Jon Snow is Azor Ahai (the text proofs)

[Ingelheim]

That's a brilliant theory, right?

I agree and I'm almost a 100% sure that Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. But when I thought about the fire I remembered the burn that he got on his hand when he fought the other to save Mormont... that is confusing because when Dany put one of her eggs in the fire her hands got absolutely no burning marks while one of her handmaidens (I can't remember which one) got a nasty burn. So, following this line, Jon's hand shouldn't have burnt, should it?

Martin said that what happened with Dany and the dragons was absolutely outstanding, and the Targaryen are not immune to fire. So Jon could be a Targaryen.

[Gi_Varotti]

I missed that bit. Thanks :)

So Jon not being immune to fire makes me start to dislike the idea of a funeral pyre...

[bardstark]

the ONLY thing Dany has done has woken dragons. i think her function is to bring the dragons (and magic) back in the world. she has not fought in any battles, she is a terrible ruler (needs to read some Macchiavelli), she HAS the madness - you can tell by her paranoia, and all of the people who think she is great,i.e. like Rhaegar, are down n out, desperate knights and an old maester. Jon is much more Rhaegar-like. Sullen, a reader, but also a man of action, does seemingly dishonorable things for honorable ends.

Jon is obviously AAR.

AAR is the localized myth of the Westerosi PTWP.

As per the three dragons, I cannot say. But I don't think Dany will ever see the shores of Westeros.

[I Am The Grass]

When I read that Mel was seeing 'Snow' I automatically assumed it was Jon due to the capitalization. I don't think its a printing error. Either GRRM put it there as a red herring to make people think its Jon or he meant Jon and only grammar Nazis like me caught it on their first read.

[The Sunset King]

the ONLY thing Dany has done has woken dragons. i think her function is to bring the dragons (and magic) back in the world. she has not fought in any battles, she is a terrible ruler (needs to read some Macchiavelli), she HAS the madness - you can tell by her paranoia, and all of the people who think she is great,i.e. like Rhaegar, are down n out, desperate knights and an old maester. Jon is much more Rhaegar-like. Sullen, a reader, but also a man of action, does seemingly dishonorable things for honorable ends.

Jon is obviously AAR.

AAR is the localized myth of the Westerosi PTWP.

As per the three dragons, I cannot say. But I don't think Dany will ever see the shores of Westeros.

The dragons are important in the evidence in favor of Daenerys, however they are not the entire issue. She has more foreshadowing and evidence in her favor as an AA candidate than all other notable options combined. Two of the more substantial problems with the non-Daenerys options so far are the following:

1. Many of the arguments in favor in them rely on interpretations of occurrences that are much less certain and require lowering the bar.

2. A very large amount of the arguments for these candidates are highly speculative and have not transpired yet. Preferring certain choices would thus require assuming that particular non-Daenerys candidates are more probable than other ones because they are supposedly more important to the story, or are "the main character."

GRRM has confirmed that she will be coming to Westeros at some point, though what will happen then remains to be seen. A significant amount of the story apparently was intended to take place after her arrival back when the time leap was still Martin's plan.

[LadyMary]

That's a brilliant theory, right?

I agree and I'm almost a 100% sure that Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. But when I thought about the fire I remembered the burn that he got on his hand when he fought the other to save Mormont... that is confusing because when Dany put one of her eggs in the fire her hands got absolutely no burning marks while one of her handmaidens (I can't remember which one) got a nasty burn. So, following this line, Jon's hand shouldn't have burnt, should it?

I'm trying to remember ( don't have my copy of ADWD with me) but I recall that Daenerys suffered burns caused by riding Drogon after the incident in the pit. Her fireproof-ness while heating the dragon eggs and their eventual birth was magic and a singular miraculous event (SSM). The point is, she wasn't completely Unburnt - just in that one event.

Other pure blooded Targs were quite burnable, hence Aerion died drinking Wildfire , Viserys died from molten gold frying his brains, and several Targs died in the fire at Summerhall. Assuming Jon's a Targ on his father's side, it's not inconsistent with other burnable Targs. If he his resurrected in flame due to some blood magic of Melisandre, then there will be another miraculous (re)birth in the flames for another descendant of Aerys and Rhaella.

[jabbadagutt08]

1 thing i think is often overlooked which compels me to believe Jon maybe is AAR is that when Melisandre is performing the ceremony where Stannis forges his 'Lightbringer', she talks of the fabled sword being 'drawn from fire.' Much like Longclaw is brought forth from the fire in The Lord Commander's Tower after the fire which killed the wights in aGoT. I think Longclaw will become Lightbringer. But obviously we need a Nissa-Nissa style sacrifice first.

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

I try to gather all the proofs that suggest that Jon Snow is Azor Ahai reborn (and The Prince Who Was Promised)

So far I have:

Bowen Marsh's salty tears on Jon’s wounds provide the smoke and salt.

From Jon’s dream:

Mel’s flames: S not s

Mel’s words:

What I have forgotten?

What would you like to add?

Assuming R'hollor is legit, it is a prophecy. With enough work, I'm sure you can fit a dozen characters into the prophecy. Prophecies are known to be non-specific. It won't be known until it is over.

My only issue with Jon being AAR is that I can't see him as a champion of R’hllor. He's a northerner through and through, a champion of the old gods. Of course, I have no idea what the future holds for him or whether he'll undergo a fundamental shift in allegiance, but for now I have trouble seeing it.

There's still the possibility, as I've seen mentioned around these forums, that Azor Ahai is just a bastardization (no pun intended) of the Last Hero myth, and that this "savior" figure isn't really a fire champion at all.

Considering the rather convincing case Patchface is the Drowned God's man, I don't think that matters too much.

[Draxus]

I try to gather all the proofs that suggest that Jon Snow is Azor Ahai reborn (and The Prince Who Was Promised)

So far I have:

Bowen Marsh's salty tears on Jon’s wounds provide the smoke and salt.

From Jon’s dream:

Mel’s flames: S not s

Mel’s words:

What I have forgotten?

What would you like to add?

He has woken no dragons out of stone. Sorry if someone already replied with this. I only just read your opening post.

[LadyMary]

I don't think the specific god or gods matter. The magic matters, and it seems to be part of nature. Who the individuals believe created the magic is just a matter what religion they practice, but it's the same magic and I don't think any one god or religion has a monopoly on its use. Some of the magic of the First Men and the Children of the Forest (worshipers of the old gods) built the Wall long before R'hollor was known in Westeros, but a priestess of R'hollor is more powerful at the Wall than anywhere else she's ever been. Patchface has the power of prophesy, just like the Ghost of High Heart, but one was drowned and "saved" by the Drowned God and the other is presumably a worshiper of the old gods...

Anyway, either Melisndre's deluded and the old gods are feuling her visions and magic, or it just doesn't matter which god is worshiped; what matters is the elements involved in the magic.

[jabbadagutt08]

I highly doubt the prophecy can ever be interpreted that way, to be honest...

1. If longclaw is the Lightbringer, why doesn't it emit any heat (Lightbringer is a burning sword, after all)?

2. Was Longclaw drawn from a fire?

Longclaw was drawn from the fire in the lord commander's tower and Jon needs a Nissa Nissa before it will completely become Light bringer.

[Gi_Varotti]

When I read that Mel was seeing 'Snow' I automatically assumed it was Jon due to the capitalization. I don't think its a printing error. Either GRRM put it there as a red herring to make people think its Jon or he meant Jon and only grammar Nazis like me caught it on their first read.

If he did meant Jon I think I'm a nazi grammar as well. I had my suspicions but that "S" sort of confirmed to me that it's Jon.

I don't think Melisandre would get a Snow's vision just and only to alert her that he was in danger instead of pointing to her that Jon is AA.

And maybe she realized it and the book didn't show us because when Wick slahed at him, he acted like it wasn't him who had slashed Jon (I imagined Wick scaried and surprised at the same time after hitting Jon) and Jon has never being so bad at a sword fight, how could have his fingers grown so clumsy and stiff if not from a sort of magic? I know he's LC now and hasn't much time to practice but, c'mon, it's Jon. He has killed an other and he wouldn't "un-learn" how to fight...

What I mean is, what if Melisandre put a spell on him to hurry things up? Specially after Ramsay's letter where he says that Stannis is dead (is he?).

I'm not sure, it's just a thought.

“Why?”

“For the Watch.” Wick slashed at him again. This time Jon caught his wrist and bent his arm back until he dropped the dagger. The gangling steward backed away, his hands upraised as if to say, Not me, it was not me. Men were screaming. Jon reached for Longclaw, but his fingers had grown stiff and clumsy.

Somehow he could not seem to get the sword free of its scabbard.

I'm trying to remember ( don't have my copy of ADWD with me) but I recall that Daenerys suffered burns caused by riding Drogon after the incident in the pit. Her fireproof-ness while heating the dragon eggs and their eventual birth was magic and a singular miraculous event (SSM). The point is, she wasn't completely Unburnt - just in that one event.

Other pure blooded Targs were quite burnable, hence Aerion died drinking Wildfire , Viserys died from molten gold frying his brains, and several Targs died in the fire at Summerhall. Assuming Jon's a Targ on his father's side, it's not inconsistent with other burnable Targs. If he his resurrected in flame due to some blood magic of Melisandre, then there will be another miraculous (re)birth in the flames for another descendant of Aerys and Rhaella.

Thanks! I don't have the book with me either now but I remember that Dany was 'raw' from riding Drogon but he burnt her in the pits but she's healing now and his hair is starting to grow again. She said to herself that this time her burns were worse than when she woke the dragons.

1 thing i think is often overlooked which compels me to believe Jon maybe is AAR is that when Melisandre is performing the ceremony where Stannis forges his 'Lightbringer', she talks of the fabled sword being 'drawn from fire.' Much like Longclaw is brought forth from the fire in The Lord Commander's Tower after the fire which killed the wights in aGoT. I think Longclaw will become Lightbringer. But obviously we need a Nissa-Nissa style sacrifice first.

Well, with Ygritte dead I just hope Ghost doesn't end up being Nissa Nissa. I can't bear seeing him dead! Could Nissa Nissa be Val?

But I don't think Longclaw is Lightbringer. Assuming it's really a sword (I don't think it is because I'm divided between it being Jon - with Rhaegar being AA; or The Night's Watch - Jon being AA and commanding the brothers) maybe it's/was under Winterfell's crypts or somewhere else with skulls because I believe this is the meaning of them in Melisandre's visions.

What if it ends up being one of the two swords forged from Ice? Oathekeeper and Joffrey's (I don't remember its name) were red.

[PatrickStormborn]

When I read that Mel was seeing 'Snow' I automatically assumed it was Jon due to the capitalization. I don't think its a printing error. Either GRRM put it there as a red herring to make people think its Jon or he meant Jon and only grammar Nazis like me caught it on their first read.

It certainly reads like a Red Herring, and I think GRRM is deliberately manipulating readers with the wording. She 'prays for a glimpse of Azor Ahai', but Jon Snow is not the only thing she sees: she sees visions of towers by the sea, a grey girl on a horse, a dragon, two people having sex, Bloodraven and Bran, etc. But Jon keeps being shown even when she asks for other things; she asks for the grey girl on a horse and Stannis, and yet Jon keeps being shown.

I don't buy the "Mel wants to kill Jon so she can resurrect him" crackpot theory either. If Mel is once again trying to force the prophecy, the chances are that it's not going to be right.

[Lady of Dragonstone]

Capital S or small s Snow, I dont know if Mel even really knows what she's doing. Maybe she's asking the wrong questions.

If Jon is AA, why did she never see his face before? Did she not see Stannis? I dislike her chapter in ADwD for this very reason. Seems to just be full of red herrings and GRRM wanting to throw us off the scent.

I'm still betting AA is Dany? Why else make her magically Fireproof and give her Dragons if not to fight Others (AA's job)

Sometimes, the obvious is boring, but makes sense from a writing point of view.

Maybe she did see Jon's face before, but she wouldn't have known who he was until she met him at the Wall. We didn't have her POV then, so we wouldn't have known that, and she isn't the type to give anything away. I think Mel WAS so convinced Stannis was AA that she was misinterpreting her fires. I think she is starting to realize Stannis is NOT AA. The skulls in her vision I thought meant the crypts of Winterfell, but I realize it could have meant the Red Keep, somewhere else entirely, be figurative or representative of something, or just be a red herring.

I never thought about the words of the NW being related to AA, but it is quite clever, guys. If Jon is AA, this is simply more affirmation. I don't think this would be a red herring, because it's not obvious, and as a rule , red herrings are usually pretty obvious. "I am the sword in the darkness... I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers..." The light that brings the dawn sounds a lot like Lightbringer, and a little like Dawn. Just sayin' ;)

There is more evidence that Dany is AA. However, that provides Jon with too many loose ends. Also, he has blood of the First Men, which certainly helps tie him to Last Hero, whereas Dany does not.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

It's funny that Melisandre never, not once, sees Dany.

Note that it isn't what she sees that's techincally incorrect; it's how she interprets it.

[Old-Growth]

It's funny that Melisandre never, not once, sees Dany.

Note that it isn't what she sees that's techincally incorrect; it's how she interprets it.

Tho' if she knew about the dragons she would be on team Dany so quickly it would make your head spin. Like Marwyn the Mage she would be on the next ship to Essos.

Her colleagues in Volantis certainly are persuaded, tho' it may be that they just think it is obvious given the reports of the dragons, and what they know of the prophecy. IIRC, we are not told of the Volantene priests reading their fires in search of confirmation. Is this GRRM being coy again?

Off what we can see Moqorro is better than Melisandre at reading the flames.Then again her claim to being best in her order may only apply to the ones in Asshai; she may not know/know of Moqorro. Or given her struggle to master this art she may be justly be proud of her accomplisment.

[Draxus]

bro Jon Snow is the Great Other. Sorry dude.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Tho' if she knew about the dragons she would be on team Dany so quickly it would make your head spin. Like Marwyn the Mage she would be on the next ship to Essos.

Her colleagues in Volantis certainly are persuaded, tho' it may be that they just think it is obvious given the reports of the dragons, and what they know of the prophecy. IIRC, we are not told of the Volantene priests reading their fires in search of confirmation. Is this GRRM being coy again?

Off what we can see Moqorro is better than Melisandre at reading the flames.Then again her claim to being best in her order may only apply to the ones in Asshai; she may not know/know of Moqorro. Or given her struggle to master this art she may be justly be proud of her accomplisment.

Perhaps. And yet, like I said, Dany never shows up in her fires. Again, what she sees is techically accurate; her fault is in how she interprets it. I too have to wonder how the red priests in Essos concluded that this prophecy was fulfilled by Dany. Did they draw conclusions based on learning that the dragons had hatched, or did they actually see Dany in their fires? Two very different things.

[Old-Growth]

It certainly reads like a Red Herring, and I think GRRM is deliberately manipulating readers with the wording. She 'prays for a glimpse of Azor Ahai', but Jon Snow is not the only thing she sees: she sees visions of towers by the sea, a grey girl on a horse, a dragon, two people having sex, Bloodraven and Bran, etc. But Jon keeps being shown even when she asks for other things; she asks for the grey girl on a horse and Stannis, and yet Jon keeps being shown.

But that was not what she asked for but rather how she recasts it after the fact. What she asked was "Show me Stannis. Show me your king." Those are not consistent demands if the current understanding hereabouts is correct; although she thinks they are. Small wonder that she did not see what she wanted to see.

Consult Winterfellian's posts from 25 August in this thread. Those give the quotes and analysis of the pertinent parts from Melisandre's chapter. Indeed all current parties to this thread should go back and read those posts.

[Old-Growth]

Perhaps. And yet, like I said, Dany never shows up in her fires. Again, what she sees is techically accurate; her fault is in how she interprets it. I too have to wonder how the red priests in Essos concluded that this prophecy was fulfilled by Dany. Did they draw conclusions based on learning that the dragons had hatched, or did they actually see Dany in their fires? Two very different things.

Agreed to that, but then I did say something similar in my post. :-):-)