David J. Peterson Creating Valyrian Language

[boojam]

Again, High Valyrian is certainly dead. It is taught as a learned language. Compare it to Latin in Medieval Times, nobility knew Latin, but Latin was never a native language or a mother tongue. So it is unlikely to produce an accent.

In any case you bring your own accent to Latin (or High Valyrian in this case)

Well , George has yet to go into, if he ever will.

But Dany's 'mother tongue, would, one would guess be what ever low Valyrian they spoke in Braavos since Ser Darry must have hired Braavosi for the household, it's still not clear in the books just why Viserys and Dany were driven out. One supposes Darry would have found Valyrian sympathizers in Braavos (or at least George implies the free cities were refuges for Valyrian survivors of the Doom).

Well no matter I suppose Dany would have spoken High Valyrian with a Low Valyrian accent!

(So Pope Francis speaks Latin with a Spanish accent? Or is there an Argentinian Spanish accent?)

It makes one wonder if the Targaryan court spoke only High Valyrian?

(I am supposing not in Georges world.)

Tho we have an example in ours.

My readings tell me that most Japanese could not understand Emperor Hirohito's Koshitsu Yogo, imperial court Japanese , surrender speech in 1945 , tho they all knew what it meant.

I doubt the Imperial house of Japan nowdays uses that as the 'mother tongue' , tho I suppose, maybe, the young imperials have it as a learned language.

[The hairy bear]

One supposes Darry would have found Valyrian sympathizers in Braavos (or at least George implies the free cities were refuges for Valyrian survivors of the Doom).

Precisely Braavos is the only free city that was never a Valyrian colony, and was made of refugees and fugitives hiding from the empire. They may have some animosity towards them, although many centuries have passed since the Doom.

(So Pope Francis speaks Latin with a Spanish accent? Or is there an Argentinian Spanish accent?)

It's one of the most marked and recognisable accents that exist in Spanish.

[boojam]

It's one of the most marked and recognisable accents that exist in Spanish.

Tho language is a funny thing.

I know a young lady who's father is American and mother Vietnamese.

This takes place in a large USA city.

She works (well used to work)in a mom and pop video store (all those are gone now) , the owner was Vietnamese.

She spoke perfect American English, well no surprise.

But then one day I heard her speaking Vietnamese to some Vietnamese customers.

I asked the owner if she spoke Vietnamese with an accent, he said she absolutely did not, perfectly bilingual.

Also have friend who came to the US from Germany when he was 16 , maybe that's young enough, but he speaks perfect unaccented American English, except for some reason he pronounces gas ... gaz.

I have read that the famous Irish explorer Captain Sir Richard Burton spoke 12 languages, unaccented.

He spoke Arabic so well that he was the second westerner to sneak into Mecca.

We English speakers can pick up French, Italian and German accents (others) pretty well (tho like most Americans I very embarrassed by my poor German (which I used to speak , badly), my caveman Italian, and I don't even try my primitive French in Paris (outside Paris, yes) seem to be like the Italians , who just don't seem to give a damn.

Flustered by the Benelux countries were it seems everybody speaks perfect English!

[Aedan Stormrage]

It's one of the most marked and recognisable accents that exist in Spanish.

Yeah, it's mostly not speaking like a Caribbean.

[Padraig]

Well , George has yet to go into, if he ever will.

But Dany's 'mother tongue, would, one would guess be what ever low Valyrian they spoke in Braavos since Ser Darry must have hired Braavosi for the household

Not necessarily at all. He could easily have hired Westerosi (or Braavosi who knew the tongue) because he would want them to know the tongue used in their realm. The fact that Dany talked to Viserys in the Common Tongue suggests that is the normal language they spoke.

[boojam]

Not necessarily at all. He could easily have hired Westerosi (or Braavosi who knew the tongue) because he would want them to know the tongue used in their realm. The fact that Dany talked to Viserys in the Common Tongue suggests that is the normal language they spoke.

Yes it makes sense , since the idea , well Viserys's idea was to return to Westeros, where I am sure the Targaryens would have had to speak common tongue. We already know in commerce plenty of Braavosi spoke the common tongue. (As English has now become the Lingua franca , alas poor France!)

Yet knowing Viserys he would have insisted Dany learn fluent High Valyrian. In fact George has given the evidence that , I don't know how many, Westerosi spoke Valyrian. Except for the Dothraki all her inner circle know Valyrian to one degree or another.

Still when fleeing to refuge in the Free Cities it would have been an advantage to speak low Valyrian.

After all the FM insist that Arya learn low Valyrian as part of her training.

[Abaddon]

I believe it is mentioned that Tyrion was educated in High Valyrian (which will come in handy, heh heh). Not sure how much of reading/writing/speaking/comprehending that covers or if he could be called fluent, I don't remember if the books went into that sort of detail or not.

Anyway, it would seem that Westerosi nobility were likely educated in High Valyrian which would mean it would be a court language in Westeros, at least under the Targaryans and immediately after.

[Padraig]

When people say "court language" if they mean "language normally spoken at court", i'd be rather skeptical of the idea that it was Valyrian. In historic Europe, the educated may have known Latin but it wasn't the language spoken in court.

So people like Tyrion would know Valyrian but i'd be surprised if it was the norm for nobles.

Just because the Targaryens had Valyrian origins, doesn't mean they spoke Valyrian all the time. They left the place a long time ago. And they wouldn't want to be seen as very remote from the normal people. They took up the religion of Westeros also.

[Abaddon]

You're right, "court language" is much more specific and not a good term to use here. Still, it is hard to say whether it was common or rare or somewhere in-between for Westerosi nobility to be educated in High Valyrian. Is there something from the books I am forgetting where this was stated in more explicit detail, or is it just that we know Tyrion does and have no idea if that's common or not?

I'd imagine if this is something Tyrion learned on his own, it'd be an indication it was unusual. If he was tutored in it as a matter of course (and maybe he happened to excel in it due to natural language ability), then not so unusual.

[boojam]

When people say "court language" if they mean "language normally spoken at court", i'd be rather skeptical of the idea that it was Valyrian. In historic Europe, the educated may have known Latin but it wasn't the language spoken in court.

So people like Tyrion would know Valyrian but i'd be surprised if it was the norm for nobles.

Just because the Targaryens had Valyrian origins, doesn't mean they spoke Valyrian all the time. They left the place a long time ago. And they wouldn't want to be seen as very remote from the normal people. They took up the religion of Westeros also.

We do have an example of 'court language' in this universe.

When in 1945 Japanese Emperor Hirohito recorded his famous 'surrender' message he spoke only court Japanese Koshitsu Yogo.

All, well most, Japanese had never heard an Emperor speak before, but very few could make out what he was saying.

Tho apparently enough non-court Japanese came through that the message was clear, the shock was great.

I don't know what the modern Japanese royals do about Koshitsu Yogo, in time I am sure it will fade away.

True we don't know enough about the the culture of Valyria (5000 years worth of history there George!).

We don't even know if there was a Valyrian court, since they did not call themselves an Empire.

So probably no court Valyrian.

There seem to , for sure have been High Born Valyrians.

Aegon I Targaryen had no problem calling himself King.

[A funny thought , if Aegon in the books is really a Targaryen, and he spoke court Valyrian, then , possibly!, Daenerys , if she spoke court Valyrian would be only person on GRRM planet he could speak 'court Valyrian to'!]

[Padraig]

Is there something from the books I am forgetting where this was stated in more explicit detail, or is it just that we know Tyrion does and have no idea if that's common or not?

I don't think you are forgetting anything major. D&E stories maybe? I just don't see any suggestion that the Targaryens commonly spoke Valyrian amongst themselves. They certainly may know it though, as you say.

One criticism of GRRM's world is that there is no High Culture (like there would have been in Japan). The peasants and the highborn both listen to the same music etc. Its not something that bothers me but I did find it an interesting observation. But, if there is no High Culture, I don't expect there is a language difference. IMO,its not the kind of world GRRM wanted to explore.

The idea of the Freehold of Valyria always did intrigue me though.

[boojam]

The idea of the Freehold of Valyria always did intrigue me though.

Me too.

5000 years is a long time (really long time , being that GRRM's alternate universe Earth seems to have the same length of day , he has never given the planet where Westeros and Essos and other lands reside a name, George's World?).

Valyria seemed a unified culture, I mean George sort of paint's them as GRRM's universe's Romans. Roads , cities, built out of stuff medieval Westeros can't make anymore (and yes dragons) but a lot of implied technology. A military might 10 times longer than the Romany Empire. Know not much about their culture , which seemed high, yet slavery? (Yeah Rome had slavery, but the Valyrians seemed a higher culture even with trappings of sword and sandal).

A 'Feehold' has slaves?

A confederation of kingdoms, seems so, yet when they went to war , a unified and unstoppable military might, like high Roman Empire. One general or a committee? I can't think of anything quite like it on our Earth. Sure there were allied armies in the 20th century (other centuries), but even they had a unified command .

Excluding the Doom seems they would still be in charge, and without the Targaryens eventually conquered Westeros which they left alone , for mysterious reasons, for 5000 years.

Well maybe George will tell us someday?

[Padraig]

Well maybe George will tell us someday?

It will be interesting to see what is in the World Book.

Whether it was as simple as Westeros been seen as a bunch of barbarians and too much trouble for what they were worth (like how the Roman's failed to conquer Germania).

[Aedan Stormrage]

I think it's a fair guess to imagine that High Valyrian is taught to nobility in Westeros, Arya seems to have had some instruction and Tyrion too. So I don't think it's just something weird about Tyrion, I think it was the norm as it was the norm in Europe to learn Latin.

GRRM does make it a rather "plastic" concept that of "knowing Valyrian", but, so far, there's no reason for thinking someone could be "native" to it these days.

[Abaddon]

Peterson has an update after last night's episode: http://www.dothraki.com/2013/04/qilonario-geron/

[Aedan Stormrage]

Also you can check this great transcription attempt here: http://jdm314.livejournal.com/196669.html#t686141

It's the best one there is, until we have David's own, hehe.

[Abaddon]

Peterson blog post on last night's episode: http://www.dothraki....n-keliton-issa/

[EDIT] I love the care that has been put into this... here's a great insight into Dany's reveal she knows Valyrian:

Of note here: the word for dragon, zaldrīzes. Also, buzdari is stressed on the second syllable even though the a is not long because this isn’t actually a High Valyrian word: It’s an Astapori word that Dany is using on purpose. The High Valyrian word for slave is dohaeriros (whose root you may recognize), but the word they use in Astapor is buzdar, which has its roots in Ghiscari. Dany uses his own word so he’ll know that she knows. (And, by the way, since it’s a borrowing, it goes into the borrowed declension class, which means its accusative ends in -i.) And, indeed, Kraznys now gets it:

It's worth reading the entire thing.

[Abaddon]

Some good responses on this blog post from David, here's one that's relevant to this thread:

This is the sense I get, but going back through A Dance with Dragons, there are a lot of people speaking “High Valyrian” that I wouldn’t expect to. I would, though, expect the Targaryen household to specifically maintain High Valyrian for speaking at home (this may, in fact, have been mentioned in the books), so it doesn’t seem unlikely that her first language was High Valyrian, along with Common (since they lived in Westeros). She probably learned a lot from Viserys, and also as she moved along over in Essos.

And High Valyrian is still spoken in Astapor. I think a better analogy is the fusHaa and ‘amiiya of Arabic rather than Latin and the Romance languages. People still “speak” Quranic Arabic, but only if they have to. Everyone learns it in school. Everyone will hear it in formal situations. But it’s not the language that anyone speaks. I’m not sure if this will make sense, but it still works very efficiently in the Middle East. You can get by with al-fusHaa. People will think you sound strange, but they’ll understand it.

For the sounds, almost all of the sounds were gleaned form the names in the books. I added one or two here to fill out the system, but it mostly came from GRRM. And, yes, I started there for High Valyrian, but one need not if one is creating a language.

[boojam]

Some good responses on this blog post from David, here's one that's relevant to this thread:

"She probably learned a lot from Viserys, and also as she moved along over in Essos."

I must not be the only one who mentioned that her brother was nearly 10 when they left KL and her brother would have known and taught High Valyrian to Dany.

" Targaryen household to specifically maintain High Valyrian for speaking at home ...."

Somebody jumped me in a thread somewhere , sometime, saying Valyrian was Dany's 'learned' language to distinguish it from her "Mother Tounge" ... I guess S3E4 settles that issue.

[Abaddon]

New post for Kissed By Fire: http://www.dothraki....4/perzo-vujita/

Spoiler: he liked Grey Worm's rendition of Valyrian. A lot.