From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa IX

[Candor]

Regarding Tyrion and Sansa's wedding... I think in a nutshell what Tyrion wanted at the time was some love and understanding. He believed he could get that from Sansa, perhaps ignorantly, because I think Tyrion grew to see her compassionate traits, even behind the mask. So it's sort of a "She's My Best Bet" situation, like if anyone would show him compassion, it would be Sansa.

Unfortunately, it did not happen that way because he thought this without taking into account the extenuating circumstances with their two families, the war, and a great number of things. Honestly the wedding is a bit of a sad affair for both of them. More for Sansa, but I have to say that the more I re-read it, the more it strikes me that Tyrion wouldn't think about those things when he expected Sansa to look on him more favorably. It says to me that at this point in the books, Tyrion is so starved in a way that he lost sight of the storm around them, and tried to reach out to someone who if he had looked closer, he knew he wouldn't get any affection from.

When he is rebuffed, it hits him how wrong his calculations were. He's bitter, and angry. He storms off.

I have to wonder if in the books this was because deep down, Tyrion was skeptical of his 'relationship' with Shae that he was carrying on, and if she really loved him or was just pretending. Maybe subconsciously, he doubted it strong enough so that her 'love' didn't make him to feel loved, so he sought it elsewhere, with Sansa.

THUS... it will be very interesting to see what the television show does with this scene, if they do it. They have sure played around with the inter-relationships between Tyrion, Sansa, and Shae, and they are a bit "warmer" than they feel in the books. Will that change the outcome? Not saying Sansa will suddenly be okay with him, but talking more about Tyrion's lack of affection. He and Shae are very cozy in the show, will he still feel desperate? And how will Shae react to the union?

[Gannicus]

Regarding Tyrion and Sansa's wedding... I think in a nutshell what Tyrion wanted at the time was some love and understanding. He believed he could get that from Sansa, perhaps ignorantly, because I think Tyrion grew to see her compassionate traits, even behind the mask. So it's sort of a "She's My Best Bet" situation, like if anyone would show him compassion, it would be Sansa.

Unfortunately, it did not happen that way because he thought this without taking into account the extenuating circumstances with their two families, the war, and a great number of things. Honestly the wedding is a bit of a sad affair for both of them. More for Sansa, but I have to say that the more I re-read it, the more it strikes me that Tyrion wouldn't think about those things when he expected Sansa to look on him more favorably. It says to me that at this point in the books, Tyrion is so starved in a way that he lost sight of the storm around them, and tried to reach out to someone who if he had looked closer, he knew he wouldn't get any affection from.

When he is rebuffed, it hits him how wrong his calculations were. He's bitter, and angry. He storms off.

I have to wonder if in the books this was because deep down, Tyrion was skeptical of his 'relationship' with Shae that he was carrying on, and if she really loved him or was just pretending. Maybe subconsciously, he doubted it strong enough so that her 'love' didn't make him to feel loved, so he sought it elsewhere, with Sansa.

THUS... it will be very interesting to see what the television show does with this scene, if they do it. They have sure played around with the inter-relationships between Tyrion, Sansa, and Shae, and they are a bit "warmer" than they feel in the books. Will that change the outcome? Not saying Sansa will suddenly be okay with him, but talking more about Tyrion's lack of affection. He and Shae are very cozy in the show, will he still feel desperate? And how will Shae react to the union?

I don't know how they are going to play the Sansa scene out, but I have a feeling Shea thing is going to be totally different. She has been a much better character in the show. Betraying Tyrion would not seem to align with her character in the show.

[Candor]

I don't know how they are going to play the Sansa scene out, but I have a feeling Shea thing is going to be totally different. She has been a much better character in the show. Betraying Tyrion would not seem to align with her character in the show.

It wouldn't seem like it, would it? I wonder what will befall. I think from Sansa's angle, it will be pretty much the same actually, but it is Tyrion and Shae who will change in the show.

[TNine]

I think Sansa is being much snarkier and more active in the show--which is great, since without her internal dialogue book!Sansa is nothing. I think they are making Shae a confidant so that she can share her thoughts...but they may have her "betray" Sansa to Tyrion. On the other hand, Sansa could win Shae over, which would be nice to see. I think that Sansa is going to be the queen of passive-aggressive, but ultimately still terrified.

One thing that the show set up is that Tyrion legitimately cares for Sansa (immediately asks where she is during the Riot, shows respect for her after the beating), and i wonder if they are going to have Sansa reciprocate some of that feeling and keep it hidden, or just have her never see him for anything more than a Lannister. I'm hoping they don't try to set up Sansa as "wrong" in denying Tyrion, she gets enough hate already :/

[brashcandy]

Just a reminder guys: discussion of the show is off limits in this section.

[Candor]

Just a reminder guys: discussion of the show is off limits in this section.

Je sais Brash, but I still think this to be a most odious of rules, considering how they overlap... sigh, that and Sandor bb.

Anyway, back to the books... AFFC in particular.

While Sansa/Alayne seems to be gradually growing in power/knowledge/maturity during the stay at the Eyrie, Petyr seems to be gradually taking over Littlefinger. I don't know if any of you remember but the last time I was around the boards regularly I expounded on how his two halves are so different they may as well be two unique people themselves. Littlefinger is the courtesan, Petyr is the young boy who was humiliated and failed in love.

Sansa is learning from Littlefinger's ways, and also out of the defense mechanisms that have guarded her up until this point. She is coming into her own and starting to realize the value of information as knowledge, as something to formulate into strategies, and as power - over events and people alike. We get little glimpses of her as she toys with these new ideas and puts them into practice.

"There will be eight of them. Lord Nestor is showing them up, and they have Lyn Corbray with them. Ser Lyn is not the sort of man to stay away when blood is in the offing."

His words did little to soothe her fears. Lyn Corbray had slain almost as many men in duels as he had in battle. He had won his spurs during Robert's Rebellion, she knew, fighting first against Lord Jon Arryn at the gates of Gulltown, and later beneath his banners on the Trident, where he had cut down Prince Lewyn of Dorne, a white knight of the Kingsguard. Petyr said that Prince Lewyn had been sorely wounded by the time the tide of the battle swept him to his final dance with Lady Forlorn, but added, "That's not a point you'll want to raise with Corbray, though. Those who do are soon given the chance to ask Martell himself the truth of it, down in the halls of hell." If even half of what she had heard from Lord Robert's guards was true, Lyn Corbray was more dangerous than all six of the Lords Declarant put together."

I would like to draw attention to three sources, the bolded sections here, and the overall theme of this passage.

1) Overall - Lyn Corbray is presumably, based in the Vale. Is his fame so widely spread that the Sansa of Winterfell or Sansa in King's Landing would know his background? Personally I do not believe so. Thus that she knows it so well means that Sansa has been taking the first step: listening, and letting information soak in, in case it later becomes valuable to her.

2) Petyr said - I love these few Vale chapters we have so far, as they really do show so much of Littlefinger, of Sansa, and of their interactions. GRRM seems to be fairly specific when using Petyr vs. Littlefigner to adress the character, and in Sansa's own monologue, meanign she too, on some level sees the split. She realizes him as a wealth of information, and is studying him all the time. I find it interesting, and even though I know why GRRM uses Petyr to describe him at times, I wonder what Sansa's distinction in doing so is? When he is the teacher, the rescuer, the "father", is it then that he is Petyr to her? What's the line that gets drawn?

3) The guards - Sansa is again, keeping a sharp ear. Another great source of gossip, the smallfolk, and I think she is learning that very well, on her own initiative beside. Go Sansa ;)

Hell brash, if no one takes LF, I may just analyze him with Sansa too :P But let's wait to see first if anyone wants to!

[ARYa_Nym]

I want to point out, the "broken child soldier" bit could be because POV rather than gender. When we meet Sandor, he is already a badass. But we watch Arya go from a happy noble girl (even if she is a tomboy) to a "badass." But it's different because we were there to watch the horrible events which is entirely different than hearing a story about what happened. Gender may have something to do with it for some, but for others it is likely the POV and witnessing the change.

For the record, I don't see her as a "broken child soldier." I actually put her in the badass category. She definitely has her share of problems, but that doesn't stop one from being a badass (and besides, who in ASOIAF isn't damaged). Of course, like I said, I believe (hope) her arc will make her more of the noble type of badass than anti-hero type.

She is the only character with a POV where we get to experience them start to kill as a child but I don't believe that's the reason for only her to get called a damaged psychopath. Or for people to accuse her fans of misreading her arc and falsely thinking that she's badass but not holding fans of similarly troubled male characters to the same standard.

When we meet Sandor he is still a hired killer who loved doing it.

I mentioned earlier how it's clear from Barriston's POV that he only knows how to be a soldier. He's been doing it nearly all his life.

It's also clear from Jaime's POV how he easily killing was for him and how he wanted to be like other knights like Arthur Dayne and Barriston. We know how much remorse he's shown over his actions and how there's still the Jaime from AGoT in him (trebuchet baby). Even if he wasn't going to do it Arya contemplating killing people is often used as evidence of her psychopathy.

We have Tyrion's POV so we know that he barely thinks about the Antler men and blames Shae. The ones who do acknowledge that he's getting darker do not call him a psychopath.

We have Victarion's POV and we know how easily he kills and how he blamed his wife. He gets called a dumbass and some may call him mad although that is already given to us in the text but he doesn't get called damaged.

I think she is like a child soldier but I don't think that she's broken or anything. She may not be able to stop killing but people don't have a problem with male hired killers in the story. I don't think Jaqen is a broken psychopath and I wouldn't be surprised that he started as a child just like Arya did.

Don't get me wrong. It's still there. But I see Arya's gender as irrelevant to her main story.

I agree that gender is irrelevant to her story. I don't think GRRM wrote Arya and Sansa for us to compare which one handles their situation better or how they choose to adhere to and/or reject their gender roles and patriarchy. It can be done but I don't think that was the point. Gender was relevant to Arya in AGoT but I see it as irrelevant now. It may be important to Sansa's story and other characters like Asha, Cersei, Dany, and Arianne though.

It's been said in these threads and in the Sansa Arya arc thread that Arya was unrealistic because she failed to do her gender role and her parents were going to make her be a Lady eventually while Sansa was doing what she was supposed to do. Arya ultimately made a choice and chose a field where that dilemma became irrelevant. She could have chosen to be Lady Arya when the KM asked her and have to deal or not deal with Stannis wanting to marry her off like LF claims to be doing with Sansa.

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

She is the only character with a POV where we get to experience them start to kill as a child but I don't believe that's the reason for only her to get called a damaged psychopath. Or for people to accuse her fans of misreading her arc and falsely thinking that she's badass but not holding fans of similarly troubled male characters to the same standard.

When we meet Sandor he is still a hired killer who loved doing it.

I mentioned earlier how it's clear from Barriston's POV that he only knows how to be a soldier. He's been doing it nearly all his life.

It's also clear from Jaime's POV how he easily killing was for him and how he wanted to be like other knights like Arthur Dayne and Barriston. We know how much remorse he's shown over his actions and how there's still the Jaime from AGoT in him (trebuchet baby). Even if he wasn't going to do it Arya contemplating killing people is often used as evidence of her psychopathy.

We have Tyrion's POV so we know that he barely thinks about the Antler men and blames Shae. The ones who do acknowledge that he's getting darker do not call him a psychopath.

We have Victarion's POV and we know how easily he kills and how he blamed his wife. He gets called a dumbass and some may call him mad although that is already given to us in the text but he doesn't get called damaged.

I think she is like a child soldier but I don't think that she's broken or anything. She may not be able to stop killing but people don't have a problem with male hired killers in the story. I don't think Jaqen is a broken psychopath and I wouldn't be surprised that he started as a child just like Arya did.

Don't get me wrong. I'm sure for some, her gender does matter. But these Sansa threads have made me realize how POV warps our views. And I think you misunderstand my point. I wasn't claiming that Arya is the only POV character capable of killing without much hesitation.

Arya is the only one we see go from innocent to warrior.

Jaimie, Barristen, and Victorian were all accomplished killers at the start of the series. And while I forget if Tyrion actually had anyone killed prior to that, he surely wasn't innocent.

In short, some people may be calling Arya "broken" or "psychopath" because we seen her as normal little girl while the others you listed were already killers. It was already their normal, so it gets ignored.

I also want to point out I agree with your point that she's not broken. I'm just playing devil's advocate for an alternative reason why she gets hit with that as opposed to well any male warrior.

EDIT: Actually, Arya might not be the only one. It could be applied to Dany too. I'm not sure if that supports the gender issue or not since Bran was really the only male innocent, and he did not become a warrior/army leader.

[ARYa_Nym]

Don't get me wrong. I'm sure for some, her gender does matter. But these Sansa threads have made me realize how POV warps our views. And I think you misunderstand my point. I wasn't claiming that Arya is the only POV character capable of killing without much hesitation.

You weren't claiming that but if you read the threads where she's called damaged and psychotic/sociopath that is what is brought up.

Arya is the only one we see go from innocent to warrior.

Jaimie, Barristen, and Victorian were all accomplished killers at the start of the series. And while I forget if Tyrion actually had anyone killed prior to that, he surely wasn't innocent.

In short, some people may be calling Arya "broken" or "psychopath" because we seen her as normal little girl while the others you listed were already killers. It was already their normal, so it gets ignored.

I also want to point out I agree with your point that she's not broken. I'm just playing devil's advocate for an alternative reason why she gets hit with that as opposed to well any male warrior.

Well, being a warrior is what most men are expected to do so we are naturally going to see a lot of them already be killers but when a little girl starts doing it then people start saying that she needs to be put down like a dog. It has been said in one of the reread threads before by someone that Arya fails because she is not feminine and tries to put herself in an arena where she can't compete. Men are physically stronger than her and are meant to be killers/warriors.

We did get Jon's first kill and his loss of innocence but he's not a murderer. We've experienced Tyrion becoming a murderer and possibly raping on his own without there being the added factor of child abuse.

Theon I wouldn't exactly call innocent but we learned what he was capable of when he killed the Miller's boys without expressing much remorse. He does get called broken because of the Reek treatment obviously but plenty now for some reason think that things are looking up for Theon. I'm skeptical that he would have been called damaged without the Reek treatment though.

EDIT: Actually, Arya might not be the only one. It could be applied to Dany too. I'm not sure if that supports the gender issue or not since Bran was really the only male innocent, and he did not become a warrior/army leader.

Dany doesn't get called damaged and broken to my knowledge. She does get called the new Mad Queen but this has more to do with her having supposed Targaryen symptoms and her increasing paranoia.

& to add on to my earlier comment about what was said in here about Arya failing this could be why some want Arya to kill LF for Sansa. Sansa is apparently how a woman should be. Arya is incorrect. It's not natural for a woman not to be innocent and to be a murderer. That's what men do. Since Arya is already damaged she should kill for her sister.

[1234567]

<snip>

&amp; to add on to my earlier comment about what was said in here about Arya failing this could be why some want Arya to kill LF for Sansa. Sansa is apparently how a woman should be. Arya is incorrect. It's not natural for a woman not to be innocent and to be a murderer. That's what men do. Since Arya is already damaged she should kill for her sister.

Arya_Nym: reading yours posts makes me think we really really need an Arya Re-read thread.

Just to respond to your last part: I don't think I've seen many posts on this thread that suggest that Sansa was brought up to be the feminine ideal in genreal, but the ideal for the time setting. Normally this comes as a response from others who hold Arya up as an ideal because she eschews traditional feminine traits. However I think the point is that there is no ideal: if a woman wants to fight in armour, that should be fine, if she wants to wear pretty clothes and see, that should be fine too. There seems to be an idea of how woman should be, when we should be saying that women can be what they want. It is then possible to contrast this to the story and time setting and analyze both the text and a readers response to the text through their own cultural framework, gender and subjective bias.

The plus side of both girls is that they are highly developed characters: (I have said I see Arya as a cliche, but this is in terms of her tomboy trope within fantasy literature.) Sansa is the deconstruction of the damsel in distress (popular to Victorian fiction) and Arya is the deconstruction of the Tomboy (popular to fantasy fiction in the last 30 years). Both are highly inovative charaters and from Arya_Nym's points, it seems readers miss as much about Arya as they do about Sansa, because their is a lot of nuance to them, especially when compared to the very flat and awful cardboard cut out fantasy cliches such as Val the Wilding Princess.

[brashcandy]

Well, being a warrior is what most men are expected to do so we are naturally going to see a lot of them already be killers but when a little girl starts doing it then people start saying that she needs to be put down like a dog. It has been said in one of the reread threads before by someone that Arya fails because she is not feminine and tries to put herself in an arena where she can't compete. Men are physically stronger than her and are meant to be killers/warriors.

I've personally never seen these threads advocating for Arya to be put down like a dog.What I have seen are attempts by some to look beyond the typical "badass" label and analyse what is happening with Arya. Might this lead to easy judgements of "damaged" or "broken" which also don't attend to the nuances of what is really going on with the character? Perhaps, but at least there's the beginning of an awareness that Arya's character needs to be subjected to a more thorough critique that considers the effects of the kind of life she's living. And I don't know if you're familiar with the Sandor threads Arya_Nym, but when those were active Sandor was regularly described as a broken man who needs serious help.

We did get Jon's first kill and his loss of innocence but he's not a murderer. We've experienced Tyrion becoming a murderer and possibly raping on his own without there being the added factor of child abuse.

Again, you make a really solid case for how women are judged negatively in comparison to the male characters when it comes to fighting and killing, however, I still maintain that looking at Arya's development throughout the books there are troubling details which need to be explored for Arya's character herself. The underlying question Rapsie and I had when we started the Sansa rereads was who is Sansa Stark, really and truly? I think we've come to a good grasp of that. I don't think I have such a firm grasp on Arya's character and neither do a lot of people.

Dany doesn't get called damaged and broken to my knowledge. She does get called the new Mad Queen but this has more to do with her having supposed Targaryen symptoms and her increasing paranoia.

Well personally I've seen Dany been called a lot worse than damaged. The hatred for her on this board is out of control. I don't believe anyone in Westeros is really "broken" but we sure as hell have a lot of damaged characters. All of the Stark children are damaged to varying degrees in my opinion.

& to add on to my earlier comment about what was said in here about Arya failing this could be why some want Arya to kill LF for Sansa. Sansa is apparently how a woman should be. Arya is incorrect. It's not natural for a woman not to be innocent and to be a murderer. That's what men do. Since Arya is already damaged she should kill for her sister.

No, I don't think this is correct, or at least I've never considered that this is where people are coming from. Most people, including myself, want Sansa to be the one to kill LF or at least be directly responsible for his downfall. When we say that killing isn't Sansa's style however, that just the truth of the matter, not necessarily a value judgement where she's superior to her sister. Sansa's arc has been centred on her compassion and empathy - the "Mother" whereas Arya's has been about vengeance and death - "the Stranger". Both sisters can effect change through their particular strengths, and the desire for them to join up is to do just that: pool their talents together and become more formidable, with Sansa as the politician, and Arya as a kind of enforcer. However, perhaps even this desire from readers is a bit idealistic and based on some unfortunate stereotypical judgements, so you could have a point there. All in all, I think this just highlights the need for us as readers to constantly critique and rethink our perspectives on these characters and the future roles they will play in Westerosi society.

[TNine]

Arya_Nym: reading yours posts makes me think we really really need an Arya Re-read thread.

Yes please.

Just to respond to your last part: I don't think I've seen many posts on this thread that suggest that Sansa was brought up to be the feminine ideal in genreal, but the ideal for the time setting. Normally this comes as a response from others who hold Arya up as an ideal because she eschews traditional feminine traits. However I think the point is that there is no ideal: if a woman wants to fight in armour, that should be fine, if she wants to wear pretty clothes and see, that should be fine too. There seems to be an idea of how woman should be, when we should be saying that women can be what they want. It is then possible to contrast this to the story and time setting and analyze both the text and a readers response to the text through their own cultural framework, gender and subjective bias.

I think this is an interesting viewpoint our society has--we stand up for feminist power, but ultimately we associate power with masculinity, so we expect woman to be more like men. If i went around in a dress i would be mocked, but if a girl starts wearing baggy pants and heavy t-shirts she's embracing her power. The fact that Sansa shows some of the strongest emotional wherewithal in the series turns it on its head--Sansa is ultimately one of the stronger characters in the series. On the other hand, some facets agree with "feminine=weak" viewpoint--Sansa is one of the most powerless characters in the series, and also one of the most passive. There's a reason that so many people think she is a crappy character--i don't agree with it, but its the symptom of the way she is presented.

The plus side of both girls is that they are highly developed characters: (I have said I see Arya as a cliche, but this is in terms of her tomboy trope within fantasy literature.) Sansa is the deconstruction of the damsel in distress (popular to Victorian fiction) and Arya is the deconstruction of the Tomboy (popular to fantasy fiction in the last 30 years). Both are highly inovative charaters and from Arya_Nym's points, it seems readers miss as much about Arya as they do about Sansa, because their is a lot of nuance to them, especially when compared to the very flat and awful cardboard cut out fantasy cliches such as Val the Wilding Princess.

I don't think that Arya is the "stereotypical tomboy" character at all--she comes off more as a younger, less talented sister constantly complaining about how the older sister is stupid and worthless--basically, Arya projects insecurities on Sansa because she's bitter. Arya has crippling low self-esteem, and it isn't until Syrio comes along that she really starts to embrace her tomboy side, and she starts to gain her own power later in ACOK and ASOS with fighting. Her empowerment is directly linked to her killing tendencies, which is a weird flux of emotions for her to deal with.

Also, there is a lot more going on with Val than what meets the eye, not even just from a character point of view--she knows things that she shouldn't, she predicts actions with impossible levels of accuracy, she seems to be leading you on all of the time. Val definitely is hiding something, most likely greensight or something along those lines.

[Spiderweaves]

Arya has crippling low self-esteem, and it isn't until Syrio comes along that she really starts to embrace her tomboy side, and she starts to gain her own power later in ACOK and ASOS with fighting. Her empowerment is directly linked to her killing tendencies, which is a weird flux of emotions for her to deal with.

This is a really interesting idea. I like it! It also makes me align Arya further with Dany.

Even if they don't practice it, Arya and Sansa have grown up with the ideology of the 7 (Catelyn's belief, right?). The 7 certainly gives people a template for how to understand gender, Arya seems to respond the most to the model of the Warrior and, as noted, the Stranger. I identify Sansa the most with the Maiden and with the Mother.

In addition to all the other ways it helps her--giving her privacy and safety--I wonder if Sansa especially enjoys the Old Faith and the Old Gods because of their seemingly gender-less approach.

[ARYa_Nym]

No, I don't think this is correct, or at least I've never considered that this is where people are coming from. Most people, including myself, want Sansa to be the one to kill LF or at least be directly responsible for his downfall. When we say that killing isn't Sansa's style however, that just the truth of the matter, not necessarily a value judgement where she's superior to her sister. Sansa's arc has been centred on her compassion and empathy - the "Mother" whereas Arya's has been about vengeance and death - "the Stranger". Both sisters can effect change through their particular strengths, and the desire for them to join up is to do just that: pool their talents together and become more formidable, with Sansa as the politician, and Arya as a kind of enforcer. However, perhaps even this desire from readers is a bit idealistic and based on some unfortunate stereotypical judgements, so you could have a point there. All in all, I think this just highlights the need for us as readers to constantly critique and rethink our perspectives on these characters and the future roles they will play in Westerosi society.

In these threads and some others some people have said that they don't want Sansa to become a killer because she is a good person and they don't want her to lose her innocence. Then it was brought up maybe Arya can do it for her. There are Sansa fans that want her to kill LF but the fans seem to be split up on this.

In either a younger queen thread or something else it was said that Arya has already lost her innoncence. Someone said that if Sansa will become the younger queen hopefully Arya can kill Tommen and Myrcella so Sansa doesn't have anything to do with it.

I've read before that Sansa can be the political one and Arya needs to be behind the scenes. She can be Sansa's hitman so Sansa can keep her hands clean.

I've personally never seen these threads advocating for Arya to be put down like a dog.What I have seen are attempts by some to look beyond the typical "badass" label and analyse what is happening with Arya. Might this lead to easy judgements of "damaged" or "broken" which also don't attend to the nuances of what is really going on with the character? Perhaps, but at least there's the beginning of an awareness that Arya's character needs to be subjected to a more thorough critique that considers the effects of the kind of life she's living. And I don't know if you're familiar with the Sandor threads Arya_Nym, but when those were active Sandor was regularly described as a broken man who needs serious help.

It's right here and was liked by some.

http://asoiaf.wester...onssay-what-v3/

People think that she's damaged and broken because she kills people if you read the damaged and psychopath threads. They say that Uncat has more humanity in her than Arya does.

I just got the impression from Sansa Rethinking II that it was being said that she's not badass because of how killing and war has effected her character and Arya fans don't understand her character. Neither is Sandor then.

In a Jon and Sansa thread and a Sansa helpless thread it was said that Arya is not a true Stark because she murders people. When I brought up male Starks who liked killing and were morally grey like Brandon Stark and the Kings of Winter it was said that they don't care about them. These same people like Sansa.

It was said that Jon will hate Arya for what she's become and start to like Sansa because she's not a murderer. Never mind that Ygritte was, the NW is full of murderers, his wildling friends rape and pillage, and Stannis burns people alive.

In the damaged thread it was said that this is a story without redemption and Arya needs to suffer the consequences for being a murderer. Well then so should the male characters who have done the same as her.

Maybe you haven't been in much Arya threads but the effects of how she's living now does get discussed. It may not be the focus of thread unless it's the Hiding Needle, Damaged, or Psychopath centered thread but it's often said that she has no place after the fighting is done. She is the Frodo of the story. She's going to die because because of her path.

EDIT: There are actually 2 Arya will die threads. & one about how young she is to be killing people.

Arya_Nym: reading yours posts makes me think we really really need an Arya Re-read thread.

Just to respond to your last part: I don't think I've seen many posts on this thread that suggest that Sansa was brought up to be the feminine ideal in genreal, but the ideal for the time setting. Normally this comes as a response from others who hold Arya up as an ideal because she eschews traditional feminine traits. However I think the point is that there is no ideal: if a woman wants to fight in armour, that should be fine, if she wants to wear pretty clothes and see, that should be fine too. There seems to be an idea of how woman should be, when we should be saying that women can be what they want. It is then possible to contrast this to the story and time setting and analyze both the text and a readers response to the text through their own cultural framework, gender and subjective bias.

The plus side of both girls is that they are highly developed characters: (I have said I see Arya as a cliche, but this is in terms of her tomboy trope within fantasy literature.) Sansa is the deconstruction of the damsel in distress (popular to Victorian fiction) and Arya is the deconstruction of the Tomboy (popular to fantasy fiction in the last 30 years). Both are highly inovative charaters and from Arya_Nym's points, it seems readers miss as much about Arya as they do about Sansa, because their is a lot of nuance to them, especially when compared to the very flat and awful cardboard cut out fantasy cliches such as Val the Wilding Princess.

These post exist. Plus, it's often said in here how Sansa is better because she's realistic and Arya is so unrealistic because she tries to be like a man. Most people call Arya cliche and typical. In Rethinking II it was said that fans are manipulated to like her because she's such a typical character.

It has been talked about in these thread and the women threads how women who act like men are unsuccessful and put themselves in danger. Lyanna, Brienne, Danny Flint, Pretty Meris, etc. & it was also said that they don't want power for themselves and don't challenge patriarchy the way feminine women do. Feminine women try to take control over their life and want to decide who they will marry like Sansa and Cersei.

[Winter's Knight]

ARYa_Nym, if I were to start an Arya re-read, would you be interested? It would involve a chapter-by-chapter in-dpeth analysis of her chapters.

[Spiderweaves]

For the record, I liked that confession about Arya because I thought it was darkly humorous, which is what I think a confession should be. I never thought of her broken-ness in terms of her not adhering to gender norms, and it sincerely didn't occur to me that anyone else would.

I'm naive sometimes about how progressive people on the Internet are. This naivete probably comes from doing graduate work in gender studies--in real life, I rarely interact with people who haven't spent a lot of time thinking about gender and its consequences.

I guess I think Arya's fairly psychologically broken. How could one not be, traveling all that way to find one's lost mother only to discover her dead (RW passages)?

Sorry for the OT. Just wanted to get that out there.

[Kittykatknits]

In these threads and some others some people have said that they don't want Sansa to become a killer because she is a good person and they don't want her to lose her innocence. Then it was brought up maybe Arya can do it for her. There are Sansa fans that want her to kill LF but the fans seem to be split up on this.

In either a younger queen thread or something else it was said that Arya has already lost her innoncence. Someone said that if Sansa will become the younger queen hopefully Arya can kill Tommen and Myrcella so Sansa doesn't have anything to do with it.

I've read before that Sansa can be the political one and Arya needs to be behind the scenes. She can be Sansa's hitman so Sansa can keep her hands clean.

I know I've said more than once that I hope Sansa and Arya can work together some day and I still want that to be the case. I've also said that I think Arya could do a lot behind the scenes but I've never talked about her doing any needed assasinations for either Sansa or the Starks. I was thinking more in a spying/esponiage sense. It's information that can be used in combination with Sansa's skills in public and her ability to flatter.

People think that she's damaged and broken because she kills people if you read the damaged and psychopath threads. They say that Uncat has more humanity in her than Arya does.

I just got the impression from Sansa Rethinking II that it was being said that she's not badass because of how killing and war has effected her character and Arya fans don't understand her character. Neither is Sandor then.

In a Jon and Sansa thread and a Sansa helpless thread it was said that Arya is not a true Stark because she murders people. When I brought up male Starks who liked killing and were morally grey like Brandon Stark and the Kings of Winter it was said that they don't care about them. These same people like Sansa.

It was said that Jon will hate Arya for what she's become and start to like Sansa because she's not a murderer. Never mind that Ygritte was, the NW is full of murderers, his wildling friends rape and pillage, and Stannis burns people alive.

In the damaged thread it was said that this is a story without redemption and Arya needs to suffer the consequences for being a murderer. Well then so should the male characters who have done the same as her.

Maybe you haven't been in much Arya threads but the effects of how she's living now does get discussed. It may not be the focus of thread unless it's the Hiding Needle, Damaged, or Psychopath centered thread but it's often said that she has no place after the fighting is done. She is the Frodo of the story. She's going to die because because of her path.

I'm sensing quite a bit of frustration with how Arya is perceived as a character within the fandom and I can certainly appreciate why. I'm inclinded to agree with others who have said so before though. The best way to change broader reader perception is by launchig a re-read of her character that allows for objective discussion and analsis on a chapter by chapter basis. It takes out supposition and opinions which lacks basis in the text. I've seen many, many people on these board say that they have changed their opinion of Sansa or increased their appreciation for her based on the PtP re-read. I think a similar approach would do the same for Arya. Despite the statements that you have highlighted, she does remain one of the most popular characters in the series so I think a re-read would get a very positive response.

These post exist. Plus, it's often said in here how Sansa is better because she's realistic and Arya is so unrealistic because she tries to be like a man. Most people call Arya cliche and typical. In Rethinking II it was said that fans are manipulated to like her because she's such a typical character.

It has been talked about in these thread and the women threads how women who act like men are unsuccessful and put themselves in danger. Lyanna, Brienne, Danny Flint, Pretty Meris, etc. & it was also said that they don't want power for themselves and don't challenge patriarchy the way feminine women do. Feminine women try to take control over their life and want to decide who they will marry like Sansa and Cersei.

Well, I do believe that Sansa is one of the most realistic characters in the series. I don't think Arya herself is unrealistic but I think her storyline is which is a big difference. As to the bolded sentence, I think there is a valid point here. The feminine ideals being pushed by Sansa and other characters are much more likely to actually lead to change with society as opposed to forging a path that exists within the culture the way it is. If i put it in a modern context, it reminds me of women entering the workplace. At first, the movement was about demanding access to the domain of men but it was still working on thier terms. However, over time, woman have pushed for change within the workplace itself. This changes from country to country but we have maternity leave policies, flexible work and time schedules, that sort of thing. In the long run, woman changing the world to better meet their needs is the much more subversive activity.

[brashcandy]

<<snip>>

As noted, people will say all kinds of things because the peculiarities in the character's arc are ignored and the stereotypical judgements are easy to form. See for example Sansa as weak/shallow/damsel in distress vs. Arya as strong/powerful/badass or both sisters as damaged and broken.

I just got the impression from Sansa Rethinking II that it was being said that she's not badass because of how killing and war has effected her character and Arya fans don't understand her character. Neither is Sandor then.

She's badass in that she can be a ruthless, efficient killer. Yes, it's a label that is sometimes used, but the problem that was noted with Arya's fans is the tendency to claim that Arya's eschewing of traditional femininity makes her stronger than Sansa. That's why there might have been the claim that getting past the badass persona we need to see how killing and war has affected Arya. There's nothing wrong with that assessment.

In a Jon and Sansa thread and a Sansa helpless thread it was said that Arya is not a true Stark because she murders people. When I brought up male Starks who liked killing and were morally grey like Brandon Stark and the Kings of Winter it was said that they don't care about them. These same people like Sansa.

Hahahah! Well, I will take your word for it then Arya_Nym, and hold to my belief that this view is not representative of the majority of the fandom. Sansa is the one who is predominantly accused of not being a true Stark.

It was said that Jon will hate Arya for what she's become and start to like Sansa because she's not a murderer. Never mind that Ygritte was, the NW is full of murderers, his wildling friends rape and pillage, and Stannis burns people alive.

Really? Again, I can't take these statements as being truly predominant or representative of the prevailing views of readers. Arya's and Jon's relationship is woobified to an extreme degree and most people are dying for them to reconnect so he can muffle her hair and call her little sister, or something along those lines.

In the damaged thread it was said that this is a story without redemption and Arya needs to suffer the consequences for being a murderer. Well then so should the male characters who have done the same as her.

I agree. I see all the Stark children as victims ultimately. Victims who are trying to learn to survive and make their way in the world without succumbing to dark forces. It's a challenge all of them face and all of them will have to judged on their actions.

Maybe you haven't been in much Arya threads but the effects of how she's living now does get discussed. It may not be the focus of thread unless it's the Hiding Needle, Damaged, or Psychopath centered thread but it's often said that she has no place after the fighting is done. She is the Frodo of the story. She's going to die because because of her path.

Well I know some people believe there's foreshadowing that suggests Arya will die, but I don't believe she has to die because she's a murderer or hired killer. If people think so, well, that's their opinion.

These post exist. Plus, it's often said in here how Sansa is better because she's realistic and Arya is so unrealistic because she tries to be like a man. Most people call Arya cliche and typical. In Rethinking II it was said that fans are manipulated to like her because she's such a typical character.

Nope. People may say they like Sansa better but I'm not aware of anyone directly claiming that Sansa is the better sister. It is true that the portrayal of Arya is fairly unrealistic, but Martin deliberately portrays her sympathetically to readers while Sansa comes off as a kind of black sheep. Given that one would assume the real black sheep would be the bastard Jon you can appreciate the irony here. And I think the blame for Arya coming off as cliche etc has to do in large part because of her fans who refuse to subject her to critical analysis. She's awesome fullstop.

It has been talked about in these thread and the women threads how women who act like men are unsuccessful and put themselves in danger. Lyanna, Brienne, Danny Flint, Pretty Meris, etc. & it was also said that they don't want power for themselves and don't challenge patriarchy the way feminine women do. Feminine women try to take control over their life and want to decide who they will marry like Sansa and Cersei.

From a purely textual perspective - that's true. Women like Cersei and Sansa are making more inroads into patriarchal dominance, but that doesn't mean that we don't appreciate what Arya and co. are doing either. It's simply to point out the fallacy of the noted fandom preference for these women based on their actions which are not "feminine" and supposedly more radical and effective as a result. We're highlighting that unless you look deeper you won't see how a lot of these women are merely maintaining the unequal power structures in their societies.

[ARYa_Nym]

I know I've said more than once that I hope Sansa and Arya can work together some day and I still want that to be the case. I've also said that I think Arya could do a lot behind the scenes but I've never talked about her doing any needed assasinations for either Sansa or the Starks. I was thinking more in a spying/esponiage sense. It's information that can be used in combination with Sansa's skills in public and her ability to flatter.

I don't think you said that.Other people have talked about Sansa and Arya should working together on this forum.

I'm sensing quite a bit of frustration with how Arya is perceived as a character within the fandom and I can certainly appreciate why. I'm inclinded to agree with others who have said so before though. The best way to change broader reader perception is by launchig a re-read of her character that allows for objective discussion and analsis on a chapter by chapter basis. It takes out supposition and opinions which lacks basis in the text. I've seen many, many people on these board say that they have changed their opinion of Sansa or increased their appreciation for her based on the PtP re-read. I think a similar approach would do the same for Arya. Despite the statements that you have highlighted, she does remain one of the most popular characters in the series so I think a re-read would get a very positive response.

I don't think people are missing the change she's gone through. People have different reactions to this change. On ONTD it was said that she's fucked up. Other people like that she's killing.

Most people don't want her to stay on the path she is now. There are tons of threads where people try to figure out how she's going to get away from the FM and become Arya Stark.

For the record, I liked that confession about Arya because I thought it was darkly humorous, which is what I think a confession should be. I never thought of her broken-ness in terms of her not adhering to gender norms, and it sincerely didn't occur to me that anyone else would.

I'm naive sometimes about how progressive people on the Internet are. This naivete probably comes from doing graduate work in gender studies--in real life, I rarely interact with people who haven't spent a lot of time thinking about gender and its consequences.

I guess I think Arya's fairly psychologically broken. How could one not be, traveling all that way to find one's lost mother only to discover her dead (RW passages)?

Sorry for the OT. Just wanted to get that out there.

People don't say that she's damaged because she breaks gender norms.

From a purely textual perspective - that's true. Women like Cersei and Sansa are making more inroads into patriarchal dominance, but that doesn't mean that we don't appreciate what Arya and co. are doing either. It's simply to point out the fallacy of the noted fandom preference for these women based on their actions which are not "feminine" and supposedly more radical and effective as a result. We're highlighting that unless you look deeper you won't see how a lot of these women are merely maintaining the unequal power structures in their societies.

How though? Doesn't Asha want to rule the Ironborn who don't want a woman to rule? Don't women who fight also not want to be married against their will and want to choose their future? That's a woman issue to me not a feminine issue. In the Saltpans thread the same thing was brought up how Arya doesn't want power for herself. Part of the reason why she wanted to join the FM was to not be powerless.

As noted, people will say all kinds of things because the peculiarities in the character's arc are ignored and the stereotypical judgements are easy to form. See for example Sansa as weak/shallow/damsel in distress vs. Arya as strong/powerful/badass or both sisters as damaged and broken.

She's badass in that she can be a ruthless, efficient killer. Yes, it's a label that is sometimes used, but the problem that was noted with Arya's fans is the tendency to claim that Arya's eschewing of traditional femininity makes her stronger than Sansa. That's why there might have been the claim that getting past the badass persona we need to see how killing and war has affected Arya. There's nothing wrong with that assessment.

In the comparative reread thread it was talked about how Sansa did not let her experience break her and some said that it didn't hold true from Arya (although that may have been said in earlier threads) and Jeyne Poole. The worst I've read is that Sansa suffers from Stockholm Syndrome. She gets called passive and useless mainly.

My dilemma was male characters not being held to the same standard. It was questioned in here and the Saltpans thread why we think that Arya is badass so I'm saying that Sandor and Jaime fans and the like should be accused of this too.

I agree. I see all the Stark children as victims ultimately. Victims who are trying to learn to survive and make their way in the world without succumbing to dark forces. It's a challenge all of them face and all of them will have to judged on their actions.

Well I know some people believe there's foreshadowing that suggests Arya will die, but I don't believe she has to die because she's a murderer or hired killer. If people think so, well, that's their opinion.

A lot of people think so but they don't say this about characters who have done the same thing as her.

Hahahah! Well, I will take your word for it then Arya_Nym, and hold to my belief that this view is not representative of the majority of the fandom. Sansa is the one who is predominantly accused of not being a true Stark.

Really? Again, I can't take these statements as being truly predominant or representative of the prevailing views of readers. Arya's and Jon's relationship is woobified to an extreme degree and most people are dying for them to reconnect so he can muffle her hair and call her little sister, or something along those lines.

She is but the point for me is the difference in the reactions that she gets to murdering people than others.

[HopeForSpring]

If i went around in a dress i would be mocked, but if a girl starts wearing baggy pants and heavy t-shirts she's embracing her power.

Convenient article in the NYT: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/12/magazine/whats-so-bad-about-a-boy-who-wants-to-wear-a-dress.html

Speaking as a younger sister with an insanely "perfect" older sister like Sansa ( I know better now and we get along well as adults ), I totally resonated more with Arya on an initial read. I still do in some ways. I just got so sick of people saying Sansa was boring because she didn't fight. Girly girls are allowed to have impact, too.

I think the point that GRRM is making in his series is that a world of violence, feudalism and strict gender norms is hard on everyone and that fantasy worlds in which everyone is good or evil and completely comfortable in their own skin are in contrast to the real human condition.

I think it is a cop-out to have Arya/Sandor/Anyone kill LF for Sansa so Sansa can stay all pretty and clean. If she participates, she won't be clean. As much as LF likes to pretend his hands are clean... his soul is not.*

I don't think anyone gets out of Westeros clean.

ETA: Arya had to dress like a boy or she would have been raped. Hot Pie didn't have to worry about that. How is her gender not in play for her?

ETA: Maybe we will need to rethink Little Finger, what was he supposed to do, just stay home in his sheep tower and be a good little minor man? Do we owe LF an apology for hating (speaking for myself here) him?