Lyanna Stark (The Hypocrite)?

[Helgar]

Another thing we have to establish:

How Elia Martell felt about the whole ordeal.

The way I see it, her feelings on the matter could have ranged from conscious agreement and approval, to utter disapprobation and horror. She may have been an agreeing collaborator, agreeing to the whole thing and actually helping Lyanna and Rhaegar plan it out. And before one objects that this is so utterly inhuman as to be improbable, keep in mind the unique situation:

a. Elia's marriage was arranged. It is noted that Rhaegar was fond but not in love with her. Should we really assume that Elia herself was desperately in love with her husband, since all wives must be? Or simply because he was so handsome/ perfect, that every woman he comes across must adore him? Isn't it possible that Elia, like Rheagar, was "fond", but not overwealmingly in love, and, thus, felt less possessive of Rheager than many of us would feel of our romantic mates? Wouldn't it be possible that she saw him as more her friend and an individual whom she was partnered with for dynastic reasons, rather than someone whose romantic attentions she wanted exclusively for herself?

b. Elia's had produced only one heir, but her health was ailing and wouldn't allow her to have a second child. As the queen, Elia is basically a brood mare. She must bring forth Rheagar's sons into the world; this is her main job. In the past, it was generally considered necessary for a woman to have two children-- an heir and a "spare." Elia has only born one male child, and can't bear another. The pressure on her must have been tremendous; and I imagine it was accompanied by a certain dissaproval by some that she couldn't "fulfill her duties." (Jon Connington reflects upon Elia's inability to bear more children, and sees her as "unworthy" of Rhaegar.)

In such a scenario, having Lyanna, a healthy young woman to bear more children for her husband, may have seemed like a relief to Lyanna. Of course, the issue of Elia's own children being threatened may have come up, however, it seems likely that Rhaegar would have promised Elia that her firstborn child would get the preference. Furthermore, most people familiar with Lyanna could probably guess that she was good natured, and not interested in murdering/ usurping Elia's children from their rightful place on the throne.

Overall, Lyanna's desire to marry a man capable of fidelity was utterly normal. However, was her feeling discomfort with the prospect of Robert cheating on her, then running away with another woman's husband, evidence of hypocrisy on her part?

Again, I'd say that the answer depends upon Elia's attitude towards Rheagar running off with (and presumably making a second marriage to) Lyanna. Though it would seem improbable, given the unusual scenario, I'd actually say that Elia being generally approving-- even, heck, a knowing collaborator in the whole thing-- does not seem impossible. GRRM does love to subvert expectations, and every single POV we've heard of thus far generally seems to overlook Elia, dismiss her as insignificant, or view her as a woman who is weak/ unworthy/ unable to hold onto her man.

It would be if amusing if GRRM overturned these expectations by making Elia someone who not only approved of, but was a participant in Rhaegar and Lyanna's choice to run off together.

Remember the location of the tower of joy-- the Dornish mountains. And who'd know Dorne better than Elia? I've always suspected that she had a hand in providing Rhaegar and her new "sister wife" a place to run off to and hide out in.

I have a few problems with this theory. First, we know next to nothing about Elia so pretty much anything is possible, but theories like these seem tailormade to pass Rhaegar and Lyanna as the good guys. Everything was consentual, Elia agreed, maybe encouraged or suggested it, so there are no hard feelings between her and Rhaegar. We know Robert had some things to say about the whole thing, but Robert could be the bad guy who never really loved Lyanna because he slept around with other women, so we're OK on that front too. And the prophecy of course underlines the necessity of this affair, dispelling any doubt that Rhaegar and Lyanna were just two young lovers doing the right thing. It all feels like a big Hollywood edit on some movie to make the protagonists more likeable by not making them do anything morally questionable. I feel as though a little bit of the complexity of the characters is being sold in exchange for a nice love story with a bittersweet ending.

Secondly, this theory has always depended on too many hypotheticals. Elia's character needs to be exceptionally forbearing to be on board with something like this. The prophecy has to be involved and Elia has to be aware of Rhaegar's involvement in the prophecy, and take it seriously. Lyanna has to be aware of this extraordinarily awkward situation, where the wife of the man you're in love with actually hooks you up with her own husband! She has to be willing to be used for the sake of birthing the third dragon, and so at least somewhat privy to the whole prophecy stuff. There are so many ifs here, especially the highly unusual twist on Elia's personality, that make me very reluctant to believe it.

I am not entirely comfortable with this theory in any case. I was never a big fan of Rhaegar and I wouldn't like it very much if GRRM tried to pass him as the genuine good guy after all the controversy surrounding his character. The only thing that keeps Rhaegar's story from becoming the absolute cliche is that there is quite a bit of drama and tension in it, and that theory takes that drama and tension and transforms it to a high school romance story, with Rhaegar starring as the male lead, Lyanna the beautiful and impulsive female lead, Robert as the school bully, Jon Con as the insecure gay friend, and Elia as either the very kind and understanding girl friend, or the hysteric, possessive bitch (varying from theory to theory). It feels rather cheap.

[Quentyn Baratheon]

Furthermore, any additional child threaten the claims of Elia's children. You'd rather be cautious with that. "Too much dragons, is as bad as too few".

[Fire Eater]

@Queen Cersei I

I would also add that Elia kissed Ulmer (now teaching archery at Castle Black) when he was with the Kingswood Brotherhood along her way to KL to marry Rhaegar. Elia came from a culture where having a paramour was socially acceptable, and that could have been how she viewed Lyanna, as Rhaegar's paramour.

As to the main topic, Rhaegar taking a second wife is different from Robert's philandering with numerous women. Robert isn't being loyal to any woman while Rhaegar is at least being loyal to Lyanna

[Cat of the Canal Girl]

Presuming she ran of willingly with Rhaegar....In a way, what Lyanna did could almost be considered worse than Robert's whoring. Rhaegar was married.

Robert's whores, on the other hand, make their living off being whores. When a young, strong attractive great lord comes along and offers you his business, would they really be reluctant to give it? In most cases, they were probably ecstatic to service him and he paid well. Robert surely also fooled around with regular woman who weren't whores, but again as long as it's consensual activity with unmarried women, no one is doing anything wrong.

When I put aside my modern day ideals of what it means to be "engaged", I start to think Lyanna kind of wacky for expecting Robert to stay celibate when he is a horny teenager and has tons of women available. Perhaps Lyanna was setting her expectations for Robert too high because she was comparing him to Ned (Mr. Super Honorable to a fault)

[Quentyn Baratheon]

Hu? Ulmer even hurted The White Bull to stole this kiss to Elia (and some jewels).

This argument is more than weird.

[Fire Eater]

Hu? Ulmer even hurted The White Bull to stole this kiss to Elia (and some jewels).

This argument is more than weird.

She kissed Ulmer, I don't think it was forced, when she was on her way to marry Rhaegar. I was just pointing that out.

[Quentyn Baratheon]

So, hurting a kingsguard to steal a kiss is "not forced". Right....

[Winter's Knight]

So, hurting a kingsguard to steal a kiss is "not forced". Right....

Fire Eater means it wasn't forced on her.

[Quentyn Baratheon]

"While a member of the Brotherhood, according to Ulmer he once put an arrow through the hand of Lord Commander Gerold Hightower, the White Bull, in order to steal a kiss from a Dornish princess, most likely Elia Martell. He also stole her jewels and a chest of coins."

So, you got a member of an outlaw company who just hurt the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, then proceed to steal you and the kiss is "not forced on her". Sorry but HU?!

[Lyanna Stark]

Why is it hypocritical of Lyanna to go with a man she loved and felt loved her back, while Robert Baratheon would not? Rhaegar may have been married, but it was clearly a marriage of convenience and while he was fond of Elia, there is no indication that he loved her. If we assume that he did love Lyanna, why is she a hypocrite for choosing him over Robert?

Ned also remarks that Rhaegar didn't frequent brothels as far as he knew.

There's also a great difference, I think, in on the one hand taking a lover you really feel something for if you are in a marriage of convenience, or to whore around randomly knocking up every serving girl around.

The first is based on a need for real intimacy and love, the second is just having sex with a bunch of strangers.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

If she went with her own free will she was at least a hypocrite.

[Queen Cersei I]

You'd sacrifice a beautiful woman for a moderately attractive boar?

And now for some totally random Robert/ boar jokes:

That boar stuck Robert with the pointy end!

Being king was tough, and Robert said he could barely bear it. But in the end, he boar it quite well, I'd say.

Robert may have been killed by a filthy pig... but in the end, at least he can say he went out at the hands of family!

How did King Bob die? Of Boardom.

And, of course, Cersei and King Robert's wedding night:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLqgekTQbqk

[David of Kent]

I remember there being a passage in one of the books, do not remember which that Lyanna tells I think Ned the reason she does not want to marry Robert is because of his whoring ways. Then she herself goes off with a man she knows full well is already married to Elia. So I ask you all is Lyanna the biggest hypocrite for not marrying Robert because he would cheat on her, then runs off and possibly starts an affair with a married man?

Absolutely if that's true. Of course she could have reasoned it by saying that what she did, she did for love. This would be ignoring the fact that Robert REALLY loved whoring

[Winterfell is Burning]

Furthermore, any additional child threaten the claims of Elia's children. You'd rather be cautious with that. "Too much dragons, is as bad as too few".

Yep. At a worst case scenario, she would have demanded that Rhaegar takes her to Sunspear with the kids and later do his thing, rather than abandon the three of them with his mad father.

She has absolutely nothing to gain from a Rhaegar/Lyanna romance and risks everything- and, indeed, she did lose it all, because her husband couldn't control himself.

[ARYa_Nym]

Presuming she ran of willingly with Rhaegar....In a way, what Lyanna did could almost be considered worse than Robert's whoring. Rhaegar was married.

Robert's whores, on the other hand, make their living off being whores. When a young, strong attractive great lord comes along and offers you his business, would they really be reluctant to give it? In most cases, they were probably ecstatic to service him and he paid well. Robert surely also fooled around with regular woman who weren't whores, but again as long as it's consensual activity with unmarried women, no one is doing anything wrong.

When I put aside my modern day ideals of what it means to be "engaged", I start to think Lyanna kind of wacky for expecting Robert to stay celibate when he is a horny teenager and has tons of women available. Perhaps Lyanna was setting her expectations for Robert too high because she was comparing him to Ned (Mr. Super Honorable to a fault)

If it were modern day I think Robert would be like what Tiger Woods did to his wife. It's extremely embarrassing and I've always felt that he must have hated her on some level to do that to her.

I could accept falling for another. It sucks and shit happens. But fucking everybody? No. Plus, he could give me diseases. Of course sleeping with just one wrong person could do that but I think being such a ho heightens the chance.

[RedBean]

She wasn't a hypocrite because she only liked and eloped with one guy (assuming that she ran off willingly) while Robert was always off whoring with as many women as possible, even well into his marriage with Cersei. The plan wasn't poorly thought out perhaps, and they were being rather insensitive to Elia (though I do believe that Elia had some knowledge of their plans and at least understood why they felt they had to do it) but that doesn't make her a hypocrite. Lyanna wanted to love and respect someone and be loved and respected in return. She had that sort of love with Rhaegar, but Robert wouldn't have managed to stay true to her.

[Lady Winter Rose]

Ned also remarks that Rhaegar didn't frequent brothels as far as he knew.

Can you guarantee that Ned wasn't thinking: He was rapist and sick man, but I don't think he like his woman to consent on sex?

[Lyanna Stark]

Can you guarantee that Ned wasn't thinking: He was rapist and sick man, but I don't think he like his woman to consent on sex?

Did Ned strike you as being upset or angry with Rhaegar? No, he wasn't. If Rhaegar was so terrible and so awful, Ned would have thought of it, surely. He has no compunction about thinking ill of for instance Jaime Lannister. Why, in that case, would he be so quiet on Rhaegar if Rhaegar was essentially worse? Instead, Ned seems quietly respectful of Rhaegar and when he compares Rhaegar to his best friend ever, Robert Baratheon, Rhaegar comes out ahead.

That speaks for itself, I'd say.

[NotSoSilentSister]

Can you guarantee that Ned wasn't thinking: He was rapist and sick man, but I don't think he like his woman to consent on sex?

There are no guarantees, but that interpretation is somewhat implausible in the context of Ned's other reflections on Rhaegar. If he had really thought that, it would likely have coloured every other consideration of Rhaegar and it would have been much more obvious in Ned's POV.

[Dragonfish]

It all feels like a big Hollywood edit on some movie to make the protagonists more likeable by not making them do anything morally questionable. I feel as though a little bit of the complexity of the characters is being sold in exchange for a nice love story with a bittersweet ending.

Ok, let's get one thing straight:

If Rhaegar really did kidnap and rape Lyanna, then he's basically a bad guy. About as bad as Aerys. He wouldn't be a complex character, he'd just be a bad character. In contrast, if Lyanna ran off willingly with him, then theirs would be the story of two otherwise good people whose understandable desire to be happy together ends up sparking a devastating war. What exactly isn't morally complex about this? The elopement theory posits that well-intentioned deeds can lead to bad outcomes; the kidnapping theory posits that bad deeds lead to bad outcomes. Doesn't the latter strike you as more simplistic than the former? What exactly is more complex about a story in which both the king and his son, the main figures on the royalist side of the war, are basically evil?

Secondly, this theory has always depended on too many hypotheticals.

Not really. The theory is based on two facts and two hypotheticals.

Fact 1: Elia knew about the prophecy.

Hypothetical 1: Elia agreed with Rhaegar about the prophecy's importance.

Fact 2: Dornishpeople are more sexually permissive than other Westerosi.

Hypothetical 2: Elia's Dornish values would've made her more amenable to a second marriage on Rhaegar's part.

That's it. Not ironclad, I admit, but neither is it as speculative as you would make it out to be. People have formulated theories on less evidence than this.