Purple wedding in Season 3 or Season 4?

[Padraig]

While I think you make some good points.

The only reason that D+D have been against more than 10 episodes per season is that they want a quicker production cycle. If they feel that a slightly longer cycle and a couple of extra episodes is the only way to adapt AFFC/ADWD there's no reason they wouldn't be open to it.

It's very unlikely to be the only way to adapt the 2 books. Even if it could be done in 12 episodes.

And D&D want a 10 episode season because that leaves them flat out over a full year with pre, production and post. They can't fit extra episodes in there. Never mind the cost. I've never seen any hint of there been any flexibility there. Although fans keep bringing it up.

[freetickles]

I don't see why the audience reaction will be poor. If Meereen is done well, it could work as a sort of KL of the east, with some compelling political machinations + dragons. Providing a location is compelling there's no reason why certain characters staying there for a long time has to be a problem. I mean Cersei is set to stay in KL until possibly S7. Also it won't be 2 whole seasons ruling Meereen. S3 will be conquering it, S4 will be ruling as will half of S5. Then the second half would be her TWOW up until the battle of fire. So she'd be in Slaver's Bay for 3 seasons, but the story would be sufficiently varied and interesting.

Audience reaction will be poor only because they think she's on her way to Westeros and will be increasingly frustrated by her stalling, just as many book-readers were (and are!). I think, though, that similarly to Arya's story where I as a reader couldn't wait for her to meet up with Robb and/or Cat, eventually we just realize that things in ASOIAF don't always happen in the timeline you expect and you realize you have to be patient and just enjoy it. Hopefully non-book-readers will be patient as well and enjoy the story as it unfolds.

[protar]

While I think you make some good points.

It's very unlikely to be the only way to adapt the 2 books. Even if it could be done in 12 episodes.

And D&D want a 10 episode season because that leaves them flat out over a full year with pre, production and post. They can't fit extra episodes in there. Never mind the cost. I've never seen any hint of there been any flexibility there. Although fans keep bringing it up.

Well sure it's not the only way that's physically possible, I mean they could for instance merge AFFC/ADWD and then split them into two seasons. The obvious solution, but would it make for good TV? The more I think about it, the more I think not.

one 12 episode season with loads of action and plot progression would be a lot better than two slow paced seasons. There's no reason they can't add on another few months to production cycle and release the new season a bit later to make time for extra episodes. HBO's certainly not going to stop them seeing as GOT is their most popular show. They'd probably be very enthusiastic about the chance of more ratings. It's really just up to D+D themselves so while they want 10 episode seasons now, there's no reason they can't change their mind.

[protar]

Audience reaction will be poor only because they think she's on her way to Westeros and will be increasingly frustrated by her stalling, just as many book-readers were (and are!). I think, though, that similarly to Arya's story where I as a reader couldn't wait for her to meet up with Robb and/or Cat, eventually we just realize that things in ASOIAF don't always happen in the timeline you expect and you realize you have to be patient and just enjoy it. Hopefully non-book-readers will be patient as well and enjoy the story as it unfolds.

I agree it's a problem but short of completely changing the story, which I don't think any of us here wants, there's not much to be done about it. My suggestion is pretty much the closest thing to a solution: Make sure Dany is at least doing different things each season so it feels like there's more progression.

S3: In Astapor and conquering Meereen

S4: Ruling Meereen

S5: Ruling Meereen then with the Dothraki

S6: On her way to Westeros hopefully.

[freetickles]

I agree it's a problem but short of completely changing the story, which I don't think any of us here wants, there's not much to be done about it. My suggestion is pretty much the closest thing to a solution: Make sure Dany is at least doing different things each season so it feels like there's more progression.

S3: In Astapor and conquering Meereen

S4: Ruling Meereen

S5: Ruling Meereen then with the Dothraki

S6: On her way to Westeros hopefully.

Agree in all respects. Her story will also get more interesting when Selmy gets more involved (and I think he'll have a bigger role in S3 and S4 than he does in ASoS) and when Quentyn and Tyrion (and eventually Victarion) show up in Slaver's Bay.

[PatrickStormborn]

Dany is NOT conquering Meereen in season three. A leaked video shows that they have filmed the 'Mysha' scene, suggesting that her arc ends where it should -- her fourth ASoS chapter.

I doubt we'll even see a season five, to be perfectly honest. Not unless GRRM publishes TWoW soon. AFfC and ADwD could easily be condensed into a ten episode season... The problem, however, is that without TWoW they won't want to rush through the material.

[AdrianAegon]

It will be awesome that, after season 4, they will do a season 5 concerning the past, with Eddard, Robert, Cersei, Jaime, The Mad King (portraied by Jason Isaacs) , Rhaegar, Lyanna, etc. kind of a prequel season.

it will be made in expectance of TWoW, since they can't go really further, the arc that started with Feast and Dance being incomplete.

Imagine seeing the Tourney of Harrenhall, Rhaegar choosing Lyanna, the executions of Brandon and Rickard Stark from the order of the Mad King, The Battle of the Trident, The Sack of King's Landing, THe TOWER OF JOY, (omg, omg), and finally the crowning of Robert Baratheon. ... and since the tv series is slightly different concerning Time, we will be able to see a really young Viserys, and also, Daenerys! :X

I think it's a possibility! and a great one !!

[oierem]

Even if season 3 ends with Misha (and in theory they could inlcude the revelation of Barristan and Jorah being banished),season 4 cannot consist on Dany just taking Meereen: it HAS to include her ruling Meereen, and I agree that ending with ther Wedding is a good idea. Also, season 4 should end with Victarion and Tyrion deciding to go to Dany.

Season 3 will be a strong season for Dany, but at the end, the audience will start to feel that she's not getting anywhere... Season 4 must offer something new, and has to establish that other characters are going towards her.

The problem is, once you establish that in season 4, you need those characters to get together by the end of Season 5... That's way season 5 HAS to include all AFFC/ADWD material plus some conlussions (battles/reunions). As I've said before, it will be the first season to include material that hasn't been published yet.

[oierem]

It will be awesome that, after season 4, they will do a season 5 concerning the past, with Eddard, Robert, Cersei, Jaime, The Mad King (portraied by Jason Isaacs) , Rhaegar, Lyanna, etc. kind of a prequel season.

it will be made in expectance of TWoW, since they can't go really further, the arc that started with Feast and Dance being incomplete.

Imagine seeing the Tourney of Harrenhall, Rhaegar choosing Lyanna, the executions of Brandon and Rickard Stark from the order of the Mad King, The Battle of the Trident, The Sack of King's Landing, THe TOWER OF JOY, (omg, omg), and finally the crowning of Robert Baratheon. ... and since the tv series is slightly different concerning Time, we will be able to see a really young Viserys, and also, Daenerys! :X

I think it's a possibility! and a great one !!

The audience isn't interested in new stories, the audience is interested to see how the stories that have been started get resolved.

And all that backstory is already known... how do you make it interesting? how do you deal with the Tower of Joy without revealing the truth?

Not going to happen, I'm afraid.

[protar]

Dany is NOT conquering Meereen in season three. A leaked video shows that they have filmed the 'Mysha' scene, suggesting that her arc ends where it should -- her fourth ASoS chapter.

I doubt we'll even see a season five, to be perfectly honest. Not unless GRRM publishes TWoW soon. AFfC and ADwD could easily be condensed into a ten episode season... The problem, however, is that without TWoW they won't want to rush through the material.

Why exactly can the Mysha scene not be involved in her taking Meereen? And in any case, I heard from another poster that the video indicated it had been merged with Dracarys (though not sure on that.).

I don't see the need for all the pessimism about S5. HBO has issued a statement a while back stating that as long as Martin continues to write they'll continue to make the show. Now obviously they could change their stance, but it seems to me that given the popularity of the show (and given how much exciting material there is for S3 and S4.), the series will probably see things through to the end unless there's a major drop in ratings.

Obviously Martin's writing speed is a problem, but not as big a problem as most people seem to think. Remember that before AFFC he was getting out a book every 2 years. It was only due to the scrapped time-skip, the character split and the Meereenese knot that AFFC and ADWD took so long. I doubt he'll ever return to the same pace of writing that he had, but 2014 sounds like a reasonable release date for TWOW. Which means Martin will still be ahead of the game.

[Aerys Blackfyre]

season 3... it is known

[callmedodge]

Agree with all your points, but would like to add something to this one. I think it's really important to show the audience how badly the Lannisters are losing to Starks before RW happens. The Stark-Lannister war is presumably at the core of everything in the show so far, and yet we haven't seen almost anything of it, save for a short scene or two - the scene where Robb meets Talisa on the battlefield and Jamie's "Three victories don't make you a conqueror" line, and both of those were early in Season 2.

I know we won't have another Blackwater, but I'd really like a nice little skirmish and/or battle where Lannisters have their a**es handed to them. I believe it's important to establish this dynamic that Robb wins every battle he's in and yet is losing the war inch by inch outside of battlefield (Freys, Karstarks...).

Otherwise, the last major development of the entire war was at the very end of Season One, what with Jamie being captured and his army smashed. Nothing of consequence would follow in the entirety of Seasons 2 and 3, which would feel wrong, in my opinion. They have to stress the fact that the war is an ongoing bloody affair with Robb "sowing terror" wherever he appears.

I think a great way of doing this could be having Roose take over Harrenhal from "Locke" (the guy supposedly replacing Vargo Hoat) with Locke turning sides to the Starks. Then have Bolton ride out to attack Lannisters so there's at least some victory that doesn't effect any major plot, while he's gone have Locke capture Jaime and cut off his hand so we still get the that whole thread with Bolton and "Send Robb Stark my regards". Something along those lines at least.

[protar]

I think a great way of doing this could be having Roose take over Harrenhal from "Locke" (the guy supposedly replacing Vargo Hoat) with Locke turning sides to the Starks. Then have Bolton ride out to attack Lannisters so there's at least some victory that doesn't effect any major plot, while he's gone have Locke capture Jaime and cut off his hand so we still get the that whole thread with Bolton and "Send Robb Stark my regards". Something along those lines at least.

I think what will happen is that Locke will be a Bolton man all along (Locke is a northern house.) who will be "foraging" while Bolton takes Harrenhal. When Jaime gets to Harrenhal we get an offhand comment of Gregor escaping and we get the whole Bolton/Jaime convo. Then when the Bolton's reveal their treachery, Harrenhal comes under Lannister rule again.

[Lord Varys]

Considering that we now know a lot more about Dany's arc than back before ADwD was published, I'm convinced the will take their time to get Dany's story right. They will have to introduce new characters to us (Missandei, Daario, Selmy in his Whitebeard disguise), and they have to give us a feeling about this whole Ghiscari culture. They did introduce Dany's issues with slavery early on in season 1, and this alone means that they are not going to reinvent the story and let Dany take a short break to Westeros. ADwD introduced us to Aegon, and if they are not going to skip this entire, possibly very important subplot they have to keep the core of the Daenerys story of ADwD.

It's possible that season 4 is going to breach into AFfC/ADwD territory, but I'm sure that this is not going to involve the major cliffhanger endings of ASoS. They are way to good to ruin them in the show. I'm speaking of

1. Stannis arriving at the Wall saving the Night's Watch's ass, and Jon being elected Lord Commander (in fact, they have already confirmed that the main battle against Mance is going to happen at the very end of season 4 since they said that this is were the next big battle will placed!)

2. Tyrion murdering his father and escaping. His arrival at Pentos starts a whole new story, and since it has already been confirmed that the Purple Wedding is going to be in season 4, I very much doubt that they'll end season 4 with, say, Aegon's introduction.

3. Littlefinger murdering Lysa.

4. UnCat's revelation.

Other elements could be part of season 4, mainly

1. Arya arriving at Braavos.

2. The Kingsmoot of the Ironborn.

3. Some of the plotting in Dorne.

If they are smart they will not give us a Dragonstone plot in season 4, ending season 3 with the cliffhanger involving Davos's life. Stannis going to the Wall has to be this huge happy surprise! Thus they would have the time to shove some of the AFfC stuff into season 4, especially since there won't be any Robb stuff in season 4 as well. Some stories reach their ultimate conclusions, after all.

[protar]

Considering that we now know a lot more about Dany's arc than back before ADwD was published, I'm convinced the will take their time to get Dany's story right. They will have to introduce new characters to us (Missandei, Daario, Selmy in his Whitebeard disguise), and they have to give us a feeling about this whole Ghiscari culture. They did introduce Dany's issues with slavery early on in season 1, and this alone means that they are not going to reinvent the story and let Dany take a short break to Westeros. ADwD introduced us to Aegon, and if they are not going to skip this entire, possibly very important subplot they have to keep the core of the Daenerys story of ADwD.

It's possible that season 4 is going to breach into AFfC/ADwD territory, but I'm sure that this is not going to involve the major cliffhanger endings of ASoS. They are way to good to ruin them in the show. I'm speaking of

1. Stannis arriving at the Wall saving the Night's Watch's ass, and Jon being elected Lord Commander (in fact, they have already confirmed that the main battle against Mance is going to happen at the very end of season 4 since they said that this is were the next big battle will placed!)

2. Tyrion murdering his father and escaping. His arrival at Pentos starts a whole new story, and since it has already been confirmed that the Purple Wedding is going to be in season 4, I very much doubt that they'll end season 4 with, say, Aegon's introduction.

3. Littlefinger murdering Lysa.

4. UnCat's revelation.

Other elements could be part of season 4, mainly

1. Arya arriving at Braavos.

2. The Kingsmoot of the Ironborn.

3. Some of the plotting in Dorne.

If they are smart they will not give us a Dragonstone plot in season 4, ending season 3 with the cliffhanger involving Davos's life. Stannis going to the Wall has to be this huge happy surprise! Thus they would have the time to shove some of the AFfC stuff into season 4, especially since there won't be any Robb stuff in season 4 as well. Some stories reach their ultimate conclusions, after all.

I agree with most of those, but I do think we need to see Tyrion meeting Illyrio (Not Aegon!). Like I've said before, his killing Tywin is the best ending for HIS personal arc, but for the overall story we need to start seeing some hints that Dany is going to start getting involved in the main story.

[Lord Varys]

They could end Tyrion's arc with him saying his farewells to Varys. That would be enough, I think, especially since show Varys is not as subtle as book Varys. Shae inviting Tyrion to go with her to Pentos already showed us that she is Varys's creature, and connected Varys again to Pentos and Illyrio (although I'm not sure whether the TV audience only grasped that).

Seasons 3 & 4 should give us plenty of hints on Varys's overall plans, especially since they will continue to add additional scenes. When they discuss/introduce us the Elia and her children in season 3 or 4, they might add a scene between Varys and Tyrion where the former raises doubts about the death of Prince Aegon, or something like that.

Tyrion meeting Illyrio feels to me like the best way of opening season 5.

[King Tommen]

I understand the thinking that AfFC and ADwD don't have nearly the amount of great moments as the earlier books but I'm not quite understanding how there is any way that the show would be able to combine both novels into one season (even if that season was 12 episodes).

In terms of page count:

GoT: 700 pages

ACoK 770 pages

ASoS: 975 pages

AFfC and ADwD: 1800 pages

The show is stretching ASoS into almost 20 episodes (admittedly because it's got so many awesome moments) so I think we can safely say that roughly 700 pages of material can be fit into a 10 episode season. Anything more requires you to start cutting to fit it in.

So even given that some of the 1800 pages of AFfC and ADwD will be moved into S4 (how much remains to be seen although I don't think it's going to be a ton), that means trying to squeeze these 2 books into a 10 (or even12) episode season requires you to cut around half the material in those 2 books, which is a lot.

I'm all for cutting some of the filler that exists in those 2 books but half of it? No way. I think what is more likely is that S4 includes maybe 200 pages, a 10 episode S5 includes 800 pages or so and S6 includes 400 or so with the remainder of the season being filled out with stuff from TWoW. That still involves them culling some of the more ponderous stuff from the two novels but it at least covers off the majority of the important stuff.

You also need to remember that D&D have to give Martin a fighting chance to finish his final two books within the run of the show. Trying to rush through two huge books with 1800 pages worth of material in only 10-15 episodes doesn't serve anyone right.

To be honest, D&D have been pretty up front that from here on out, they are going to be delaying some events to future seasons and pulling some events from future books into the seasons so it's going to be harder and harder to say exactly where we are in terms of the books from season to season so this type of debate is going to become moot soon enough.

[Lord Varys]

AFfC and ADwD have to be at least two seasons, of course (seasons 5 & 6).

My guess is that season 6 is going to include at least one of the battles we are going to get at the beginning of TWoW, preferable the Battle on the Ice.

And ADwD does have its moments:

- The murder of Jon.

- The murder of Kevan.

- The Pink Letter.

- Dany riding Drogon.

- Cersei's walk of atonement.

[King Tommen]

In terms of Dany's story in Meereen, it's not that there's enough compelling things that go on there: The Sons of Harpy stuff is good and who exactly out of her new crew is the one undoing things for her is a nice ongoing mystery. The frustrating thing for book readers is the fact that Dany had an all-encompassing goal (to get back to Westeros and conquer it) and she simply seems to dump it in favour of something far less appealing (trying to keep slaves free in a distant city we've never heard talked about before). No matter how much intrigue or how many fun new characters are introduced, the audience is impatiently wondering why Dany isn't trying to get back to Westeros and that causes them to not engage with the story in Meereen.

IMO, the show should nip this issue in the bud and sometime this season (or maybe next) have a strong reason provided that explains why Dany can't go to Westeros anytime soon (her dragons need to be full grown, she needs to gain the acceptance of a culture in Essos in order for them to raise a large enough army to invade etc). Have her goal of getting to Westeros become dependent on something that needs to be accomplished in Meereen. Let Jorah or Selmy explain this to her and have it established that she needs to demonstrate that she can rule a large city in Essos before she can get the army and support she needs or conversely, the advice could be that she would be far better off to build her base of power there and allow suitors to come from Westeros in order to aid her (which is what ends up happening). If you make it clear that she just can't go to Westeros yet but what she is doing now will help her get there eventually, then I think you can help alleviate some of the audience concerns about her story.

And I agree with Protar: the sooner the show establishes the other characters are being drawn to Dany and start their journey towards her, the better.

[Padraig]

Yes. There is no logic behind the idea that there wouldn't be a S5. Unless one assumes that S3 wouldn't work.

As for GRRM's writing. D&D read aDwD a lot earlier than us (why else did they decide to make the show. :)) and i'm sure they'll have read enough of tWoW before they have to start working on S5, to know where they are going with S5 and S6 also. Most shows don't have things planned out that far!

And as Varys and King Tommen have said, my logic has always been that if they can make aSoS last 2 seasons (more or less), they can make aFfC/aDwD last 2 (with the beginning of tWoW also for more closure). There is plenty material there. Although, I don't underestimate the challenge.

There's no reason they can't add on another few months to production cycle and release the new season a bit later to make time for extra episodes. HBO's certainly not going to stop them seeing as GOT is their most popular show.

I think this is optimistic. There are plenty reasons. HBO has previously said that they want each season to have a regular slot. If there was no other option but have 12 episodes (or 14 episoes), they might buy it but D&D are creative people. They can make a 10 episode season work. Its not just D&D either. HBO are very comfortable with 10 episode seasons. They have said it themselves. Everything points to that remaining the same.

The very fact that they have said they are not tied to a book a season anymore indicates that nothing will change on the season length. They will do what is required to make a 10 episode season work. I may not be 100% sure of that but i'm pretty close.