Heresy 21

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

Well, it was stated in the books that the defensibility from the south was removed because of the incident with the Night's King, so I would assume every castle along the wall before that was defensible with walls in all directions.

I said this, almost exactly. What are you on about then?

[Efilnikufesin]

I said this, almost exactly. What are you on about then?

Just wondering whether they have been defending this position since before the Wall was put in place as this great barrier.

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

Just wondering whether they have been defending this position since before the Wall was put in place as this great barrier.

My mistake. That's was what I was trying to answer. I don't think there has ever been explicit mention of anything preceding the wall at that location. Like we(you and I) mentioned with the modifications after the Night's King, I got the impression that everything was torn down , with the notable exception of the Night Fort.

There was talk about Moat Caillin possibly being an earlier wooden 'wall' in this thread though.

[Efilnikufesin]

My mistake. That's was what I was trying to answer. I don't think there has ever been explicit mention of anything preceding the wall at that location. Like we(you and I) mentioned with the modifications after the Night's King, I got the impression that everything was torn down , with the notable exception of the Night Fort.

There was talk about Moat Caillin possibly being an earlier wooden 'wall' in this thread though.

Well, maybe we are not far off, but misunderstanding each other, not really looking for them to be a wall, just a soundly defensible castle.

[Efilnikufesin]

If no one minds me pointing out an interesting quote in a Jon reread.

Every morning they had trained together, since they were big enough to walk; Snow and

Stark, spinning and slashing about the wards of Winterfell, shouting and laughing,

sometimes crying when there was no one else to see. They were not little boys when they

fought, but knights and mighty heroes. “I’m Prince Aemon the Dragonknight,” Jon

would call out, and Robb would shout back, “Well, I’m Florian the Fool.” Or Robb would

say, “I’m the Young Dragon,” and Jon would reply, “I’m Ser Ryam Redwyne.”

That morning he called it first. “I’m Lord of Winterfell!” he cried, as he had a hundred

times before. Only this time, this time, Robb had answered, “You can’t be Lord of

Winterfell, you’re bastard-born. My lady mother says you can’t ever be the Lord of

Winterfell.”

I thought I had forgotten that. Jon could taste blood in his mouth, from the blow he’d

taken.

[Tyryan Lannister]

Was digging around looking for parallels between the Frost Giants of Norse Mythology and the White Walkers and came across talk of people seeking them out for information about a winter signalling the end of times,'fimbulvetr'. I can't recall if we covered this previously in mythology discussions or not, but I think the last sentence fits too perfectly with the current state of westeros.

Fimbulvetr is the harsh winter that precedes the end of the world and puts an end to all life on Earth. Fimbulwinter is three successive winters where snow comes in from all directions, without any intervening summer. During this time, there will be innumerable wars and ties of blood will no longer be respected: the next-of-kin will lie together and brothers will kill brothers.^[1]

^{Straight from wikipedia : http://en.wikipedia....ki/Fimbulvinter}

On the bolded part: Sounds strangely familiar to me... :cool4:

[mrazny]

Sorry, this will be a bit of a thought dump, but I'm stuck with catching up every two or three days I think....

The dagger, and it's super cold-ness. Heat or the lack of heat radiates as well. If I recall my thermodynamics correctly, its an oddity where it's not just the surrounding air getting an abrupt amount a heat, and it's just the air transferring, but that to a certain proximity and exponential reduction of intensity, the heat transfer bypasses the air. So it doesn't have to pass through the handle to get to Grenn's skin, since the blade won't be all that far from his hand. Also, if you look at the nightwatch daggers getting made from valyrian steel under the direction and advice of GRRM, the handle is actually thin twine-like rope, not wood. Not all that important, but it was mentioned since last time...

Eddard talking about the Hell reserved for the Starks of Winterfell. Please don't forget that it's common for people to refer to their hardships as being in hell, and don't forget that Ned never wanted to be Lord, and has lamented his fate in a few places. He takes his lordship with no pleasure, and views that particular moment as being Lord first and father second. This personifies his role as its own special hell.

I believe it was fantasy that expounded on Ghosts howl. But yes, all that confirms is that he didn't hear it return, not that his howl was projected and would've been heard by people standing around him.

On the White Walkers, and not being dead, and Sword of the Mid-Afternoon's something other; my pet thought of corrupted (cursed) men still has it's loose ground to stand on :)

And the Faerie and the Sidhe and all of that...

Here's the primary portion of my 60% in my signature. We need textual links. Stories remain stories until they directly reflect on the modern active current events being portrayed in the novels. I don't have to stretch very far to discredit GRRM's mentioning of the Sidhe, which for devil's advocate sake I will expound in a bit. In all of these cases, at best its a parallel, and will never be the hidden key left to only mythology and history nuts. It's a reflection, and possibly a way to connect event A with event B when no readily available logic fits quite in the murky presentation. The way it reverberates within Old Nan's stories, or within the subtext of the histories has meaning when actually present on the page with our heroes/villains/povs/etc. It might be a nice potential, but we aren't there yet. The Starks thus far have been cold men of Law. For the Starks to 100% be related to the WW's we have to be presented the commonalities. We don't have enough of the WW's to say if they are bound by honor, bound by duty etc. Redirect the Faerie and Tam Lim talk with how it can connect thus stories with our actual 300AL plot, not connect stories with stories. This is what the most skeptic of the other commentors are picking up on, and it is something that can be addressed better.

I'm not saying that there is no chance of a parallel with the mythology of the Faerie, I'd just request some more grounding.

On the Sidhe... Have you even been a director? Dealing with Actors is not an unfair comparison to dealing with Artists and Photographers. It's about how *they* interpret it, 100%. GRRM is telling the artist what the artist needs to hear to create the image that GRRM wants. It doesn't matter what is said, so long as the image is closest to what GRRM wants. Inspirational Art Direction is simply not strong enough to connect only pieces in the background and *make* it the foreground. By all means don't stop, but as someone on this thread that isn't a hard case pessimist, its not as strong as you think, at least not yet.

[Black Crow]

I read the interview about the email but I just can't leave the idea of them being something ghost-like alone.

A people without a culture, so doesn't that mean they have no history( or maybe don't remember it)? Isn't Culture mainly traditions that are based on how things were done long ago (history)?

They don't have a culture but they go to war for the same reasons men do, gain.

I think if we could nail down what it is they want to gain, we could understand them better - so ofcourse - we'll probably never find that out.

I'm not so sure that this business of them not having a culture should be taken quite so literally. Was the interviewer seriously expecting GRRM to sit back and describe a race who insist on eating their eggs sunny side up, go to ball games every Saturday, engage in elaborate courtship rituals and produce great works of literature - or whatever? Or was GRRM simply dismissing the question as not relevant?

After all he has now told us, subsequent to that interview, that we are going to learn a lot more about them - and the links to the Children.

[Black Crow]

Well, it was stated in the books that the defensibility from the south was removed because of the incident with the Night's King, so I would assume every castle along the wall before that was defensible with walls in all directions.

Er no... no mention of walls (destroyed or otherwise) in the story of the Nights King and no mention of a wall when Bran and his party get there, but what we do get is:

"It was the first castle on the Wall, and the largest." But it had also been the first abandoned...That was 200 years ago

Seems pretty clear that the castles came after the Wall, and perhaps long after the Wall.

[Eyron]

It is mentioned in Jon's POV that the Nightfort is twice as old as Castle Black. And it was the first castle on the Wall. [missed that BC already said this...]

But we don't know when most of the other Castles were built, we only know that the Deep Lake was built recently by Good Queen Alysanne (and as mentioned Castle Black).

[Eyron]

About the Others' culture, didn't George say: I don't think they have a culture. Or I'm not sure they have a culture.

I'll have to find the SSM to check this though.

ETA: “(We’ll learn more about their) history, certainly, but I don’t know about culture,”he said. “I don’t know if they have a culture.”

The webclip interview doesn't seem to work for me at the moment but it's supposed to be found here. Since I haven't been able to watch it properly I don't know if that is accurate. I found the link in the thread Others Roundup by Elaena, and I trust her to have checked it.

[Black Crow]

It is mentioned in Jon's POV that the Nightfort is twice as old as Castle Black. And it was the first castle on the Wall. [missed that BC already said this...]

But we don't know when most of the other Castles were built, we only know that the Deep Lake was built recently by Good Queen Alysanne (and as mentioned Castle Black).

Deep Lake was built by Queen Alysanne to replace the Nightfort 200 years ago, since the Nightfort was too big for its garrison. Its interesting that the decline of the Nights Watch should be so dramatic. Granted it was falling in numbers at the time but this was a matter of downsizing to a new build fort just seven miles away rather than pulling out entirely, which suggests that just 200 years ago all of the forts had proper garrisons.

[Stark@heart]

About the Others' culture, didn't George say: I don't think they have a culture. Or I'm not sure they have a culture.

I'll have to find the SSM to check this though.

ETA: “(We’ll learn more about their) history, certainly, but I don’t know about culture,”he said. “I don’t know if they have a culture.”

The webclip interview doesn't seem to work for me at the moment but it's supposed to be found here. Since I haven't been able to watch it properly I don't know if that is accurate. I found the link in the thread Others Roundup by Elaena, and I trust her to have checked it.

This far along in the series, if GRRM doesn't see a culture for them, then I don't think their going to get one.

Their "history" or more likely " what is known " about them, meaning what has been observed ( and possibly a reason or beginning) will be revealed by BR.

They are no doubt very magical or magic based beings - based on their armor as described in the book and the way they die. We've also seen them use a form of necromancy (blood magic?) to raise up wrights and they can mayhaps affect the weather, like causing snowstorms or misty/foggy conditions- as in "Does the Cold bring them or do they bring the Cold"

I don't think we'll learn anymore about them than we've been told about the COTF or Giants or the ancient history of the Westeros.

Smoke and mirrors ( Old Nan's stories ) help to keep the mystery alive - I think GRRMs final answer to alot of our questions will be -" it's magic".

[Priormuir Fergus]

This brings something to mind for me that I had wondered back when I first read about it, which is, namely, are the Others and wights able to pass the Wall while it still stands? Now, we know that at least two wights were able to pass the Wall...Othor and Jafer...but were they only able to pass because they were escorted through by the Night's Watch? On the other hand, we have Coldhands, who is unable to pass the Black Gate, even if he were to be escorted by a black brother. Is there a difference there, or is the Black Gate somehow special in ways the other gates are not (other than the obvious)?

Why haven't the two corpses in the cold cells been active? While I believe the Others raise the wights, it doesn't appear to me that the Others have to be within particularly close proximity to them in order to do so. Do the Wall's spells stop them?

I've wondered about this too. Coldhands isn't able to enter into the CoFs cave either. Is it possible that the wall is only a physical barrier to the wights?

[Black Crow]

This far along in the series, if GRRM doesn't see a culture for them, then I don't think their going to get one.

Their "history" or more likely " what is known " about them, meaning what has been observed ( and possibly a reason or beginning) will be revealed by BR.

They are no doubt very magical or magic based beings - based on their armor as described in the book and the way they die. We've also seen them use a form of necromancy (blood magic?) to raise up wrights and they can mayhaps affect the weather, like causing snowstorms or misty/foggy conditions- as in "Does the Cold bring them or do they bring the Cold"

I don't think we'll learn anymore about them than we've been told about the COTF or Giants or the ancient history of the Westeros.

Smoke and mirrors ( Old Nan's stories ) help to keep the mystery alive - I think GRRMs final answer to alot of our questions will be -" it's magic".

I'm also reminded of Herman Goering's reported remark that when people start talking about culture he reached for his revolver...

It all depends how GRRM is defining culture. As I said above, culture can relate to lifestyle as in cooking eggs sunnyside up etc... or it can relate to artistic culture; literature, art and so on. GRRM may simply have meant that they don't go in much for artistic expression.

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

I've wondered about this too. Coldhands isn't able to enter into the CoFs cave either. Is it possible that the wall is only a physical barrier to the wights?

Nothing is impossible.

But, I think there's more to it than just a physical barrier. We've seen the magical barriers at Storm's End and the CotF Cave... I say it stands to reason that the greatest strategic defensive fortification of all time (the Wall, of course....), having been constructed with super-natural means, shall also possess supernatural defenses.

As I've oft said in here... I find the fact that Coldhands is warded from both the cave and the Wall to be telling. I think that's the best circumstantial evidence that the Children had a hand in building the Wall.

[alienarea]

Just a thought: Have we seen Coldhands at night?

Maybe he is a WW at night (serving the TGO?) and Coldhands by day?

[Efilnikufesin]

Just a thought: Have we seen Coldhands at night?

Maybe he is a WW at night (serving the TGO?) and Coldhands by day?

I would rule it out (can't be positive) just due to the amount of time Bran and co. spent with him.

[alienarea]

I would rule it out (can't be positive) just due to the amount of time Bran and co. spent with him.

Thought about that as well but Coldhands killing the Night Watch members who were traitors in his opinion is not that different from the WW killing Royce. And the WW that got killed by Sam probably ignored him to kill the other (no pun) Night Watch members because Sam said his vow in front of the weirwood.

Continuing that thought the WWs might be Stark wargs that "died". Except that Stark wargs for reasons unknown (due to the Night King) don't die and don't leave their body to merge with their animals, i.e. they become a Coldhands type of being. That would result in GRRM fooling us with the Varamyr prologue regarding Jon, would spare us the Jon resurrection dilemma (he would simply rise as a WW), explain his dream with the Night Watch shooting flaming arrows, and allow us to see the Land of Always Winter throgh his POVs. And Ghost wouldn't need to die.

[alienarea]

It's doubtful that the Other was ignoring Sam in any sense other than determining that Small Paul represented the most immediate threat. If Sam hadn't have struck when the Other was distracted by Small Paul, Sam would have been as dead as the horse the Other was riding.

Not sure I'm grasping where you're leading. Are you saying that Coldhands is a Stark wight? Or that dead Starks rise as Others when they're not properly buried?

Last train of thought was that Stark wargs don't die but become Coldhands-like during day and WWs in the night.

And if we include time travel and or subspace rifts the fourth knife Jon didn't feel might have been Sam's dragonglass dagger ;-)))