Rereading Tyrion II (AGOT-ACOK)

[anonymouseuser]

Along the lines of prudishness and modesty I wonder about corruption as a theme in this chapter?

There's the exposure of the actual corruption of Cersei and Jaime's relationship, then Littlefinger offers to make the whole government complicit in his pandering by using his brothels (anybody else think that they were bought with siphoned off tax revenues?) as a means of spreading disinformation about Shireen, then Bronn's mistaken suggestion that Tyrion ponders of introducing Joffrey to Chataya's then the tunnel built to 'preserve' a former Hand's honour before finally the chapter is given it's other book end with Varys' confirmation about the Lannister incest.

By contrast the Summer Islanders acceptance of sexuality avoids all the deception, duplicity and corruption that is associated with the situation in Kings Landing.

It does make you wonder how these things are managed in KL. We know that Oberyn's official mistress is accepted with all the honours in Doran and it raises the issue of what happens in the rest of Westeros when someone from a noble house - like Tyrion - isn't married. We can't be sure why he isn't, the books seem to suggest this isn't an avenue Tywin has chosen to explore. Is his youngest son and (officially, given Jaime's oath to the King's Guard) heir really such a bad match despite all the Lannister gold? Or has Tywin deliberately chosen not to sanction or arrange a marriage? Pretty mean of him when at the same time he is so disapproving of his son's dissolute lifestyle. Tyrion's what? 25 - 26?Does Tywin really expect him to "hold his own" as they say?

[anonymouseuser]

I think that the grayness of Tyrion's character comes into relief somewhere between the reader perception and what Tyrion actually thinks and does, which is what I was trying to say in that post. Tyrion is so compelling, funny, sympathetic and seems completely justifiable in everything he does. This is the white. When one looks at what's actually going on-- why he got rid of Slynt, that he's ok having a potential baby-killer in his retinue, the precise emotions behind his relationship with Shae-- that's where this "white" gets murkier, at least in my opinion.

When it comes to getting rid of Slynt - short of completely revolutionising whatever passes for a legal system in Westeros - Tyrion did what he was sent to KL to do; there's no doubt about that and the story is what it is. However we cannot know how he would have reacted had he returned as hand to find the commander of the Gold Cloaks was a reasonable and honourable man just trying to do his job, because Slynt was not like that. Similarly when it comes to being "OK" with having a potential baby-killer working for him....I've been told off for not quoting so I will quote (it'll take me ages to type it out, but I'll quote):

"And why would I ever need your Allas Deem, Lord Slynt! " Tyrion thought. "I have a hundred of my own." He wanted to laugh, he wanted to weep, most of all, he wanted Shae.

How does this suggest he's OK with the realisation that Bronn would kill babies for him if he paid him well enough? It seems to me he's having a hard time accepting that if he wants to play this game of thrones these are the kind of people he will need at least in the short term and is desperate for some kind of comfort that will help him forget this fact.

[Datepalm]

Rapunzel's hair is the ladder that provides access to her tower.

If you know what I mean. :leer:

Ack, sorry, but it is a chapter just chock full of potentially sexual imagery, above beyond being a chapter just filled with sex. Half of it is set in a brothel and the other half has a bunch of politicians spinning a sex scandal.

I do wonder if theres any parallels were mean to draw between Shae/Tyrion and Jaime/Cercei - both are illicit, and both need elaborate coverup schemes, whether its a whole D&D campaigns worth of sneaking about in tunnels or inventing the tabloid.

Tyrion - isn't married. We can't be sure why he isn't, the books seem to suggest this isn't an avenue Tywin has chosen to explore. Is his youngest son and (officially, given Jaime's oath to the King's Guard) heir really such a bad match despite all the Lannister gold?

I think it's not that he's such a bad match, it's just that he's not good enough a match. He could easily find someone from a third or even second tier house (if she comes with her own issues, at least), but definitely not a pretty, first tier girl, and thats not good enough for Tywin, so he's not even putting him on the market. He might not like Tyrion, but he's not going to acknowledge to the realm - even though its utterly obvious - that he couldn't get a Sansa Stark or an Arrianne Martell or someone like that for Tyrion, and had to settle for that girl with the unibrow from that house over yonder.

I'm curious at how Varys ended up in this role in particular of being the Tyrion/Shae facilitator. This will have bearing later on when we get to Varys Did It (if he did do it), but even at this point it's kind of an odd position for Tyrion to let Varys occupy - political advice and alliance, sure, but relying on him like that for his private life?

[butterbumps!]

Mummery - Cersei has a gift for mummery and it seems so does the entire remaining Lannister family. This "mummery" theme is naturally a part of the "trappings of power."

Chataya's brothel is right down Shadowblack Lane. More dark shadows! EEk!

The wardrobe - CS Lewis reference? The wardrobe is a feminine symbol such as a doorway or birth canal. It's antithesis is a wall, something without access through it to the opposite side.

Once through the wardrobe, Tyrion must descend a ladder. Ladders represent the axis mundi that connect heaven to earth/earth to heaven. Ladders provide access to areas that would otherwise be inaccessible. Going with another fairy tale, Rapunzel's hair is the ladder that provides access to her tower. Climbing up a ladder is a metaphor for spiritual development as climbing down is suggestive of the Fall (not the season).

FInally, this goes back to the theme of mummery, Varys disguises Tyrion by wrapping him in a cloak with a hood pulled up over his head. As noted above, the cloak is "mummery" and makes Tyrion look like a child rather than a man. Cloaks disguise and can reflect a superior dignity, like the cloak of a King or cloaks can cut a person off from the outside world. Cloaks can make heros invisible.

I actually love this, and in conjunction with Lummel's remark about "corruption," I think both themes are spot on. I think this chapter is largely about distorting reality as part of furthering one's end-goals, whether in the micro or macro scale. It's Cersei's reaction, the Lannister legitimacy lie, the fact that everyone acts their part as though it's not a lie, the complete fabrication of LF's lie, when Tyrion breaks the 4th wall with LF, Tyrion's costume changes....it just keeps repeating itself. Power is a kind of distortion of reality in a way.

I also wanted to point out the curiousness of something that escapes both Tyrion and Cersei. When LF is selling the lie he constructs to the council, he says, "And the best lies contain within them nuggets of truth, enough to give a listener pause." No one reflects on the fact that the incest accusations might contain "nuggets of truth, too," which is what makes it so believable. Rereading this chapter, I saw LF's saying this as an indication he was fully aware of the "nugget of truth" in Stannis' proclamation. Though Tyrion does not react to this here, it would seem that he's caught on to the fact that LF is well aware of the incest truth, and even considers the main suspect by the end of the chapter.

How does this suggest he's OK with the realisation that Bronn would kill babies for him if he paid him well enough? It seems to me he's having a hard time accepting that if he wants to play this game of thrones these are the kind of people he will need at least in the short term and is desperate for some kind of comfort that will help him forget this fact.

I know that Tyrion is doing the job he was sent to KL's to do, and in the grand scheme of things, getting rid of Slynt appeals to both our sympathies for the Starks and sense of justice for infanticide. The baby issue was already dissected a lot upthread, but here's the issue in a nutshell. Tyrion's character cuts it both ways here. On one hand he does show what I believe is genuine outrage that a man would kill an infant. There is something that feels disturbing to Tyrion about a man who would do such a thing, for fun or by command. When Bronn answers that he would kill a baby for a price (not without question), it is precisely the sort of thing that he had just ordered the death of Deem at sea for. Deem and Slynt did it for a price as well. This is part of why he feels dyspepsia over the "justice" he's done that day. On a slightly more positive reading, I wonder if he finds himself ok with keeping a potential baby-killer in his employ because he'd be the one calling the order, and he is assuaged by knowing he would not command such an order.

PS. There's an icon right under the smiley of a quote bubble. You can cut and paste the quote brackets, or manually type the script to create quotes when needed-- [!quote!] to begin the quote box and then [/quote!] to end the quote, but minus the exclamation points I put in here.

[Ragnorak]

One other thing - Sorry interruptions. . . the Hand's tunnel is another one of those feminine symbols like the wardrobe/doorway. It's perspective is different in that tunnels are deeper through the wall or mountain or big dense tangled forest. There is, certainly in Tyrion's case a "light" at the end of this tunnel, Shae.

On lights at the end of the tunnel, Varys was holding a candle in the tunnel.

Last chapter we were told power is a mummer's trick, a shadow on the wall and we're presented with a good bit of mummery here. Joffrey is a false king yet we see an entire mummer's show plannd on pretending he is in fact legitimate. On the heels of Varys riddle I can't help but think of Aegon and wonder. Tyrion is also on Rhaenys Hill and passes under that hill through the tunnel. This is the hill with the dragon pit. Remember the Broken Anvil:

Through the cloudy panes of the narrow window, he could make out the Great Sept of Baelor crowning Visenya’s Hill

[Elba the Intoner]

I think maybe Fool or Jester/Tywin.

trion's honor is part of being a Lannister as the quote sais so "on my word as a Lannister" I don'T think that would make him like the Starks, or like Ned. With Lanister comes the pride, honor, power, ruthlessness, cunningness, and lastly Tywin.

And there is a Fool/ or Jester, it can be naive, (which tyrion sometimes is), the Fool for Love (now I am thinking about Spike), the happy go lucky, witty guy, the joker, circus dwarf, the side of him that Tywin hates more than anything.

And now someone should search for the quote about the fools in the book. How people can underestimate them etc....

Still trying to catch up on this thread which has flown by the last two days, but just wanted to answer this quickly before I go back. Silverin, that quote is from Dontos from one of the times when he meets with Sansa in the Godswood. She says something about how Joff and Cersei think she is stupid and Dontos says let them think that. She is safer that way because everyone at court is spying on each other but no one gives a second thought about the fool or bothers to spy on him. He also says how he overhears so much more as a fool than he ever did as a knight.

Also, this is a technique Shakespeare was well known for - that the fool in his plays were often the most insightful and smartest person around. The Fool from King Lear is a great example.

[Lummel]

I think maybe Fool or Jester/Tywin.

...

And there is a Fool/ or Jester, it can be naive, (which tyrion sometimes is), the Fool for Love (now I am thinking about Spike), the happy go lucky, witty guy, the joker, circus dwarf, the side of him that Tywin hates more than anything.

And now someone should search for the quote about the fools in the book. How people can underestimate them etc....

...

I thought of Fool/Tywin because these are pointed out in the text about him. Characters say that he is like tywin, his son, and then in ADwD he indeed is a professional fool, tywin disaproves of his jokes etc...

...

...Silverin, that quote is from Dontos from one of the times when he meets with Sansa in the Godswood. She says something about how Joff and Cersei think she is stupid and Dontos says let them think that. She is safer that way because everyone at court is spying on each other but no one gives a second thought about the fool or bothers to spy on him. He also says how he overhears so much more as a fool than he ever did as a knight.

Also, this is a technique Shakespeare was well known for - that the fool in his plays were often the most insightful and smartest person around. The Fool from King Lear is a great example.

"Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seems to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He takes the wise in their own craftiness." 1 Corinthians 3:18-19

There's a tradition of fools being insightful characters. I think in ASOIAF this is best represented by Patchface a fool who seems to speak literal truths, with Tyrion the folly and the joking seems to be to link into his friendly manner of dealing with people. Just looking at the way he talks to Ser Mandon Moore and Lord Janos Slynt in the previous two chapters, a light jocular tone seems to be effective in disarming people so that they don't consider him a threat.

Although by implication then that suggests that without that fooling around he would normally be perceived as a sinister figure.

Mummery - Cersei has a gift for mummery and it seems so does the entire remaining Lannister family. This "mummery" theme is naturally a part of the "trappings of power."

Chataya's brothel is right down Shadowblack Lane. More dark shadows! EEk!

The wardrobe - CS Lewis reference? The wardrobe is a feminine symbol such as a doorway or birth canal. It's antithesis is a wall, something without access through it to the opposite side.

Once through the wardrobe, Tyrion must descend a ladder. Ladders represent the axis mundi that connect heaven to earth/earth to heaven. Ladders provide access to areas that would otherwise be inaccessible. Going with another fairy tale, Rapunzel's hair is the ladder that provides access to her tower. Climbing up a ladder is a metaphor for spiritual development as climbing down is suggestive of the Fall (not the season).

FInally, this goes back to the theme of mummery, Varys disguises Tyrion by wrapping him in a cloak with a hood pulled up over his head. As noted above, the cloak is "mummery" and makes Tyrion look like a child rather than a man. Cloaks disguise and can reflect a superior dignity, like the cloak of a King or cloaks can cut a person off from the outside world. Cloaks can make heros invisible.

So sex to gestation to birth with Varys as midwife. He was a child when he married Tysha and in the guise of a child he visits Shae.

In the future Varys will be Tyrion's midwife a second time iirc.

I do wonder if theres any parallels were mean to draw between Shae/Tyrion and Jaime/Cercei - both are illicit, and both need elaborate coverup schemes, whether its a whole D&D campaigns worth of sneaking about in tunnels or inventing the tabloid.

...

I'm curious at how Varys ended up in this role in particular of being the Tyrion/Shae facilitator. This will have bearing later on when we get to Varys Did It (if he did do it), but even at this point it's kind of an odd position for Tyrion to let Varys occupy - political advice and alliance, sure, but relying on him like that for his private life?

Well we begin with the fruits of one illicit relationship and end with the 'birth' of another one. As children result from sex so scandal will result from the decit.

"Oh what tangled webs we weave

when first we practise to deceive"

Yes Varys very quickly becomes close to Tyrion. Clearly they are having meetings and discussions between chapters (without us!) while we don't get the same sense from TYrion's interactions with other council members.

On lights at the end of the tunnel, Varys was holding a candle in the tunnel.

Last chapter we were told power is a mummer's trick, a shadow on the wall and we're presented with a good bit of mummery here. Joffrey is a false king yet we see an entire mummer's show plannd on pretending he is in fact legitimate. On the heels of Varys riddle I can't help but think of Aegon and wonder. Tyrion is also on Rhaenys Hill and passes under that hill through the tunnel. This is the hill with the dragon pit. Remember the Broken Anvil:

Yes lots of mummery, lots of shadows on walls. The clothes (and the armour) designed to define the man. It's very much the Emperor's New Clothes. Joffrey's rule is dependant on everybody pretending that Joffrey is legitimate even while we have Littlefinger, Cersei, Varys and Tyrion all clearly in the know by the end of this chapter. In fact we later learn that even Pycelle knows so we have an entire small council pretending that Stannis is lying when they all know the truth - now isn't that a definition of foolishness?

Similarly as Datepalm was saying about Tyrion's arrival at the brothel, they play at anominity because of course Tyrion in his court clothes visiting one of the most exclusive brothels in King's Landing could so easily be that other powerful and influencial dwarf.

[butterbumps!]

I meant to respond to this earlier, but got distracted. I had a really different interpretation of what was going on with the offer of armor.

It's also interesting that we go from the trappings of a great lord, which Tyrion appreciates, even revels in, to the suit of armour that is presumably supposed to be just as fine and just as great a sign of power. However Tyrion is having none of it. As he says:

"Master armourer, I plan to fight the rest of my battles from this chair". Of course things don't quite work out that way for him, but that's another story. Clearly Tyrion is letting people know that he won't be bought and can't be flattered. For someone who is frequently guilty of illuding himself here, at least for the moment, he seems very much in control and focused.

I don't think this was about flattery. I think that Salloreon was making fun of Tyrion here. I think this was supposed to be a version of deadpan humor, where the smith came forward as though it was a form of flattery, but in reality it was a joke at Tyrion's expense where the demon horns were the punchline (the smallfolk call him a "demon monkey"). I think this is reinforced by the fact that some of the other men started snickering.

I think that the idea of "being bought" is beside the point. It wasn't "genuine" flattery, and I don't think this scene really tells us whether Tyrion would be swayed by flattery one way or another. Instead, I think that this scene reinforces Tyrion's struggle with being taken seriously. He can be Tywin's proxy, speak with the King's voice, wear the most lavish attire, and present himself as a noble scion, but his authority will always be undermined by his being a dwarf. Salloreon's jest serves as an example that whatever power Tyrion believes he has, it's ephemeral.

He walked into the audience feeling pretty good about himself, and got off to a good start. Salloreon's jests deflated him, stripping his power (it goes back to the notion that the best way to defuse a threat is to laugh at it). Tyrion's change of tack from trying to win obedience with mutual respect to obedience under threat of punishment is both a practical and personal response to the demon horns. It was imperative that he won their obedience for the plan to work, but I think this is a case where Tyrion's anger also got the best of him here. He hates being made mock of, especially by those beneath him (for reference consider his anger towards Sweet Robin). I think it was very galling for him, and the threat of punishment has as much to do with personal insult as it does pragmatism. Potentially he might have won all of the men over by rising above the jest and continuing the way he'd started.

[Lummel]

Interesting. I tended to read the Salloreon offer as an attempt to arselick and the sniggering as much at his bare faced cheek in trying to wiggle out of the Hand's commission. Wouldn't it be a bit dangerous to try and brazenly insult the Hand, and a Lannister Hand at that, in front of witnesses?

The Monkey Demon nickname for Tyrion doesn't get mentioned to Tyrion for a couple of chapters yet, but I suppose it could be circulating among the lower orders already. No doubt the smiths are all gossiping and swapping the latest jokes when they take their breaks.

But either way I agree it's a tricky moment for Tyrion both because of his dignity - he doesn't want people sniggering at him, or to suspect that they are - and because of his authority - he needs them to obey and do what he wants.

Those threats to dignity and authority contrast nicely with the 'upsides' of his day, Bronn speaking like a courtier and his pleasure at being announced as the Hand. And all of this is about the intangible nature of power. There is no real power here. Tyrion is relying on Petyr Baelish to magic up the money to buy the materials the men need and to pay them for their work.

[A wilding]

I think it's not that [Tyrion] is such a bad match, it's just that he's not good enough a match. He could easily find someone from a third or even second tier house (if she comes with her own issues, at least), but definitely not a pretty, first tier girl, and thats not good enough for Tywin, so he's not even putting him on the market. He might not like Tyrion, but he's not going to acknowledge to the realm - even though its utterly obvious - that he couldn't get a Sansa Stark or an Arrianne Martell or someone like that for Tyrion, and had to settle for that girl with the unibrow from that house over yonder.

If we believe Tywin, he was unable even to marry him even to the daughter of the youngest son of a 2nd tier lord, even though that daughter was dishonoured and the only other husband she could get was a guard captain. I suppose Tywin might have unconsciously sabotaged the match by, for example, emphasizing that Tyrion would never get the Rock though ...

[Natalie_S]

It does make you wonder how these things are managed in KL. We know that Oberyn's official mistress is accepted with all the honours in Doran and it raises the issue of what happens in the rest of Westeros when someone from a noble house - like Tyrion - isn't married. We can't be sure why he isn't, the books seem to suggest this isn't an avenue Tywin has chosen to explore. Is his youngest son and (officially, given Jaime's oath to the King's Guard) heir really such a bad match despite all the Lannister gold? Or has Tywin deliberately chosen not to sanction or arrange a marriage? Pretty mean of him when at the same time he is so disapproving of his son's dissolute lifestyle. Tyrion's what? 25 - 26?Does Tywin really expect him to "hold his own" as they say?

I think that Tywin never thought of finding a wife for Tyrion just for the sake of having him married because the time was right or because he might want to raise a family.

I think Tywin has always seen his kids as part of his assets, and so as pawns that could be moved and placed according to what he needed.

Perhaps there would have been minor houses that would have happily accepted a Lannister (albeit a dwarf) as a groom, but I don't think Tywin ever even considered an alliance that was no use to House Lannister.

From Tywin's perspective I think that what Tyrion did with his sex life wasn't particularly important, as long as it didn't cause problems (as in he didn't grow attached to his mistress to the point that it could make his absolute loyalty to House Lannister shaky).

Also, just a short comment since I remember making a note on it, and maybe it's just be being a horrible old prude, but isn't Tyrion acting a bit like a horn dog in this chapter, getting a hard-on as soon as he sees a girl inside Chataya's? It just struck me as a bit odd when he knows he is on his way to Shae that he gets all hot and bothered by random girls who by all accounts seem to at least be dressed. He's not a raging hormonal teenager either, but in his mid 20s. Or maybe I am just a terribly old fashioned prude. :crying:

Yes you are :P

The Monkey Demon nickname for Tyrion doesn't get mentioned to Tyrion for a couple of chapters yet, but I suppose it could be circulating among the lower orders already. No doubt the smiths are all gossiping and swapping the latest jokes when they take their breaks.

Even if we don't learn about the nickname until later, we have a glimpse of the people's discomtent even in this chapter:

He accepted a hand up into the litter. He had done all he could to feed the hungry city—he’d set several hundred carpenters to building fishing boats in place of catapults, opened the kingswood to any hunter who dared to cross the river, even sent gold cloaks foraging to the west and south—yet he still saw accusing eyes everywhere he rode. The litter’s curtains shielded him from that, and besides gave him leisure to think.

Despite his efforts to improve the Kingslanders' lifestyle, he can see that he's not loved in the city.

He watched the passersby watching him, and played a little game with himself, trying to sort the informers from the rest. The ones who look the most suspicious are likely innocent , he decided. It’s the ones who look innocent I need to beware.

Later, he will often think about how innocent Shae looks. Foreshadowing?

“I would respectfully suggest the dark-skinned girl,” said Chataya.

“She’s young.”

“She has sixteen years, my lord.”

A good age for Joffrey.

Apparently the fact that Alayaya is very young is somewhat a turn off for Tyrion, as he would have chosen the other girl (Dacey, I think?).

And we have another memory of Tysha, and another intrusion of Tyrion's "conscience":

Tyrion remembered how shy she’d seemed as he drew her dress up over her head the first time. Long dark hair and blue eyes you could drown in, and he had. So long ago . . . What a wretched fool you are, dwarf.

He always calls himself "dwarf" when he wants to stop daydreaming.

Tyrion’s cock pressed against the lacings of his breeches. This could be humiliating , he thought as he followed Alayaya up another stair to the turret room.

It's interesting that he thinks that the fact that he's aroused in Alayaya's presence is "humiliating"... I mean, that's sort of her job?

It's like being embarassed to cough in front of a doctor.

But apparently for Tyrion it's important to appear courteous and well-mannered with her (he also kisses her hand before leaving).

I don't remember who wrote that, since it's very likely that the tunnel inside the brothel was build for Tywin, is quite ironic that one of them used to appear monogamous when in fact had probably a number of lovers, while the other used it to pretend exactly the opposite.

[anonymouseuser]

Interesting. I tended to read the Salloreon offer as an attempt to arselick and the sniggering as much at his bare faced cheek in trying to wiggle out of the Hand's commission. Wouldn't it be a bit dangerous to try and brazenly insult the Hand, and a Lannister Hand at that, in front of witnesses?

The Monkey Demon nickname for Tyrion doesn't get mentioned to Tyrion for a couple of chapters yet, but I suppose it could be circulating among the lower orders already. No doubt the smiths are all gossiping and swapping the latest jokes when they take their breaks.

I agree more with this interpretation. The description GRRM gives of the man the smiths' chose to speak for them, Ironbelly is so completely at odds with the master armourer's that it's clear Salloreon is not very popular with his peers. Either they snigger at him because they realise he's just made a potentially dangerous faux pas or their laughter alerts him that the demon helm manoeuvre has backfired. Remember the text says that he continues "heedlessly" when he hears them and soon get slapped down by Tyrion. I get the impression that Tyrion has actually done himself some good with the other smiths with his reaction to the "gift" and his swift, no nonsense way of dealing with Salloreon.

[Lummel]

If we believe Tywin, he was unable even to marry him even to the daughter of the youngest son of a 2nd tier lord, even though that daughter was dishonoured and the only other husband she could get was a guard captain. I suppose Tywin might have unconsciously sabotaged the match by, for example, emphasizing that Tyrion would never get the Rock though ...

Well that was in the context of Tywin and Kevan doing their double act to get Tyrion to marry Sansa and wanting to close off other possibilities -'it's either Sansa or Lollys'.

I struggle to imagine that Tyrion's reputation is so bad that the potential heir to Casterly Rock can't get a wife. Walder Frey had plenty of daughters :leaving:

[butterbumps!]

Interesting. I tended to read the Salloreon offer as an attempt to arselick and the sniggering as much at his bare faced cheek in trying to wiggle out of the Hand's commission. Wouldn't it be a bit dangerous to try and brazenly insult the Hand, and a Lannister Hand at that, in front of witnesses?

The Monkey Demon nickname for Tyrion doesn't get mentioned to Tyrion for a couple of chapters yet, but I suppose it could be circulating among the lower orders already. No doubt the smiths are all gossiping and swapping the latest jokes when they take their breaks.

But either way I agree it's a tricky moment for Tyrion both because of his dignity - he doesn't want people sniggering at him, or to suspect that they are - and because of his authority - he needs them to obey and do what he wants.

Those threats to dignity and authority contrast nicely with the 'upsides' of his day, Bronn speaking like a courtier and his pleasure at being announced as the Hand. And all of this is about the intangible nature of power. There is no real power here. Tyrion is relying on Petyr Baelish to magic up the money to buy the materials the men need and to pay them for their work.

If the gratuitous description about the demon head complete with horns was not intended to be a joke at Tyrion's expense, then Salloreon may be thicker than Bowen and Slynt combined. Which is, perhaps, possible. I thought it was probably an introduction to the "demon monkey" monicker we see in a few chapters because the offer of a "demon's head (with horns!)" doesn't make too much sense out of that context. I mean, Tyrion is dressed in his Lannister best and clearly operating on behalf of his family. I'd think more "sincere" flattery would involve offering him a Lion's head helm. I think Tyrion senses it's a joke, but the full magnitude of the implication here comes into relief only after we see that the smallfolk actually are calling him the demon monkey (with horns!)

[Natalie_S]

If the gratuitous description about the demon head complete with horns was not intended to be a joke at Tyrion's expense, then Salloreon may be thicker than Bowen and Slynt combined. Which is, perhaps, possible. I thought it was probably an introduction to the "demon monkey" monicker we see in a few chapters because the offer of a "demon's head (with horns!)" doesn't make too much sense out of that context. I mean, Tyrion is dressed in his Lannister best and clearly operating on behalf of his family. I'd think more "sincere" flattery would involve offering him a Lion's head helm. I think Tyrion senses it's a joke, but the full magnitude of the implication here comes into relief only after we see that the smallfolk actually are calling him the demon monkey (with horns!)

By the way the fact that Tyrion has a monstruous demon-like appearance was a legend that was well-known much sooner than his arrival in KL as Hand.

Oberyin in ASOS says that "And well you might, since you were said to have one, a stiff curly tail like a swine's. Your head was monstrous huge, we heard, half again the size of your body, and you had been born with thick black hair and a beard besides, an evil eye, and lion's claws. Your teeth were so long you could not close your mouth, and between your legs were a girl's privates as well as a boy's.""

[Axrendale]

"Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seems to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He takes the wise in their own craftiness." 1 Corinthians 3:18-19

There's a tradition of fools being insightful characters. I think in ASOIAF this is best represented by Patchface a fool who seems to speak literal truths, with Tyrion the folly and the joking seems to be to link into his friendly manner of dealing with people. Just looking at the way he talks to Ser Mandon Moore and Lord Janos Slynt in the previous two chapters, a light jocular tone seems to be effective in disarming people so that they don't consider him a threat.

Although by implication then that suggests that without that fooling around he would normally be perceived as a sinister figure.

"The greatest fools are ofttimes more clever than those who laugh at them." - Tywin Lannister

[Axrendale]

With Dany we called her dual nature Mother/Dragon. We've pointed to Stark/Lannister, Love/Fear, Protector/Victimizer. None of these seem to fit him as well as Dany's Mother/Dragon. What is Tyrion's dual nature?

The Imp and the Giant of Lannister. This is not just tongue in cheek. "The Imp" seems to capture a number of the qualities in Tyrion that people find abhorrent, and the negative/mocking representations of him that he finds to be so hurtful - it is significant, I think, that he hates this nickname even more than "dwarf". By contrast, "the Giant" encompasses the outstanding qualities within Tyrion's character and nature that can impress and inspire respect in those who are capable of percieving them (such as Maester Aemon, who was the first person to call Tyrion a "giant").

[anonymouseuser]

The Imp and the Giant of Lannister. This is not just tongue in cheek. "The Imp" seems to capture a number of the qualities in Tyrion that people find abhorrent, and the negative/mocking representations of him that he finds to be so hurtful - it is significant, I think, that he hates this nickname even more than "dwarf". By contrast, "the Giant" encompasses the outstanding qualities within Tyrion's character and nature that can impress and inspire respect in those who are capable of percieving them (such as Maester Aemon, who was the first person to call Tyrion a "giant").

Does he really hate being called "Imp". I can't make up my mind. Sometimes he seems to revel in it and at other times (and from people he feels are being overly familiar or dismissive of him) it pisses him off. Meanwhile the image of "giant" is something that continues to be associated with him by different people in different situations. When Maester Aemon called him "giant" he wasn't exactly paying him a compliment IIRC. Then there's Shae's pillow talk and the recurring image of giant shadows that accompany him. Like I said I can't make up my mind - it's an interesting point though.

Another thing I think the chapter emphasised was the way Tyrion relates to the smallfolk. He has no problems with the down to earth smith Ironbelly while he immediately locks horns :P with Salloreon. He enjoys bantering with Bronn and is perfectly happy to be talked to as an equal and then of course there is his efforts to make sure the ordinary KLers get fed. The only member of the small council who seems to make this a priority.

[Axrendale]

When Maester Aemon called him "giant" he wasn't exactly paying him a compliment IIRC.

I actually did take this to be a compliment. What was your interpretation of it?

[anonymouseuser]

I actually did take this to be a compliment. What was your interpretation of it?

I have a confession to make. This happened when Tyrion visited the wall in GoT and that's the only book I haven't read, because I'd already seen the TV show - something I aim to correct asap. But I remember thinking, and I'm sure I read another poster commenting on the fact that Maester Aemon, who is always such a kind, wise old thing, didn't seem to be much of a Tyrion fan during that conversation. But as I said I can't look it up and check. Maybe someone else can help me out?