From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa IX

[Candor]

Quite frankly a lot of the dislike surrounding Tyrion may have something to do with the fact that people supporting Tyrion tend to come up with all these reasons why he is good or non-reprehensible that involve throwing characters like Sansa under the bus.

[1234567]

I think LadyCandace (great to see you back btw!) has hit the nail on the head. There is nothing wrong with liking Tyrion (personally I love Stannis and find Victarion hilarious) but It is the whitewashing of characters that is objected to, especially in regards to Sansa.

To concentrate on Sandor (so this does seem too Tyrion snarky), Sandor in AGOT and ACOK is an arse and a deeply unpleasant person at times. He is also a killer as he says himself. No one is excusing his killing of Mycah: he killed him and laughed about it afterwards. However through the course of the books he has changed his character somewhat and by the end of ASOS he is in deep regret over his actions, especially those concerning Sansa. He has also saved Arya's life at this point, even though he did not treat her terribly well. Tyrion however started out as the loveble underdog, but through the series has become a darker and more selfish character (on re-reads he is also quite unpleasant in the first two books as well). He is not a monster, but I would say that the Tyrion of AGOT would not have been part of a forced marriage to a child prisoner and the Tyrion mid-way through ADWD would never have given saddle designs to Bran. Equally the Sandor of AGOT would have killed Arya in a heartbeat if ordered, but would not have done so by the end of ASOS.

Lots of characters change, but it is the insistence of fandom that certain characters are static in motivation or role that annoys a lot of posters here. Take Arya, a lot of people seem to still see her as a lovable tomboy badass, when she is now a desensitized child solider in the hands of an organization every bit as manipulative and dangerous for her as LF is for Sansa.

I hope that makes some sense.

[ARYa_Nym]

I find Sandor Arya comparisons interesting because in these threads and others I've read before about how Arya is broken and not badass. Then someone from here started a thread about Arya being damaged. People have also said that Arya and Sandor are similar because they both became hired killers at a young age.

Sandor didn't feel any more remorse about his killings than Arya did but you'll never read someone saying that he's not badass, or calling him damaged or psychotic. Arya has gone through too much trauma and there were comparisons in earlier threads about Sansa dealing with her experiences "better" even though they didn't go through the same thing. Except Sandor did what Arya is doing now but apparently that's okay. He can still be shipped with Sansa. He can still be thought to be on a road to redemption. He is not too "damaged". Nor is he psychotic.

[Candor]

I find Sandor Arya comparisons interesting because in these threads and others I've read before about how Arya is broken and not badass. Then someone from here started a thread about Arya being damaged. People have also said that Arya and Sandor are similar because they both became hired killers at a young age.

Sandor didn't feel any more remorse about his killings than Arya did but you'll never read someone saying that he's not badass, or calling him damaged or psychotic. Arya has gone through too much trauma and there were comparisons in earlier threads about Sansa dealing with her experiences "better" even though they didn't go through the same thing. Except Sandor did what Arya is doing now but apparently that's okay. He can still be shipped with Sansa. He can still be thought to be on a road to redemption. He is not too "damaged". Nor is he psychotic.

And here we have the point most people like to bring up, as if it somehow defines people who happen to like both Sans aand Sandor as characters, and we whitewash only to ship them together :dunno: .... can we not talk about Sandor or Sansa without bringing up the ship, and showing dislike of it? Let's analyze the characters themselves...

We don't think what Sandor has done is okay. Especially in past threads we have gone through full moral culpability discussions over his murders and (note that I'm not calling them accidents or unfortunate events, but what they are? Because I do acknowledge Sandor has murdered. Repeatedly. Cruelly.

I think LadyCandace (great to see you back btw!) has hit the nail on the head. There is nothing wrong with liking Tyrion (personally I love Stannis and find Victarion hilarious) but It is the whitewashing of characters that is objected to, especially in regards to Sansa.

Stannis, my King. :bowdown: Not a shining example of virtue but I have come to love his character. That's what makes these books fun, with the complex characters. Not whitewashed versions of them.

Exactamundo Rapsie (the bolded bit) - Glad to be back. Too often do posters fail to realize that the story is in fact, forever changing, and the characters alongside it.

Arya gets pinned as forever loveable tomboy who rejects conventions, Sansa as forever emptyminded twit who does nothing and doesn't pick up a sword and save herself, Tyrion as the guy we'd all like to have a mug with (the lovely Peter Dinklage <3 unfortunately contributes to this image), Bronn as the crafty sellsword with a dark, catchy sense of humor, Daenerys as TehMutherOfDragonsFTW!!11333, etcetera.

It's annoying, and incorrect to boot.

[ARYa_Nym]

And here we have the point most people like to bring up, as if it somehow defines people who happen to like both Sans aand Sandor as characters, and we whitewash only to ship them together :dunno: .... can we not talk about Sandor or Sansa without bringing up the ship, and showing dislike of it? Let's analyze the characters themselves...

We don't think what Sandor has done is okay. Especially in past threads we have gone through full moral culpability discussions over his murders and (note that I'm not calling them accidents or unfortunate events, but what they are? Because I do acknowledge Sandor has murdered. Repeatedly. Cruelly.

I'm not criticizing the ship. I'm criticizing the reactions to the characters. Many people think that Arya is too damaged.Many have said that she needs to die and will have no place when the fighting is done. No one says this about Sandor. Most people think that he can go off and be with Sansa.

In the why all the love for the hound thread there were some San/San or Sandor fans who said that he has expressed more remorse than Arya and is on his way to redemption.

[the hound of sansa]

well Sandor has gone through his years of murdering and is now, after all this time showing remorse, while Arya has just now begun. So she has a long road ahead of her

but both of them can have a place after the fighting

[Candor]

I wouldn't even care if you criticized the ship, ships are ships, not fact after all!, I just feel that people always tend to bring that up in arguments against Sansa and or Sandor as characters, even when it shouldn't be relevant. As if to put fans down in the sense of, "Oh you only are this woob about the character because you want to ship them."

That's what I was referring to.

In any event I don't share those views about Arya that you have seen, so all I can do is throw my hands in the air about it. Sorry :(

[1234567]

I'm not criticizing the ship. I'm criticizing the reactions to the characters. Many people think that Arya is too damaged.Many have said that she needs to die and will have no place when the fighting is done. No one says this about Sandor. Most people think that he can go off and be with Sansa.

In the why all the love for the hound thread there were some San/San or Sandor fans who said that he has expressed more remorse than Arya and is on his way to redemption.

I certainly don't think Arya is insane nor is Sandor, both are highly damaged people. Arya's story is sad and tragic and I hope that both she and Sansa make it out of the situations they are in and back to people who genuinely care for them. Again it seems to be a problem with this fandom, that the girls are set up against each other. I would says that both Arya and Sandor have demonstrated psychopathic behaviour in regards to their remorseless killing, but that neither is a psychopath both are highly damaged people. The difference is that Sandor may now be coming out of the dark path he was on while Arya is entering the same type of path he once trod. Personally I hope Arya does survive, but I have my doubts due to the famous "needle " line in AGOT.

Also the only reason I like the idea of Sandor and Sansa together is because they like each other, not because I think it is the best option for her. I. All truth Aegon or ideally Domeric Bolton sound like they would be much better matches. Sansa and Sandor being together would be a bittersweet ending at best: a bit like the ending of Jamaica Inn.

[Gannicus]

So, basically what I'm hearing is... praise to Tyrion, death to Sandor? Why must the two go together at all costs?

Sandor has done bad things. So has Tyrion. This is Westeros. There are no angels...

Lady Candace I bring up Tyrion and Sandor because this is a Sansa Stark thread. It seems the majority of the clientele here are major Sandor apologists and some of the biggest Tyrion detractors. I like to play devils advocate in this regard.

Now, Tyrion is not a character without faults or without sin. But the flak that he recieves from people frankly makes no sense. I get it, a number of the women on here see a bit of themselves in Sansa. They don't want to see this heroine end up with an ugly cynical dwarf who will use her for sex, political power, and doesn't even love her. On top of this, his bad deeds are harder to forgive because he is in direct contradiction with what Sansa fans want for her.

On the other hand you have this mysterious and misunderstood knight with a tough exterior and a hidden soft spot in his heart, He has often shielded our heroine and we think he loves her.

But put this aside for just a second and look at what our two characters have done in the novels. Tyrion has been nothing short of a hero on multiple levels where Sandor has been a cruel brute throughout the saga. I could list out the deeds but I think we have a good idea.

But clearly if you are a fan of Sansa the heroin you would find it much easier to forgive Sandor his faults than you might Tyrion's.

And comparing Arya and Sansa and their escape/non-escape from KL is just plain silly. It was great that Arya got out. She also happened to get out at the right moment. Sansa didn't have the same opportunites as her little sister, and while sharing DNA, are not made of the same stuff (persona). Just because Sansa couldn't hack off her hair and pose a NW recruit to get out doesn't make her a bad person...

Yes it is silly and unnecessary. You're right they are very different people. But the thing is I always hear about Sansa's inner strength on this forum, and I would have wanted to see more of her strength in her actions. I was hoping Sansa would have been more active in trying to get out for one.

I hear this stuff about how much strength it took to deny Tyrion on the wedding night or to not kneel for Tyrion at the wedding. Quite simply I think that's complete garbage. I'm fine with her not wanting to kneel in silent protest but she took no risk with that play. The two people that might have wanted to hurt her, Joff and Cercei, are taking pleasure in Tyrion's embarrassment. On the wedding night she is sad but ready to spread her legs. And then when Tyrion says "hey we don't have to do this" and she says "hey we might never do this"...wow this Sansa Stark girl really showed him.

I loved when she scaled down the wall to escape the city. I loved when she spoke up for Dontos. I even thought it was kinda cool that she used so much courtesy she got under Cersei and Joffs skin. But there was not enough of that kind of stuff for me in the first 3 books.

Quite frankly a lot of the dislike surrounding Tyrion may have something to do with the fact that people supporting Tyrion tend to come up with all these reasons why he is good or non-reprehensible that involve throwing characters like Sansa under the bus.

I'm hardly throwing Sansa under the bus by pointing to a couple minor faults. But the pro Sansa stance that is being taken against Tyrion is ridiculous. I hold by my statement that most other Westerosi men with ambitions would have let Sansa be tortured more than she was, would have put a child in her belly, and would not have treated her as kindly as Tyrion did. I can't understand the hatred directed at him.

[HopeForSpring]

I actually am a huge fan of Tyrion and Arya and think that San/San would be deeply messed up relationship (talk about stockholm syndrome...)

But I also think Sansa is proving to be a super interesting character who just - wow - I'm so excited for her next chapter!

I think you can be a Sansa fan and a Tyrion fan and hate them and love them both depending on the chapter you are reading. •

No one is an angel and no one is a devil* in this world and that is wonderful.

What I have noticed is that when people disagree, it is very easy on message boards to just think "oh they must be whitewashing/not reading it correctly/just not seeing what I do" when they very well might see the exact same thing, but just interpret it differently.

Shrug. We'll just keep asking each other questions about why the other person feels that way and learn about each other, too!

• ETA: The wedding scene is a perfect example. I can sympathize with Sansa for refusing to kneel as protest and feel bad for Tyrion that he is being humiliated, again, for something he doesn't really approve of. Uhg - my heart broke for them both. And THAT is what made it good fiction to me. Holding both emotions in my heart at once.

*Gregor, Ramsey of course, complete nutters.

[Candor]

Lady Candace I bring up Tyrion and Sandor because this is a Sansa Stark thread. It seems the majority of the clientele here are major Sandor apologists and some of the biggest Tyrion detractors. I like to play devils advocate in this regard.

Now, Tyrion is not a character without faults or without sin. But the flak that he recieves from people frankly makes no sense. I get it, a number of the women on here see a bit of themselves in Sansa. They don't want to see this heroine end up with an ugly cynical dwarf who will use her for sex, political power, and doesn't even love her. On top of this, his bad deeds are harder to forgive because he is in direct contradiction with what Sansa fans want for her.

On the other hand you have this mysterious and misunderstood knight with a tough exterior and a hidden soft spot in his heart, He has often shielded our heroine and we think he loves her.

But put this aside for just a second and look at what our two characters have done in the novels. Tyrion has been nothing short of a hero on multiple levels where Sandor has been a cruel brute throughout the saga. I could list out the deeds but I think we have a good idea.

But clearly if you are a fan of Sansa the heroin you would find it much easier to forgive Sandor his faults than you might Tyrion's.

Yes it is silly and unnecessary. You're right they are very different people. But the thing is I always hear about Sansa's inner strength on this forum, and I would have wanted to see more of her strength in her actions. I was hoping Sansa would have been more active in trying to get out for one.

I hear this stuff about how much strength it took to deny Tyrion on the wedding night or to not kneel for Tyrion at the wedding. Quite simply I think that's complete garbage. I'm fine with her not wanting to kneel in silent protest but she took no risk with that play. The two people that might have wanted to hurt her, Joff and Cercei, are taking pleasure in Tyrion's embarrassment. On the wedding night she is sad but ready to spread her legs. And then when Tyrion says "hey we don't have to do this" and she says "hey we might never do this"...wow this Sansa Stark girl really showed him.

I loved when she scaled down the wall to escape the city. I loved when she spoke up for Dontos. I even thought it was kinda cool that she used so much courtesy she got under Cersei and Joffs skin. But there was not enough of that kind of stuff for me in the first 3 books.

I'm hardly throwing Sansa under the bus by pointing to a couple minor faults. But the pro Sansa stance that is being taken against Tyrion is ridiculous. I hold by my statement that most other Westerosi men with ambitions would have let Sansa be tortured more than she was, would have put a child in her belly, and would not have treated her as kindly as Tyrion did. I can't understand the hatred directed at him.

I don't hate Tyrion. And your answer about Sansa intrigues me. If you were writing, what would your ideal action for Sansa hve been to do say in her wedding scenario as that involves Tyrion, that would be more "active"?

I feel as though internal strength is much scoffed at, but we do have to take into account different personalities, so what would be a reasonable action for Sansa at the time?

[ARYa_Nym]

I certainly don't think Arya is insane nor is Sandor, both are highly damaged people. Arya's story is sad and tragic and I hope that both she and Sansa make it out of the situations they are in and back to people who genuinely care for them. Again it seems to be a problem with this fandom, that the girls are set up against each other. I would says that both Arya and Sandor have demonstrated psychopathic behaviour in regards to their remorseless killing, but that neither is a psychopath both are highly damaged people. The difference is that Sandor may now be coming out of the dark path he was on while Arya is entering the same type of path he once trod. Personally I hope Arya does survive, but I have my doubts due to the famous "needle " line in AGOT.

Also the only reason I like the idea of Sandor and Sansa together is because they like each other, not because I think it is the best option for her. I. All truth Aegon or ideally Domeric Bolton sound like they would be much better matches. Sansa and Sandor being together would be a bittersweet ending at best: a bit like the ending of Jamaica Inn.

My point was that even if someone may not agree or disagree with it only Arya gets called damaged and psychotic. If you go to the Confessions thread right on the first page is a comment about Arya being too damaged and needing to be put down like Lady. Other characters who do the same thing as her do not get talked about like that.

Queen Cersei I is the one who brought this bias to my attention but she brought it up in relation to Jaime and Tyrion. Sandor also applies especially because in that Hound thread people said that Jaime and Sandor had better morals than her. Sandor didn't even get Mycah's name right when he confessed to Arya and didn't remember Mycah at all when she first brought him up. Jaime thinks about Bran once. Arya thinks about her killings scarcely as well but I think trying to say that they can be redeemed but she is too damaged and past the point is b.s.

EDIT: To be clear even if Arya were to become a villain and not "redeem" herself or such nonsense I wouldn't care. I just dislike how only she gets called damaged. Why is she damaged and psychotic but say Jaqen who does the same profession as her is not?

[Candor]

All I can say for that Arya_Nym is that not all of us are so "selective." I do think it's unfair though, in a way, that because some people misguidedly go around saying those things about Arya, that it's brought up as a point of contention against Sandor, for me that is non sequitur. They have both killed, and I think they both can earn redemption. Neither need to be put down. Which is why I (and most of the ladies on here at least) don't say it about sandor, or about Arya.

I actually don't think it's only Arya that gets called dmaged or psychotic. I have seen plenty espouse that view about the Hound.

[ARYa_Nym]

All I can say for that Arya_Nym is that not all of us are so "selective." I do think it's unfair though, in a way, that because some people misguidedly go around saying those things about Arya, that it's brought up as a point of contention against Sandor, for me that is non sequitur. They have both killed, and I think they both can earn redemption. Neither need to be put down. Which is why I (and most of the ladies on here at least) don't say it about sandor, or about Arya.

I actually don't think it's only Arya that gets called dmaged or psychotic. I have seen plenty espouse that view about the Hound.

Do you know what threads these are because I have never seen them. In the mental illness thread people said that he has PTSD while Arya is fucked up and clearly has a few illnesses.

In either the last Sansa thread or the one before someone came in here and said that Sansa needs to "fix" Arya or something to that effect.

[Candor]

For me it'd be older threads. I only got back onto the boards after a few months hiatus today, so though it is annoying to not be able to provide links, I really can't because I'm not current. This is what i remember from my previous experience, pardon me.

(Sisters, any links for her?)

[1234567]

On the other hand you have this mysterious and misunderstood knight with a tough exterior and a hidden soft spot in his heart, He has often shielded our heroine and we think he loves her.

It is very rare for anyone to see Sandor this way. He was a messed up, alcoholic, bitter and cynical killer. A knight in shinning armour he is not.

But put this aside for just a second and look at what our two characters have done in the novels. Tyrion has been nothing short of a hero on multiple levels where Sandor has been a cruel brute throughout the saga. I could list out the deeds but I think we have a good idea.

Actually there are a lot of actions Tyrion has committed that are pretty horrific and there are some exceptionally good ones. We are probably going to disagree on those. Sandor has been a brute, but has had several moments of doing good things he didn't have to. To be honest it would be better if you read the What will happen to the Lannister Sibling threads or the Tyrion the monster inside me threads as the issue has been thrashed out to death there. This is one issue where there seems to be absolutely no give or take and views get more entrenched as the discussion goes on. Even getting to the stage recently where Tyrion was held up as supporting a native oppressed community against invaders when the Vale Clans and arming them was brought up ( which has no textual support whatsoever).

GRRM himself has said that Tyrion is the greyest of gery characters and while we love some of his actions, we are meant to loath others.

Edit:because I had not deleted a bit of the quote and muddled it in to my own bit!

Yes it is silly and unnecessary. You're right they are very different people. But the thing is I always hear about Sansa's inner strength on this forum, and I would have wanted to see more of her strength in her actions. I was hoping Sansa would have been more active in trying to get out for one.

She did try though. She was constantly trying to get Dontos to speed up the escape plan and suggested to him to leave just before the B of BW because for once she wasn't constantly being watched.

I hear this stuff about how much strength it took to deny Tyrion on the wedding night or to not kneel for Tyrion at the wedding. Quite simply I think that's complete garbage. I'm fine with her not wanting to kneel in silent protest but she took no risk with that play. The two people that might have wanted to hurt her, Joff and Cercei, are taking pleasure in Tyrion's embarrassment. On the wedding night she is sad but ready to spread her legs. And then when Tyrion says "hey we don't have to do this" and she says "hey we might never do this"...wow this Sansa Stark girl really showed him.

After being beaten whenever she said a word out of turn (see the beginning of ACOK where she reflects on her old injuries from the KG and why she got them.) Speaking her mind at all, was a huge deal.

I'm hardly throwing Sansa under the bus by pointing to a couple minor faults. But the pro Sansa stance that is being taken against Tyrion is ridiculous. I hold by my statement that most other Westerosi men with ambitions would have let Sansa be tortured more than she was, would have put a child in her belly, and would not have treated her as kindly as Tyrion did. I can't understand the hatred directed at him.

To be fair, in previous discussions "throwing Sansa under a bus" has been very common among posters, not you, but Tyrion fans in general. Personally I think that there are men in Westeros who would have forced her: Gregor Clegane, Ramsey Snow, Roose Bolton, LF, most of the Freys, Lyn Corbray, Randall Tarly, Theon Greyjoy, King Robert etc, then there are men who would not have because they would not have because they would have refused a forced a child hostage in the first place; Ned, Robb, Jon, Jorah Mormont, Stannis, the Blackfish, Davos, Bonifer Hasty etc. the fact that Tyrion manages to straddle the line between the two groups illustrates people he is better than and people he is not as good as.

[ARYa_Nym]

^There are more threads where this topic gets brought up and I've seen it on other sites like Reddit.

When I put in Google Arya and I just start typing the word psychopath it comes up for me. This is popular. It doesn't do this when I type up the Hound or Sandor.

I think in earlier threads people said that they should do a tomboy reread thread of Arya to question how "badass" she is. & some have said that she's not actually badass but a tragic child soldier but I'm not sure about the amount in this thread. Is Sandor not badass for you because he did the same exact thing as her.

Also, I remember it being suggested by some for Arya to kill LF for Sansa to absolve Sansa from being a killer. & maybe not in this thread but some have wished for Sansa to be hands-clean like LF and Arya be her hitman so they can have a Doran/Oberyn relationship. How is this morally better than what Arya is doing now?

[HopeForSpring]

I don't know,

then there are men who would not have because they would not have because they would have refused a forced a child hostage in the first place; Ned, Robb, Jon, Jorah Mormont, Stannis, the Blackfish, Davos, Bonifer Hasty etc.

I don't know, I'm not sure some of those folks wouldn't have married the hostage in order to protect her better... But then again I think any one in Westeros that isn't a rapist does get a cookie. :laugh: It's a big YAY! for me given how rampant it is. ( Funny article about animal training )

Anyone who avoids causing the death of someone else gets a big honking blueberry pie! And a freakin' PONY!

And Sansa gets cocoa and a fuzzy bathrobe for actually saying what she feels in what could be a very dangerous situation for her. She's been beaten for less. Go her for not just being the little bird and swearing she's fine with everything.

But now, really, new territory...

Margarey - totally the poisoner. But I think the Tyrell women would have been nice to Sansa, I think they just know she told and can't be sure if she betrayed them on purpose or not. Good that Sansa was well out of it though. Cercei would totally have named Sansa as one of the "sinners" if Sansa had still been in town and in Margarey's contingent.

And Myranda - while not a friend, more frenemy perhaps... might Sansa learn from her, too? Mya seams more a more... nurturing? soul but MR knows how to play and that might be good for Sansa to be around. A woman player - not just LF.

[1234567]

When I put in Google Arya and I just start typing the word psychopath it comes up for me. This is popular. It doesn't do this when I type up the Hound or Sandor.

This is a very interesting point and I suspect it has to do with assumed gender roles. For a man to act in one way is fine, but when a woman does it, it's unnatural. Brashcandy and I both discussed doing an Arya re-read like the Sansa one: going chapter by chapter with summaries and analysis, but both of us felt we didn't have the time to do it at present (the weekly summaries for the Sansa chapters and analysis worked out on average between 2,000 to occasionally 5,000 words). It would be good to do though. We both might have time later in the year, and if you fancy doing it too, well many hands make light work, as they say.

Certainly I've noticed a few other posts in other threads that have aimed snide comments about how we can still be carrying on this topic, but to be honest the there are do far only two threads that have gone over characters chapters as a whole in depth and that is the Sansa re-read threads and the Dany and Jon learning to lead threads. One for Arya would be brilliant.

I think in earlier threads people said that they should do a tomboy reread thread of Arya to question how "badass" she is. & some have said that she's not actually badass but a tragic child soldier but I'm not sure about the amount in this thread. Is Sandor not badass for you because he did the same exact thing as her.

I do see her as a tragic child soldier, but her age and to be honest probably her gender tend to make me look at her that way, while the Hound was a tragic child soldier and although his actions are badass, he is a tragic man whose life is pitiable.

Also, I remember it being suggested by some for Arya to kill LF for Sansa to absolve Sansa from being a killer. & maybe not in this thread but some have wished for Sansa to be hands-clean like LF and Arya be her hitman so they can have a Doran/Oberyn relationship. How is this morally better than what Arya is doing now?

Because they would be killing evil people for revenge / justice? It's not something I would like to see.

[Kittykatknits]

A normal reaction to disappointment, just as I said. We can agree it was a miscalculation by Tyrion that she would be smart enough to realize that Tyrion hates the people who are responsible for killing her family. Haha, yeah :rolleyes: tell Lysa she had an arranged marriage to Lord Arryn, tell the Frey girl she had and arranged marriage to Edmure. I'm sure they were happy to consummate their normal arranged marriages. I never said he was an out and out coward. But Tyrion is more comfortable going against the grain. My feeling about Sandor is he's 30 year old drunken brute with a weird infatuation with a 14 year old girl. He enjoys slaughtering weaker people, getting young girls to sing for him at knife point, and although he has protected Sansa at times, he was never asked to beat her but probably would have on the kings request. What can I say, he seems like a man who would enjoy the bedding more if his wife didn't want it. A good post, except is it really fair to blame Tyrion for keeping Sansa as a hostage in KL?

Wow, your understanding of Sandor's character is pretty off the mark here.

Others are addresssing your points and I'm coming to this late but one quick thing you are wrong about. Sandor was ordered to beat her and he didn't do it. He also screamed out "enough" in an attempt to stop it but lacked the power to do so.

Enjoy bedding more if his wife didn't want it?!?! Just, no. Sandor hates his brother and has a couple of very basic codes that he lives by, one of which is to be better than his brother. There is absolutely zero evidence in the text that Sandor is a rapist or that he has done so in the past. In fact, when Jaime first hears about the rape of Saltpans, he is surprised to hear that Sandor was accused because it seems like it is Gregor's work. He's one of the few men that we have actually seen respect Sansa's choices and felt regret for not doing more to help her. His dying thoughts are on his failure to help her.