Heresy 23

[Black Crow]

Welcome to Heresy 23

Just for a change I’d like to illustrate what we’re about by quoting an account of a question and answer session GRRM participated in earlier this year:

GRRM doesn't read fan theories. Even if he did, he wouldn't change his writing plans just because a few fans have figured out some of the story. If you do figure it out, you can do a "superior dance."

We’re a long way off doing that “superior dance” of course, but the point of this thread is that there is something big to figure out in the story. It isn’t a straightforward matter of R+L=J, who will turn out to be AA, marry Dany and ride a dragon to victory over the Others in order to take his rightful place on the Iron Throne.

Some of us had our suspicions before, but ADwD opened up a much darker or at least very much greyer destiny for the Starks. Heresy is about challenging those early (and quite frankly pedestrian) assumptions and trying to figure out what’s really going on. The first incarnation of this thread series was actually entitled The Wall, The Watch and a Heresy, in which we questioned the real purpose of the Wall and the true origins of the Watch, and entered into the heretical thought that the Others might not be the real danger facing Westeros, that there might be a connection to the Starks and that both would need to save Westeros from Dany and her amazing dragons.

In the search for clues we’ve considered a lot of options and consulted a lot of sources, chiefly centring around Celtic and Norse mythology as we try to explore the true nature of the Others, although opinion remains divided as to how close they really are to the Sidhe.

Either way, GRRM has told us that they’re not dead, that we’re going to see the Land of Always Winter, that we’re going to learn more of the Others and their history – and that there is a connection to the Children, all of which is a long way from Old Nan’s description of them as cold, dead things, hating all life.

If you’ve been around the thread for a while, you’ll know what its about. If you’re new, don’t hesitate to ask and if you have the fortitude for it links to the previous chapters of the thread are given below.

Above all don’t be intimidated. Offer your opinions and theories and see what happens. All we insist upon in this thread is that discussion – and arguments – be conducted with good humour and a respect for the opinions of others.

[Black Crow]

Previous heresies for reference:

Heresy five (with links to earlier heresies),

Heresy six, (inc. the complete Old Nan’s Tales)

Heresy seven,

Heresy eight,

Heresy nine,

Heresy ten,

Heresy eleven,

heresy twelve

heresy thirteen

http://asoiaf.wester...8801-heresy-14/

http://asoiaf.wester...9643-heresy-15/

http://asoiaf.wester...0033-heresy-16/

http://asoiaf.wester...0554-heresy-17/

http://asoiaf.wester...0972-heresy-18/

http://asoiaf.wester...1492-heresy-19/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/71971-heresy-20/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/72274-heresy-21/

[Tyryan Lannister]

Reposting from end of H22:

That's why I subscribe to the old Heresy that the WW were originally some of the Wood Dancers who didn't think that what the rest of the Children/Old Races were doing to combat the invasion of the First Men was enough, so they turned to "darker" magics (Ice) in order to gain an edge; I would add to it that, when the rest of the Children found out about this, they "exiled" the now White Walkers and a sort of civil war broke out, and that, in order to fight this war, they made their peace with the First Men via the pact (and maybe part of the pact was that the First Men would help fight this new enemy).

That or the Hammer caused the WW, just like the speculation that it caused Dragons.

Or maybe some mixture of both.

[Little Wing]

Reposting from end of H22:

If the WW were originally CotF gone to the darker magics (ice) as you put it, how come they are so much different than the CotF, in appearance most prominently? Has something caused them to change physically?

[Black Crow]

I did once wonder if the White Walkers were "winterised" Wood Dancers, thinking particularly of the stealth armour, but on balance I nw see them a a separate but allied race not unlike the Sidhe, which isn't to say that they didn't once fight alongside the Children/Singers before withdrawing into the far reaches of the Land of Always Winter, and there's certainly no evidence that they were enemies.

[Harland Flint]

Either way, GRRM has told us that they’re not dead, that we’re going to see the Land of Always Winter, that we’re going to learn more of the Others and their history – and that there is a connection to the Children, all of which is a long way from Old Nan’s description of them as cold, dead things, hating all life.

Old Nan's description reminds me of the Frey's story that Robb turned into a half-wolf monster at the Red Wedding, and many other 'victor redefining history' myths.

This makes sense if we accept that the Night's King was in league with the Others and the combined forces of Winterfell Stark, Wildlings and Andal Crusaders overthrew him. Winterfell Stark wanted to justify their overthrowing the Night's King, the Wildings needed a justification for their antagonism with the Others (they were and still are, encroaching on the Other's territory), and the Andals wanted to whip up religious fervour to drive to Old Races out of Westeros. Everyone had an incentive to demonise the Others as "Cold, dead things, hating life".

[Efilnikufesin]

I am still of the thinking that the Children and White Walkers were usually enemies, but when faced with a threat against the land they both shared, was an alliance of convenience against a foe that threatened to take what each had. An enemy of my enemy is a friend sort of thing.

[Manderly Chef]

Why do you assume that the crusaders were Andals? It would seem that they would follow the Faith of the Seven rather than Rh'llor or we would see more traces of Rh'llorism in modern Andal religion. I agree with your theory about Rh'llorist crusaders but to me it looks like they were made up of a small group from Asshai supported by First Men allies.

[Budj]

Hey guys...incoming long post. I started it as an original thread, but wasn't sure if it would pick up steam so I figured I would throw it out here first. I just read the Ice Dragon and stumbled upon Bran's coma vision descriptions. It got me thinking about the role of the others in this story as I think there are similarities to Martin's world in the Ice Dragon and the Winter in the asoiaf series.

I think the easiest way to draw my comparisons is to first introduce how Adara is described in The Ice Dragon during her birth:

They talked about other things as well. They said it was the chill of that terrible freeze that had killed her mother, stealing during her long night of labor past the great fire that Adara’s father had built, and creeping under the layers of blankets that covered the birthing bed. And they said that the cold had entered Adara in the womb, that her skin had been pale blue and icy to the touch when she came forth, and that she had never warmed in all the years since. The winter had touched her, left it’s mark upon her, and made her its own.

Now in Bran’s coma vision of events that all came true we have Bloodraven showing him the heart of winter – proving this thing exists – and why he needs to wake up, live, and make his way (unknowingly) to the cave/three eyed crow. “Winter is coming…” Prior to that exchange he shows an image of Jon at the wall:

Finally he looked north. He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him ... North and north and north he looked, to the curtain of light at the end of the world, and then beyond that curtain. He looked deep into the heart of winter, and then he cried out, afraid, and the heat of his tears burned his cheeks.

Given the events of book 5 I think that Bran’s vision holds some weight – it appears like a metaphor for Jon’s personal struggles at the wall, however, with the blatant allusions to the Ice Dragon can we read into Jon’s journey a little more?

To add more comparisons in that text the next passage describes Adara’s interactions with creatures of Ice who identify with the heart of winter.

At the first frost each year, the ice lizards would come wriggling out of their burrows and the fields would be overrun with the tiny blue creatures, darting this way and that, hardly seeming to touch the snow as they skimmed across it. … Even Geoff, who was too kind ever to do something like that, sometimes grew curious, and held the lizards too long in his efforts to examine them, and the heat of his hands would make them melt and burn and finally die.

Interestingly, Adara, who was marked by the cold was able to handle these creatures gently…

After viewing Jon going through a winter-marked transformation we have Bran falling into the heart of winter experiencing the warmth of his tears like he was also a creature of the cold. I think the progression of that event (seeing Jon marked by the cold and experiencing what a transformed person would feel from hot tears) indicates that Jon may in fact become a regent of Ice in some fashion.

More similarities to Jon and the ice dragon / winter are present in Ghost. The warg relationship that Ghost and Jon have essentially makes them the same entity. Ghost is described as silent, never making a sound…

Its mouth opened and a blue-white plume issued, a long cold streamer that hung in the air. It made no noise; ice dragons are silent.

At the very least that is a potential subtle nod that Jon is a dragon (Targ) and at most it may indicate a stronger bond to Winter than we are currently aware of. Add to this that Jon looks the most “Northern” of the Starks and one wonders if that is another subtle hint to an ice connection?

At this point I think it important to note that in the Ice Dragon the creatures of the cold were not evil. Adara was a strange child who didn’t cry and hated summer. Always counting down the days to winter. Only in winter fields alone in the snow did she show happiness. All this is to say that people thought she was weird and void of emotion when they didn’t understand her. At the end of the story Adara finally cries “hot tears” as she realizes she has left her father/family to die and the Ice Dragon (who kind of communicated to her in a warg-like manner) dies protecting Adara’s family because she asks him to help save her family from the three fire dragons. When Adara made that decision the cold left her and her touch hurt the ice dragon. Will Jon’s family which caused him to break his oath also cause him to come back from the cold like Adara’s did?

Now I’m not saying Jon’s experiences will parallel this exactly, but I do think it is a pretty good foundation for discussion on the potential implications of this literary cross-over. Maybe he is claimed by Ice – a necessary “evil” – and then able to reclaim his humanity when Ice serves its function in the balance of the song of ice and fire? Is he actually Lord Voldemort? I don’t know – but I found these parallels making me think and hoped to generate some kind of discussion about it. We know there isn’t a big bad master villain in this story and there is also a parallel between Adara’s public perception and Old Nan’s description of the White Walkers. People fear what they do not understand.

All of this puts a new spin on the Stark’s vengeful feeling house words, “Winter is coming.”

[Tyryan Lannister]

If the WW were originally CotF gone to the darker magics (ice) as you put it, how come they are so much different than the CotF, in appearance most prominently? Has something caused them to change physically?

I didn't say that they were the Children, but the Wood Dancers (sorry if that wasn't clear), and the (albeit very limited) information we currently have on the Wood Dancers implies that they were the the "military arm" of the Children and that they were taller than the Children/more physically similar to the White Walkers (especially to the WW as depicted in the quasi-canon Season 2 finale). I'm not quite sure where this info on the dancers comes from, but do believe that it is a "reliable" source (where "reliable" means either from ASOIAF, D&E, WOIAF, or from Martin himself, all of which we know suffer from unreliable narrator syndrome)

[Lord Liam DarkStark]

Yeah they descirbed the white walker's armour as being similar to the wood dancer's armour...interesting.

[Black Crow]

@Budj

We've discussed connections to the Ice Dragon before, but never in such depth, and its also been speculated that the direwolves are the equivalent pieces to the dragons in the Game of Ice and Fire, but that suggestion about Ghost ties them together very well. As I've said before I think this widely trumpeted assumption that R+L=J is a red herring insofar as its not Jon's "secret" Targaryen heritage which is going to be important in the end, but the Stark heritage he must embrace and in that I like the idea tha Ghost is his Ice Dragon.

[Black Crow]

I'm not quite sure where this info on the dancers comes from, but do believe that it is a "reliable" source (where "reliable" means either from ASOIAF, D&E, WOIAF, or from Martin himself, all of which we know suffer from unreliable narrator syndrome)

All we really know about the Wood Dancers is that reference in Maester Luwin's history lesson when he tells how after years of conflict

"Finally, the wise of both races prevailed, and the chiefs and heroes of the First Men met the greenseers and wood dancers amidst the weirwood groves of a small island in the great lake called Gods Eye. There they forged the Pact…”

This equates the wood dancers with the heroes, ie warriors, of the first men and we are told:

In place of mail, they wore long shirts of woven leaves and bound their legs in bark, so they seemed to melt into the wood.

Hence the suggestion that in place of mail they were wearing stealth armour like that worn by the Others/Sidhe.

[Little Wing]

All we really know about the Wood Dancers is that reference in Maester Luwin's history lesson when he tells how after years of conflict

"Finally, the wise of both races prevailed, and the chiefs and heroes of the First Men met the greenseers and wood dancers amidst the weirwood groves of a small island in the great lake called Gods Eye. There they forged the Pact…”

This equates the wood dancers with the heroes, ie warriors, of the first men and we are told:

In place of mail, they wore long shirts of woven leaves and bound their legs in bark, so they seemed to melt into the wood.

Hence the suggestion that in place of mail they were wearing stealth armour like that worn by the Others/Sidhe.

Ah, now it all makes sense. I'm just wondering why the CotF seem to be preparing to fight against them instead maybe with them? Martin said the Others were dangerous, so I guess that's answer enough, but it always nags me how the CotF don't join forces with them instead of humans, especially if the Others are fighting for a greater balance in their world, against Fire. I guess humans need more help?

But, if Ghost would be Jon's Ice Dragon, than he'd sacrifice himself for Jon... :crying:

EDIT: If this has already been discussed up and down, sorry-just ignore me

[DragonSpawn]

Very small point I noticed re: Faceless Men, which could relate to an "Ice Dragon"

They have a meeting table surrounded by Weirwood / Ebony chairs and the main door to the House of Black and White is made the same:

Half Weirwood / Half Ebony - With a Weirwood face on the Ebony side and an Ebony face on the Weirwood side.

Weirwood = White and Ebony = Black

Making a small assumption that Weirwood = Ice and Ebony = Fire or Weirwood = Direwolves and Ebony = Dragons

Then could this be symbolic of a Direwolf fighting for the Dragons and a Dragon fighting for the Direwolves.

Therefore we could expect to see an Ice Dragon - I'm guessing Jon Snow... but also a Firewolf - I would guess Arya? - The TV show seems to hint towards this, but not so sure the books do - other than the chair and door descriptions. I'm not sure why this could be significant - except maybe to ensure that neither side is completely wiped out due to the taboo of kinslaying?

[Budj]

I'm really interested to find out if Jon ends up being "marked by winter" per Bran's vision. Everything in Bran's visions has already come true I'm just not sure how it would all fit together. Part of me is even wondering if Mel is busy looking for an AAR on the fireside...and what actually happens this time around is AA is a regent of Ice.

Then my mind starts racing about connections with the wall and joramun's horn. What is waking the sleepers? Are creatures of ice held up in the wall? Is that why it's such a magical hinge in the world? Does blowing the horn unleash the wall and whatever powers are inside of it? Was Ice too powerful before and now that balance needs to be reset? Part of me even wonders if we will see a Spring in the story - a dream of spring is the last book apparently, but that doesn't read "spring has come...." it sounds more like Winter is still kicking, but they know it won't last forever..?

Stark blood is special - so I think it would be really interesting to have winter enter a character (and add more awesomeness to "Winter is coming" being house words) and while I'm not convinced we will see an actual ice dragon in our story it would be pretty epic. Maybe Ghost is the key to unlocking it :P

[Manderly Chef]

Could the Heart of Winter explain the difference between the Wood Dancers and the White Walkers? Maybe the White Walkers are Wood Dancers who drew power from the Heart of Winter after the COTF fled north of the Wall

[FanTasy]

Then my mind starts racing about connections with the wall and joramun's horn. What is waking the sleepers? Are creatures of ice held up in the wall? Is that why it's such a magical hinge in the world? Does blowing the horn unleash the wall and whatever powers are inside of it?

I've been thinking about this a while now, since the last re-read of that chapter in ADWD where Jon visits the storage rooms.

He notices a change of temperature when entering the storage rooms where the meat is kept.

It is much colder there.

This seems logical, thinking about the fridge in our kitchens.

If you are fridgewise you know to store your vegetables and fruits not where you store the meat.

And you don't put oranges in the freezer.

But Jon actually reflects on that the store rooms seem too cold, even considering the wall of Ice that is on top of those storage rooms.

At reading this I started crackpotting.

What if the Others were not defeated in the Long Night by melting them into blue puddles?

What if they were locked up in ice and bound by magic to stay there?

I guess I always thought the wild walkers we meet in ASOIAF came strolling or riding south, from the Land of Always Winter.

But of course we don't know that is where they live or are bred or whatever.

It would be a nice twist that the great mystery is where they came from, and that the Watch is sitting on them.

[ab aeterno]

I've been thinking about this a while now, since the last re-read of that chapter in ADWD where Jon visits the storage rooms.

He notices a change of temperature when entering the storage rooms where the meat is kept.

It is much colder there.

This seems logical, thinking about the fridge in our kitchens.

If you are fridgewise you know to store your vegetables and fruits not where you store the meat.

And you don't put oranges in the freezer.

But Jon actually reflects on that the store rooms seem too cold, even considering the wall of Ice that is on top of those storage rooms.

At reading this I started crackpotting.

What if the Others were not defeated in the Long Night by melting them into blue puddles?

What if they were locked up in ice and bound by magic to stay there?

I guess I always thought the wild walkers we meet in ASOIAF came strolling or riding south, from the Land of Always Winter.

But of course we don't know that is where they live or are bred or whatever.

It would be a nice twist that the great mystery is where they came from, and that the Watch is sitting on them.

It would be an interesting idea, but I'm not sure it fits with the fact that there are no Others/White Walkers south of the Wall, that the Wildlings further north have taken the brunt of the attacks and the fact that the area around the wall seems to be fairly safe.

It would be a fascinating/hilarious twist though if Bran the Builder just built the wall OUT of White Walkers/Others.

[Budj]

Is it just me or does the wall also kind of seem like a frozen tsunami...?