Arya in Braavos, So Spake Martin

[rmholt]

Martin's not going to spend 2 books teaching Arya to be a Faceless Man, only to give her a Dragon, which makes the Faceless Man training irrelevant.

Nope. She's going to take out a high value target in an epic assassination. And what could be a more epic target than a dragon?

Marwyn. Or alternatively, the grey sheep.

I think she is a lot like Sandor - solid anger and a hole where her heart should be. She is learning everything she can learn to keep herself from getting hurt. I am more interested in her redemption than her action sequences, though I expect them to be as engrossing as they have been so far.

I find the execution of these developments impossible to try to predict, though.

[rmholt]

And the last we saw him he was at the end of a rope.

Hell, Brienne has been taken captive twice now. Very nearly raped, face chewed off and hung. And she's big as a house, strong as a mule, a trained fighter and a skilled swordsman. Arya wouldn't stand a chance in Westeros on her own.

She survived quite well so far. Her pack keeps dissolving but she carries on. She survived Gregor, Roose Bolton, Tywin Lannister, and more violence than most people in Westeros have encountered, and mostly as a commoner or in the company of a known band of "outlaws". Now she has some mad skillz and a deadly pack of wolves led by Nymeria. She could pwn Westeros any time she wanted. I agree it would take something monumental like a chance to be with Jon to bring her back.

[pig]

She survived quite well so far. Her pack keeps dissolving but she carries on. She survived Gregor, Roose Bolton, Tywin Lannister, and more violence than most people in Westeros have encountered, and mostly as a commoner or in the company of a known band of "outlaws".

She did all of this as a child though. See my initial comment in this thread (on page one).

Edited to add quote from page one:

That she could go it alone in war torn Westeros, at this point, is simply not believable. She slipped notice once because she was a child, but a girl the age she is now wouldn't slip notice; she would be raped. Repeatedly. By every mummer, sellsword and small town sicko that crossed her path.

[Sour Billy Tipton]

Arya's graduation from The Faceless Men will be one of the most intriguing parts of TWOW,(I believe she'll graduate at the end of book 6) they must have some interesting trial's to complete the training.

Perhaps GRRM feels there are so many fun concepts of different training stages he could come up with.

No matter what though, it's a good problem for him to have cause the reader will benefit. And it means Izembaro is going to be a great new character since I would assume he will see Arya through the rest of her training. And yes, I think Izembaro is a person not a place.

[CDXX]

I don't think her possible role at the Wall would be connected to facing wights. I think it will have something to do with Winterfell/The Wall, Jon, Boltons, etc.

I think there's some foreshadowing to this: http://asoiaf.wester...ny-flint-vol-2/

I too think she will meet up with Jon as well.

From aGOT

Jon messed up her hair. “I will miss you, little sister.”

Suddenly she looked like she was going to cry. “I wish you were coming with us.”

“Different roads sometimes lead to the same castle. Who knows?”

[Independent George]

I think she is a lot like Sandor - solid anger and a hole where her heart should be. She is learning everything she can learn to keep herself from getting hurt. I am more interested in her redemption than her action sequences, though I expect them to be as engrossing as they have been so far.

I agree, but... I don't think she's hit rock bottom yet. I think she's going to descend a lot further into darkness before she can begin to claw her way out of it - and that it's going to be painful in both directions.

I actually wonder if it ends up being Sandor who first starts to bring her back. It would feel somehow appropriate to both of their arcs - way more fitting than SanSan, at the very least.

[kissdbyfire]

I too think she will meet up with Jon as well.

From aGOT

Yeah, I just listened to that chapter this morning, and it reinforced this feeling.

[rmholt]

She did all of this as a child though. See my initial comment in this thread (on page one).

Edited to add quote from page one:

I read the OP. I dont happen to agree with it. Someone trained to kill who can change her appearance and who knows how to stay out of trouble and get out of trouble, having been tested by the best, is going to be fine. As far as I know raping is not limited to women over 16.

[rmholt]

I agree, but... I don't think she's hit rock bottom yet. I think she's going to descend a lot further into darkness before she can begin to claw her way out of it - and that it's going to be painful in both directions.

I actually wonder if it ends up being Sandor who first starts to bring her back. It would feel somehow appropriate to both of their arcs - way more fitting than SanSan, at the very least.

Graph 1: I totally agree. She is still growing. I wouldnt say she is in darkness - from her POV she is returning to the light - some power, self confidence, self determination, nurturing, learning stuff she wants to learn, enough food, being accepted for herself and no more fear.

Graph 2: I dont think Sandor will be involved any more than he is in Jaime's redemption. It's a road you walk alone.

[Ice Turtle]

Graph 2: I dont think Sandor will be involved any more than he is in Jaime's redemption. It's a road you walk alone.

Jaime had Brienne, Tyrion Penny, Sandor both Stark girls. I would say it's road you can't walk alone.

[Independent George]

Graph 1: I totally agree. She is still growing. I wouldnt say she is in darkness - from her POV she is returning to the light - some power, self confidence, self determination, nurturing, learning stuff she wants to learn, enough food, being accepted for herself and no more fear.

The strength and self-confidence are value neutral - it's what she uses them for that is headed towards darkness. She started by killing in self-defense, to killing in rage, to killing as vigilante justice, to killing in cold blood. And there seems to be a lot more of that last one in her future.

Graph 2: I dont think Sandor will be involved any more than he is in Jaime's redemption. It's a road you walk alone.

Sandor's road started with Sansa (a true innocent who likely reminded him of his sister), continued with Arya (another damaged soul whose childhood was lost to blood and death), and finally the Elder brother (a broken man who died and was reborn). Without them, he'd have remained as lost as he always was.

Jaime's road started with Brienne (who saved him, and reminded him of what he once was and could have been), Tyrion (whom he wronged), and (presumably) Catelyn - whom he also wronged, and now stands in judgement of him.

[pig]

Someone trained to kill who can change her appearance and who knows how to stay out of trouble and get out of trouble, having been tested by the best, is going to be fine.

Agree to disagree, I suppose.

If Martin abandons reality and writes it as some girl-power empowerment fantasy, I'll be pissed. He'll have gutted the best character in the book.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

I don't think Arya needs redemption; I think all the people who failed her do.

If she ever returns to Westeros, I doubt she'll be alone. She has a knack for finding companions and there's no reason that she'd stop. Besides, even in war zones, I don't think every woman or girl is raped all the time, everywhere. Arya also has the advantage of having some allies in place, especially in the Riverlands: the BWB and a big-ass pack of wolves.

[rmholt]

Jaime had Brienne, Tyrion Penny, Sandor both Stark girls. I would say it's road you can't walk alone.

In that sense, Arya had Jon, her dad, Syrio, Yoren, Gendry, Hot Pie, Jaqen, and the folks at the house of black and white. What she (and Jaime) didnt have was some sort of mutual support arrangement. I just meant the story would not necessariy improve if Sandor met up with Arya or vice versa. They are on their own paths.

[rmholt]

I don't think Arya needs redemption; I think all the people who failed her do.

If she ever returns to Westeros, I doubt she'll be alone. She has a knack for finding companions and there's no reason that she'd stop. Besides, even in war zones, I don't think every woman or girl is raped all the time, everywhere. Arya also has the advantage of having some allies in place, especially in the Riverlands: the BWB and a big-ass pack of wolves.

Redemption may not be the right world but she needs something. She has no internal compass yet. SHe has been motivated by survival need and growth needs.

[rmholt]

Agree to disagree, I suppose.

If Martin abandons reality and writes it as some girl-power empowerment fantasy, I'll be pissed. He'll have gutted the best character in the book.

If she didnt get raped in Harrenhal, why do you insist she get raped now?

[rmholt]

The strength and self-confidence are value neutral - it's what she uses them for that is headed towards darkness. She started by killing in self-defense, to killing in rage, to killing as vigilante justice, to killing in cold blood. And there seems to be a lot more of that last one in her future.

Sandor's road started with Sansa (a true innocent who likely reminded him of his sister), continued with Arya (another damaged soul whose childhood was lost to blood and death), and finally the Elder brother (a broken man who died and was reborn). Without them, he'd have remained as lost as he always was.

Jaime's road started with Brienne (who saved him, and reminded him of what he once was and could have been), Tyrion (whom he wronged), and (presumably) Catelyn - whom he also wronged, and now stands in judgement of him.

I cant even begin to see where Arya will go - I am betting she throws away the HOBW the way she did her wooden makeshift sword at some point. But maybe not. When her heart grows back she may find a different path. Who knows, there may be more to FM than killing for hire.

I think we are all familiar with Sandor's path. He held on to the people who saved him as best he could for as long as he could stand it - but when he left them he had no guide. Now he does. It wasnt just Sansa who turned him. It was seeing the whole damn situation with the Lannisters.

I think Jaime's started with Catelyn kicking that pail over. He was forced to see that what he thought of as his finest act maybe actually was a low piece of treachery and maybe living a dissolute life wasnt what he wanted. He saw himself through the eyes of a peer and it hit home.

[ARYa_Nym]

I don't think Arya needs redemption; I think all the people who failed her do.

Agreed. I also think that the other "redemption" arcs are a load of crap.

Other notes. Arya has not yet learned to change her face without the KM's help.

All sorcery comes at a cost, child. Years of prayer

and sacrifice and study are required to work a proper

glamor.”

“Years?” she said, dismayed.

The KM also did not say you lie at the end of ADWD when Arya said that she was no one.

I love to think that she'll return to Westeros and reunite with Nymeria and/or someone from the Stark children and start kickin butt...but again the whole FM training goes to hell... I think she is meant for something bigger - Cercei, the dragons, even Stannis. Who the hell knows...?

Reuniting with the Stark children now relegates her to their sidekick. Cersei is already on her way to being a has been and as I said Arya already passed up the chance to kill her.

Stannis wants to marry her off. The Iron Bank also chose to support him so he may not be a target.

Arya was also disciplined for killing Dareon.

“When you slew the singer, you took god’s powers on yourself. We kill men, but we do not presume to judge them. Do you understand?” No, she thought. “Yes,” she said. “You lie. And that is why you must now walk in darkness until you see the way. Unless you wish to leave us. You need only ask, and you may have your eyes back.” No, she thought. “No,” she said.”

The FM marks a shift in her arc imo. She's not supposed to focus on vengeance anymore but do what the FM want and if that's getting involved with the dragons then so be it.

[ARYa_Nym]

Crackpot theory: Arya never hooks back up with Nymeria. Sansa reveals herself to the Vale Lords, yet no one believes her (word having reached the Vale that the Arya married to Ramsey is a fake). Nymeria shows up (at Bran's urging), confirms Sansa's identity to the Vale Lords, and becomes Sansa's constant companion.

Arya already knows where Nymeria is. ADWD quote:

"Better. And what else do you know?" It is snowing in the riverlands, in Westeros, she almost said. But he would have asked her how she knew that, and she did not think that he would like her answer."

I've detailed the similarities. I believe that Nymeria won't return to her old pack to stay.

1. Queen Nymeria was a warrior queen. GRRM said that she was more of a commander than a combatant. Nymeria the wolf is the queen of her pack and they could be used as an army of sorts. Arya isn't really a combatant either in the way that Asha or Brienne are but she could command Nymeria's army through warging which could explain why Catelyn saw Arya as a Warrior in ACoK.

"The Warrior was Renly and Stannis, Rob and Robert, Jaime Lannister and Jon Snow. She even glimpsed Arya in those lines, just for an instant."

Although Free Northmen's theory about Arya learning bow training could be another way that Arya becomes a warrior.

2. Queen Nymeria gathered people from different city-states along the river Rhoyne. Nymeria gathered her pack along the Trident.

3. Queen Nymeria had to flee from the Valyrians. Nymeria and Arya had to flee from the Lannisters.

4. Bran called Queen Nymeria a witch queen. Arya could be called a sorceress in the same way BR was-warging. EDIT: Also, with the FM she's learning about poisons and potions.

5. Queen Nymeria didn't have a home for her people. Nymeria doesn't either. Arya went to the FM in part because she felt that she had no where else to go.

6. Queen Nymeria was a Rhoynar. They were associated with ships. Arya in Braavos prefers to hang around sailors the most and her favorite place is the Ragman's Harbor. According to wiki the Rhoynar are:

The Rhoynar are a culture of river-faring people who dwelt on the banks of the immense River Rhoyne

Nymeria is currently living in the Riverlands.

7. The story of Queen Nymeria is one of breaking ties with the past and starting anew. She burned her ships so she could not go back. Queen Nymeria never returned home. Arya is trying to become No One. There will be a point where she can't go back to her past. Nymeria has acquired a new pack. It's unlikely that she will go back to being a domesticated wolf again since she's become so wild and feral.

8. Nymeria and Arya have become ruthless killers.

“She says there’s this great pack, hundreds of them, mankillers, The one that leads them is a she-wolf, a bitch from the seventh hell.”

The dwarf woman studied her with dim red eyes. "I see you," she whispered. "I see you, wolf child. Blood child. I thought it was the lord who smelled of death . . . " She began to sob, her little body shaking. "You are cruel to come to my hill, cruel. I gorged on grief at Summerhall, I need none of yours. Begone from here, dark heart. Begone!"

9. This quote highlights the similarities well:

Nymeria is not only a warrior queen, she's a leader of a people without a home. Arya has a pack. Despite her self-sufficient nature, despite always forging her own path forward, she makes friends wherever she goes, and always has people there protecting her. She's also always moving forward. The longest she's stayed in one place is Braavos, but even her situation kept changing. She'd live with a clam-seller, or in the house of the faceless men, or on the streets...

Due to the parallels and the naming of the wolf it is my belief that neither Arya nor Nymeria will be with the Starks at the end. She may briefly help in some way or become in contact with the remaining Starks though.

[pig]

If she didnt get raped in Harrenhal, why do you insist she get raped now?

As I've said more than once: Because she's no longer an eight year old child. She's eleven or twelve and will draw a hell of a lot more attention from men. She won't slip notice like she did before.