Arya in Braavos, So Spake Martin

[Ice Turtle]

Nymeria left her lands not her pack. Arya wants her family, I would dare say that even more than revenge. If they are all dead I can see her never returning, though if she ever learned something about Bran she would prefer a place with trees. The only person she would leave her Stark family and the North for is Jon, if he was ever forced by circumstances to move permanently south.

[pig]

snip

I officially withdraw the 'constant companion' portion of my crackpot theory. Very interesting reading, ARYa_Nym.

[Errant Bard]

I don't like to see any character personality and circumstances reduced to "darkness" and "light", why cannot Arya actually have been impacted by the years she grew up in an hostile environment, and why shouldn't her personality express itself in ways that are not the usual for girls in fiction (the wicked antagonist, the compassionate good girl, the love interest, the always weaker character that has to be defined in relation to someone else)? Why cannot she have real flaws, instead of some edgy episode where she learns kung-fu before going to kick baddies' asses?

"Growing back a heart", "clawing her way back to light"... why? There is no light and darkness scale, there are circumstances and personality, trauma, maybe, and to deny any growing up to the character, essentially wanting them to go *back* to *what they were*, that's sad. Would anyone want Brienne claw back her way to whatever is thought of as "light"? Jaime? Theon? Catelyn? Ned? Tywin? Victarion? Dany? Asha? Their flaws, their weaknesses, their strengths, their complexity, their shadow areas are what make them interesting, and even if they kill or do controversial things, that doesn't mean they cannot also be sympathetic at times.

Also, having the genesis of a ruthless protagonist is interesting, there is no need to whitewash it.

I want Arya to actually continue growing up and become, consistently, an adult carrying the weight of the experiences she had, like everyone else. If that makes up for a complex, layered, and sometimes not good or moral (or only on her own terms) adult, so be it, it would actually be a plus for the story.

Starting from this, I expect her to not join with any other acquaintance who would put her in a subaltern position, narratively and emotionally. That means no family, certainly no domineering figures à la Sandor. The Braavos chapters are preparing her for this, she's learning autonomy and independance, and to think for herself. When she meets another character, it will be on equal footing, and likely to use her as much as she is used.

[ARYa_Nym]

Nymeria left her lands not her pack. Arya wants her family, I would dare say that even more than revenge. If they are all dead I can see her never returning, though if she ever learned something about Bran she would prefer a place with trees. The only person she would leave her Stark family and the North for is Jon, if he was ever forced by circumstances to move permanently south.

Nymeria acquired a new pack where she can be the alpha.

Arya wants her family yet simultaneously is willing to join the FM where the KM said:

"You will be no one’s daughter, no one’s wife, no one’s mother. Your name will be a lie, and the very face you wear will not be your own.”

& the quote I posted about her wishing to fly away and not come back unless she wants to is when Catelyn, Robb, Jon, and Sansa are all still alive. I believe she wants her family but does she want to stay with them forever?

There's also feelings that her family would not want her back if they knew. I believe the Frodo of the story is either Bran or Arya. GRRM said that Jon is taller than Frodo so that leaves either of them imo.

[Ice Turtle]

Nymeria acquired a new pack where she can be the alpha.

Arya wants her family yet simultaneously is willing to join the FM where the KM said:

& the quote I posted about her wishing to fly away and not come back unless she wants to is when Catelyn, Robb, Jon, and Sansa are all still alive. I believe she wants her family but does she want to stay with them forever?

There's also feelings that her family would not want her back if they knew. I believe the Frodo of the story is either Bran or Arya. GRRM said that Jon is taller than Frodo so that leaves either of them imo.

I meant Nymeria the woman, even if I used the word pack. She didn't leave her people she saved them.

If I had wings I could fly back to Winterfell and see for myself. And if it was true, I’d just fly away, fly up past the moon and the shining stars, and see all the things in Old Nan’s stories, dragons and sea monsters and the Titan of Braavos, and maybe I wouldn’t ever fly back unless I wanted to.

She wouldn't want to leave if Bran and Rickon were alive. I think that she had much closer relationship with Ned, Bran, Rickon than with Cat, Robb and Sansa who are the most Southorn. Jon is category of itself, but she traveled with NW recruits, she knows she has no place at the Wall.

It's a few years since I read The Lord of Rings, but IIRC Frodo didn't have a feeling that he doesn't belong before he left for his quest. Arya never really had a place in her society, so it's normal that she has not one to return to. But it doesn't matter, with the Long Night coming no place in Westeros will remain the same.

[ARYa_Nym]

I meant Nymeria the woman, even if I used the word pack. She didn't leave her people she saved them.

If I had wings I could fly back to Winterfell and see for myself. And if it was true, I’d just fly away, fly up past the moon and the shining stars, and see all the things in Old Nan’s stories, dragons and sea monsters and the Titan of Braavos, and maybe I wouldn’t ever fly back unless I wanted to.

She wouldn't want to leave if Bran and Rickon were alive. I think that she had much closer relationship with Ned, Bran, Rickon than with Cat, Robb and Sansa who are the most Southorn. Jon is category of itself, but she traveled with NW recruits, she knows she has no place at the Wall.

It's a few years since I read The Lord of Rings, but IIRC Frodo didn't have a feeling that he doesn't belong before he left for his quest. Arya never really had a place in her society, so it's normal that she has not one to return to. But it doesn't matter, with the Long Night coming no place in Westeros will remain the same.

Nymeria never returned home though which was my point. She couldn't. She told her people that there was no going back. Her people were gathered along a river and Nymeria's pack was also gathered along a river.

We are in part, Your Grace. Nymeria’s blood is in me, along with that of Mors Martell, the Dornish lord she married. On the day they wed, Nymeria fired her ships, so her people would understand that there could be no going back. Most were glad to see those flames, for their voyagings had been long and terrible before they came to voyagings had been long and terrible before they came to Dorne, and many and more had been lost to storm, disease, and slavery. There were a few who mourned, however. They did not love this dry red land or its sevenfaced god, so they clung to their old ways, hammered boats together from the hulks of the burned ships, and became the orphans of the Greenblood. The Mother in their songs is not our Mother, but Mother Rhoyne, whose waters nourished them from the dawn of days.

Arya said this in AGoT while Bran and Rickon were alive.

“Old Nan used to tell stories of boys who stowed away on trading galleys and sailed off into all kinds of adventures. Maybe Arya could do that too. She decided to visit the riverfront.”

& really we know that Ned was planning on making her a lady. He already considered stopping her lessons so she would have had a dilemma eventually.

As for Jon, I don't believe that having a place at the Wall was relevant to her. She said twice that she would rather go to the Wall than to her other family.

“She yearned to see her mother again, and Robb and Bran and Rickon…but it was Jon Snow she thought of most. She wished somehow they could come to the Wall before Winterfell, so Jon might muss up her hair and call her “little sister.” She’d tell him, “I missed you,” and he’d say it too at the very same moment, the way they always used to say things together. She would have liked that. She would have liked that better than anything.”

"Maybe I should go to the Wall instead of Riverrun. Jon wouldn't care who I killed or whether I brushed my hair..."

I would say that Cat's death hit her way harder than Bran and RIckon's though. They had their differences but she was still her mother.

I don't believe that he will have the parallels exactly the same but one or more will not be with the Starks again. They will leave or will not be able to join with the rest. This could just be Bran or it could be both. Bran resigned to his tree and Arya leaving the Starks of her own free will or the FM giving her an ultimatum of stay or die.

[Jon Flowers]

I found that stuff to be quite interesting. Especially the fact that Brandon Snow, Torrhen Stark's bastard brother offered to sneak behind the lines and kill Aegon's three dragons. Ha, good luck bro. Guess Brandon Stark was Brandon Snow reborn. What caught me and interested me the most was this quotation.

That sounds like it has to be the "dark eyed" youth from Bran's vision, making three weirwood arrows.

[Lady of Long Lake]

Arya's Braavos adventures are a welcome relief from the constant depression of the rest of the series.

The lighthearted - "I couldn't give a damn" attitude that she projects even in the worst of circumstances is a crucial oasis for the mind of the horror-weary, emotionally battered reader who has just had to read through a bunch of grave Jon chapters, suffering-filled Theon chapters, emotionally numb Victarrion chapters, sadistic Cersei chapters and depraved Tyrion chapters.

Arya merrily going about extracting the fun out of every situation, and mastering the challenges of whatever she has to face (turning blindness into victory by warging into the cat was a typical example) is an emotional balm to the punch drunk reader.

Saving Sam from the bravos, making friends with Colloqo the Seal King or whatever his name is, learning three new things every month, outwitting the Kindly Old Man and just taking life by the scruff of the neck is the part of ASOIAF I find myself looking forward to most during the long suffering slog through all the death and devestation that is wreaked upon everyone I care about in the rest of the series.

May Arya have more chapters than anyone else in Winds!

Beautifully put!

I love seeing that world through the eyes of the working men and women. I always smile when I think of Arya in Braavos because my mind makes this connection : Arya -> Braavos -> Camel C***. That line just killed me :laugh:

[Sand Snake No. 9]

Starting from this, I expect her to not join with any other acquaintance who would put her in a subaltern position, narratively and emotionally. That means no family, certainly no domineering figures à la Sandor. The Braavos chapters are preparing her for this, she's learning autonomy and independance, and to think for herself. When she meets another character, it will be on equal footing, and likely to use her as much as she is used.

:agree:

I don't like any proposed scenario that has Arya "helping" one of her siblings to rule. Why should she be relegated to helper when she'll come away from the FM as the person best educated in languages, history and realpolitik? Arya's good at sums, too. ;) She should be leading some enterprise, not being someone's #2.

This is why I don't think her story will end with a marriage or even a romance. In Westerosi marriages, and probably in most if not all Essosi marriages the wife is clearly subordinate to the husband. The more she learns FM skills, and the better she gets at skinchanging, the less she'll want to be a second class citizen, imo, and no one will be able to force her.

I don't see her going away from Westeros and toward Dany, either. To start with, if there's going to be another Dance of the Dragons, as GRRM said, then Dany has to get within fighting distance of another dragon and they can only be found in Westeros. Then, even though a lot of characters want Dany dead, I don't know of any in a position, either geographically or financially, to hire a FM, but if an FM were hired, it wouldn't be apprentice Arya. Most of all, at this point the story is focussing on Westeros, and Arya's story would just be going backward.

[ARYa_Nym]

Arya could also take the role as spy/informant while Jaqen is the FM who is getting the info on how to kill the dragons.

Dany has the tendency to see children/women as less of a threat.

EDIT: Also, I think she could be good at this because the KM already sends her out to get info for him. He may eventually send her to spy on a possible target for the FM (meaning Dany).

[Cravensbayne]

While reading the update on Aegon's invasion and the strength of all the armies in the North and how the Reach and the Westerlands joined forces for the largest force ever (at that time) I found that stuff to be quite interesting. Especially the fact that Brandon Snow, Torrhen Stark's bastard brother offered to sneak behind the lines and kill Aegon's three dragons. Ha, good luck bro. Guess Brandon Stark was Brandon Snow reborn. What caught me and interested me the most was this quotation.

"He said that LOVES to write about Arya's adventures in Braavos. He said he could write whole novels about. That received a huge applause until he joked that maybe he could put off Winds to do so."

This seems to mean something, I just don't know what it is. Either:

1) GRRM has not written anything about Arya for TWoW, and still has yet to do so if he plans on including her in the book, which I expect he does. He was just talking about writing for her in A Feast for Crows and A Dance With Dragons.

2) GRRM has written some or all of the chapters for Arya for TWoW and she continues to remain in Braavos under Izembaro's tutelage. Martin has said that he writes chapters for each character one after another, and then separates them for the books for chronology's sake. This means she does not

meet up with Justin Massey and Asha and head back to the Wall with them once Massey has hired his sellswords as others have been speculating

.

3) I doubt this one very much because of how busy he's been, but GRRM has written every single one of the Arya chapters he has left to write, including the ones in A Dream for Spring. In this novel she will finally graduate and be sent on her first real mission as an assassin. She continues to train as a Faceless Woman, and going with The Ice and Fire Assessment Theory, which was very good by the way, and I think she will eventually be sent to kill Dany in the last book, since the Braavos have a long-standing hatred of Valyrians and this is the best way to tie the Faceless Men into that theory.

I dunno, random speculation much, but it just got me thinking. Anybody have any ideas?

Interesting theory about Arya killing Dany. I would pay to see that.

[The Nite Wolf]

Arya's Braavos adventures are a welcome relief from the constant depression of the rest of the series.

The lighthearted - "I couldn't give a damn" attitude that she projects even in the worst of circumstances is a crucial oasis for the mind of the horror-weary, emotionally battered reader who has just had to read through a bunch of grave Jon chapters, suffering-filled Theon chapters, emotionally numb Victarrion chapters, sadistic Cersei chapters and depraved Tyrion chapters.

Arya merrily going about extracting the fun out of every situation, and mastering the challenges of whatever she has to face (turning blindness into victory by warging into the cat was a typical example) is an emotional balm to the punch drunk reader.

Saving Sam from the bravos, making friends with Colloqo the Seal King or whatever his name is, learning three new things every month, outwitting the Kindly Old Man and just taking life by the scruff of the neck is the part of ASOIAF I find myself looking forward to most during the long suffering slog through all the death and devestation that is wreaked upon everyone I care about in the rest of the series.

May Arya have more chapters than anyone else in Winds!

Very well put! Arya's chapters certainly lifted my spirits while reading AFFC and ADWD, particularly her time as Cat of the Canals. As someone else mentioned, the "camel c***s" comment was endlessly funny. :laugh:

[Lady Flandrensis]

I think Arya will remain a free agent once she's done with training. She has her father's dedication but she has so much more talent and intelligence. I can't see her ever submitting to marriage or any traditional role. I really wonder if she'll ever go back to Westeros.

[Light a wight tonight]

Her skills aren't geared up for fighting undead zombies.

Defeating the wights doesn't require skill, just fire. Waste of her talent/training. White Walkers are a different story, but we know that dragonglass is Kryptonite to them. Still, not her thing.

Maybe she could get a job as a scullery maid at the Twins and bring down the Freys. A little Strangler in all the wine casks.........

[Too Tall Duncan]

I was thinking she might be the one who takes out Varys or Illyrio, or both. Let's face it, those guys have a reckoning coming for all their political entanglements. We don't know the FM's political leanings or involvements, other than speculation that they're affiliated with the Iron Bank, which I think is only theory at this point. I would think a giant financial institution would want prosperity and not constant war, which Varys and his boy have been directly responsible for causing. Having her take out Littlefinger would be pretty cool too, he could use a good killing, for his various crimes against the Starks. :)

I like the dragon assassination idea with the weirwood arrows and all that fun stuff, but Arya's training would indicate an espionage or covert assignment, and taking out one of those three would qualify as pretty major in my opinion.

[ARYa_Nym]

I see Varys or Illyrio as a possibility. Pentos is where I think she will see Dany.

She saw Illyrio saying that Ned should die to Varys in AGoT.

Arya goes to Ned and calls Varys a wizard. And:

Arya: "What if a wizard was sent to kill him [her dad] ?"

"Well, as to that," Desmond replied, drawing his longsword. "Wizards die the same as other men, once you cut their heads off."

Of course that could mean that someone else will behead Varys and not necessarily Arya.

I just remembered that Arya may have a confrontation with Tyrion.

AGoT. This could possibly reference Nymeria's pack.

Tyrion Lannister looked up from his books and shivered, though the library was snug and warm. Something about the howling of a wolf took a man right out of his here and now and left him in a dark forest of the mind, running naked before the pack.

ASoS:

"...Varys has agents in the Free Cities who will see that you do not lack for funds...Cersei will send men after you...You might do well to take another name." "Another name? Oh, certainly, And when the Faceless Men come to kill me, I'll say, "No, you have the wrong man, I'm a different dwarf with a hideous facial scar."

Anyways, in the Jon/Dany thread it was noted that Shakaz said on why he chose to be a cat. Arya as we know has a strong cat association.

"Cats go everywhere," replied the familiar voice of Shakaz mo Kandaq. "No one ever looks at them."

[Errant Bard]

I don't see her going away from Westeros and toward Dany, either. To start with, if there's going to be another Dance of the Dragons, as GRRM said, then Dany has to get within fighting distance of another dragon and they can only be found in Westeros. Then, even though a lot of characters want Dany dead, I don't know of any in a position, either geographically or financially, to hire a FM, but if an FM were hired, it wouldn't be apprentice Arya. Most of all, at this point the story is focusing on Westeros, and Arya's story would just be going backward.

I can see Dany going towards Westeros and Arya hopping along. The Pentos invasion alone brings Dany closer and I cannot but wonder what the narrative value for this city's inclusion is.

The thing is that an independent Arya could very well part company with the FM of her own volition. Would there ever be a better chance to get everything she wants than to accompany one determined to crush the Lannisters/Baratheons, who has enough power for it to not be an empty boast?

I could see the value in showing us the plight of the common folks before, but now that the story shifted gears, I don't think the wandering PoV of a lone assassin would bring anything, or would be consistent with the story at large, everyone gathering huges forces, defending the world from zombies, and she would be reduced to travelogue and killing now mostly irrelevant people? Doesn't seem too attractive. Plus Dany very badly needs her own spies and info she can trust, as seen in Meereen.

[The Lord's Kiss]

This was my first topic so I kinda expected this to fade off into oblivion. I really appreciate all the feedback you guys have put into this, for serious. Reading all of this has made me reconsider a bunch of my preconceived notions.

I wanted Arya to leave Braavos because I thought it would do more to advance the plot, as it seemed she always had such amazing but brutal adventures in Westeros. Now it seems that the time spent there is crucial to her development as a character and after rereading her chapters there I've come to appreciate them a lot more than I first did.

I know the idea of her being sent to kill Dany has been floated, but the theory of her being sent to kill the dragons, especially with weirwood arrows after proper training with a bow, that is infinitely more interesting.

Perhaps she is sent to kill the dragons, like GRRM has hinted will eventually happen, but after meeting Dany decides to betray the Faceless Men and go with her on her Conquest of Westeros. Only after seeing the destruction they have wrought, needlessly killing thousands of smallfolk, does she finally decide to do what's necessary and put three arrows through their black hearts.

And then maybe she kills Dany just because.

[The Lord's Kiss]

I was thinking she might be the one who takes out Varys or Illyrio, or both. Let's face it, those guys have a reckoning coming for all their political entanglements. We don't know the FM's political leanings or involvements, other than speculation that they're affiliated with the Iron Bank, which I think is only theory at this point. I would think a giant financial institution would want prosperity and not constant war, which Varys and his boy have been directly responsible for causing. Having her take out Littlefinger would be pretty cool too, he could use a good killing, for his various crimes against the Starks. :)

I like the dragon assassination idea with the weirwood arrows and all that fun stuff, but Arya's training would indicate an espionage or covert assignment, and taking out one of those three would qualify as pretty major in my opinion.

This has been a fantasy of mine since she began her Faceless Men training. I never thought of Illyrio, since he always plays the away game, but Varys is always the one bragging about his little birds. I imagined him welcoming Arya "back home" in King's Landing in King Aegon VI's court (I imagine Tommen and his entourage will be long gone by the time Arya gets there) with a hug, whereupon she quickly shoves Needle through his heart and says something like "This was never my home. I am no little bird, and Winterfell is short one wolf." She then promptly walks out never looking back while things explode in the background for no reason. :smoking: Wildfire maybe?

[kissdbyfire]

I can see Dany going towards Westeros and Arya hopping along. The Pentos invasion alone brings Dany closer and I cannot but wonder what the narrative value for this city's inclusion is.

The thing is that an independent Arya could very well part company with the FM of her own volition. Would there ever be a better chance to get everything she wants than to accompany one determined to crush the Lannisters/Baratheons, who has enough power for it to not be an empty boast?

I could see the value in showing us the plight of the common folks before, but now that the story shifted gears, I don't think the wandering PoV of a lone assassin would bring anything, or would be consistent with the story at large, everyone gathering huges forces, defending the world from zombies, and she would be reduced to travelogue and killing now mostly irrelevant people? Doesn't seem too attractive. Plus Dany very badly needs her own spies and info she can trust, as seen in Meereen.

Very good points, I like it very much. But maybe she wouldn't be able to join Dany as a Stark; at least not from the start. After all, to Dany the Starks and the Lannisters are the usurper's dogs, and the Baratheons the actual usurpers. Unless until then Dany has started to actually listen to what people are telling her, especially where it concerns her family and Westeros.