character is pretty off the mark here.

Others are addresssing your points and I'm coming to this late but one quick thing you are wrong about. Sandor was ordered to beat her and he didn't do it. He also screamed out "enough" in an attempt to stop it but lacked the power to do so.

Enjoy bedding more if his wife didn't want it?!?! Just, no. Sandor hates his brother and has a couple of very basic codes that he lives by, one of which is to be better than his brother. There is absolutely zero evidence in the text that Sandor is a rapist or that he has done so in the past. In fact, when Jaime first hears about the rape of Saltpans, he is surprised to hear that Sandor was accused because it seems like it is Gregor's work. He's one of the few men that we have actually seen respect Sansa's choices and felt regret for not doing more to help her. His dying thoughts are on his failure to help her.

My understanding is certainly different than yours and perhaps I'm being a bit harsh on poor Sandor. Although he he appears to be changing, I still put him in the villain category and closer to the latter group of men that Rapsie lists below.

To be fair, in previous discussions "throwing Sansa under a bus" has been very common among posters, not you, but Tyrion fans in general. Personally I think that there are men in Westeros who would have forced her: Gregor Clegane, Ramsey Snow, Roose Bolton, LF, most of the Freys, Lyn Corbray, Randall Tarly, Theon Greyjoy, King Robert etc, then there are men who would not have because they would not have because they would have refused a forced a child hostage in the first place; Ned, Robb, Jon, Jorah Mormont, Stannis, the Blackfish, Davos, Bonifer Hasty etc. the fact that Tyrion manages to straddle the line between the two groups illustrates people he is better than and people he is not as good as.

He didn't straddle the line on his wedding night. He firmly chose to go with the "good" decision.

Although at large I agree Tyrion has more then a few shades of grey and by the end of the novel he might be in full on Tywin mode.

I don't hate Tyrion. And your answer about Sansa intrigues me. If you were writing, what would your ideal action for Sansa hve been to do say in her wedding scenario as that involves Tyrion, that would be more "active"?

I feel as though internal strength is much scoffed at, but we do have to take into account different personalities, so what would be a reasonable action for Sansa at the time?

Back on topic.

It was not her wedding scenario that I have a problem with. She did what she could do to show her displeasure, nothing more nothing less. But it what came before, I lack respect for.

She could have held her tongue with Cercei in GOT

She could have gone with the Hound in ACOK

She could have held her tongue with LF about the Tyrell plot.

Anywhere along the way she could have tried to gain confidants

Anywhere along the way she could have looked into escaping.

It was just blah for most of the way, waiting to be rescued like a damsel in distress and then balking at the few opportunities that came around.

I'm sorry I don't remember her chapters well enough to give yous specific example of her passiveness in the first 3 books. I get that she is young, naive, and doing a pretty fine job surviving some horrible circumstances. But I also think it's a stretch to say that she has moved from being a pawn to a player.

I don't dislike her because he has a good heart. But I think women have the right to expect more of their heroine.

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

Indeed the argument has been had and will continue to be had elsewhere.

Going back to the present situation in the Vale and the Sansa / Alayne dynamic, it might be interesting to contrast how both Stark girls have worn aliases since AGOT and how they contrast with one another.

While Sansa was known as Sansa Stark in KL, she had to learn how to hide her feelings and watch her words, meaning that from an outside perspective there is an invisible mask covering who she is inside to other people. Arya has worn a different name and gender which have exposed her to physical harms but allowing her to still essentially express herself as Arya Stark would have done. By AFFC the girls seem to have reversed roles and now more of the inner Sansa personality can safely be expressed. Is Alayne, while Arya Stark has to be concealed beneath No One.

Remember where Bran had a vision that he could see Sansa crying and Arya holding her secrets hard in her heart? Well, now Sansa is the one who is "holding her secrets hard in her heart." Sansa is doing little crying and more holding secrets now.

I remember something from ASOS at the Margaery/Joffrey wedding or during the preparations for it: Tyrion remarks how the common people see Margaery as their savior who re-opened the Rose Road when it was her father who closed that road in the first place. Meanwhile Sansa is wistful, thinking that Margaery has the love of the smallfolk when her "charity" is more a PR stunt orchestrated to make her look good. Sansa thinks something to the effect of, I wish the smallfolk would love me the same way. I wonder if part of her character arc in the Vale is to learn to genuinely help the smallfolk, who she can get to know better as Alayne. She will work out how to be genuinely loved and not as part of a PR stunt. Paradoxically, I see Sansa's masquerading as another person as helping her to become more genuine.

Margaery (again, I don't have time for a big post right now but hopefully later this evening) is a hollow shell of what a noble maiden should be. She SEEMS to be all charitable, virtuous, and kind, but in reality that is only a surface illusion. While I do NOT think that Margaery deserves what is happening to her right now I don't see her as an innocent victim or a tough, smart girl either. I don't trust her, I don't think she meant well by Sansa, I think she was fully in on the poisoning of Joffrey and possibly having Sansa framed. I wouldn't be surprised if the moon tea was something she really ordered for herself. I don't want to see her die - I don't like the double standard that kings can have bastards but queens must be faithful at all - but I would like to see some of her glamor and PR image tarnish a bit.

(Incidentally: I am one of those who see both sisters as two sides of the same coin, and I lurk on the two-sided-coin comm on LJ. I think they are an interesting study in contrasts in how to survive major trauma, and I would like to see both of them come together to help rebuild Winterfell, and to heal over their past difficulties.)

[Gannicus]

Margarey - totally the poisoner. But I think the Tyrell women would have been nice to Sansa, I think they just know she told and can't be sure if she betrayed them on purpose or not. Good that Sansa was well out of it though. Cercei would totally have named Sansa as one of the "sinners" if Sansa had still been in town and in Margarey's contingent.

I had this impression as well. I got the sense that Margaery was in on the scheme to become Queen. And the Tyrells told no one but Sansa about the plan to marry her to Willas. It must have felt like a betrayal.

[Lady Lea]

I'll not get into this for the sake of the thread. But I find this post to be false in some areas and a comically small brained position in others.

That is absolutely fucking rude and uncalled for. Just because I dislike your favourite character doesn't mean I'm "small-brained". At least I'm not the one making ridiculous generalisations about how "we identify with Sansa and that's why we hate Tyrion". If you can't contribute something worthwhile without making ad hominen attacks, this thread is not for you. I am blocking you.

[brashcandy]

Back on topic.

It was not her wedding scenario that I have a problem with. She did what she could do to show her displeasure, nothing more nothing less. But it what came before, I lack respect for.

She could have held her tongue with Cercei in GOT

She could have gone with the Hound in ACOK

She could have held her tongue with LF about the Tyrell plot.

Anywhere along the way she could have tried to gain confidants

Anywhere along the way she could have looked into escaping.

It was just blah for most of the way, waiting to be rescued like a damsel in distress and then balking at the few opportunities that came around.

I'm sorry I don't remember her chapters well enough to give yous specific example of her passiveness in the first 3 books. I get that she is young, naive, and doing a pretty fine job surviving some horrible circumstances. But I also think it's a stretch to say that she has moved from being a pawn to a player.

I don't dislike her because he has a good heart. But I think women have the right to expect more of their heroine.

Gannicus, perhaps it might do you some good to check out the reread threads in this topic. These are issues which have been extensively addressed in both the rereads and the earlier rethinking topics. You'll appreciate that it can get a bit tiresome repeating these very basic misunderstandings of Sansa's character, and we do hold her in very high esteem as a heroine. Right now, the thread is really dedicated to critical analysis and meta textual discourse, not to correcting views such as yours.

[1234567]

It was not her wedding scenario that I have a problem with. She did what she could do to show her displeasure, nothing more nothing less. But it what came before, I lack respect for.

She could have held her tongue with Cercei in GOT

She could have gone with the Hound in ACOK

She could have held her tongue with LF about the Tyrell plot.

Anywhere along the way she could have tried to gain confidants

Anywhere along the way she could have looked into escaping.

It was just blah for most of the way, waiting to be rescued like a damsel in distress and then balking at the few opportunities that came around.

I'm sorry I don't remember her chapters well enough to give yous specific example of her passiveness in the first 3 books. I get that she is young, naive, and doing a pretty fine job surviving some horrible circumstances. But I also think it's a stretch to say that she has moved from being a pawn to a player.

As BrashCandy said we covered a lot of this in the re-read. One of the major issues with Sansa's chapters is because they focus repeatedly on her thoughts and not her actions, her actions are very easy to miss. Indeed during the re-read I was surprised by the things I missed.

Her character was extremely naive in AGOT.

By the end of AGOT though she was being treated as a pariah in KL. it is mentioned that people won't even look at her. She has guards follow her and is under supervision almost constantly. Her maids are changed every couple of weeks and she is not spoken to by almost anyone. The guards are mentioned briefly by her in AGOT and then again before the B of BW in ACOK. It is when talking to Dontos at that point that she does urge that they escape now, because for once she is not being watched as closely.

Similarly I missed small things like the fact she has to sneak past guards to make it to the Godswood the first time and she fears it maybe a trap, so goes armed with a knife to fight to the death if necessary. It is only her return to the holdfast with Sandor that keeps questions from being asked.

Also there are small things like smuggling out her clothing to hide in the Godswood. It does not seem like much on the surface, but she had to find a time when Tyrion or Pod weren't in her chambers and her maids were not waiting on her. Given that it was normal for maids to be almost always in their ladies attendance, this would have been trickier than it appears. Also these dresses were not easy to conceal as modern clothing is, because there are lots of layers to dresses, spare shoes are bulky to conceal etc.

Many of these things are mentioned briefly, so easy to overlook because there is no tension built, and no scene of her having to avoid guards etc whilst concealing clothing on the way to the Godswood. Compare this to other characters who mentally remind the reader about their actions in detail, again and again. Their actions are increased while others are not noticed.

She had been plotting to escape from KL with Dontos for 6 months +, and thought she could trust him. She was wrong in that. I don't have the books on hand, but there is a theory, that LF was the one who suggested the Willas / Sansa marriage to the Tyrells. That way he could keep in the Tyrells good books and the Lannisters when he divulged the plot to them. It worked well too as Sansa was married to Tyrion and both were then implicated in Joff's death. Similarly there is evidence to suggest Brella, the maid hires by Tyrion was also an LF spy. However Sansa has now learned to hold her tongue and not to be as trusting due to what LF said when he killed Dontos.

I don't dislike her because he has a good heart. But I think women have the right to expect more of their heroine.

I think it depends on what you mean by expect. I don't expect her to physically defend herself, however I the reasons I like her are her courage and empathy. Despite what is happening to her, she still can comfort Tommen from Joff's cruelty, try to help a wounded Lancel, calm the women in the Throne room, save Ser Dontos, walk out of the Sept when people begin to pray for Joff, try and twice talk Marg out of the marriage because she is concerned for Marg's safety even though it may have bad consequences for her, nurse SR, trying to comfort the Hound when he tells her his story etc.

I guess I just don't see that many characters who act with as much compassion and selflessness towards their enemies and those they don't have to help. She is growing as a character and it is that growth I hope continues, but not necessarily in a kickass way.

[ARYa_Nym]

This is a very interesting point and I suspect it has to do with assumed gender roles. For a man to act in one way is fine, but when a woman does it, it's unnatural.

I do see her as a tragic child soldier, but her age and to be honest probably her gender tend to make me look at her that way, while the Hound was a tragic child soldier and although his actions are badass, he is a tragic man whose life is pitiable.

Possibly. I think there's a double standard. He loves killing and sometimes has laughed after killing people but if Arya kills young and on orders people are supposedly misreading her arc and have no reason to love the tomboy badass because she's not.

In badass threads people often mention Sandor, Euron, Victarion, Tywin, Roose, Drogo, Jaime. These are either disturbed individuals or people who like killing.

Barriston is seen as badass as well. He said that he hasn't slept well since the Trident but no one questions if years of war and fighting and seeing atrocities has broken him. He doesn't know how to be anything but a soldier.

In the Greyjoy cases the fact that they are murderers is seen as appealing and used as evidence as to why Dany would like at the very least Euron. But Arya killing people is evidence that no one would want her.

From the reading women thread is a good example:

While her action-oriented persona may have enabled her to endure/survive some horrendous events, she's now being trained to be a professional killer at the age of 11. It's horrific. She needs to get away before she is brainwashed into believing that what the FM do is normal when in actual fact they are a cult of mercenary killers....But, maybe I'm being sexist, after all noble boys in Westerose are trained to be killers from 12 (as squires) though they start their apprenticeship even earlier as pages (8-10 years).

No, I think you are quite right to see a difference. Nobles in Westeros at least give themselves a pretext for fighting and learning to fight—to better serve their lord's or family's cause. Arya is training for killing with no idea that he skills will be used to protect her own interest or the interest of those who have her loyalty.

It's supposedly tragic and an example of her being broken (those posters did not call her that but this is used as evidence) because she kills young and for an organization that doesn't allow her to serve her family but no one questions Jaqen's state of mind or if he's badass or not. He might have had to start young if it takes years to learn the FM ways. The men who work for the various sellsword companies like killing and all they do it for is money.

Jaime wanted to be a knight in the KG which allowed him to kill at a relatively young age. He kills easily and in AGoT he can attempt it on impulse without a second thought. Even in AFFC he is able to casually threaten to kill a baby.

Because they would be killing evil people for revenge / justice? It's not something I would like to see.

Most people want and believe that she will take down LF but some disagree on wanting her to actually kill him. They want her to remain a good person.

If Sansa is the most like Ned then she needs to do the killings herself.

"A ruler who hides behind paid executioners soon forgets what death is."

& Arya becoming the Stark hitman while they, (Sansa, Rickon) are the figureheads would just be them assuming the KM's role in Arya's life.

[HopeForSpring]

I think it is no win for the women of Westeros. Either they are "badass" in a male way and therefore broken or they operate within gender norms and are some how "less strong." Classic dilema.

And while I do think Margarey is in someways a big phony she is was pretty darn successful at playing the game while still being feminine. It could be read as fake caring for the small folk, but it was acknowledging them as significant. Something Cercei (and almost everyone else) completely misses. Also, Myranda is perhaps not the most genuine, but I'm not sure she won't end up being an ally - if only because she makes Little Finger nervous. And where I want Sansa to care about the well being of others, I also want her to be competent. That is a balance that few seem to be able to find.

I'm on the Dany/Jon re-read thread and what they both do wrong to me is fail to get what in schmoozy manager speak is "buy in from the stake holders." It's tedious and not as exciting and would probably make for exceedingly boring fiction. That said, Little Finger manipulates people, in contrast I would like to see Sansa learn to convince. Win allies with truth not lies. It would be nice to see.

[Valkyrja]

<snip>

Just ignore those silly 'badass' threads. Arya is an awesome layered character (as you have proven very well many a time! :) ) and so is Sandor. That's all that matters. :)

Back to Sansa.......

Someone asked earlier if Sansa is more 'bird-like' or more 'wolf-ish'.......why can't she be both? There is even that fantastical rumour about her after the PW in which she is referred to as a 'winged wolf'. Given the Lady/Sandor/wolf-in-the-wind element and all of the references to flying or birds in Sansa's storyline, I have to think there are elements of both within her. The canine/wolf is her totemic/family animal and one that perhaps has been lying in wait for a time, but is steadily arising. The bird I see as more a personal symbol for Sansa, especially because a bird can be quite vulnerable and powerless when its wings are clipped or if it is kept locked in a cage. But when it is set free, or finds its way out, it gains so much power and importantly.....freedom. Also, there are many types of birds (corvids, swans, waterfowl, birds of prey, etc.) not just silly talking birds from the Summer Isles. :)

[brashcandy]

Back to Sansa.......

Someone asked earlier if Sansa is more 'bird-like' or more 'wolf-ish'.......why can't she be both? There is even that fantastical rumour about her after the PW in which she is referred to as a 'winged wolf'. Given the Lady/Sandor/wolf-in-the-wind element and all of the references to flying or birds in Sansa's storyline, I have to think there are elements of both within her. The canine/wolf is her totemic/family animal and one that perhaps has been lying in wait for a time, but is steadily arising. The bird I see as more a personal symbol for Sansa, especially because a bird can be quite vulnerable and powerless when its wings are clipped or if it is kept locked in a cage. But when it is set free, or finds its way out, it gains so much power and importantly.....freedom. Also, there are many types of birds (corvids, swans, waterfowl, birds of prey, etc.) not just silly talking birds from the Summer Isles. :)

I agree :) I've always liked that fantastical story of her escape from KL, and Sansa being the winged wolf is a great symbol of freedom and strength all in one. There's also the story she reads to SR called the Winged Knight and this is where it gets interesting in the realm of crackpot:

According to legend, Ser Artys was an Andal leader who set from Essos to conquer Westeros and spread the Faith of the Seven. He commanded the forces that drove the First Men and Children of the Forest out of the Vale of Arryn. He flew to the top of Giant's Lance on the back of a giant falcon to slay the Griffin King. There are hundreds of tales recording his adventures.^[1] He is said to have been the first King of Mountain and Vale.

The Eyrie - called a castle of snow by Sansa on her descent in AFFC - is perched atop the Giant's lance. Might we see a similar flight by Sansa to kill a certain giant?

[brashcandy]

And where I want Sansa to care about the well being of others, I also want her to be competent. That is a balance that few seem to be able to find.

I'm on the Dany/Jon re-read thread and what they both do wrong to me is fail to get what in schmoozy manager speak is "buy in from the stake holders." It's tedious and not as exciting and would probably make for exceedingly boring fiction. That said, Little Finger manipulates people, in contrast I would like to see Sansa learn to convince. Win allies with truth not lies. It would be nice to see.

Indeed. With regard to finding the balance between competence and compassion, I think she's got that covered. We see it when she insists that SR be given a little sweetsleep to calm his nerves during the descent. She's not deliberately trying to endanger his life here, but she's very aware of the need to keep down the rumours concerning his ill health. Of course at this time she believes that her interests align with LF's, but that will likely change very shortly.

[Gannicus]

Gannicus, perhaps it might do you some good to check out the reread threads in this topic. These are issues which have been extensively addressed in both the rereads and the earlier rethinking topics. You'll appreciate that it can get a bit tiresome repeating these very basic misunderstandings of Sansa's character, and we do hold her in very high esteem as a heroine. Right now, the thread is really dedicated to critical analysis and meta textual discourse, not to correcting views such as yours.

Now that's a party I just can't miss.

As BrashCandy said we covered a lot of this in the re-read. One of the major issues with Sansa's chapters is because they focus repeatedly on her thoughts and not her actions, her actions are very easy to miss. Indeed during the re-read I was surprised by the things I missed.

Her character was extremely naive in AGOT.

By the end of AGOT though she was being treated as a pariah in KL. it is mentioned that people won't even look at her. She has guards follow her and is under supervision almost constantly. Her maids are changed every couple of weeks and she is not spoken to by almost anyone. The guards are mentioned briefly by her in AGOT and then again before the B of BW in ACOK. It is when talking to Dontos at that point that she does urge that they escape now, because for once she is not being watched as closely.

Similarly I missed small things like the fact she has to sneak past guards to make it to the Godswood the first time and she fears it maybe a trap, so goes armed with a knife to fight to the death if necessary. It is only her return to the holdfast with Sandor that keeps questions from being asked.

Also there are small things like smuggling out her clothing to hide in the Godswood. It does not seem like much on the surface, but she had to find a time when Tyrion or Pod weren't in her chambers and her maids were not waiting on her. Given that it was normal for maids to be almost always in their ladies attendance, this would have been trickier than it appears. Also these dresses were not easy to conceal as modern clothing is, because there are lots of layers to dresses, spare shoes are bulky to conceal etc.

Many of these things are mentioned briefly, so easy to overlook because there is no tension built, and no scene of her having to avoid guards etc whilst concealing clothing on the way to the Godswood. Compare this to other characters who mentally remind the reader about their actions in detail, again and again. Their actions are increased while others are not noticed.

She had been plotting to escape from KL with Dontos for 6 months +, and thought she could trust him. She was wrong in that. I don't have the books on hand, but there is a theory, that LF was the one who suggested the Willas / Sansa marriage to the Tyrells. That way he could keep in the Tyrells good books and the Lannisters when he divulged the plot to them. It worked well too as Sansa was married to Tyrion and both were then implicated in Joff's death. Similarly there is evidence to suggest Brella, the maid hires by Tyrion was also an LF spy. However Sansa has now learned to hold her tongue and not to be as trusting due to what LF said when he killed Dontos.

I think it depends on what you mean by expect. I don't expect her to physically defend herself, however I the reasons I like her are her courage and empathy. Despite what is happening to her, she still can comfort Tommen from Joff's cruelty, try to help a wounded Lancel, calm the women in the Throne room, save Ser Dontos, walk out of the Sept when people begin to pray for Joff, try and twice talk Marg out of the marriage because she is concerned for Marg's safety even though it may have bad consequences for her, nurse SR, trying to comfort the Hound when he tells her his story etc.

I guess I just don't see that many characters who act with as much compassion and selflessness towards their enemies and those they don't have to help. She is growing as a character and it is that growth I hope continues, but not necessarily in a kickass way.

You make some good points about some of her smaller deeds, I just don't have the time for an extensive reread atm

Because they would be killing evil people for revenge / justice? It's not something I would like to see.

Here is where we just fundamentally disagree. I root for Justice/Revenge and want/wanted to see Sansa to take that road. I had hoped it was her who poisoned Joffrey.

I think it is no win for the women of Westeros. Either they are "badass" in a male way and therefore broken or they operate within gender norms and are some how "less strong." Classic dilema.

And while I do think Margarey is in someways a big phony she is was pretty darn successful at playing the game while still being feminine. It could be read as fake caring for the small folk, but it was acknowledging them as significant. Something Cercei (and almost everyone else) completely misses. Also, Myranda is perhaps not the most genuine, but I'm not sure she won't end up being an ally - if only because she makes Little Finger nervous. And where I want Sansa to care about the well being of others, I also want her to be competent. That is a balance that few seem to be able to find.

I'm on the Dany/Jon re-read thread and what they both do wrong to me is fail to get what in schmoozy manager speak is "buy in from the stake holders." It's tedious and not as exciting and would probably make for exceedingly boring fiction. That said, Little Finger manipulates people, in contrast I would like to see Sansa learn to convince. Win allies with truth not lies. It would be nice to see.

I think the Queen of Thorns is "badass" in a woman's sort of way.

[Kittykatknits]

Great point Rapsie. I don't know if Sansa's full personality is quite appreciated due to the role she has to play for the majority of her time in KL. She becomes withdrawn and morose, has to dampen her spirits and learn to exist in tense solitude behind her courtesy armour. The impression this can give readers is that Sansa is weak-willed, but it isn't accurate.

I think this is the essence of it all. Sansa's inner thoughts are focused on her need to endure and survive to escape and she is using her weapon, her courtesy armor to do so. She is working all the time to maintain that and her thoughts express it. It's her shield while the rest of it, taking the knife, saving Dontos, arguing with Sandor, are not. So, repeatedly we see that her thoughts are not concerned with these acts as they are a natural part of her. It's the shield that she works at, projecting it to the world and using it hide Sansa Stark underneath. It's disappointing that more people don't see this.

My understanding is certainly different than yours and perhaps I'm being a bit harsh on poor Sandor. Although he he appears to be changing, I still put him in the villain category and closer to the latter group of men that Rapsie lists below.

Indeed. I wrote a post on Sandor that you might like to read as it summarizes his character rather well I think. He's not a hero, but I strongly disagree that he belongs in the villian category as you seem to think. I'd be glad to debate this further with you in a desperate thread if you would like.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/69433-why-all-the-love-for-the-hound/page__st__20#entry3337868

It was not her wedding scenario that I have a problem with. She did what she could do to show her displeasure, nothing more nothing less. But it what came before, I lack respect for.

She could have held her tongue with Cercei in GOT

She could have gone with the Hound in ACOK

She could have held her tongue with LF about the Tyrell plot.

Anywhere along the way she could have tried to gain confidants

Anywhere along the way she could have looked into escaping.

It was just blah for most of the way, waiting to be rescued like a damsel in distress and then balking at the few opportunities that came around.

I'm sorry I don't remember her chapters well enough to give yous specific example of her passiveness in the first 3 books. I get that she is young, naive, and doing a pretty fine job surviving some horrible circumstances. But I also think it's a stretch to say that she has moved from being a pawn to a player.

I think there is a lot going on with her charater that is often missed due to the style of her POVs. The knife that she took with her to the godswood is a good example of this but her thoughts around it are only a couple lines, easy to miss. I think it is the same when it comes to her situation while in KL. We get some really good information about her her experiences during her first POV in Clash. First, when getting dressed, she briefly thinks on her many bruises, all in very stages of fading away. She also tells us why she dresses the way she does and the reasons behind her clothing choice that day.Shortly after this, while being escorted to the tourney by Oakheart, she relates some of her experiences with different members of the KG. Again, all of these are very brief mentions that Sansa does not reflect on but you put them together and a story unfolds:

1. Sansa has been beaten and hit repeatedly, all over her body by members of the KG.

2. Sansa has been beated and hit so many times that she can make judgements against them based upon that.

3. Sansa has had to learn the hard way to figure out what Joffrey wants and how to act with him. Each time she gets it wrong, Sansa is beaten.

Yet, we are never told any of this information, her POV structure forces us to figure this out. There are other examples of this with Sansa too. Her first trip to the godswood tells us just how much she is watched as it is a rare chance for her to go anywhere unobserved. If we note where the KG stands watch, it's also apparent the men standing guard are also the same ones that beat her on a regular basis.

I don't dislike her because he has a good heart. But I think women have the right to expect more of their heroine.

I'll repeat some of what Rapsie said but I want to add in my own two cents anyways. I'll be honest and say that the first time I read these books, especially the first three, I didn't think all that much of Sansa. I was in a hurry to find out what `came next and didn't have the time to spend reading about Sansa's boring inner thoughts. It was on a re-read that I began to better appreciate her character, she is now my favorite.

As to Sansa finding confidants, it sounds easy but the reality was that there was no possibility of it. As has already been mentioned, Sansa's maids were switched on her constantly and were spies for Cersei and she was watched all the time by the very men that hit her. Even more than that, Sansa also notes that members of the court would avoid eye contact with her and even turn away when she walked in to a room. It's only a single line so easy to miss but it tells us just how difficult this is. In fact, the entire time that she is in KL, we only see one time where a member of the court talks to her and that is when she helps Lady Tanda with Lollys. Varys and LF had never done a thing to help her and were part of the Small Council that had her father killed, decided to keep her a prisoner, and kept her locked up. It's easy for us to say Sansa should do this but much harder to put in pratice. Sansa, every time she was presented with an offer of help took it. The exception for this is Sandor, who came to her while drunk and covered in blood and put a knife to her throat. If you look what happended to him in Storm, it should be very apparent that she made the right choice.

I remember something from ASOS at the Margaery/Joffrey wedding or during the preparations for it: Tyrion remarks how the common people see Margaery as their savior who re-opened the Rose Road when it was her father who closed that road in the first place. Meanwhile Sansa is wistful, thinking that Margaery has the love of the smallfolk when her "charity" is more a PR stunt orchestrated to make her look good. Sansa thinks something to the effect of, I wish the smallfolk would love me the same way. I wonder if part of her character arc in the Vale is to learn to genuinely help the smallfolk, who she can get to know better as Alayne. She will work out how to be genuinely loved and not as part of a PR stunt. Paradoxically, I see Sansa's masquerading as another person as helping her to become more genuine.

You made me think of Sansa's thoughts and action during the riot. We know that Margaery saving the city was a PR move as the Tyrells were the ones responsible for the lack of food in the first place. With Sansa, before the riot actually breaks out, she sees the tension within the crowds and urges Joffrey to give coins to the small folk in an effort to diffuse the situation as she recognized their suffering. Later, we also have her thoughts that she would have given them bread if she had it. It's a nice contrast as Sansa's effort to help was no PR move as she had nothing to gain from it. I think her later thoughts echo the same thing, she was motivated by what she saw, not from what she would gain by it.

[Torrhen Snow]

Sansa is definatly learning, and I think that the Starks have an all round family. Jon became LC of the Nights Watch and Robb became king of Winter and of The North. Bran is becoming some sort of Greenseer person and Arya is slowly becoming a killer assasin. Sansa looks a bit like the odd one out but I think she will master coutersy and Queen like stuff. Become a master of The Game because Jon is allowed to play it and Robb wasn't very good at politics and niether was Arya so I think Sansa will be very good at The Game. But then she'll almost die. Or be overthrown. Something bad's bound to happen when she gets too good but until then she'll learn how to play the game with LF. Or so I think anyway.

[The Mother of The Others]

uuuuuuuuh,

re: the warm relaxing dragon breath imagery

could have just been a contrast between how Ned's daughters were able to slip into sleep and look like warm babes at peace while Ned or whomever stayed awake all night unable to leave behind the adult reality of the situation. (This reminds me of the fanciful painting mum had hanging in a bathroom over the tub----it showed a moose exhaling warm steam breath in a wintery environment and all the cute cuddly forest animals had gathered round underneath the moose to warm up. I suppose things could end with a targ/stark alliance or understanding of some kind, and dragons may indeed watch over the girls at some point if they're brought under Dani's umbrella----or Bran's.)

re: wearing the Tully dress

not a regression, necessarily, if you count it as forward progress toward being a con woman! Learning how to blend in, like wearing the appropriate shade of camoflaugue. Tully colors probably are what the garrison is used to seeing and that will make her warmly received.

re: birdlike or wolfish

she chose people power over her warg power, she wanted to be at the center of things in the world of men instead of isolated up in the north in the land of snow. So switching back to wolf power at this point would leave her with lots of catching up to do. Might as well continue developing in the direction she chose and make good on it by following that path to its conclusion: Become some new Olenna type, a warg of people (a royal). That's her way to fly.

re: Ryan Seacrest

(I promised not to talk about her Lannister marraige, so I'll be talking about Ryan Seacrest instead, because of the striking similarities): Ryan may have redeeming qualities, but I don't care. It's too late for that. He's been forced on America unfairly, in the worst of ways and at the worst of times (replacing Dick Clark on the New Years Eve show like an ambulance chaser who shoves other hosts into an open grave while they're still breathing. Winning the lottery to be American Idol host who got to say whatever and ascend to totally undeserved godhood. And so on.) Then when I turned on the olympics and saw he was part of the broadcast, that was THE FINAL INDIGNITY in a long process of me building up hatred for him. I can't take that guy any more, in any capacity. If you defended Seacrest to me by telling me the story of how he really did earn a niche in radio and TV by being an excellent entertainer, I'm not going to listen. I'm just going to shudder in disgust. .....So too was Tyrion the final indignity forced on Sansa in a long process of building resentment. So Tyrion could have been Jesus and still would have had no chance of growing anything positive out of the horrible soil that marraige was planted in. By then the situation was so shot to shit that it doesn't matter whether he acted equitably. Defending the man at that point is pointless, because the unforgivable offense was the ROLE that he played, not the person that he was. Male readers see that Tyrion was forced into an arranged marraige too, and when we see people championing Sansa we're tempted to try and defend Tyr similarly. (What was he going to do? go against a dead-set Twyin on this? run away in the night? that wouldn't have ended well). But male readers have the luxury of reading that part of the series and only stopping for a moment to say "Ugh!" to ourselves before moving on, whereas female readers are naturally going to carry with them a more lasting impression of how horrible it would be to have to endure that series of events. This is why I believe we so often talk past each other on the matter of the nuptials, just like how Seacrest's fans don't seem to understand the horror (the horror!) of America's forced marraige to Seacrest.

Thank you.