Purple wedding in Season 3 or Season 4?

[ebevan91]

I think the PW will be around episode 3 or 4 of S4. It'll be a nice change from having the big events occurring in episode 9. Then I guess if they wanted, they could put Tywin's death in episode 7, then maybe the trial by combat in episode 8. Then Tyrion leaving for Pentos in episode 9. Then having him arrive at the end of episode 10. I think they will have some AFfC/ADwD stuff in season 4. I imagine the last 1 or 2 episodes will be mostly AFfC/ADwD. Maybe the last 3 episodes depending on how soon they get done with ASoS.

[Lannister Hamster]

Is that a general tv trope rule or where are you basing that on? Episode 4 of season 4 seems awfully late for the PW, Why don't start with it in episode 2 (after introducing back everyone in ep 1). That would feel the most logical to me, Anyways...

And I do think there's enough in Kings Landing for season 3 without the PW. Cersei, Joffrey's and Tyrion's storyline will center around opposing Tywin, all three will "lose" at the end of season 3 in that they are relegated to backseats (and the fact that Cersei killed her husband to get rid of him just to be told to marry someone else...). The Tyrells can interact with Sansa (and Tyrion), so in the end, with character interactions, you have enough meat on the bone ;).

Episode 2's are generally terrible. Think about all the shows you watch (which aren't serials) and the second episode of the seasons are generally for introducing characters. eg in Season 4 Oberyn (and any additional Dorne) and if they'll do a Kingsmoot then Euron, Victarion (and any additional Ironborn). I think it's just the structure of how they write these things. If you think in terms of acts then the PW will either close the first act or open the second and that will be a few episodes in. Besides, I'd rather build slowly to the wedding and then have an adrenaline ride to the end rather than sprint to the PW and then have to stall until episode 10 (Tywin's death or thereabouts)

[Lord Varys]

My guess is that season 3 is going to give us a lot of background information we are still missing right now. Thinking about Oberyn, we have to get the whole story about Princess Elia and Rhaegar, and how Rhaenys and Aegon (supposedly) ended up dead. The first season touched that topic, but it has be elaborated if they want to give us the Oberyn-Gregor-fight, and him stating 'Elia of Dorne' again and again.

Oberyn might not be met in season 3, but they will talk about the Martells, Dorne, and this whole Myrcella thing Tyrion cooked up. Giving us the details of the Lannister-Martell-enmity will build up tension especially when it's revealed that they will show up for Joffrey's marriage. Tywin might actually openly be pissed about the Myrcella contract. He could fear for her life.

Not only Oberyn is missing but Mace Tyrell hasn't been cast either, if I'm not mistaken. Yes, the man is not all that important right now, but one should think that he would be part of season 3 if the Purple Wedding happened there (it's his daughter's marriage, after all!). He has to be there in the aftermath since the Tyrells will be Cersei's main competitors for power in KL after her father's death, and (series) Tywin alone would most likely not conduct a trial against his own son if the Tyrells would not push him hard. Margaery alone won't do when they reach late ASoS/early AFfC, and neither Loras nor Olenna can command the Tyrell armies...

[Lannister Hamster]

Not only Oberyn is missing but Mace Tyrell hasn't been cast either, if I'm not mistaken. Yes, the man is not all that important right now, but one should think that he would be part of season 3 if the Purple Wedding happened there (it's his daughter's marriage, after all!). He has to be there in the aftermath since the Tyrells will be Cersei's main competitors for power in KL after her father's death, and (series) Tywin alone would most likely not conduct a trial against his own son if the Tyrells would not push him hard. Margaery alone won't do when they reach late ASoS/early AFfC, and neither Loras nor Olenna can command the Tyrell armies...

Either they'll cast Mace in Series 4 or give Olenna more authority than she has in the book so she can sit on the council. All we need is one character bitching about how its her that has all the power in that house or something.

It's not ideal obviously, but there are solutions to get round it.

[Lord Varys]

Yeah, I guess that's how they make it in season 3, but I'm not sure if Olenna can take over for Mace in every capacity. They need a man for the military stuff, and the interesting thing about Lady Olenna is that she is not the official but the informal head of House Tyrell. The dynamic between her and Lord Oaf would really be interesting, especially later on after Joffrey's death. It's pretty evident that Mace was not told about the poisoning plot.

And on the long run I'm quite sure GRRM has still something planned for Olenna and Willas, something differently than for Mace and Margaery who are in KL right now. Sure, Mace is not that important for the Purple Wedding, but I'd be surprised if they would keep him in the dark as long as the Tullys. I assume he'll be present at his daughter's marriage.

[King Tommen]

I think Mace is an important enough character that he will be introduced on the show at some point but they are already cramming in so many new characters into Season 3, a more fitting intro in S4 when he will play a larger role makes more sense.

When now looking at the possibilities for S4, I'm more inclined to believe that it will be made up in large part by the final sections of ASoS and they will focus mainly on the happenings at King's Landing. The arrival of the Martells, Joffrey's wedding, Sansa's escape with LF, Tyrion's imprisonment and trial, Oberyn/Mountain, Jaime and Cersei conflict, rise of the Tyrells, Margaery/Cersei conflict, Tommen's coronation, Jaime freeing Tyrion, Tyrion killing Shae and Tywin, there's a ton of stuff to cover.

The other plotlines will be further along in their ASoS arcs so they will probably need to pull a little from their AFFC or ADwD material or else have some invented stuff to keep them busy. I think it's a no-brainer to include the Kingsmoot stuff in S4 since it happens chronologically at the same time and it keeps the Greyjoys involved. You can probably also go to Dorne to meet Doran and Arianne as well which will fill out material.

Depending on where they cut Jon's story at the end of S3, he still should have enough good stuff to deal with in S4 from ASoS since they will probably build up the suspense for Mance's attack and Stannis' arrival. You also have a good additional plotline with Jon's election to Lord Commander which is fairly compelling as well and a nice way to end the season.

The issue is going to be what to do with Dany since it looks like she'll be pretty far along in her ASoS stuff by the end of S3. All of her stuff in Meereen isn't that compelling once she sets up shop there so they're really going to have to figure out how to make her stuff interesting in S4 until the other main characters start converging toward her in later seasons. Also, Arya will have very little to do in S4 unless they start diving into her AFFC/ADwD stuff. Bran too.

My guess is that S4 will be very heavy on the King's Landing stuff with a reduced emphasis on Dany, Arya and Bran. Jon's story will be beefed up somewhat but still secondary to KL and we'll also be checking in on the Iron Islands and Dorne from time to time as well.

[Padraig]

My guess is that S4 will be very heavy on the King's Landing stuff with a reduced emphasis on Dany, Arya and Bran. Jon's story will be beefed up somewhat but still secondary to KL and we'll also be checking in on the Iron Islands and Dorne from time to time as well.

That seems pretty reasonable.

I think the KL material from aSoS will last until at least E9 of S4. If not E10. They are not going to get a better climax than the duel followed by Tywin's death an episode later. A few people seem to think we'll have more aFfC/aDwD material than that but it doesn't work in terms of a proper seasonal climax.

They have plenty scope to play with Arya's storyline after the RW. If they want to tease us, they could show the BwB chasing down Arya and Sandor. Or as mentioned, bring forward aFfC material. As GRRM has said, he could write whole book about what Arya gets up to in Braavos.

I'm curious whether they have Jaime at the PW. Even in the books, he took an age to get from Harrenhal to KL. Given there will be a bigger gap between the 2 weddings in the series, unless they show him having a relapse, they might just bite the bullet and have him at the wedding. It does change the Jaime v Cersei dynamic and Jaime will blame himself for Joffrey's death but I could see them do it. It also gives them more material to work with before the PW happens in S4. I'm thinking it will be in E4 or E5.

Agree with all your points, but would like to add something to this one. I think it's really important to show the audience how badly the Lannisters are losing to Starks before RW happens.

Yes. This is why I think they may show the Starks/Tullys take Harrenhal in S3. Another victory.

[Lord Varys]

They could give Brienne and Jaime a little bit of the stuff Brienne and Pod get in AFfC. Meaning it may take them a while into season 3 until Jaime loses his hand, and ends up at Harrenhal. Not sure what to make with the gap between him leaving for KL and him arriving there after the Purple Wedding. Technically he could arrive there earlier, but I think it's crucial for the Tyrion-Jaime-relationship to meet each other again when Tyrion has already been convicted.

Harrenhal has to be end up under the control of Roose Bolton eventually. They won't drop this whole conversation with Roose/bathtub stuff with Brienne, I'm sure of that. It would make sense if Robb and Edmure teamed up to take Harrenhal, and then leave Bolton there to oversee it.

[Lannister Hamster]

In my opinion the Dorne stuff makes most sense in the context of a tv series by structuring it like this:

S4: Oberyn and an introduction and peek into Dornish life and the Dornish backstory with Elia

S5: Arriane and Martell - the entire AFFC storyline right up until the end of 'Fire and Blood' and revealing where Quentyn is and what he is doing in Ep 10, which sets up. They can also talk about the Sand Snakes without casting them.

S6: Quentyn - his quest to marry Dany, ending with the escape of the dragons. No Arriane or Martell.

S7: Back to Arianne and Martell. Ep 1+2 deploying the Sand Snakes (with whichever characters they deam crucial) and then move on with TWOW wherever it goes.

You've got to think that in S4 a lot of characters die and S5 is a perfect time to introduce the next batch of characters.

Wouldn't surprise me if they keep the storyline of Stannis offering Winterfell to Jon until S5. The election to LC I think is enough in itself for tv and I think for story pacing (and arguably simplicity) separating these two strands would be a sensible move.

Mace can command the Tyrell's armies but don't forget we have Loras and there is no reason why they can't add this element to his character as well. It's not about what happens in the book or in medieval times, its about simplifying storylines for tv.

Brienne's storyline in AFFC covers a lot of the destruction in the riverlands. This information and the themes should be split between Arya and the Hound and Jaime in S4 with the remainder for Brienne in S5/6.

Arya travelling with the Hound is going to be great. Don't forget they spent 2 weeks in a village which in the book Arya glosses over, so I'm sure they can come up with plenty of entertaining and interesting material for us, which ends with Arya either leaving the Hound for dead or getting on the ship for Braavos.

[Peasant Rebel Leader]

We're getting a little bit off topic here... Might be better to start a whole new thread about the various story lines ;)

Agree on Stannis offering Winterfell to Jon being later, agreed that Brienne's travels might be distributed to other characters and agree that they can prolong (or shorten) Aryas stay with the Hound as they wish. I'd say it's more likely we see Randyll Tarly than Mace Tyrell as commander of the Tyrells or otherwise, some Tyrell (Garlan) which will turn up later on in Oldtown for interaction with Sam/Euron/etc. As for the Dornish, I agree generally, though I think one can lose Quentyn until he turns up in Meeren (his travel is more worldbuilding and Volantis works well with Tyrion/Aegon/Golden Company there). But I don't think AFFC and ADWD will be separate seasons so your division-by-characters doesn't work, I'd say.

That said, AFFC/ADWD is one hell to adapt: 1) There are so many storylines and so many 2) There are no real climaxes to construct as seasonal cliffhangers and 3) it's actually the start of the second act after ASOS finishes the Game of Thrones. After some pondering on how to tackle them, two ways seem possible: 1) Move the series from Spring to Fall and add on 3-6 new episodes just for that season 5 so that you can tackle them all. Production time should be possible with another half year of production time. Afterwards, seasons can go back to 10 when many characters converge again... Or 2) Have massive simplifications in the story, f.e. merge Braavos and Pentos, delay the Golden Company and the whole of Oldtown to season 6 or 7, have Dorne be a one-or-two episode special.

[Lannister Hamster]

The Dorne thing I don't think you understood. I know in the book the Arriane and Quentyn chapters are parallel but I'm saying for tv make them serial.

There are a few problems with chronology etc but not unsolvable, but if Dany gets married in the second half of S6 they'll be able to build Quentyn for a few episodes and pull if off I think. I guess we'll argue it out later but I wanted to try and explain it a bit better.

AFFC/ADWD is Act 2 of the greater saga, which means it does have good natural starting points. Dany new Queen of Mereen, Jon as newly installed LC, Tyrion in exile/on the run, Cersei as new ruler of Westeros. The challenge they have is creating story arcs for everyone that work within the context of the story and the nature of 10 episodes of tv. The battles of Winterfell and Mereen in WOW should end the second act of the Saga so maybe one of them will be the climax of a series 6 - especially if GRRM is going to finish ASOIAF in 7 books.

[Peasant Rebel Leader]

Oh I think I did understand you, AFFC/ADWD (+battles/conclusions of the beginning of TWOW) are the second act, but it's hard to fill 20 episodes with them without doing a character split which would be a bad idea for television. So I'd rather have 10 shortened episodes or 15 filled out, but it's hard to find a good stopping point for your season 5 (I would end season 5 with ADWD endings... ;)). The Dorne situation I'd see us following Oberyn AND Arianne in Kings Landing in season 4 and then Arianne in season 5 in Dorne, when Doran reveals his plan, we switch to Quentyn who we get to know only in Meeren. (The problem with that approach is that we're behind in Meeren with the story then, but that's also somewhat true for the books).

But yes, this should be in another thread and I'm absolutely fine with your plan as well. We would get more episodes, that's always good of course ;)

[protar]

I think that they could feasibly do a one-off 12 episode season for S5 and, providing that plenty of material was shifted forwards to S4, this would be enough to cover AFFC/ADWD/battles of Ice and Fire from TWOW.

Material from AFFC/ADWD to be moved to S4:

Iron Isles: No brainer here. It chronologically takes place during SOS and it keeps the Ironborn from being offscreen for too long. The arc can end with the Kingsmoot and then Euron sending Victarion off to find Dany because I think we need to assure the viewers that yes, Dany will be linking up with Westeros.

Dorne: I've been unsure about this but I think it's for the best. Arianne can arrive at KL with Oberyn (no Ellaria.) so we can get some good conversations with them offering exposition. Then Oberyn can send Arianne back to Dorne after Joffrey dies, and she can instigate her plan with Myrcella. Throughout we can also get seeds of Quentyn's mission, ending in the reveal of Doran's plan in E10, again starting to link Dany to everyone else.

Continuing that line of thought I've change my mind and I'm going to say that we should see Tyrion in Pentos for E10. While I do think that him killing Tywin is the best ending for his personal arc, for the entire story arc I think we need to see him in Pentos.

Brienne's Quest: If this isn't moved forwards, then Brienne essentially vanishes for S4. I think that after spending a few episodes in KL, Jaime will send her out on an abridged version of her quest. Then in E10 we can reveal Uncat as the finale.

Bran in the haunted forest: We can't just have Bran disappear for a season but there's not much material for him unfortunately. I think that his chapters in the haunted forest can potentially be stretched out to 5 episodes, and he'll just have to take a back seat for a while.

Theon's first ADWD chapter: Rather than giving him an arc for both S3 and S4, I think it would be best to give him a S3 arc ending with the Reek/Ramsay reveal, and then not show him at all until S4 E10, when we're shown what a season of super-torture has done to him.

Dany in Meereen: Well part of it. Having Dany Taking two cities over 10 Episodes would feel repetitive and stretched I feel. So I suggest we cut Yunkai and have her take Meereen in S3 (Complete with the Barristan reveal, and Jorah's exile.). Then we can show her court for S4, up until her marriage to Hizdahr (though Quentyn's entrance can be delayed till early S5.).

[Mr Fixit]

Iron Isles: No brainer here. It chronologically takes place during SOS and it keeps the Ironborn from being offscreen for too long. The arc can end with the Kingsmoot and then Euron sending Victarion off to find Dany because I think we need to assure the viewers that yes, Dany will be linking up with Westeros.

Dorne: I've been unsure about this but I think it's for the best. Arianne can arrive at KL with Oberyn (no Ellaria.) so we can get some good conversations with them offering exposition. Then Oberyn can send Arianne back to Dorne after Joffrey dies, and she can instigate her plan with Myrcella. Throughout we can also get seeds of Quentyn's mission, ending in the reveal of Doran's plan in E10, again starting to link Dany to everyone else.

Continuing that line of thought I've change my mind and I'm going to say that we should see Tyrion in Pentos for E10. While I do think that him killing Tywin is the best ending for his personal arc, for the entire story arc I think we need to see him in Pentos.

Perfectly reasonable, I'd say. I like the symmetry of so many previously unconnected storylines suddenly starting to converge in a single episode.

Bran in the haunted forest: We can't just have Bran disappear for a season but there's not much material for him unfortunately. I think that his chapters in the haunted forest can potentially be stretched out to 5 episodes, and he'll just have to take a back seat for a while.

Bran is a very big problem, methinks. God only knows what Isaac Hempstead-Wright will look like in a few years; teenage boys can transform into some teenage mutant ninja turtles real fast, and then you have a problem. Also, he barely appears in the last three books. How many chapters of his in ASOS-ADWD? 6 maybe?

Perhaps they'll expand the mythological/prophecy side of things with him to pad things out.

Theon's first ADWD chapter: Rather than giving him an arc for both S3 and S4, I think it would be best to give him a S3 arc ending with the Reek/Ramsay reveal, and then not show him at all until S4 E10, when we're shown what a season of super-torture has done to him.

I like this one a lot. I think it would be a mistake to try and have all the characters front-and-centre all the time because, hey, they are on the payroll. His transformation would be all the more powerful the less we see the process behind it.

Which brings us to the biggest meanest problem of them all.

Dany in Meereen: Well part of it. Having Dany Taking two cities over 10 Episodes would feel repetitive and stretched I feel. So I suggest we cut Yunkai and have her take Meereen in S3 (Complete with the Barristan reveal, and Jorah's exile.). Then we can show her court for S4, up until her marriage to Hizdahr (though Quentyn's entrance can be delayed till early S5.).

If she conquers Meereen by the end of Season 3, what on Earth will she be doing there for the entirety of Season 4 and a largish chunk of Season 5 (maybe all of it) until all those guys get there? Two seasons for her Meereen arc? I shudder to think. Unfortunately, the chronology of all the other plotlines prevents things from moving much faster, I'm afraid.

[protar]

If she conquers Meereen by the end of Season 3, what on Earth will she be doing there for the entirety of Season 4 and a largish chunk of Season 5 (maybe all of it) until all those guys get there? Two seasons for her Meereen arc? I shudder to think. Unfortunately, the chronology of all the other plotlines prevents things from moving much faster, I'm afraid.

It wouldn't be unreasonable to have Dany in Meereen all that time. Her S4 arc would be ADWD material up until her marriage to Hizdahr. There's plenty of material there, and her conflict with the Sons of the Harpy would be made more interesting.

S5 would involve the introduction of Quentyn, providing a fair amount of material, as well as the added tension of characters like Tyrion and Victarion making their way towards her. Also if we did get a 12 episode season for S5, we could have her fly off on Drogon in say, E7, leaving the rest of the season to wrap up the final plot threads in AFFC/ADWD and to give us the major battles that will be at the start of TWOW.

[Padraig]

Also if we did get a 12 episode season for S5, we could have her fly off on Drogon in say, E7, leaving the rest of the season to wrap up the final plot threads in AFFC/ADWD and to give us the major battles that will be at the start of TWOW.

I think there is very little chance that we'll see a 12 episode S5. D&D have always sounded quite definitive on that. I think S5 and S6 will cover aFfC/aDwD and the beginning of tWoW. It will be the most challenging seasons to construct but they'll have the time.

Your points on ending S4 with all these Dany connections is a very interesting one. Could work. Although, if Brienne's stuff is moved forward into S4 then she'll vanish in S5 surely?

[AdrianAegon]

Guys, we now know that Tyrion's wedding will happen in episode 8 in s3, so the RW will happen in ep 9 or 10, the latter wich I preffer, altough ep 9 has become tradition to become memorable! The PW, I guess and hope will happen in season 4, ep 2, because is the event that triggers all the other things in this season: Tyrion's imprisonement, trial, Jaime and Cersei' rebonding at their's son funeral, etc... we all know them. Plus, the arriving of Oberyn Martell in ep 1, his presentation, and his interaction with Tyrion in this first ep, gives a backstory for people to understand why will he protect Tyrion, and the reasons behind it. for Elia, her children, revenge, etc....

So, if my assumptions are correct, for season 4 I mean, then ep 1 Oberyn comes, ep 2 The PW, from 3 to 7 or 8 we will have a stretching of the story, and the bulk of it, with ep 7 we see Shae and Varys turning their backs on Tyrion, ep 8 the great battle between Oberyn and the Mountain, ep 9 Tyrion gets rescued and becomes a kinslayer (again ep 9 is memorable), and the finale will bring Tyrion in ADwD and his presentation to Ilyrio. Varys may be there, and also Griff and Young Griff, who knows...

The finale will have, as a shocking event, not that ep 9 didn't had enough, the revelation at the Eyrie, about Jon Arryn, and the death of Lisa... I can picture so vividly Sansa's confusion, shock and horror! a perfect ending wich concludes the arc of the first three books... starts with Jon Arryn... ends with Jon Arryn...

[Peasant Rebel Leader]

I'd agree, I see episode 1 of season 4 introducing Oberyn, Arianne and maybe Mace Tyrell while having action at the Nightfort (Sam/Bran) and in the East (slaves point to Meeren) and episode 2 having the first battle at Castle Black interspersed with the wedding (Joffrey cuts Tyrions book, Chalice given, Ceremony) leading up to Joffrey joking as the cliffhanger (so while everything points to Lannister triumph and Jon as the last Stark dying, the episode ends just the opposite way around). Episode 3 then can deal with Tyrion imprisonment, Sansa's escape, etc. That however would lead to Jaime only appearing in ep. 4 if they don't change it and he attends Joffreys Wedding. Well...

I wouldn't have Griff and Young Griff and Lysa's death in season 4 as they are the start of story arcs for season 5/6, the quest for Dany('s Dragons) and Littlefinger's Games/Vale Leadership respectively. I fully think Tywin's Death, Stannis at the Wall, Bran maybe at the cave (not in it!) and maybe Asha realizing she needs to save Theon for another kingsmoot is enough drama for the end of that season. The Jon Arryn-was-killed-by-Lysa reveal isn't that powerful for the tv series, we hardly knew the man after all, and we will have the "dagger reveal" as well in that season...

I'm curious on how they intend to spice up Tyrions and Sansas wedding. It's obviously something bigger than in the books though.

[Mr Fixit]

It wouldn't be unreasonable to have Dany in Meereen all that time. Her S4 arc would be ADWD material up until her marriage to Hizdahr. There's plenty of material there, and her conflict with the Sons of the Harpy would be made more interesting.

Oh, I know there's sufficient material. I'm just pointing to the unfortunate fact that Dany is going to have 2 whole seasons (and even a part of S3 maybe, conquering the city) in Meereen. We all know how audience is bound to react to that.

[protar]

I think there is very little chance that we'll see a 12 episode S5. D&D have always sounded quite definitive on that. I think S5 and S6 will cover aFfC/aDwD and the beginning of tWoW. It will be the most challenging seasons to construct but they'll have the time.

Although, if Brienne's stuff is moved forward into S4 then she'll vanish in S5 surely?

The only reason that D+D have been against more than 10 episodes per season is that they want a quicker production cycle. If they feel that a slightly longer cycle and a couple of extra episodes is the only way to adapt AFFC/ADWD there's no reason they wouldn't be open to it, and no reason why HBO wouldn't agree to it providing the show continues to be successful.

Also about Brienne, yes she would vanish for a lot of S5 (Though we'll Jaime's AFFC/ADWD and possibly some of his TWOW stuff.). However it would be for dramatic purposes, with the audience not knowing her fate, rather than just fading into the background for no defined reason.

Oh, I know there's sufficient material. I'm just pointing to the unfortunate fact that Dany is going to have 2 whole seasons (and even a part of S3 maybe, conquering the city) in Meereen. We all know how audience is bound to react to that.

I don't see why the audience reaction will be poor. If Meereen is done well, it could work as a sort of KL of the east, with some compelling political machinations + dragons. Providing a location is compelling there's no reason why certain characters staying there for a long time has to be a problem. I mean Cersei is set to stay in KL until possibly S7. Also it won't be 2 whole seasons ruling Meereen. S3 will be conquering it, S4 will be ruling as will half of S5. Then the second half would be her TWOW up until the battle of fire. So she'd be in Slaver's Bay for 3 seasons, but the story would be sufficiently varied and interesting.