Comic Books, part 3

[red snow]

Yeah, I hope to God that's nto the angle the Movies are taking (although i fear it is). Shouldn't they call in Guardians of Earth if the Guardian's job is to first and foremost serve Earth? Enough shit goes down on Marvel Earth to warrant this, I guess, but given the shit-ton of super-powered beings (not to mention aliens) living here already these guardians seem redundant. Do we really need a tree and a raccoon (seem like obvious team-up) to tip the balance?

surely a SWORD series with agent Brand would be more apt for what Bendis wants to do? I hope he at least has SWORD as a background organisiation in GOTG.

[Isalie]

To be fair, in that case we should all kneel before DOOM.

You should, and will!

[Sci-2]

And that Bendis scene was incredibly OOC for Reed given the entirety of Hickman's arc,

?

I'm not seeing that. Seems like Reed would accept that the dominant power structure represented by Iron Man and Cap (aka Steroid Man :P ) would be subject to obsolescence?

eta: Especially since the climax of Hickman's arc was a mutant using the power of reality alteration to save the FF's lives.

[Little Valkyrie]

?

I'm not seeing that. Seems like Reed would accept that the dominant power structure represented by Iron Man and Cap (aka Steroid Man :P ) would be subject to obsolescence?

eta: Especially since the climax of Hickman's arc was a mutant using the power of reality alteration to save the FF's lives.

A large point of Reed's arc was that top down We-know-best trying to Solve Everything, which Reed has had some strong tendencies towards, is a really bad idea. So having him be all "Yay, look, they're doing stuff!" when the P5 goes around like that struck me as deeply OOC, given the character progression.

[Sci-2]

Really, I didn't see Reed abandon the top down approach at all - the Future Foundation is pretty much top down, it just incorporates a new generation of thinkers.

Of course, it's easy to bemoan Cyclops ending world hunger when you're a billionaire sitting pretty in the Baxter building. ;-)

[haLobEnder]

Yeah, I hope to God that's nto the angle the Movies are taking (although i fear it is). Shouldn't they call in Guardians of Earth if the Guardian's job is to first and foremost serve Earth? Enough shit goes down on Marvel Earth to warrant this, I guess, but given the shit-ton of super-powered beings (not to mention aliens) living here already these guardians seem redundant. Do we really need a tree and a raccoon (seem like obvious team-up) to tip the balance?

surely a SWORD series with agent Brand would be more apt for what Bendis wants to do? I hope he at least has SWORD as a background organisiation in GOTG.

1) They tried a SWORD series and it failed miserably. Even with Bendis on board it would probably having middling success.

2) This new Guardians comic exists solely because of the upcoming movie. It's a cash in plain and simple. I guarantee that you'll see graphic novels of this series in the front of every book store and big box department store a month or two before the movie is released.

Other than that, I agree with you.

Has anyone here read Peter David's Fallen Angel series? I picked up the first two omnibus editions a year or so back and haven't gotten around to reading them yet. Think I might do that soon.

[Little Valkyrie]

Really, I didn't see Reed abandon the top down approach at all - the Future Foundation is pretty much top down, it just incorporates a new generation of thinkers.

Of course, it's easy to bemoan Cyclops ending world hunger when you're a billionaire sitting pretty in the Baxter building. ;-)

Except of course now everything the P5 made is in ruins because it needed their power to sustain it because they didn't actually build it to last according to real world physics and all of that. Man, not even building it by Marvel real world infrastructure standards? Crappy work, y'all. :D

The Future Foundation, though, is about educating others and carrying out projects on a much smaller scale, as opposed to thinking that he himself can fix anything and everything. And when we get the epilogue next week, we're probably going to see God Tier Future Franklin take back off, when he could probably fix everything.

I know the whole issue was there in part to address the question of why the F4 (except Ben, of course) were absent during the whole shebang, but...I'm just going to sit here and keep shaking my fist at Bendis. (But I never liked the Illuminati idea to begin with, and I'm even skeptical of Hickman making hay out of it.)

[Sci-2]

Except of course now everything the P5 made is in ruins because it needed their power to sustain it because they didn't actually build it to last according to real world physics and all of that.

Oh, I just dismissed that as a railroaded plot maneuver to prove Captain Steroids correct. Of course, if the Avengers had worked with the P5 to make lasting structures we could have had a genuine Utopia on earth.

It basically goes back to GM's final X-men arc, where he showed us that hoping for genuine change in the X-men franchise was an exercise in futility. Once upon a time the X-men might have represented minorities struggling for acceptance, but now the demonization of Cyclops is an all too perfect mirror to reality in some ways.

[Winterfell is Burning]

And that Bendis scene was incredibly OOC for Reed given the entirety of Hickman's arc, but Bendis and reading what other people are doing are two things which have never gone well together.

I don't think it is: Reed simply sees no reason why the Avengers are going to war with some heroes that have been doing nothing but good. It's simply common sense. Nothing good could come out of it.

And Hickman himself said that AvX #6 the X-men were the heroes, and he didn't see what they were doing as wrong.

Oh, I just dismissed that as a railroaded plot maneuver to prove Captain Steroids correct. Of course, if the Avengers had worked with the P5 to make lasting structures we could have had a genuine Utopia on earth.

It basically goes back to GM's final X-men arc, where he showed us that hoping for genuine change in the X-men franchise was an exercise in futility. Once upon a time the X-men might have represented minorities struggling for acceptance, but now the demonization of Cyclops is an all too perfect mirror to reality in some ways.

Sublime= Marvel editors, terrified of change. He knew Marvel would do his best to ignore or retcon his run.

[red snow]

I don't think it is: Reed simply sees no reason why the Avengers are going to war with some heroes that have been doing nothing but good. It's simply common sense. Nothing good could come out of it.

And Hickman himself said that AvX #6 the X-men were the heroes, and he didn't see what they were doing as wrong.

Sublime= Marvel editors, terrified of change. He knew Marvel would do his best to ignore or retcon his run.

And didn't they do their best to retcon his entire run!

I'm curious as to how Hickman will feel when whatever was done in his FF run will disappear? I guess he can look at it as "I got to tell my entire story, that's enough" and he can console himself by playing with the Avengers franchise. Hickman wisely has his creator owned work for the stuff he really cares about too.

[Nephrite]

And didn't they do their best to retcon his entire run!

I'm curious as to how Hickman will feel when whatever was done in his FF run will disappear? I guess he can look at it as "I got to tell my entire story, that's enough" and he can console himself by playing with the Avengers franchise. Hickman wisely has his creator owned work for the stuff he really cares about too.

Truth be told, things were a bit different for Morrison. He ended his run and then took off for DC to do 7 Soldiers and ASS. And this being the comicbook industry where petty rules supreme...

Hickman so far seems to be friends with Marvel and his run ain't that radical in shaking the status quo. His biggest change besides costumes was killing off Johnny, and he handled that himself.

[Sci-2]

Sublime= Marvel editors, terrified of change. He knew Marvel would do his best to ignore or retcon his run.

What's hilarious is they retconned the high population of mutants, then erased the entire significance of that retcon with AvX.

It really is the worst Marvel event that I've read.

[Winterfell is Burning]

Truth be told, things were a bit different for Morrison. He ended his run and then took off for DC to do 7 Soldiers and ASS. And this being the comicbook industry where petty rules supreme...

Yes, it was known that Quesada was pretty mad with Morrison. and that was a factor in Marvel's decision to decimate the mutants.

[red snow]

Yes, it was known that Quesada was pretty mad with Morrison. and that was a factor in Marvel's decision to decimate the mutants.

But did they undo his run because Morrison left or did Morrison leave because they were undoing his run?

He was there for 3 years which is at least double the time a Marvel title needs an "all new, totally different" shake-up (3 times overdue by current standards) so I can imagine editorial was already trying to push him in a different direction. It seems like he was pretty annoyed with the Xorn/magneto thing (and who could blame him after seeing how they handled that) - I can understand Marvel wanting to retcon Magneto as a mass murderer (pretty sure he has that tag already given his long history and again ironic given AvX makes him a villain again) and I'd have thought Morrison was wise enough to realise this, but I can see his point with being annoyed with the Xorn thing as making him into an actual character messes with Morrison's story (and i thought it was a good reveal - especially the "you seriously thought I had a dwarf star as a brain" line)

[Nephrite]

But did they undo his run because Morrison left or did Morrison leave because they were undoing his run?

He was there for 3 years which is at least double the time a Marvel title needs an "all new, totally different" shake-up (3 times overdue by current standards) so I can imagine editorial was already trying to push him in a different direction. It seems like he was pretty annoyed with the Xorn/magneto thing (and who could blame him after seeing how they handled that) - I can understand Marvel wanting to retcon Magneto as a mass murderer (pretty sure he has that tag already given his long history and again ironic given AvX makes him a villain again) and I'd have thought Morrison was wise enough to realise this, but I can see his point with being annoyed with the Xorn thing as making him into an actual character messes with Morrison's story (and i thought it was a good reveal - especially the "you seriously thought I had a dwarf star as a brain" line)

He left cause DDio offered him the Superman gig. If I recall, he told Quesada that he's leaving during ComicCon. And he was a lot faster as a writer those days cause he was like a year ahead with New X-Men, so I don't think Xorn really played into it. And Marvel didn't have any creator owned stuff back then, so publishing Seaguy, We3 and Vimanarama wasn't going to happen if he was still there.

[red snow]

He left cause DDio offered him the Superman gig. If I recall, he told Quesada that he's leaving during ComicCon. And he was a lot faster as a writer those days cause he was like a year ahead with New X-Men, so I don't think Xorn really played into it. And Marvel didn't have any creator owned stuff back then, so publishing Seaguy, We3 and Vimanarama wasn't going to happen if he was still there.

Seems like Marvel should have given Morrison a more open contract although i guess back then, Vertigo was the creator owned home (Image was doing creator owned but wasn't doing as well as it is now). I guess DC could have been playing hardball by saying he had to leave Marvel to get the superman and creator owned gigs.

I still feel like Marvel wasn't comfortable with Morrison's run in that it was probably "too good" for them and definitely too progressive. It's probably why they had to have Chuck Austen wipe the slate clean. On the whole, Marvel (and DC) don't want to rock the boat and keep things fairly stable (with yearly changes of course) and while they like critical darlings, it's usually in the form of not being too different (eg Waid's Daredevil is traditional regardless of the quality and Whedon's X-men was pretty standard superheroics)

[Nephrite]

Seems like Marvel should have given Morrison a more open contract although i guess back then, Vertigo was the creator owned home (Image was doing creator owned but wasn't doing as well as it is now). I guess DC could have been playing hardball by saying he had to leave Marvel to get the superman and creator owned gigs.

I still feel like Marvel wasn't comfortable with Morrison's run in that it was probably "too good" for them and definitely too progressive. It's probably why they had to have Chuck Austen wipe the slate clean. On the whole, Marvel (and DC) don't want to rock the boat and keep things fairly stable (with yearly changes of course) and while they like critical darlings, it's usually in the form of not being too different (eg Waid's Daredevil is traditional regardless of the quality and Whedon's X-men was pretty standard superheroics)

I think back then DC was more desperate than hardball. They needed somebody to the point where they gave him his own continuity for Superman. Plus, going exclusive is great cause, hey free dental!

Judging by Morrison's interviews from back then he felt that the tide was changing and that once Marvel was no longer in danger of bankruptcy they were getting more conservative and less willing to take chances. Jemas wanted Marvel Boy 2 to be more down-to-earth and realistic. At the same time DC was open to new ideas. Basically he said the same thing he said when he was leaving DC for Marvel few years before. DC wasn't gonna let him Waid, Millar & Peyer to revamp Superman (or give him any other gig at all) while Marvel was all "Sure, X-Men can wear leather jackets".

The same thing is probably happening now, except Image entered the playing field.

[Sci-2]

Yes, it was known that Quesada was pretty mad with Morrison. and that was a factor in Marvel's decision to decimate the mutants.

Didn't he scream at GM during a DC panel ("YOU OWE ME!")? Or was that just rumor?

[red snow]

I guess Morisson couldn't have much to complain about the way DC has treated him since he came back to do Superman and Batman. It seems like his current departure is solely to do with him wanting to create some of his own intellectual property - and i'm surprised DC couldn't offer him a good deal via Vertigo.

I'd love if the rumour was truw that Quesada screamed "you owe mw" at GM in a serious way.

Just finished the most recent Walking Dead trade. They've introduced a fun character into the mix and seem to be finally opening up the world. It also looks like there's going to be some human vs human action coming up, which is fairly soon given they're only 4 issues off 100.

[Ouroboros]

I guess Morisson couldn't have much to complain about the way DC has treated him since he came back to do Superman and Batman. It seems like his current departure is solely to do with him wanting to create some of his own intellectual property - and i'm surprised DC couldn't offer him a good deal via Vertigo.

Vertigo has changed a lot in the last couple of years, there's a reason folks were worried Vertigo was closing up shop. Instead they were drafting new contracts to get more control over the books and wider profits, making it less appealing for people to publish creator owned work there.