Comic Books, part 3

[Winterfell is Burning]

Didn't he scream at GM during a DC panel ("YOU OWE ME!")? Or was that just rumor?

I heard about that as well many times, it's probably true.

I think back then DC was more desperate than hardball. They needed somebody to the point where they gave him his own continuity for Superman. Plus, going exclusive is great cause, hey free dental!

Judging by Morrison's interviews from back then he felt that the tide was changing and that once Marvel was no longer in danger of bankruptcy they were getting more conservative and less willing to take chances. Jemas wanted Marvel Boy 2 to be more down-to-earth and realistic. At the same time DC was open to new ideas. Basically he said the same thing he said when he was leaving DC for Marvel few years before. DC wasn't gonna let him Waid, Millar & Peyer to revamp Superman (or give him any other gig at all) while Marvel was all "Sure, X-Men can wear leather jackets".

The same thing is probably happening now, except Image entered the playing field.

Yes, when Jemas and Quesada took over, Marvel was in a very poor state creatively, with the exception of Busiek's Avengers, as well as financially, so they were basically giving free reign to the writers that sold well, and had no major events. With sales getting better, the Ultimate line making success, and other critically and comercially acclaimed stuff like Bendis' Daredevil, JMS Spider-Man and Waid's FF, they wanted to be more conservative.

House of M is a good example: it was basically supposed to be just a New Avengers and AXM story according to Bendis, but turned into a crossover designed to wipe out mutantkind due to Marvel's (and Joe Q's) insistence.

And after the success of Civil War, they basically decided to shift their focus to annual (and sometimes even more than that) crossovers, with at least half the stories either being leads to the crossover, tie-ins, or dealing with the aftermath over and over again.

[Nephrite]

Didn't he scream at GM during a DC panel ("YOU OWE ME!")? Or was that just rumor?

I think Rich Johnston reported that. And that Morrison responded with a whole bunch of F-bombs.

True or not, comicbook industry seems like it's big enough to be an industry, but small enough that perceived slights are good enough reason for blacklisting and retconning stories like that is gonna make Grant Morrison cry or something.

Like, Marvel is a company in the business of making money, yet these days it seems like they are waging a war against a fictional character.

A few years back Jeph Loeb was DC's golden boy, but now he's the enemy.Just beacuse he changed his workplace. Tucker Stone did an interview with Mark Waid and then he had to listen from DC guys how Kingdom Come/Flash/anything-by-Waid sucks and how he should know the real reasons why Waid isn't at DC anymore.

These are petty, petty people. They treat each other like crap and they ain't much better to fans.

[red snow]

To be fair comicbook fans tend to be pretty petty too so it's probably no coincidence that the creative folk behave the same way. They probably reinforce each other.

To be honest I would see Loeb as the enemy based on his creative output the last 5 years or so. I wouldn't be surprised if they sent him deep undercover to Marvel (possibly the other way around as he worked his "magic" on DC shortly after that wolverine story for Marvel).

Mark Waid has problems with everybody and while I think he's a great talent there must be an element of himself that's to blame somewhere (unless it's a case of him always getting pissed at editorial screwing him). Waid will most likely leave Marvel in a huff within 2 years, more likely 12 month - probably with a load of Image projects in the pipeline,

It's sad to see how Marvel went from that brief golden era under Jemas and Quesada only for the compamy to go back to what got in the same mess originally - massive crossovers, multiple covers, writers by the numbers and no creative vision, just continuous/superfluous "Every thing changes". The way things are going I'd be surprised if there are any known names working at Marvel in the near future. Bendis seems untouchable though - the rest I think it's only for as long as they play ball. Fingers crossed Marvel Now! sticks to its claims of the creative teams announced for these books are around for at least 18 issues, then I can swallow some humble pie. Although I realised that 18 issues is only a year for a lot of their books NOW! Maybe Marvel NOWER! for 2014?

[Nephrite]

To be fair comicbook fans tend to be pretty petty too so it's probably no coincidence that the creative folk behave the same way. They probably reinforce each other.

Well, if I was in their shoes and had to answer questions about Stephanie fuckin' Brown for the millionth time I'd probably tell them to fuck off. But, people bring their portfolio to Cebulski and he tells them to bring him a burger is another thing.

To be honest I would see Loeb as the enemy based on his creative output the last 5 years or so. I wouldn't be surprised if they sent him deep undercover to Marvel (possibly the other way around as he worked his "magic" on DC shortly after that wolverine story for Marvel).

His quality did drop after his son passed away, true. Not that he was brilliant before. For All Season and Long Halloween fooled a lot of people. But, DC probably doesn't like him cause he went to work for Marvel. There's that whole traitor mentality among companies.

They are like children. Bendis kills a Lois Lane stand-in and dumps her in a dumpster and shit like that. And there was that whole "rip DC covers for a Deadpool variant" low point.

Grown-up people. I was kind of hoping that now that WB/Disney is more involved in the day-to-day business at DC/Marvel they'd cut that outthe only result is that Vertigo is now in deep shit.

Mark Waid has problems with everybody and while I think he's a great talent there must be an element of himself that's to blame somewhere (unless it's a case of him always getting pissed at editorial screwing him). Waid will most likely leave Marvel in a huff within 2 years, more likely 12 month - probably with a load of Image projects in the pipeline,

Yeah, but no matter what, but for these people his Flash run now retroactively sucks. And I actually admire that Waid tells it how it is. Everybody else seems all fake smiles and a knife behind their back. His beef seems with people like DiDio, Harras (although he says they made up) and that CrossGen guy. Sure, he trolls John Byrne from time to time, but I'm pretty sure science says that is a service to humanity.

It's sad to see how Marvel went from that brief golden era under Jemas and Quesada only for the compamy to go back to what got in the same mess originally - massive crossovers, multiple covers, writers by the numbers and no creative vision, just continuous/superfluous "Every thing changes". The way things are going I'd be surprised if there are any known names working at Marvel in the near future. Bendis seems untouchable though - the rest I think it's only for as long as they play ball. Fingers crossed Marvel Now! sticks to its claims of the creative teams announced for these books are around for at least 18 issues, then I can swallow some humble pie. Although I realised that 18 issues is only a year for a lot of their books NOW! Maybe Marvel NOWER! for 2014?

Names no longer matter to them. People will buy Uncanny Avengers one way or the other.

[Sci-2]

True or not, comicbook industry seems like it's big enough to be an industry, but small enough that perceived slights are good enough reason for blacklisting and retconning stories like that is gonna make Grant Morrison cry or something.

I can't help but laugh at GM and Alan Moore - you have these two guys who are telling the rest of us to transcend our earthly consciousness but being some of the pettiest motherfuckers around.

I'm gonna throw Moorcock in there as well. I still don't get the whole GM plagarized me thing. He was letting people use Jerry Cornelius like the character was in the public domain, and GM was some kid using the same character in his stories while working under someone who basically had a JC ripoff Moorcock loved...

[Nephrite]

Moorcock and Moore seem to love circlejerking each other on how great they are.

[Sci-2]

Moorcock and Moore seem to love circlejerking each other on how great they are.

To be fair, I love a lot of what both of them have written. Though I do agree it all gets a little silly. The way Moorcock talks about it ("I've read GM twice - once when I wrote it, and then when he wrote it.") I though GM had lifted huge chunks from Moorcock's works over the years but it's like one relatively minor storyline in Invisibles AFAIK.

[Little Valkyrie]

A few years back Jeph Loeb was DC's golden boy, but now he's the enemy.Just beacuse he changed his workplace. Tucker Stone did an interview with Mark Waid and then he had to listen from DC guys how Kingdom Come/Flash/anything-by-Waid sucks and how he should know the real reasons why Waid isn't at DC anymore.

These are petty, petty people. They treat each other like crap and they ain't much better to fans.

Jeph Loeb is the enemy of quality writing, these days. :(

In unrelated news, I've been backreading some Morrison JLA, and the style of technobabble he gets into is wearing really thin. I mean, I love space opera and capes and tights--I have no problem with technobabble. But when it's that central, it needs to be at minimum more elegant, or at least have some metaphorical Ariadne's thread I can follow.

[Sci-2]

Heh, there was one line he had about Flash, something about the Speed Force, that was pretty hilarious.

[red snow]

I agree Waid tends to tell it as it is and the quality of his work is why I give him the benefit of the doubt. Plus the guy clearly loves the marvel/DC classic heroes as he'd never keep returning to them so often. The crossgen guy definitely had it coming as he ripped a lot of creators off.

I'm not too surprised that Marvel still behaves like a petulant child as it's supposed to be hands off. Plus, Hollywood can be even more petty with their grudges (and with far more money at stake).

[Fenryng]

I don't suppose anyone here happens to read/have any opinions on Invincible, the other series done by the writer of the Walking Dead?

[Winterfell is Burning]

I don't suppose anyone here happens to read/have any opinions on Invincible, the other series done by the writer of the Walking Dead?

There's a lot of people that like it, but I'm not one of them. I haven't liked anything by Kirkman but the Walking Dead- his Ultimate X-men run was easily the worst run of the Ultimate Universe (Loeb's stuff excepted), and so bad I took years to read TWD because I couldn't convince myself to pick a book by him.

[instantdeath999]

I don't suppose anyone here happens to read/have any opinions on Invincible, the other series done by the writer of the Walking Dead?

I have not read it, but I have a friend who loves it, and considers it a better work than The Walking Dead. I trust his opinion for the most part, so take that as you will.

So, I'm fairly new to comics, even more new than I am to fantasy novels. I've been building up a collection over the past few months, grabbing some of the "must haves": Watchmen, V for Vendetta, first few volumes of Sandman, some essential Batman graphic novels (DKR, Year One, Killing Joke, Man Who Laughs, Arkham Asylum, Long Halloween, Hush), a few Superman graphic novels (All Star, All Seasons, Red Son, Whatever Happened to the Man of Tommorow?). It should be noted that I haven't read even half of these yet, so maybe I shouldn't worry about buying more quite yet, but hey, we all have our OCD tendencies. (So far, my collection has a distinct lack of Marvel. Part of that is because I take advantage of their handy subscription service, and am using that to read a ton of Silver age comics via the Marvel reading order.

However, what about graphic novels? From some of the DC graphic novels I've read, I've found that I can really enjoy them without knowing too much about the decades upon decades of history that go with the character. I had put off going into comics for so many years because I thought it would be like reading a manga series, yet multiplied by hundreds of issues: you have to read from issue one to understand it. I still like to get the "full picture", and I like concise continuity, but I find it's pretty easy to pick up a graphic novel and enjoy it on its own.

So, any recommendations for a comic newb? For Marvel, I'm thinking of taking a look into Ultimate Spider-man, and grabbing the Walt Simonson Thor omnibus (heard nothing but good things about it). I'm also probably gonna take a look at Grant Morrison's JLA, and buy some non-superhero stuff, like Fables and Y The Last Man.

I can't help but laugh at GM and Alan Moore - you have these two guys who are telling the rest of us to transcend our earthly consciousness but being some of the pettiest motherfuckers around.

Not asking to be petty or annoying or anything, but because I'm genuinely curious (don't know much about the man beyond his work), but how is Alan Moore petty? I know he's pretty dismissive of adaptations of his work, and also very disapproving of Before Watchmen (which I have not yet read), though that's about the extent of my knowledge.

[Fiddler's Green]

I don't suppose anyone here happens to read/have any opinions on Invincible, the other series done by the writer of the Walking Dead?

I've read up to around issue #85 (I read in trades) and, while I'm not sure he has a definitive endpoint in mind, it's worth a read and one of the best superhero comics in the last decade.

[haLobEnder]

I don't suppose anyone here happens to read/have any opinions on Invincible, the other series done by the writer of the Walking Dead?

I bought the first five deluxe editions of the series in the days when I cared more about being a completest than my actual enjoyment of particular books, but they were among the first books I got rid of when I decided I needed to trim the fat from my collection somewhat.

The story itself isn't bad --aside from Kirkman's typically clunky dialogue that is-- and Ryan Ottley's art is phenomenal, the problem is, at the end of the day it's just a superhero title. If that's your thing, I'd say give it a shot as it actually manages to do some things a great deal better than Superman, Spiderman or titles of that vein from which it's drawing inspiration. The problem for me is that after 50 plus issues of that, I was bored. There is absolutely no subtext to the series, and like The Walking Dead the plot meanders any which way Kirkman wants it to go instead of it leading to some big finally.

So, any recommendations for a comic newb? For Marvel, I'm thinking of taking a look into Ultimate Spider-man, and grabbing the Walt Simonson Thor omnibus (heard nothing but good things about it). I'm also probably gonna take a look at Grant Morrison's JLA, and buy some non-superhero stuff, like Fables and Y The Last Man.

For Marvel stuff, be sure to check out Runaways. You can also stock up on some of the 'classic' stuff on the cheap by checking out some of the Essential titles Marvels puts out every once and awhile. Other than that, it really depends a great deal on where your tastes lay. The non-superhero stuff is more my forte. Definitely check out Sandman, then if you like it, follow up with Mike Carey's Lucifer series.

Not asking to be petty or annoying or anything, but because I'm genuinely curious (don't know much about the man beyond his work), but how is Alan Moore petty? I know he's pretty dismissive of adaptations of his work, and also very disapproving of Before Watchmen (which I have not yet read), though that's about the extent of my knowledge.

I don't know if I'd call Moore petty, more just full of himself if you ask me. I think he gets a kick out of being difficult for difficulty's sake. That said, if anyone in comics has earned it, it's him.

[Lady Octarina]

So, any recommendations for a comic newb? For Marvel, I'm thinking of taking a look into Ultimate Spider-man, and grabbing the Walt Simonson Thor omnibus (heard nothing but good things about it). I'm also probably gonna take a look at Grant Morrison's JLA, and buy some non-superhero stuff, like Fables and Y The Last Man.

Well, I'm mostly a Marvel fan, so I'll recommend the graphic novels I read when I started reading comics again a few years ago:

- Marvels (by Kurt Busiek and Alex Ross)

- Marvel 1602 (by Neil Gaiman and Andy Kubert)

- Loki (by Rob Rodi and Esad Ribic)

- Magneto: Testament (by Greg Pak and Carmine Di Giandomenico)

- Sub-Mariner: The Depths (by Peter Milligan and Esad Ribic)

- Captain Britain (Alan Moore's run)

Except for Captain Britain, all of those are self-contained stories, you don't need to know that much about the Marvel Universe to enjoy them. And they're all brilliant. :bowdown:

[red snow]

I read the first couple and it had a fun vibe reminiscent of Spider-man and they had an interesting spin with regards to his father. Not entirely sure why I gave up on it but I guess it just wasn't shaking things up that much. The fact it has been going for so long but doesn't generate much hest has me suspecting it's just very solid.

The problem with Marvel is that it's very hard to find trades that aren't tied into something else. I'd say the Bendis Daredevil run is self-contained over several volumes as is Brubaker's Captain america (I haven't read it though). If there are uncanny x-force trades out there I'd give that a try as the most recent gateway trade. JMS' Spider-man was initially very good and I've heard Dan Slott's spider-manhas been good so they are worth a look if you like the character. Hickman's Fantastic four run is supposed to be very good and he's just wrapping his run up so that's a good set of trades to look into, I wouldn't reccomend any of the Avengers or X-men trades tbh.

If you're willing to try monthlies Marvel is just rolling out it's big rebranding/incentive with the claim that all the issue 1s coming out are genuine "new reader accessible" and won't have crossovers for the first few months.

Is this a genuine panel/script for AVX consequences? It made me laugh.

[Lady Octarina]

Is this a genuine panel/script for AVX consequences? It made me laugh.

lol

Yeah, Consequences #2, I think. I do hope one such kid appears at Wolverine's school wearing that shirt someday soon, one of the new mutants - though I still think the Magneto version will always be much more effective, a classic the moment it was created, whenever that was.

[red snow]

lol

Yeah, Consequences #2, I think. I do hope one such kid appears at Wolverine's school wearing that shirt someday soon, one of the new mutants - though I still think the Magneto version will always be much more effective, a classic the moment it was created, whenever that was.

I must have missed/forgotten the Magneto one. Sounds like Kid Omega would start supporting Cyclops now that it's cool to not like him.

EDIT: Seems like my subconscious was pointing me in the right direction

[instantdeath999]

I bought the first five deluxe editions of the series in the days when I cared more about being a completest than my actual enjoyment of particular books, but they were among the first books I got rid of when I decided I needed to trim the fat from my collection somewhat.

The story itself isn't bad --aside from Kirkman's typically clunky dialogue that is-- and Ryan Ottley's art is phenomenal, the problem is, at the end of the day it's just a superhero title. If that's your thing, I'd say give it a shot as it actually manages to do some things a great deal better than Superman, Spiderman or titles of that vein from which it's drawing inspiration. The problem for me is that after 50 plus issues of that, I was bored. There is absolutely no subtext to the series, and like The Walking Dead the plot meanders any which way Kirkman wants it to go instead of it leading to some big finally.

For Marvel stuff, be sure to check out Runaways. You can also stock up on some of the 'classic' stuff on the cheap by checking out some of the Essential titles Marvels puts out every once and awhile. Other than that, it really depends a great deal on where your tastes lay. The non-superhero stuff is more my forte. Definitely check out Sandman, then if you like it, follow up with Mike Carey's Lucifer series.

I don't know if I'd call Moore petty, more just full of himself if you ask me. I think he gets a kick out of being difficult for difficulty's sake. That said, if anyone in comics has earned it, it's him.

Oh yeah, I've heard good things about Runaways. I've looked a bit into that series and a Vertigo series called 100 Bullets. Any opinion on that series?

Well, I'm mostly a Marvel fan, so I'll recommend the graphic novels I read when I started reading comics again a few years ago:

- Marvels (by Kurt Busiek and Alex Ross)

- Marvel 1602 (by Neil Gaiman and Andy Kubert)

- Loki (by Rob Rodi and Esad Ribic)

- Magneto: Testament (by Greg Pak and Carmine Di Giandomenico)

- Sub-Mariner: The Depths (by Peter Milligan and Esad Ribic)

- Captain Britain (Alan Moore's run)

Except for Captain Britain, all of those are self-contained stories, you don't need to know that much about the Marvel Universe to enjoy them. And they're all brilliant. :bowdown:

Thanks, I'll look for some of those. 1602 in particular sounds quite interesting.

Is it sad that I wasn't actually aware of the existence of a Captain Britain?

I read the first couple and it had a fun vibe reminiscent of Spider-man and they had an interesting spin with regards to his father. Not entirely sure why I gave up on it but I guess it just wasn't shaking things up that much. The fact it has been going for so long but doesn't generate much hest has me suspecting it's just very solid.

The problem with Marvel is that it's very hard to find trades that aren't tied into something else. I'd say the Bendis Daredevil run is self-contained over several volumes as is Brubaker's Captain america (I haven't read it though). If there are uncanny x-force trades out there I'd give that a try as the most recent gateway trade. JMS' Spider-man was initially very good and I've heard Dan Slott's spider-manhas been good so they are worth a look if you like the character. Hickman's Fantastic four run is supposed to be very good and he's just wrapping his run up so that's a good set of trades to look into, I wouldn't reccomend any of the Avengers or X-men trades tbh.

If you're willing to try monthlies Marvel is just rolling out it's big rebranding/incentive with the claim that all the issue 1s coming out are genuine "new reader accessible" and won't have crossovers for the first few months.

Is this a genuine panel/script for AVX consequences? It made me laugh.

Speaking of which, I was actually wondering: I hear wonderful things about Whedon's Astonishing X-men run. How deeply entrenched in continuity is AXM? Worth a buy, or should I read a bit more previous X-men first?