Heresy 23

[Black Crow]

It has been very successfully (with proper scientific explanations) been compared to a glacier.

[Brave Danny Flint]

@Budj

Hey guys...incoming long post. I started it as an original thread, but wasn't sure if it would pick up steam so I figured I would throw it out here first. I just read the Ice Dragon and stumbled upon Bran's coma vision descriptions. It got me thinking about the role of the others in this story as I think there are similarities to Martin's world in the Ice Dragon and the Winter in the asoiaf series.

I think the easiest way to draw my comparisons is to first introduce how Adara is described in The Ice Dragon during her birth:

@Budj

Wonderful analysis I have also read The Ice Dragon recently and couldn't help but draw comparisons from that story to the ideas that have been fleshed out on the Heresy threads.

Quote

They talked about other things as well. They said it was the chill of that terrible freeze that had killed her mother, stealing during her long night of labor past the great fire that Adara’s father had built, and creeping under the layers of blankets that covered the birthing bed. And they said that the cold had entered Adara in the womb, that her skin had been pale blue and icy to the touch when she came forth, and that she had never warmed in all the years since. The winter had touched her, left it’s mark upon her, and made her its own.

As we know that Craster "sacrifices" his sons to the Others (for purposes ATM unkown), we also know that they start out life as new born babies then grow up and come back as sons, as confirmed by Craster's wives to Sam. When I read the Ice Dragon I couldn't help but think that maybe the Others can also proccreate with humans (quote in bold). The Others didn't take Adara once she had been born, she was already like it before birth and "came forth" from the womb "pale blue and icy to the touch".

This other quote from The Ice Dragon describing Adara:

"

She was beautiful, but in a strange distant sort of way, with her pale skin and blond hair and wide clear blue eyes".

Also she is impervious to the freezing cold and to pain:

"

Once when she was five she had stepped on a nail embedded in a board...and it had gone clear through her foot, but Adara had not wept or screamed even then."

Adara had bled human blood but crucially did not feel the pain. Much like a white. This isn't to say that Adara is a cold dead thing, she is different (when reading the book there is a real sense that Adara is capable of empathy and love and fear), in so many words she is an Other. Or half an other if you will, who just really really prefers it when it is cold.

We also know that the Night's King fell in love with with an Other and gave her his seed.

Later he fell in love with a woman "with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars", he chased her and loved her though "her skin was cold as ice", and when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul as well.

We have paralells with a beautiful pale blonde woman with blue eyes in the shape of the wildling woman Val, a wildling princess

. We know that Jon is tempted by her, he also initially turns down the promise of her and Winterfell, but as already discussed in these threads, there are subtle links to the Night's King (what will happen in the next book could turn this on its head).

There are no references from the books that the Night's King had heirs whilst he ruled with his queen so I know what I write next is very far fetched. If there were then they would have been half Other half human.

The discussion of changelings have also come up quite a lot in these threads and if I haven't fleshed it out much in this post then feel free to question where I am going with all of this. Basically what I am getting at is that the Others are not "cold dead things", they are capable of procreating and talking and fighting all be bit in an unconvential fashion and I am going to take a leap of faith (or judgement!!). Could there somewhere along the line be a blood tie to the Others and the Starks? Whether it was through Bael the Bard and his virgin Stark or The Night's King?

ETA: Sorry for the weird font and dodgy spacing. 　

　

[redriver]

@Budj

We've discussed connections to the Ice Dragon before, but never in such depth, and its also been speculated that the direwolves are the equivalent pieces to the dragons in the Game of Ice and Fire, but that suggestion about Ghost ties them together very well. As I've said before I think this widely trumpeted assumption that R+L=J is a red herring insofar as its not Jon's "secret" Targaryen heritage which is going to be important in the end, but the Stark heritage he must embrace and in that I like the idea tha Ghost is his Ice Dragon.

I don't see R+L=J as a red herring as such,but perhaps it won't be revealed in the story explicitly.

I can see Jon being taken by Ice and playing a pivotal role in destroying the Fire magic/Targaryen side by the end of ADOS.......

....then cut to Jon gazing lovingly into his babie's purple eyes!!

[Black Crow]

At this stage in the game I see no reason to doubt that R+L=J. My point is that its being cheerfully assumed by the majority of readers that this means that he's Jon Targaryen and will ride dragons to victory over the Others and take his rightful place on the Iron Throne, but as a heretic I strongly suspect that too many are overlooking the fact he's Jon Stark and that the point is that he could go either way. He could be Jon Targaryen the Dragon Lord, or he could be Jon Stark King of Winter and given the first option is way too predictable my money's on King of Winter.

[Kosh Naranek]

At this stage in the game I see no reason to doubt that R+L=J. My point is that its being cheerfully assumed by the majority of readers that this means that he's Jon Targaryen and will ride dragons to victory over the Others and take his rightful place on the Iron Throne, but as a heretic I strongly suspect that too many are overlooking the fact he's Jon Stark and that the point is that he could go either way. He could be Jon Targaryen the Dragon Lord, or he could be Jon Stark King of Winter and given the first option is way too predictable my money's on King of Winter.

I have been personally leaning that way as well. In the end, if Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's son, I think that he will always lay more stock in being a Stark. Being with the Stark family has shaped and defined Jon. Plus, given what he has been through personally and professionally, I don't know that finding out that he is some dead prince's son would alter Jon.

He never struck me as entitled, except when he first joined the Watch. (He did seem a little pouty then.) However, he has learned hard lessons. In the Watch, men are to earn their place. It is not given to them. His treatment of Satin and Emmett show that Jon looks for the person's strengths and does not judge them based upon lineage or past deeds.

I don't think that him being a Targ (or not) will be fundamental to his story. I think being a Stark and a warg will. Those kids and those wolves are linked, and I think as a group they will manage to accomplish great things - even over time and distance.

[WymanManderlyisAA/TPTWP]

My first post here! Big fan of the books(as all of us here are). Thank you GRRM.

I am also pleasantly surprised that so many people believe R + L = J. I agree that its one of the better theories(considering the ones we have seen in this same forum, wuff -some good crackpots(thanks to you guys)). But imo it could still go either way.

Back to topic, I do believe that the Others were part of the COTF at some point in the history of Westeros(most probably, before the arrival of the First Men). I also believe that the AA prophecy is more widely believed in Essos than in Westeros is due to the fact that the AA/TPTWP/Last Hero was from Essos and not Westeros (crackpot) Also an important point to note is that Essos/Sothoryos do not have lands in the north. The only continent(landmass) linked to the north is Westeros(IMHO, I think this is very important as most of you guys do not think much of this as far as I have seen) . Generally, people(mankind) has always been afraid of things they cannot understand - maybe this is why people in Essos who witnessed the Long Night/heard detailed accounts of it from Westerosi, have come to fear the Others so much as they havent seen/felt so much cold themselves and inturn have started idolizing that person as the embodiment of all things good.

Since it is their perception and the continued hints from GRRM that most of historical events have been noted down thousands of years later than they actually happened from maesters and such. This leads me to believe that the First Men from Essos, could have landed in the south and worked their way up fighting the native(CoTF). At this point, the CoTF start resorting to magic to stop them since they are not physically strong enough/few in number to take them on in battle. Maybe, an extremist group of the CoTF was formed to fight the First Men and they practiced black magic/sorcery which led to a rift in the ranks of CoTF. This in turn may have led to the group leaving th CoTF to go north(lands of always winter) since the CoTF were looking for a truce with the First Men as they were not ok with the First Men invading their lands. The truce happens. There are some years of peace between the CoTF and the First Men. By this time, the extremist group had delved deeper into blood magic/sorcery and become one with Ice(we have been told that CoTF are one with nature like trees and animals, why not Ice and Winter). They started evolving into creatures of Ice. Then when their strength was sufficient, they attacked the First Men and CoTF(as they cast them out) causing the Long Winter.

Hope this makes sense and I am not repeating the same theory someone else already discussed. Sorry I havent had the time to read all the Heresy threads.

My name is Ramsay, rhymes with Gordon Ramsay(makes sense if it was a reference/homage by GRRM) :P

[Budj]

One last HUGE connection I neglected to put in my initial post on page 1 was that when Jon falls after being stabbed "he never felt the fourth knife - only the cold."

Argue how you will, but I think Winter took its opportunity when Bowen decided to take Jon out. In the ice dragon it retrospectively seems that winter gave her the mark for a purpose and when that purpose was met Winter gave her back to "humanity" as it were...

Danny,

I hadn't considered the parallel to Craster's sons and Adara being touched by winter. I'm not sure what the difference is - one certainly seems irreversible though... On first glance the Night King's paramour seems to not be an other....but a human marked by winter...

This parallels to the occurrences in the Ice Dragon really add some meaning to this line too:

"Beneath her coverlets she tossed and turned, dreaming that Hizdahr was kissing her...but his lips were blue and bruised, and when he thrust himself inside her, his manhood was cold as ice." Disclaimer...I am not a Dany/Jon shipper, but this may imply more evidence of winter marked human(s) making an appearance?

[Tyryan Lannister]

I'm really interested to find out if Jon ends up being "marked by winter" per Bran's vision. Everything in Bran's visions has already come true I'm just not sure how it would all fit together. Part of me is even wondering if Mel is busy looking for an AAR on the fireside...and what actually happens this time around is AA is a regent of Ice.

Then my mind starts racing about connections with the wall and joramun's horn. What is waking the sleepers? Are creatures of ice held up in the wall? Is that why it's such a magical hinge in the world? Does blowing the horn unleash the wall and whatever powers are inside of it? Was Ice too powerful before and now that balance needs to be reset? Part of me even wonders if we will see a Spring in the story - a dream of spring is the last book apparently, but that doesn't read "spring has come...." it sounds more like Winter is still kicking, but they know it won't last forever..?

Stark blood is special - so I think it would be really interesting to have winter enter a character (and add more awesomeness to "Winter is coming" being house words) and while I'm not convinced we will see an actual ice dragon in our story it would be pretty epic. Maybe Ghost is the key to unlocking it :P

As a possible answer to you're question about "what is waking" and such, we took a look at the use of horns in ASOIAF back in H17 or H18 IIRC. During that discussion, much was focused on the Horn of Herrick which features in multiple occasions in Feast, where, when approaching Harrenhall, Darry, and Pennytree, Jaime has Ser Kennos blow the horn (three times, I might add) so as to announce their presence and gain entrance. So, we have evidence of horns being used to gain entrance.

Now, fly north to the Wall. We know that the Watch also uses horns: one blast gains entrance. A second wakes the troops for battle, and a third wakes them for serious battle with the White Walkers. So, the instance of three blasts here is in reference to the WW.

Go back early into the series (I believe in Game but possibly Clash) and we have a story about how, after the Long Night, the WW went under the ice and slept.

So, the theory that I developed through that series of posts (and it's a theory that I believe others in this community have developed as well) is that the sleepers are actually the WW and that, if the Horn of Joruman is blown three times, the WW take this as an invitation to come south of the wall, them needing this invitation being a clause of the Heretical Second Pact.*

*The Second Pact is the theory that the Long Night ended with a pact between the First Men/CotF and the WW, which established (and possibly built) the Wall as a boundary between the Kingdoms of Men and the Kingdoms of the White Walkers, with a few of the more stubborn man-tribes choosing to stay north of this new boundary and risk the wild (with some of them surviving either do to geographic aid a la the Thenns and their valley or through side pacts with the WW a la Craster and his filial sacrifices, with an additional theory being that these filial sacrifices were a part of the Second Pact as well).

[Ciazio]

So, the theory that I developed through that series of posts (and it's a theory that I believe others in this community have developed as well) is that the sleepers are actually the WW and that, if the Horn of Joruman is blown three times, the WW take this as an invitation to come south of the wall, them needing this invitation being a clause of the Heretical Second Pact.*

Uhm.. If the Horn blew down the Wall the WW would take it as an "invitation".

Do you think that someone (I'm looking at you, Mance) already sounded the Horn up North and woke up the WW?

[Lord Liam DarkStark]

The decorative chairs are symbolic to the house of black and white. I don't think they symbolize dragons and direwolfs. But I don't think the wall is a frozen tidal wave. If it was than the children called it down and froze it. But the way they describe brandon building it and weaving spells it sounds like blocks of ice but who knows...

[Lord Liam DarkStark]

I always liked the white weirwood growing from black soil relating to the black and white house.

[Tyryan Lannister]

Do you think that someone (I'm looking at you, Mance) already sounded the Horn up North and woke up the WW?

My personal belief is no, but that's only because I think that the broken horn that Jon found with the dragonglass daggers and gave to Sam (and that Sam now has with him at the Citadel in Old Town) is the Horn of Jorumand.

[Ciazio]

My personal belief is no, but that's only because I think that the broken horn that Jon found with the dragonglass daggers and gave to Sam (and that Sam now has with him at the Citadel in Old Town) is the Horn of Jorumand.

Indeed, I also believe that. Anyway, that the Horn calls the WW is not a big deal if it brings down the Wall too. Either way the big bad white guys are going to show up... I mean, if the Wall crushes, the WW would "sense" it, don't they?

Made to keep them "out" or made by them to keep humans "out" if the Wall brokes they would know. (IMO)

[ab aeterno]

Indeed, I also believe that. Anyway, that the Horn calls the WW is not a big deal if it brings down the Wall too. Either way the big bad white guys are going to show up... I mean, if the Wall crushes, the WW would "sense" it, don't they?

Made to keep them "out" or made by them to keep humans "out" if the Wall brokes they would know. (IMO)

Assuming that it doesn't just turn to dust and blow away in the wind, I suspect they'd know. You have to imagine that a seven hundred foot tall, (however wide, I can't remember,) wall that runs for hundreds of miles falls down that they'd feel and hear the resulting earthquake for miles around.

Edit: For reference, this is the Met Life Tower in NYC:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_Life_Insurance_Company_Tower

The Wall is as high as this tower and would stretch from New York to Baltimore with 40 more miles to spare.

For the Europeans, the Wall is more than twice the height of the Elizabeth Tower (Big Ben.)

[hotweaselsoup]

So, the theory that I developed through that series of posts (and it's a theory that I believe others in this community have developed as well) is that the sleepers are actually the WW and that, if the Horn of Joruman is blown three times, the WW take this as an invitation to come south of the wall, them needing this invitation being a clause of the Heretical Second Pact.*

I agree that the Horn of Joramun will probably need three blasts to activate its magic, but I'm now wondering if the Horn might wake up White Walker prisoners inside the Wall?

I'm seriously digging on the upthread idea that the Wall somehow contains imprisoned White Walkers. It fits with the idea of "trapped magic" that we see in other instances throughout the books: the dragonglass, aka "frozen fire", the magic gemstones (Mel's ruby, Bloodraven's moonstones), Coldhand's (possibly) trapped/frozen soul inside his body, etc. It also resonates with the meta-themes of slavery and freedom.

We also know that the White Walkers are supernaturally cold. If there are White Walkers imprisoned within it, perhaps that is where the Wall gets its own supernatural coldness?

This idea also throws a new possible motive for the White Walkers to come south: maybe they are on a rescue mission?

Anyway, just some random ramblings. Carry on :drunk:

ETA: regarding Jon being marked by Ice, I completely agree that he is undergoing a transformation over to the Cold Side. In Dance, he is forever being described with his tight, black moleskin gloves - which to me just screams Coldhands - and there are several times where he has trouble with his numb hands. There is one instance in particular where he goes from meeting with Clydas (I think), then returns to his own room and his hands are already so numb that he has trouble lighting a candle. Yes, the Wall is getting very cold at this point, but I can't imagine he had that far to go to get to his own chamber, and yet he loses feeling in his hands. For some reason, I think that this is important in that it indicates that the Cold is making its way in, almost like a virus. Interestingly, greyscale is said to affect the extremities first as well...

(I have this little theory that the Cold needs a way to get in, and Jon was punctured by an arrow during his escape from the wildling band. It goes to the idea of displacement, but it gets kind of crackpotty, so I won't go into details...)

Jon, of course, also has one burned hand. If Jon is being taken over by Ice, I wonder if that burned hand will somehow resist its effects? :dunno:

[Lord Liam DarkStark]

I don't think the wall will actually fall. I think the horn will change the magic in the wall. It will allow the walkers to be on both sides rather than trapped beyond the wall

[Manderly Chef]

Jon reluctantly becoming King of Winter does fit more with his personality. So far he has been very reluctant to take on leadership unless he thinks it's his duty and since he has no connection to the kingdoms south of the Neck I don't see how he would see taking the Iron Throne as a duty. Besides this we also have the Crypts of Winterfelll dream. If he's just going to be the next Targaryan king then why would he dream about reluctantly accepting some dark part of his Stark heritage?

Does anyone have any info on what they think the forerunner to the Red Priests were doing during the Long Night? I have some ideas but I want to make sure that this isn't something that's been discussed already

[Tyryan Lannister]

Does anyone have any info on what they think the forerunner to the Red Priests were doing during the Long Night? I have some ideas but I want to make sure that this isn't something that's been discussed already

Probably sacrificing a bunch of innocents to the flames

[Manderly Chef]

I have a kind of crackpot theory that the Burned Men are a the descendants of the Red Priests who came to Westeros during and after the Long Night (I think this group and their First Men allies was the group who fought the Night's King rather than the Andals). I got this idea after reading the description of Moqorro in ADWD. His skin is so black that it looks like it's been burned. There's some strong evidence that Melissandre is undead so I think Moqorro is undead as well and that there is an initiation ritual for advanced Red Priests that involves being burned and then ressurected. This is where we get into the parallels with the Burned Men. For their rite of passage, their warriors burn a body part. I think this is a distantly remembered version of the Red Priest initiation ritual, possibly a ritual for foot soldiers who would not be ressurected. I think it's also significant that the Burned Men leader is the Red Hand, like the Fiery Hand of the Volantis R'hllor temple.

I also think the Ironborn's Drowned Men ritual is another descendent of the Red Priest initiation, it's just been mixed with local beliefs. The fact that the Burned Men are First Men and the Ironborn follow a First Men religion makes me think that Red Priests/ Azor Ahai led one faction of First Men against the COTF, Others, and the Night's King/ King of Winter and their First Men allies. What I haven't really worked out yet is what the Red Priests' endgame is

[Black Crow]

As to the Red Priests:

“Benerro has sent forth word from Volantis. Her [Dany's] coming is the fulfilment of an ancient prophecy. From smoke and salt was she born to make the world anew. She is Azor Ahai returned… and her triumph over the darkness will bring a summer that will never end… death itself will bend its knee, and all those who die fighting in her cause shall be reborn…”

And some people think the Others sound scary...