From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa XII

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

Hey everyone - just popping in to say that corseque is live-blogging about La Belle and La Bête (the 1946 film) and everything is Sansan and nothing hurts.

Just read the liveblogging (can catch the movie later) and it warms the cockles of my shippy little heart! Especially loved the observation that there was a birdcage in the promo poster. Thank you, Lady Lea, for the link!

As far as friends are concerned: Arya seemed to make friends easily because she hung out with butcher's boys and the like, and because she wasn't close to Sansa. I'm wondering how many of the other characters had real friends who were not family? Margaery's close friends were her cousins. Arianne and the Sand Snakes, who are also very close, are cousins. Robb and Theon started out as friends, and that ended very badly. Ned and Robert were friends because they were fostered together. It seems that friends in the ASOIAF-verse are mostly family or foster family. Maybe I should have phrased "friends" as "people who are loyal."

There are a few people who have non-family friendships: Bran and Meera, Bran and Hodor. Even before they had to flee Winterfell, Bran and Meera had already become close friends. Repeating a pattern set by Ned and Howland Reed perhaps? It helps that House Reed is utterly loyal to the Starks and that Bran and Meera are both nice people. and that Meera is the one who is feeding everyone and keeping them alive on the trek north.

Likewise, Jon makes friends in the Night's Watch, but those are under special circumstances and they are supposed to be "brothers of the Watch" anyway.

And, thinking about it, it seems rather sad that Sansa's own mother and brother basically wrote her off post-Lannister-marriage :( ...I know it was wartime and the Lannisters were the enemy and it was almost certainly politically motivated rather than not loving Sansa as a family member. Still, very sad.

[brashcandy]

Sansa's problem is that she has no gift at all for making friends (and I mean real friends, as in people who like her and don't just want to screw her, in any sense). Her one friend is, who, Jeyne Poole? People (who aren't attracted to her sexually) don't seek out her friendship freely or connect with her easily, and this seems to have been true even before everything went to hell in AGOT. Granted, she hasn't exactly been in many environments conducive to true friendship, but Arya seems to rack up friends wherever she goes, almost in spite of herself (despite her trust issues, safety risks, etc.); not so with Sansa.

I don't think that's a true characterization based on what we've seen so far. Although "friendship" doesn't quite represent the relationship she had with Sandor, it did include a lot of the elements found in traditional friendships, and by the end of ACOK, Sansa had arguably won over his loyalty and love. While Dontos was indeed working for Littlefinger, he did genuinely desire to help her and was sympathetic to her plight with the Lannisters. In the previous thread project we did on female influences, Dr. Pepper highlighted how Lollys might have been expressing a kind of understanding and sorrow for Sansa during her wedding to Tyrion. And even though Margaery Tyrell had ulterior motives in interacting with Sansa, it's clear that Sansa at least strived to be a true friend to her.To the contrary, I would say Sansa does have the ability to make friends based on those empathetic qualities she's displayed throughout the series, as well as her development into being fairly pragmatic and non-judgmental - look at how she opens up to Randa Royce despite LF's warnings not to trust the girl. What I think we have to remember is that unlike Arya, Sansa never had a chance to be someone else until AFFC. During her captivity in KL, she was Sansa Stark, daughter of a traitor and later, Sansa Stark, heir to the North. These titles effectively restricted anyone from associating with her freely, and opened her up to exploitation by others. Yet, she still finds a way to reach out to people - in the heart of the enemy camp - and form bonds, and this is quite remarkable given the circumstances.

Mya Stone doesn't dislike her, but they certainly aren't BFF. She might have a shot at friendship with Lothor Brune, who seems like he has no sexual interest in her (although his loyalty to Littlefinger is a big problem). Littlefinger's tutelage seems to be making her less likely to form authentic friendships, since he's teaching her to lie to people, to trust no one but him, to hold herself apart even more. He's teaching her how to fake friendship; he's teaching her not to connect authentically with people, and to view them as pawns or as threats rather than as people. It's not as if Littlefinger is a great heartwinner himself, and he's trying to transform Sansa into a female version of himself, or, as an ASOIAF character would no doubt put it, "Littlefinger with teats." As time goes on, Sansa's becoming more guarded, not less, and guarded people have a hard time forming real friendships. I suppose Sansa showed hints of her ability to charm when she was making the rounds with Tyrion at the Purple Wedding, but she doesn't strike me as a person who wins hearts easily; she seems to step wrong as often as she steps right. There's also a difference between charming people at a feast and inspiring true loyalty and devotion to the point where people will put their lives on the line for you.

He's trying to make her guarded and closed off, but is he really succeeding? She's already gleaned information about Lothor's family from the man himself, and as I noted above, while she isn't spilling family secrets with Randa, she is indulging in conversation that has personal relevance to her, concerning sexuality and romance. Her relationship with Mya isn't fully fleshed yet, but she respects the girl and shows an interest in seeing her happily married - things which again resemble the feelings a friend displays.

This isn't to say that she doesn't get a reaction out of anyone. Her superpower seems to be inspiring possessiveness or even obsession, usually obsessive lust. Her arc is a parade of men who want to sleep with her (Joffrey, the Hound, Tyrion, Marillion, Littlefinger, Theon, random dudes, etc.) and women who want a piece of her (Cersei, Olenna, Randa); I keep thinking of the word "covet," because people seem to covet Sansa like they would any other shiny, pretty object. While this ability has saved her a few times, it's created more problems for her than it's solved. For every save from a third party, there's a creepy or unwanted advance to be fended off. It's just that the sort of sentiments she inspires--in men, but in women, too (Cersei was really possessive of Sansa and felt extremely betrayed by Sansa's actions)--are not really about loyalty or devotion or any kind of higher sentiment; they're dark and even dangerous, both to Sansa and others. How many people have died or will die because Littlefinger wants Sansa?

I suppose that's one way to look at it, but I tend to see it with a bit more nuance. Sansa has always been exposed to the predatory interests of others, but I wouldn't say her superpower is in inspiring obsessive lust at all. Those unsavoury aspects were always already present in men like Littlefinger and Marillion, and Tyrion's decision to marry her had more to do with wanting the fantasy of a happy home life with a pretty wife and castle, than really being invested in Sansa Stark, the individual. I wouldn't include the Hound in the parade of men who want to sleep with her either: I think that relationship was a lot more complicated, and characterised by a mutual give and take, that redefined both of their world views and consequently impacted them on an intimate level. As for the women who want a piece of her, that's again more about Sansa's claim than anything else, and says more about them than it does about her. What we've actually seen is Sansa being exposed to alternative representations of womanhood and sexuality, which we expect to have a more lasting impact on her development and future choices.

[Joyful Union]

I dont tink she'll ever be as much of a player as Littlefinger, but she will have improved thats for sure

[Queen Sansa Stark]

I dont tink she'll ever be as much of a player as Littlefinger, but she will have improved thats for sure

Honestly I find the fact how people seem to portray Little Finger to be that good of a player is ridiculous. yes he is good, but not the way people claim him to be. And let's not forget he seems to slip up lately. Little Finger will go down. By Sansa of course.

[The Storm Queen]

Honestly I find the fact how people seem to portray Little Finger to be that good of a player is ridiculous. yes he is good, but not the way people claim him to be. And let's not forget he seems to slip up lately. Little Finger will go down. By Sansa of course.

Seconded! Did you see this thread already?

[wonder1859]

YES! I just joined her in the live-blogging (well commenting on her blogging).....its going hand-in-hand with my re-watch and analysis (still in progress) of the Beauty and the Beast tv series episodes written by GRRM. :D

Oh, I'm going to watch them too! :) I'll PM you.

Long time (25 year) fan of the Beauty and the Beast TV series. I'd love to get in on the discussion, if possible. Many of the elements GRRM brought to the TV series are present in the Sansa/Sandor dynamic.

Oh, i guess i should say hello. I've been lurking on these Rethinking threads for quite a while and enjoying them immensely! :)

[Queen of Winter]

Long time (25 year) fan of the Beauty and the Beast TV series. I'd love to get in on the discussion, if possible. Many of the elements GRRM brought to the TV series are present in the Sansa/Sandor dynamic.

Oh, i guess i should say hello. I've been lurking on these Rethinking threads for quite a while and enjoying them immensely! :)

Welcome to the thread, wonder1859! :) I think an further exploration of the Beauty and the Beast aspect would be great for a discussion.

[brashcandy]

Long time (25 year) fan of the Beauty and the Beast TV series. I'd love to get in on the discussion, if possible. Many of the elements GRRM brought to the TV series are present in the Sansa/Sandor dynamic.

Oh, i guess i should say hello. I've been lurking on these Rethinking threads for quite a while and enjoying them immensely! :)

Hello to you as well, wonder1859 :) Yes, having a discussion about the Beauty and Beast tv show would be great, and you're welcome to participate. It depends on how we're going to structure the conversation really, but if we're doing an in depth discussion and analysis we might need to start a new thread in another sub-forum. However, highlighting similarities to Sansan and other tidbits should be fine in this thread.

[Lady Lea]

This weekend I'll see if I can watch LB&LB and do a quick write up on the Sansa/Sandor similarities.

[wonder1859]

Thanks for the welcome! :)

Part of the reason I lurk and don't really participate is because I feel like much of the discussion is way over my head from a litcrit perspective, as I'm only just beginning my first re-read of the series. But y'all have been so helpful in pointing out things I missed the first time and what I need to be aware of as I work my way through the books. But the B&B TV series? I've been dissecting that baby for 25 years; I'm an expert!

[voodooqueen126]

This is interesting, that Sandor's memories of the UnKiss might be as unreliable as Sansa's. I wonder, if he does remember kissing her (whether or not he did) will that be some kind of sustenance for him on the QI (perhaps preventing him from taking vows! :D )? Sansa's UnKiss memories and dreams seem to float up in regards to kissing ands sex quite a bit. Sandor has not been a POV character so far and probably never will, so we won't get the same peek inside his mind, but we may hear him confessing to UnKiss memories at some point.

But rather than a bad-ass warrior not wanting to admit to kissing a girl, I wonder if Sandor had kissed Sansa, would he tell Arya just to needle her? (sorry, could not resist!) And get a rise out of her in an "eww, gross, Sansa kissed YOU?" kind of way?

Regarding Sansa being drunk: It seems that Ned only allowed his kids wine on special occasions and then only one glass. He's there to enforce the rule at the high table during the royal visit, but Jon, left below the salt, gets good and hammered (and his uncle eggs him on and talks up the Night's Watch. Hm.). I don't think Sansa is used to drinking that much, and I don't see her making a habit of it, but it probably played a role in her "not remembering" in front of Cersei. And also factor in that she was a frightened and confused eleven-year-old hauled up in front of hostile adults and she had to have froze up. Which is one reason why I can't really see blaming Sansa in this situation - how many sheltered, naive children could comport themselves effortlessly under such pressure? And, as has been pointed out here and elsewhere, Cersei and/or Joffrey would have found a way to kill Lady once they got to KL in any case; Lady could have survived only if Sansa shooed her away like Arya did Nymeria, or left her with Bran and Rickon at Winterfell.

Cersei seems to be hitting the sauce hard in AFFC and I am sure that contributed to her paranoia and bad decisions. There's also the fact that her family is imploding (son poisoned by her brother or so she thinks, father killed by that same brother, her twin gone away, her daughter is in Dorne so only one child left to her) and what she sees as her only power (being able to control her son) slipping away. Cersei has not built herself a true power base of people who actually like her and want to help her.

Petyr is another "evil mentor" type who turns up drunk at the end of AFFC. When he's telling Sansa about his grand plans to marry her to Harry the Heir and help her win back the North (and again, I call BS) Sansa notices liquor on his breath instead of the usual mint. He's up late - VERY late, as it's past everyone else's bedtime and Sansa is exhausted - and he's drunk. Petyr is another one who has built up his power base on something other than genuine love or liking and respect - he lies, he manipulates, he blackmails, and he buys people off. I wonder if Petyr's drunkenness at the end of AFFC marks the beginning of his downward trajectory (and Sansa's rise)?

Petyr is either a psychopath or a malignant narcissist. People with either of these personality disorders are said to be prone to substance abuse:

http://psych.wisc.edu/newman/SecurePDF/Smith&Newman1990.pdf

http://samvak.tripod.com/journal66.html

Sansa seems to be learning to build up power based upon getting people to like her and want to help her. Sandor and Tyrion both helped her in KL because they wanted to not because Sansa sexed them up or blackmailed them or harangued them. Whatever Randa's motivations of befriending "Alayne," it is not out of fear; even if there is an ulterior motive (she wants to marry LF or something else) she seems to really like Alayne. (It is true that Sansa being beautiful helps a lot. However, beauty alone won't hold the support if you are not likable as Cersei is finding out.)

We saw how fast Cersei's band of lickspittles and opportunists vanished when she was imprisoned. I'm betting a lot of LF's allies will vanish into thin air when he starts to fall (and he will). Sansa, on the other hand, if she can win people's hearts, will have people loyal to her. Why else are a bunch of Northmen freezing their butts off to rescue a young girl from a horror house? Because she is Ned Stark's little girl (or so they think). No-one is going to starve or freeze for Cersei or LF, but they just might for Sansa.

The only forseeable problem, is that with people like Petyr, who are incapable of feeling love, don't really respond to likeability so much as 'sources of narcissistic supply" (if narcissistic) or in the case of psychopaths "how useful is this person to me?" and "does possessing this person make me feel powerful"?

Now if Petyr is a psychopath, it must be said that Sansa is defenceless and powerless, she owns no assets or wealth but the goodwill of her father's subjects, which Petyr might find hard to understand, so I would tend to say that to Petyr, possessing Sansa is something that makes him feel powerful.

[Joyful Union]

Honestly I find the fact how people seem to portray Little Finger to be that good of a player is ridiculous. yes he is good, but not the way people claim him to be. And let's not forget he seems to slip up lately. Little Finger will go down. By Sansa of course.

How do you find it ridiculous that people (such as me) find that he is a good political player? He's managed to secure the Vale, he brokered the alliance between Highgarden and the Lannisters,helped assasinate Joffrey, and his plan to unveil Sansa and also control the North is quite a good plan. Hardly "ridiculous" to say that he has great skill, he's not exactly Ned Stark now is he? Now if you meant that he's not the one of the best political players (Thats probably Varys, or Roose), I would have to agree.

And when did he slip up? Maybe hen he kissed Sansa, and that just allowed him to murder Lysa and gain control of the Vale. Of course he's going to have his downfall, but it wont be because he was a bad political player, but because of his frankly disturbing obsession with Catelyn and by association, Sansa.

[voodooqueen126]

How do you find it ridiculous that people (such as me) find that he is a good political player? He's managed to secure the Vale, he brokered the alliance between Highgarden and the Lannisters,helped assasinate Joffrey, and his plan to unveil Sansa and also control the North is quite a good plan. Hardly "ridiculous" to say that he has great skill, he's not exactly Ned Stark now is he? Now if you meant that he's not the one of the best political players (Thats probably Varys, or Roose), I would have to agree.

And when did he slip up? Maybe hen he kissed Sansa, and that just allowed him to murder Lysa and gain control of the Vale. Of course he's going to have his downfall, but it wont be because he was a bad political player, but because of his frankly disturbing obsession with Catelyn and by association, Sansa.

Because it's all based off lies (many made up on impulse) rather than actual skill.

Imagine if you hired a man to fix your computer, because he lied and told you he was qualified, but he then broke your computer and still charged you anyway.

Or if you hired a man who didn't misrepresent his qualifications, and genuinely fixed your computer and charged the sum.

Obviously the latter is the better IT technician.

Politics is much the same: a politician or public servant is good if he is not corrupt, maintains law and order and does not bankrupt the country.

Given that in Littlefinger stint as master of coin, Westeros has suffered a civil war, is now bankrupt and Tyrion hints at corruption in Littlefingers book keeping. Littlefinger is pretty much a failure as a public servant. His only boast is that he is consumate liar, which is not something to really boast about is it?

[Joyful Union]

Because it's all based off lies (many made up on impulse) rather than actual skill.

Imagine if you hired a man to fix your computer, because he lied and told you he was qualified, but he then broke your computer and still charged you anyway.

Or if you hired a man who didn't misrepresent his qualifications, and genuinely fixed your computer and charged the sum.

Obviously the latter is the better IT technician.

Politics is much the same: a politician or public servant is good if he is not corrupt, maintains law and order and does not bankrupt the country.

Given that in Littlefinger stint as master of coin, Westeros has suffered a civil war, is now bankrupt and Tyrion hints at corruption in Littlefingers book keeping. Littlefinger is pretty much a failure as a public servant. His only boast is that he is consumate liar, which is not something to really boast about is it?

I would argue that lying is an excellent political tool, and that anyone who can skillfully manipulate the truth to his benefit is good politician.

Im not quite sure that I agree that he is really that impulsive, his plan to abduct Sansa seemed quite well thought, first bribe Dontos,then use Dontos to gain Sansa's trust, kill Joffrey with Ollenna's help, then take her away in the ensuing chaos in a boat. Seems legit.

Im also not sure that its all based on lies, apart from the pushing Lysa incident.

I agree that he is a terrible public servant, but his only aim is to aggrandize his power, not to genuinely improve things for the Kingdom, so in that he is succeeding in his political mission, and therefore a good politician. He will also use any means neccesary, setting him up as a sort of Machiavellian figure

The Chaos that his role causes (Civil War, the crowns bankruptcy and corruption) all seems to be to his benefit as well.

I guess it mostly depends on our differing views on what a Good Politician. Mine is someone who succeeds in his aims , yours is someone who works for the greater good and is generally a good person.

I do love these debates

[voodooqueen126]

I would argue that lying is an excellent political tool, and that anyone who can skillfully manipulate the truth to his benefit is good politician.

Im not quite sure that I agree that he is really that impulsive, his plan to abduct Sansa seemed quite well thought, first bribe Dontos,then use Dontos to gain Sansa's trust, kill Joffrey with Ollenna's help, then take her away in the ensuing chaos in a boat. Seems legit.

Im also not sure that its all based on lies, apart from the pushing Lysa incident.

I agree that he is a terrible public servant, but his only aim is to aggrandize his power, not to genuinely improve things for the Kingdom, so in that he is succeeding in his political mission, and therefore a good politician. He will also use any means neccesary, setting him up as a sort of Machiavellian figure

The Chaos that his role causes (Civil War, the crowns bankruptcy and corruption) all seems to be to his benefit as well.

I guess it mostly depends on our differing views on what a Good Politician. Mine is someone who succeeds in his aims , yours is someone who works for the greater good and is generally a good person.

I do love these debates

Well obviously, a good politician is a good public servant. I can't believe that this would be a surprise to you. Are you really that ignorant that you do not realise this obvious fact.

Bad politicians and bad public servants destroy nations and make life hell for the people living there. Many of the problems in the developing world are caused by political corruption/people like Petyr Baelish ending up in charge.

Someone who succeeds in his aims in a zero-sum/immoral way is not as intelligent as someone who succeeds at his aims in a magna sum/moral way.*

Someone who goes out of their way to be zero-sum/immoral when magna sum/moral methods were clear and obviously available is obviously malignant, maladaptive, and needs to be eliminated before they can spread their substandard DNA.

Certainly the plan to rescue Sansa was well thought out, but much of what Littlefinger does seems to be spur of the moment (telling Catelyn about the dagger being Tyrion's as are many of his other lies in AGOT, also kissing Sansa was impulsive, given his psychological profile, he is likely to be impulsive)

* I gotta ask what is with this culture of narcissism and zero-empathy amongst so many (usually male) posters? Do they think it's impressive to women that they share a psychological profile with Jeffrey Dahmer, Stalin, and a good percentage of the prison population? Because let me tell you, it isn't. Grow up.

[Joyful Union]

Well obviously, a good politician is a good public servant. I can't believe that this would be a surprise to you. Are you really that ignorant that you do not realise this obvious fact.

Bad politicians and bad public servants destroy nations and make life hell for the people living there. Many of the problems in the developing world are caused by political corruption/people like Petyr Baelish ending up in charge.

Someone who succeeds in his aims in a zero-sum/immoral way is not as intelligent as someone who succeeds at his aims in a magna sum/moral way.*

Someone who goes out of their way to be zero-sum/immoral when magna sum/moral methods were clear and obviously available is obviously malignant, maladaptive, and needs to be eliminated before they can spread their substandard DNA.

Certainly the plan to rescue Sansa was well thought out, but much of what Littlefinger does seems to be spur of the moment (telling Catelyn about the dagger being Tyrion's as are many of his other lies in AGOT, also kissing Sansa was impulsive, given his psychological profile, he is likely to be impulsive)

* I gotta ask what is with this culture of narcissism and zero-empathy amongst so many (usually male) posters? Do they think it's impressive to women that they share a psychological profile with Jeffrey Dahmer, Stalin, and a good percentage of the prison population? Because let me tell you, it isn't. Grow up.

Firstly, this is quite offensive, characterizing me as "ignorant", comparing me to the most brutal dictator of all time, and telling me to "grow up", is highly uncalled for, particularly when my response to you was nothing but civil. Though i did find your psychological profile of me amusing.

Your supereror "well obviously" tone is also completely uncalled for.

Secondly, by "good" I mean effective in achieving his original aims, which is to grow his power, which he has repeatedly been shown to succeed at. I do not deny that his morals are extremely lacking, but he only cares for himself, and therefore succeeded in his aim of improving his own lot in life.

Another issue is that you are judging him by a 21st Century standard morality and politics. By today's standard you could also say that Ned Stark is morally lacking because he wasnt voted into office as Lord of Winterfell, even though essentially being an autocrat was the social norm of the time In feudal societies the role of a politician or lord was never to improve things for peasants, only to secure his own power, and increase there own position in society. By this criteria, LF is a good politician, not a morally sound one, but a successful, pragmatic and calculating politician.

Im also intrigued by this concept of eliminating people from the gene pool due to substandard DNA. What other kinds of people do you consider unfit to live and bear children? This is quite an extreme view to hold, seeing as the right to bear children is a human right.

I would also argue that many problems in the developping world are caused by incompetent but well meaning politicians.

By the way, saying that my opinions on this forum exist in order to impress women was a nice touch, I imagine that young men such as my self always go onto message boards in order to attract women who don't even have there real names listed, or their dates of birth, and may not be women at all.

Even though your opinion is that I am a despicable human being and my opinions hold no merit, I respect your views, but not your insults or disparaging tone.

[brashcandy]

To the remaining presenters on male relationships: please remember that you can present your analyses in parts if it is threatening to become too big and unwieldy, or you need more time to work on later sections. I'd be happy to assist wherever needed, so feel free to drop me a line if you need any help with editing, etc.

[bgona]

YES! I just joined her in the live-blogging (well commenting on her blogging).....its going hand-in-hand with my re-watch and analysis (still in progress) of the Beauty and the Beast tv series episodes written by GRRM. :D

Where do find the episodes? At youtube? Cause I remember some of them but not the full episode, just some scenes.

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

First of all, "lickspittle" is one of my favourite words, ever. Second of all, I don't see Northerners going to the wall (not the Wall, hee) for Sansa the way they might for Arya. Even if they believe she killed Joffrey (which would probably only earn their undying admiration and respect), there's the whole "Lady Lannister" thing. Granted, that's Stannis calling her Lady Lannister, but still: the way Cat and Robb reacted after Sansa's marriage kind of felt like they were writing her off. I wonder if the other Northerners might feel the same.

She is still Ned's daughter. "Arya" is "Lady Bolton." That makes no difference to them. I don't see why Sansa's marriage would make difference.

Sansa's problem is that she has no gift at all for making friends (and I mean real friends, as in people who like her and don't just want to screw her, in any sense). Her one friend is, who, Jeyne Poole? People (who aren't attracted to her sexually) don't seek out her friendship freely or connect with her easily, and this seems to have been true even before everything went to hell in AGOT. Granted, she hasn't exactly been in many environments conducive to true friendship, but Arya seems to rack up friends wherever she goes, almost in spite of herself (despite her trust issues, safety risks, etc.); not so with Sansa. Mya Stone doesn't dislike her, but they certainly aren't BFF. She might have a shot at friendship with Lothor Brune, who seems like he has no sexual interest in her (although his loyalty to Littlefinger is a big problem). Littlefinger's tutelage seems to be making her less likely to form authentic friendships, since he's teaching her to lie to people, to trust no one but him, to hold herself apart even more. He's teaching her how to fake friendship; he's teaching her not to connect authentically with people, and to view them as pawns or as threats rather than as people. It's not as if Littlefinger is a great heartwinner himself, and he's trying to transform Sansa into a female version of himself, or, as an ASOIAF character would no doubt put it, "Littlefinger with teats." As time goes on, Sansa's becoming more guarded, not less, and guarded people have a hard time forming real friendships. I suppose Sansa showed hints of her ability to charm when she was making the rounds with Tyrion at the Purple Wedding, but she doesn't strike me as a person who wins hearts easily; she seems to step wrong as often as she steps right. There's also a difference between charming people at a feast and inspiring true loyalty and devotion to the point where people will put their lives on the line for you.

This isn't to say that she doesn't get a reaction out of anyone. Her superpower seems to be inspiring possessiveness or even obsession, usually obsessive lust. Her arc is a parade of men who want to sleep with her (Joffrey, the Hound, Tyrion, Marillion, Littlefinger, Theon, random dudes, etc.) and women who want a piece of her (Cersei, Olenna, Randa); I keep thinking of the word "covet," because people seem to covet Sansa like they would any other shiny, pretty object. While this ability has saved her a few times, it's created more problems for her than it's solved. For every save from a third party, there's a creepy or unwanted advance to be fended off. It's just that the sort of sentiments she inspires--in men, but in women, too (Cersei was really possessive of Sansa and felt extremely betrayed by Sansa's actions)--are not really about loyalty or devotion or any kind of higher sentiment; they're dark and even dangerous, both to Sansa and others. How many people have died or will die because Littlefinger wants Sansa?

1. As you pointed out, Arya and Sansa have had completely different environments. Since you pointed it out, you really should take it into consideration when comparing them.

Did Gendry, Hot Pie, etc. have a huge and obvious risk when befriending Arry? Nope. At no point did anyone who befriended Arya had to risk pissing off a king who liked torture and executions. They befriended a peasant girl. Or, in the few cases they knew who she was, they were already enemies of Joffery and the Lannisters. That is a huge difference than going from risking your life and status to make a friend. I can't think of a single person who risked what someone would be risking to befriend Sansa to befriend Arya.

Her situation at the Vale is different and a bit easier, but still not the same for Arya. Her potential allies believe her to be the enemy. She has to feel her way out and betray Littlefinger while ensuring that people who only know her as Littlefinger's daughter trust her. Again, I really can't think of a time when Arya befriended someone who believed her to be an enemy (and no, little boys who are jerks when they first meet her are not the same as people involved in political conspiracies [which befriending Sansa at this point would be by itself]).

As far as GoT, Arya was no different. She made one new friend. Syrio. A man hired by her dad. In other words, the difference is that Sansa was not hired a new teacher. Though my guess, this is because of Ned rather than either Stark girl.

In short, there situations have been so different, they really cannot be compared (at least in this situation).

2. While many (including I) see Sansa learning from Littlefinger, we don't see her as automatically becoming Littlefinger 2.0. Just like many who see Arya learning from the Faceless Men do not see her becoming a Faceless Man herself.

3. Sansa has shown many times the ability to calm down a situation and/or shown insight to hidden truths (like the LD's in LF's pocket). She is not just some object of lust.

Because it's all based off lies (many made up on impulse) rather than actual skill.

Imagine if you hired a man to fix your computer, because he lied and told you he was qualified, but he then broke your computer and still charged you anyway.

Or if you hired a man who didn't misrepresent his qualifications, and genuinely fixed your computer and charged the sum.

Obviously the latter is the better IT technician.

Politics is much the same: a politician or public servant is good if he is not corrupt, maintains law and order and does not bankrupt the country.

Given that in Littlefinger stint as master of coin, Westeros has suffered a civil war, is now bankrupt and Tyrion hints at corruption in Littlefingers book keeping. Littlefinger is pretty much a failure as a public servant. His only boast is that he is consumate liar, which is not something to really boast about is it?

I think the difference is you're not separating politics from ruling while the other poster is.

Think of the modern day. Some politicians are awesome at getting elected, but terrible once in office.

Also, I think you're both using a different definition of "good." You mean morally while the other poster is using it in strictly capability terms.

Where do find the episodes? At youtube? Cause I remember some of them but not the full episode, just some scenes.

It's in InstaPlay on Netflix.

[wonder1859]

Where do find the episodes? At youtube? Cause I remember some of them but not the full episode, just some scenes.

Here: http://www.youtube.com/user/BeautyAndTheBeastTV/videos?view=0

All 56 episodes. Have fun!