Beauty and self-image

[Le Cygne]

Yes, let's talk some more about the men. :)

Brienne thinks Gendry looks like Renly (I like the things she notices):

Brienne turned, and saw a ghost. Renly. No hammerblow to the heart could have felled her half so hard. “My lord?” she gasped. “Lord?” The boy pushed back a lock of black hair that had fallen across his eyes. “I’m just a smith.” He is not Renly, Brienne realized. Renly is dead. Renly died in my arms, a man of one-and-twenty. This is a only a boy. A boy who looked as Renly had, the first time he came to Tarth. No, younger. His jaw is squarer, his brows bushier. Renly had been lean and lithe, whereas this boy had the heavy shoulders and muscular right arm so often seen on smiths. He wore a long leather apron, but under it his chest was bare. A dark stubble covered his cheeks and chin, and his hair was a thick black mop that grew down past his ears. King Renly’s hair had been that same coal black, but his had always been washed and brushed and combed. Sometimes he cut it short, and sometimes he let it fall loose to his shoulders, or tied it back behind his head with a golden ribbon, but it was never tangled or matted with sweat. And though his eyes had been that same deep blue, Lord Renly’s eyes had always been warm and welcoming, full of laughter, whereas this boy’s eyes brimmed with anger and suspicion.

"And though his eyes had been that same deep blue, Lord Renly’s eyes had always been warm and welcoming, full of laughter..."

Awwwwww... He was nice to her.

Spotted this too, in the same chapter:

The girl was too young and too plain to be Sansa Stark, but she was of the right age to be the younger sister, and even Lady Catelyn had said that Arya lacked her sister’s beauty.

[Kosh Naranek]

LittleFinger...There is an interesting one. He seems quite conscious of his clothing. Actually...have you...readers (not sure of a good word - I almost typed ladies) noticed that quite a few of the men seem to like their fancy duds?

1. LittleFinger and his clothes.

2. Renly def dressed to impress.

3. Varys with his powders and slippers. (Granted I think Varys does this so that people underestimate him.)

4. Daario

What does the choice of clothing say?

Littlefinger was always neat and trimmed. He wore fancy clothes with nice cloaks and mockingjay pins. - He was born poor and wanted to remind others how he had risen and prospered?

Of course it could all come down to conspicuous consumption.

[Le Cygne]

Daario, I have developed quite a fascination lately. Saw this the other day, Dany said he dyed his hair blue for her:

He had dyed it afresh for her, taking it from purple back to blue, as it had been when first she met him.

We need some Littlefinger quotes.

[Kosh Naranek]

Daario, I have developed quite a fascination lately. Saw this the other day, Dany said he dyed his hair blue for her:

I cannot for the life of me figure out why Dany is attracted to that hair-dying dingleberry. I just read her blathering on about him and think, WHAT? Ser Grandfather is hotter. Moonboy is more fetching.

[Le Cygne]

But she is. I know everyone keeps saying this but I always pictured him as Captain Jack Sparrow, too.

If you picture him without the blue hair, does that help?

[lilenadheas]

I cannot for the life of me figure out why Dany is attracted to that hair-dying dingleberry. I just read her blathering on about him and think, WHAT? Ser Grandfather is hotter. Moonboy is more fetching.

I would honestly rather bed Littlefinger. :stillsick: I now hate Daario even more for making me realise this...

[Little Wing]

Theon was also into fancy clothes.

And as for Daario... well, even if I overlook the clothing and dyed hair...everywhere :ack: the golden tooth is what always gives me the final :ack: + :stillsick:

[Kosh Naranek]

But she is. I know everyone keeps saying this but I always pictured him as Captain Jack Sparrow, too.

If you picture him without the blue hair, does that help?

I just need to think of Johnny Deep acting like a Rolling Stone pirate - understood!

BUT - I can't. I think my loathing has gone too far and my brain refuses to process positive Daario thoughts. Daario = appealing does not compute. Mentally blue screening.

[Le Cygne]

Jaime can't seem to look bad:

Jaime Lannister had been allowed no razor since the night he was taken in the Whispering Wood, and a shaggy beard covered his face, once so like the queen’s. Glinting gold in the lamplight, the whiskers made him look like some great yellow beast, magnificent in chains. His unwashed hair fell to his shoulders in ropes and tangles, the clothes were rotting on his body, his face was pale and wasted . . . and even so, the power and the beauty of the man were still apparent.

[Kosh Naranek]

Daario, I have developed quite a fascination lately. Saw this the other day, Dany said he dyed his hair blue for her:

We need some Littlefinger quotes.

I don't have my Kindle with me. I am re-reading book 1 right now. Most of the descriptions of LF come from Ned. Ned seems to remark more on his facial hair and clothing, as I recall.

[Le Cygne]

A small man:

The years had not changed him much. Petyr had been a small boy, and he had grown into a small man, an inch or two shorter than Catelyn, slender and quick, with the sharp features she remembered and the same laughing grey-green eyes. He had a little pointed chin beard now, and threads of silver in his dark hair, though he was still shy of thirty. They went well with the silver mockingbird that fastened his cloak. Even as a child, he had always loved his silver.

[James Arryn]

It seems to me that any self-esteem which is premised on corrolation with external standards, be they physical or otherwise, isn't actually self-esteem, but a manifestation of an insecure need for afirmation.

I'm good looking and I'm confident, but I hope to hell one has nothing to do with the other.

[lilenadheas]

A small man:

I may be wrong, but isn't Littlefinger usually described as smiling without it extending to his eyes? It feels like every time Sansa mentions him smiling she says "a smile that did not touch his eyes" or something along those lines... I'm sure more characters do too. Very interesting. I shall investigate!

[Little Wing]

I may be wrong, but isn't Littlefinger usually described as smiling without it extending to his eyes? It feels like every time Sansa mentions him smiling she says "a smile that did not touch his eyes" or something along those lines... I'm sure more characters do too. Very interesting. I shall investigate!

I remember Tyrion saying that about Ben Plum's eyes, but Littlefinger fits that description easily as well.

[Alia of the knife]

Most of this thread seems to be women judging women, and women judging other womens' judgement of women.

You're right. And I am judging women's judgement of women. What a tongue twister! :)

Here's the thing. When women do this to one another, it perpetuates the idea that the most important, or the most relevant thing about me as a female, is my appearance. My appearance should be secondary, or tertiary, to my character, my actions, my motivations.

GRRM has spent the whole series hammering home the theme that appearances are deceiving. We see it with Cersei, who is so lovely on the outside, and so rotten on the inside. We see it with Sam and Brienne, who's appearances belie the lovely character their outside conceals.

And yet, this thread has become a discussion about Cat, what a bad woman/mother she is, and what Arya, Targs, and Lyanna really looked like. Why? Who cares? I mean, I understand that we as readers, want to imagine it to make the reading experience more vivid, but I dunno.

It really gets me down that we can't or won't rise above this stuff.

I think for me the primary thing that stood out is that you have at least one main character, Arya who is like her Aunt Lyanna, a ghost who haunts this series, but of these two, the one we know had looks going for her, (and yes, likely Arya will too), who make vastly different choices than the other beautiful women of this series.

If Lyanna was the Knight of the Laughing Tree, then fighting for Reeds honor is a departure from the conventional Westerosi female. She confronted the issue of honor, or the lack of it, willful or no, head-on at great risk to herself.

If Rhaegar had been a Viserys, he may very well have turned her over to Aerys.

Thats why I say that I hope that the merits of the KotLT and what it symbolically represents stand alone, and not be just another salacious plot device for Rhaegar and Lyanna to meet.

And Arya was offered the chance to go to the two most exclusive Courtesans, The Black Pearl and The Daughter of the Dusk (these aren't LF), to be tutored in the Arts of Love and comapanionship. i.e., an easy life, much like the one Lynesse Hightower took after leaving Jorah, BUT Arya didn't choose that.

So for me, Martin using the ideal of beauty is more of a literary device that creates a narrative for choices within a limited-choice society.

Brienne makes the same choices as I'm sure her Fathers wealth would buy her someone if she so desired that life, but perhaps hides behind her "lack of beauty" in order to purue the life she did really want.

There actually would be much more pressure on the likes of Lyanna and Arya to conform because of their beauty. For the men of Westerosi society, Briennes looks at a glance provide an excuse for the choice she makes.

But for an Arya or a Lyanna, their choices are a slap in the face to that society.

It would take very special men to love Lyanna, Brienne, and Arya just because they dared to contemplate having choices.

[Alia of the knife]

Of all the men whose self-image may be most intringueing is Varys.

Due to his background as a Mummer, or an undermining Blackfyre, it's hard to get a read on him.

Does he use his myriad personalities to really promote good for the Kingdom, because he sees himself as an agent of balance?

Or, as a possible Blackfyre, does he see his role as a duty to put not the rightful line on the Iron Throne, but the most effective line on the throne?

[Le Cygne]

And all the people around them have their own story to tell. So when they interact, that takes things to another level. There's more than a game of thrones going on.

Sansa on Littlefinger:

Littlefinger was only a mask he had to wear. Only sometimes Sansa found it hard to tell where the man ended and the mask began. Littlefinger and Lord Petyr looked so very much alike.

[Florina Laufeyson]

Sorry that you're taking off. I can see how you could be frustrated, but this is a subject based on feeling, not logic.

I'm a male reader and my favorite female characters aren't the pretty ones. I think Arya and Briennne are awesome. I like what Sansa's becoming, not her auburn locks. Lady Olenna is cool. Hard not to like Ygritte, no great beauty, either, except for her one unfortunate figure of speech. On the other hand Cersei's lovely and vile. Taena's attractive and a scheming double agent. And then there's Melisandre. Actually outside Arianne there are few really attractive female characters I like.

Most of this thread seems to be women judging women, and women judging other womens' judgement of women.

Light A Wight Tonight (love that username!) is on to something here. As for me, i try very hard to not "mean girl" because i know what its like to be on the receiving end of that. (especially by people who arent better looking than i am.) I liked a lot of the ladies for various reasons. The only ones i dont like are Cersei and Asha. (But i am kinda warming up to her.) Asha's cultural disposition is why i dont care for her much. Not her personality or her looks.

I don't believe that Arya is too young for beauty and self image to matter. Her next assignment needs a pretty face. At 12 she already has insecurities over how she looks and wants to change her face and has no problem with getting rid of her hair. She's just a year younger than Dany in AGoT and Lyanna at Harrenhal.

Shireen was mentioned before. She is also young enough to have self awareness which is exemplified by her blushing when Jon shows kindness to her. She likely is not used to it and is very shy as a result of it.

Gendry is not young but I've mentioned before how he seems to be sensitive about how he looks.

I suppose more male characters could be discussed like say if LF has a Napoleon complex for example.

Arr. I was around 10 when i started noticing myself in that sort of manner. Even little girls are self-aware. Some even younger. Boys (usually) start noticing themselves a wee bit later. (around 12 and 13)

And yes let us discuss more mangs!

But she is. I know everyone keeps saying this but I always pictured him as Captain Jack Sparrow, too.

If you picture him without the blue hair, does that help?

I picture him looking VERY much like Jack Sparrow. Only without the lovable charisma. Daario has a slimier sort of personality. My wish is for Dany to see it and if and when she does, he wont be as pretty to her. I see him more like Grave-Robber from Repo! The Genetic Opera too!

Snip

Yes. Very much. You pretty much nailed why i like Rhaegar. Lyanna was willful and challenging. I have a feeling Robert Baratheon wouldnt have been too excited about her once he got to know the real Lyanna. Rhaegar, its implied that she was KotLT and he seemed to fall for that. He loved her spirit and energy. And that she was willing to be all "fuck the police!" and fight on her own. This is the biggest reason im a Rhaegar fan.

Varys is such an enigma...Its rather difficult to see how he sees himself. He seems to feel that he has the skills, so he is a man of many faces. There are some...unusual parallels to Varys and the Faceless Men. Varys doesnt use magic or anything to change himself, but why he does it seems to be the very same reason(s) as the Faceless Men. Varys himself doesnt seem to get his hands dirty, his little birds do that for him. But disguising himself and using his mummer's talent to gain information and move without being noticed. (A reason why im a Varys fan!)

He does seem very self-aware of his...condition as a eunuch and he uses this to get people to underestimate him. Along with the "prissy" attire during the Small Counsel meetings and junk.

[Currawong]

Most of this thread seems to be women judging women, and women judging other womens' judgement of women.

True, and of course that's only one part of the issue. In a 'beauty and self image' thread, there are two elements - how others see a person, and how the person sees herself/himself. As some of the posts have drawn out, the external perceptions may depend on the viewer's gender, because it's interesting to see the subtle differences at times between how men and women see the same person. Of course, we then also ask whether there are differences in self-perception between male and female characters. Is their self image bound up solely with their physical appearance, or is it also a combination of appearance and behaviour? (This is why I don't really think it is much use discussing people like Lyanna, dead Targs, and so on - we don't know how they saw themselves, so we have no idea of the self-image aspect).

Alia of the knife makes an interesting point here, asking whether the issue of 'beauty' in the books is a device to highlight the issue of choice, or its lack, in the case of women:-

So for me, Martin using the ideal of beauty is more of a literary device that creates a narrative for choices within a limited-choice society.

Brienne makes the same choices as I'm sure her Fathers wealth would buy her someone if she so desired that life, but perhaps hides behind her "lack of beauty" in order to purue the life she did really want.

There actually would be much more pressure on the likes of Lyanna and Arya to conform because of their beauty. For the men of Westerosi society, Briennes looks at a glance provide an excuse for the choice she makes.

But for an Arya or a Lyanna, their choices are a slap in the face to that society.

It would take very special men to love Lyanna, Brienne, and Arya just because they dared to contemplate having choices.

That is true to a certain extent, and yet it doesn't address the fact that in Westerosi society, a woman's beauty was also an important 'asset' for her family. As we see so clearly and tragically with the Starks and the Freys, marriages (or non-marriages!) played a key role in establishing and maintaining political alliances. A pretty/ beautiful young woman was not just appreciated by others simply because of her looks: her physical appearance could also be important in terms of securing a 'good' husband for her. 'Good' of course tended to mean 'did the marriage serve political ends', not whether the man concerned was likely to be a good husband. Of course men suffered from this too - Edmure Tully was offered up as a second-best choice to Walder Frey once Robb married Jeyne, and Daven Lannister was also expected to marry a Frey girl, despite obvious preferences elsewhere. Tywin certainly saw Cersei's beauty as an asset for the Lannister family: she may not have married Rhaegar but she still ended up as queen. Similarly with the Tyrells and Margaery, as they were negotiating with an attractive chip to bargain with.

Brienne is interesting in this context: her father 'did' arrange a second betrothal for her (Red Ronnet) but he rejected her because of her appearance. Up until then, Brienne had gone along with her father's wishes - she'd had a childhood betrothal, but the boy died, and then there was Ronnet. It was only after Red Ronnet's rejection that Brienne asserted herself in the case of her third betrothal to Ser Humfrey Wagstaff, when she said she was not going to accept chastisement from any man who couldn't defeat her in a fight. So when and how did this self-assertion come about? If Red Ronnet had accepted and married her, would Brienne still have become a warrior? Or would she have settled into the normal domestic role of a noble woman, having children and running the household - presumably also turning a blind eye to her husband's infidelities with more attractive women? Did her physical appearance partly determine her choice of lifestyle?

[Le Cygne]

All she had to do was welcome him to her father’s castle. He was eighteen, with long red hair that tumbled to his shoulders. She was twelve, tightly laced into a stiff new gown, its bodice bright with garnets. The two of them were of a height, but she could not look him in the eye, nor say the simple words her septa had taught her. Ser Ronnet. I welcome you to my lord father’s hall. It is good to look upon your face at last.

He says:

I went to Tarth and saw her. I had six years on her, yet the wench could look me in the eye.

Look me in the eye screams out at me, also that she didn't say the words.