Rereading Tyrion III (ACOK)

[tze]

If nothing else it shows that he's capable of putting one over on both Varys and LF - which as we know is no mean feat.

Did it, though? All that Tyrion's scheme told him is that Pycelle told this bit of information to Cersei, while Varys and Littlefinger held their tongues about this bit of information. That does not mean that Varys and Littlefinger will always refuse to pass on all information to Cersei---all it means is that, in this particular instance, they chose not to do so. And an easy explanation for their decision could be that Varys and Littlefinger both smelled a rat here while Pycelle did not; that Varys and Littlefinger might not necessarily have realized how Tyrion meant to entrap them, but might still recognized that an attempt at trapping them was being made nonetheless, and kept their mouths shut rather than walk into that trap. In which case, the point of Pycelle telling Cersei would simply be to illustrate that, of the main trio of schemers in King's Landing, Pycelle was simply the least cunning---by going to Cersei, Pycelle actually demonstrated himself to be the least dangerous to Tyrion, because he's the only one Tyrion knows 100% he can outsmart (as Pycelle fell into the trap that Varys and Littlefinger avoided).

For that matter, the whole point of this scheme was to suss out Cersei's informers on the Council. But for all Tyrion knows, Varys and Littlefinger could have been feeding this information to parties other than Cersei---the Tyrells, for example, or Stannis. Those groups that are actually opposing House Lannister. Tyrion's scheme successfully uncovered Pycelle as . . . a Lannister spy! But you'd think it's the spies not reporting to members of House Lannister that should be Tyrion's primary concern, given the fact that House Lannister is facing multiple rebellions on multiple fronts. And by publicly punishing Pycelle (and thus, making sure that Varys and Littlefinger now know beyond a shadow of a doubt that Tyrion was "playing" them both all along), Tyrion basically exposes himself---his methods and his way of thinking---to the more dangerous players of the game. Players whose actual allegiances Tyrion still doesn't know. And his actual reward, finding out who on the Council was reporting to a Lannister (instead of who was reporting to, say, a Baratheon) doesn't actually strike me as having been worth Tyrion basically showing his cards to Varys and Littlefinger.

And I think one of the reasons readers may subconsciously be reminded of Cersei during this whole episode is because Cersei's later approach to power was to go after the allies she perceived as enemies before (and often, instead of) her actual, named enemies. Here, Tyrion isn't focusing on sussing out Stannis's spies on the Council, Renly's spies on the Council, or even the Stark/Tully potential sympathizers on the Council. He's focusing his time and energy on Cersei, who as a fellow Lannister is supposed to be his ally, instead of on House Lannister's Baratheon/Stark/etc. enemies. In a way, his approach to rulership here does actually echo Cersei's, because like her, he focuses on breaking the power of his supposed ally before (and therefore, instead of) his known enemies (just as we know Cersei will later focus her time and energy on destroying the Tyrells, her supposed allies, instead of her Baratheon/Greyjoy enemies).

As noted above, this is very much a low risk/high reward move that he's making.

It's "low risk" in the sense that Tyrion is in no physical danger even if this scheme falls apart, but taken in the greater context of the power plays in King's Landing, can we really say that this scheme was "low risk/high reward" in the long run? I don't think we can. In exchange for finding a spy reporting to another member of House Lannister, Tyrion basically sacrificed something he can never, ever recover: the element of surprise. Varys and Littlefinger now have his measure, and won't allow themselves to be blindly played or manipulated out of ignorance as to Tyrion's scheming abilities. Tyrion can no longer rely on being underestimated or on the unfamiliarity of his methods. And he's sacrificed these advantages---Varys's and Littlefinger's unfamiliarity with him, his methods, and his goals---in exchange for a rather small reward: a noted Lannister loyalist. Now, Tyrion has removed the least dangerous member of the trio of schemers (the least dangerous to House Lannister as a whole, and the least dangerous to Tyrion in particular, given that Tyrion now knows he can outsmart Pycelle), but left the more dangerous two at large. Was the benefit Tyrion got really worth it, in the long term?

[Foxhound]

If Varys did try (and succeeded) in framing Littlefinger, the result would almost certainly have been some kind of public wrath directed at the Master of Coin from the Queen (Cersei never lets things like that go unpunished). Tyrion would have observed this, and drawn conclusions accordingly.

I just said Varys can tell Cersei only that Tyrion wants to send Myrcella, not any details about him using Littlefinger as mediator.

Even if Cersei's reaction had indicated to Tyrion that she gotten hold of more than one of his threads (this would have been indicated simply by her failure to react to one of his ploys in particular), he will still derive information from this. It will automatically implicate Pycelle (who was the only one who could have tripped up Littlefinger and Varys in their assumptions about what Tyrion had told them). In any case, he's been on the scene long enough now to guess that it is extremely unlikely that any of these men are in fact working together, so he takes the chance.

As noted above, this is very much a low risk/high reward move that he's making.

Who said anything about them working together? If Cersei first hears about Myrcella from Pycelle, then a independent, different story from Varys (along with that Tyrion is trying to ferret out her sources), then if she's not a moron she won't react at Tyrion intended.

[Axrendale]

I just said Varys can tell Cersei only that Tyrion wants to send Myrcella, not any details about him using Littlefinger as mediator.

Then in that case, after his sister confronted him Tyrion would have been able to go to Littlefinger and say "The deal's off because you blabbed" (it is highly unlikely that he would have treated him as he did Pycelle). Littlefinger would have put two and two together and realised that Varys had ratted him out (at this point he thought Tyrion's offer was genuine), and enmity would have been stirred up between the two most dangerous players in the city. Tyrion's plan would not have worked out as intended, but he still would have benefitted.

In any case, the main point of the exercise was for Tyrion to determine which of the SC members he could trust to keep information from his sister if instructed to do so. By keeping the "information" about Tommen from the Queen, Varys would have proven himself in that regard (even if his motive was simply to screw over Littlefinger), and so Tyrion's original aim would have been partially fulfilled anyway, since he also would have confirmed that he could trust Pycelle.

But that was not what happened, as we see in the book.

Who said anything about them working together? If Cersei first hears about Myrcella from Pycelle, then a independent, different story from Varys (along with that Tyrion is trying to ferret out her sources), then if she's not a moron she won't react at Tyrion intended.

Nobody ever went broke betting on Cersei's incompetence as an intruiger.

Also, when did Tyrion ever tell Varys that he was trying to "ferret out" Cersei's sources? He told the eunuch that he would consider any man who betrayed his trust to be a "mortal enemy", but that was just a variation of what he said to Pycelle and Littlefinger - the Queen must not know. The only way that anyone could have figured out what Tyrion was up to would be if Varys and/or Littlefinger exchanged notes with Pycelle and realised the contradiction in offers being made by Tyrion. No matter how many of the stories made their way back to Cersei, as soon as she realised that he was planning to do something with her children she would have confronted him, and whatever she said about what she knew about his plans would have given him at least some information about who she had been talking with.

And in any case, the entire scheme was just a byproduct of Tyrion's real initiative, which all along was to send an offer to Prince Doran. The fact that he was able to do a (successful) test to see which SC members were spying for his sister was just a bonus.

[Elba the Intoner]

And in any case, the entire scheme was just a byproduct of Tyrion's real initiative, which all along was to send an offer to Prince Doran. The fact that he was able to do a (successful) test to see which SC members were spying for his sister was just a bonus.

Except that I thought it was always known to everyone there that Pycelle was spying for Cersei. Even Ned said back in AGOT that Pycelle was Cersei's creature. So, it hardly seems like that is a big coup. Though I suppose it then gives him the necessary ammunition to take Pycelle out of power which does seem to be the main directive Tywin gives him.

But what I keep coming back to the most though is the exchange with Littlefinger which not only confirms Tyrion's suspicions about Littlefinger lying about the dagger, but that Littlefinger now knows he knows. First of all, shouldn't he be pissed off at Littlefinger and want revenge on him with this confirmation? He obviously wants revenge for what happened to him when he was taken to the Vale, and even in this chapter bitterly remembers Sweetrobin saying "make the little man fly". He seems to be more upset and bitter about the words of a spoiled rotten 7 year old rather than the guy whom he now knows without a doubt is the one who put him in that situation to begin with. Secondly, he does again recognize that LF's dangerous but he just basically outed himself to this dangerous man and that can't be a good thing. Mainly, I just don't get why we don't see Tyrion thinking here, "So, I was right. It was Littlefinger who lied about the dagger and got me kidnapped and nearly killed! I'm going to get him for that - a Lannister always pays his debts!!"

[Axrendale]

Except that I thought it was always known to everyone there that Pycelle was spying for Cersei. Even Ned said back in AGOT that Pycelle was Cersei's creature. So, it hardly seems like that is a big coup. Though I suppose it then gives him the necessary ammunition to take Pycelle out of power which does seem to be the main directive Tywin gives him.

All of the three courtiers that Tyrion plies with information in this chapter have worked for Cersei in the past. Pycelle is an obvious case, but Littlefinger acted as Cersei's willing agent during the succession, and Varys by his own admission has been feeding the Queen information for years.

The point of Tyrion's scheme is to uncover who is spying for Cersei now - so that he knows which members of the SC he can rely on when push comes to shove in his struggle for power with his sister.

But what I keep coming back to the most though is the exchange with Littlefinger which not only confirms Tyrion's suspicions about Littlefinger lying about the dagger, but that Littlefinger now knows he knows. First of all, shouldn't he be pissed off at Littlefinger and want revenge on him with this confirmation? He obviously wants revenge for what happened to him when he was taken to the Vale, and even in this chapter bitterly remembers Sweetrobin saying "make the little man fly". He seems to be more upset and bitter about the words of a spoiled rotten 7 year old rather than the guy whom he now knows without a doubt is the one who put him in that situation to begin with. Secondly, he does again recognize that LF's dangerous but he just basically outed himself to this dangerous man and that can't be a good thing. Mainly, I just don't get why we don't see Tyrion thinking here, "So, I was right. It was Littlefinger who lied about the dagger and got me kidnapped and nearly killed! I'm going to get him for that - a Lannister always pays his debts!!"

The chapter makes very clear that Tyrion has not forgotten that it was Littlefinger who set him up with regards the dagger and Catelyn Stark, but one of the key points that is made in this chapter is that Littlefinger is far too dangerous - and far too indispensable (his wizardry with money is the only reason that the Crown's finances remain functionable) - to move against directly. Instead Tyrion contents himself with a somewhat pettier payback by tricking Baelish while he determines whether the man has allied himself with Cersei.

[Axrendale]

Did it, though? All that Tyrion's scheme told him is that Pycelle told this bit of information to Cersei, while Varys and Littlefinger held their tongues about this bit of information. That does not mean that Varys and Littlefinger will always refuse to pass on all information to Cersei---all it means is that, in this particular instance, they chose not to do so. And an easy explanation for their decision could be that Varys and Littlefinger both smelled a rat here while Pycelle did not; that Varys and Littlefinger might not necessarily have realized how Tyrion meant to entrap them, but might still recognized that an attempt at trapping them was being made nonetheless, and kept their mouths shut rather than walk into that trap. In which case, the point of Pycelle telling Cersei would simply be to illustrate that, of the main trio of schemers in King's Landing, Pycelle was simply the least cunning---by going to Cersei, Pycelle actually demonstrated himself to be the least dangerous to Tyrion, because he's the only one Tyrion knows 100% he can outsmart (as Pycelle fell into the trap that Varys and Littlefinger avoided).

This contradicts the sections of the chapter that strongly suggests that both Littlefinger and Varys believed the information that Tyrion passed on to them was genuine. This is particularly the case with Littlefinger, where we get a characterization of his reactions as Tyrion makes his proposal to him that seem extremely unlikely to have been simply an act:

Littlefinger looked like a boy who had just taken a furtive bite from a honeycomb. He was trying to watch for bees, but the honey was so sweet...

Whether through luck or deduction, Tyrion in making his offer to Baelish (Harrenhal in exchange for a bargin with Lysa Arryn) manages to hit on Littlefinger's two single greatest weaknesses: his insatiable greed and his twisted personal relationship to the Tullys and the Riverlands. Accordingly, the Master of Coin takes the bait in Tyrion's trap, and agrees to act as his emissary. When he subsequently fails to pass on any of this on to the Queen, he thereby indicates to Tyrion that his agenda is not bound up with hers, for all the favors that he did her in the past.

The deception that went on with Varys was even more subtle, precisely because there was almost no actual deception involved in it - simply misdirection. Tyrion told the Master of Whisperers no lies about what he had discussed with Littlefinger (Varys knew that for himself, thanks to his little birds), and most of what he confirmed to the eunuch about the letter to Doran Martell was also true. It was only on a single detail (the fact that Myrcella was the primary subject of the letter rather than her brother) that Varys made an incorrect guess - and Tyrion didn't correct him. By doing so he effectively turned Varys' greatest strength (his peerless talent as a spymaster) against him. When none of what Varys had "learned" about the matter made it back to Cersei, the Imp thus confirmed the absence of any private "arrangements" between the Spider and Cersei that would supersede his own.

It is worth remembering what we find out in a later chapter: that Tyrion was actually hoping that either Littlefinger or Varys would betray him to Cersei, as it would confirm the opinions that he already had of them (self-interested snakes). Instead those two remained loyal on this matter, whilst Pycelle exposed himself as an untrustworthy servant for the Hand.

For that matter, the whole point of this scheme was to suss out Cersei's informers on the Council. But for all Tyrion knows, Varys and Littlefinger could have been feeding this information to parties other than Cersei---the Tyrells, for example, or Stannis. Those groups that are actually opposing House Lannister. Tyrion's scheme successfully uncovered Pycelle as . . . a Lannister spy! But you'd think it's the spies not reporting to members of House Lannister that should be Tyrion's primary concern, given the fact that House Lannister is facing multiple rebellions on multiple fronts. And by publicly punishing Pycelle (and thus, making sure that Varys and Littlefinger now know beyond a shadow of a doubt that Tyrion was "playing" them both all along), Tyrion basically exposes himself---his methods and his way of thinking---to the more dangerous players of the game. Players whose actual allegiances Tyrion still doesn't know. And his actual reward, finding out who on the Council was reporting to a Lannister (instead of who was reporting to, say, a Baratheon) doesn't actually strike me as having been worth Tyrion basically showing his cards to Varys and Littlefinger.

If Tyrion had even the slightest suspicion that any of the members of the Small Council were working for any of the other Great Houses, he would have reverted to his father's suggested solution to the problem: Heads, Spikes, Walls.

Although Tyrion and Cersei might be ostensible allies, there is no question that they are political opponents: they both desire autonomous political power to rule King's Landing, and are thus inevitably driven to subvert each other. Tyrion was sent to become Acting Hand in the first place precisely because his father intended for him to supplant his sister as the chief protector of Lannister interests in the capital (at least until Lord Tywin himself can return to the city). When Cersei refuses to go quietly into the night on the matter, Tyrion naturally has recourse to deprive her of her tools of power, which essentially boils down to convincing all of her major supporters in the city to transfer their allegiance to him - and eliminating them if they will not do so. The removal of Pycelle from the Small Council is one piece of a larger pattern (Janos Slynt, the Lannister guardsmen, Lancel, the Kettleblacks, custody of the Prince and Princess, etc) of moves by which Tyrion aims to neuter his sister's ability to act against him in any capacity, so that he alone will possess the (de facto) authority to enact policies for the governing and defence of King's Landing.

Since both Littlefinger and Varys have "played" Tyrion in the past (and will do so again in the future) while continuing to work with him, they are not exactly in a position to feel disappointed when he decides to return the favor. The incident with Pycelle could potentially even work to Tyrion's advantage on this front: by making a pointed demonstration (the flip side of "exposing himself") of his own capacity to "play the game", and by also making an example out of Pycelle to show what happens to people that he catches in the act of crossing him, he establishes himself as a greater potential danger, and therefore makes the other players wary of moving against him as long as he is in a position of strength.

And I think one of the reasons readers may subconsciously be reminded of Cersei during this whole episode is because Cersei's later approach to power was to go after the allies she perceived as enemies before (and often, instead of) her actual, named enemies. Here, Tyrion isn't focusing on sussing out Stannis's spies on the Council, Renly's spies on the Council, or even the Stark/Tully potential sympathizers on the Council. He's focusing his time and energy on Cersei, who as a fellow Lannister is supposed to be his ally, instead of on House Lannister's Baratheon/Stark/etc. enemies. In a way, his approach to rulership here does actually echo Cersei's, because like her, he focuses on breaking the power of his supposed ally before (and therefore, instead of) his known enemies (just as we know Cersei will later focus her time and energy on destroying the Tyrells, her supposed allies, instead of her Baratheon/Greyjoy enemies).

Sorry, but this is completely wrong.

Almost all of Tyrion's activities in this chapter are a demonstration that he is overwhelmingly focussed on "going after" and "breaking the power of" the known enemies of House Lannister. He sends an offer of alliance to Doran Martell, to create a diversion that could draw off some of the strength of the Stormlands from the Baratheons. He recieves reports that progress is being made on the construction of the harbor chain that he intends to use against Stannis's fleet. He has Bronn recruiting sellswords to bolster the armed forces of the city. He is looking for ways to tackle the problem of food shortages in the city, in anticipation of a siege. And he is following the progress of Lord Tywin's war effort in the Riverlands. The fact that all of these things are priorities does not mean however, that he can affford to ignore domestic political dissent, which is what he seeks to flush out with the scheme that has been the primary subject of discussion thus far in this thread.

In the next Tyrion chapter, it is noted that one of the great signs of skill/competence in "playing the game", is the ability to make moves that accomplish multiple objectives simultaneously (we will see this with Tyrion's move to provide an escort for Cleos Frey, by which he at once manages to deprive his sister of her guardsmen, smuggle a team of operatives into Riverrun to try and rescue his brother, and make a gesture of respect towards Robb Stark). He does this in the present chapter as well, by using a diplomatic (brokering an alliance with Dorne) and political (removing Myrcella and Tommen from Cersei's custody) initiative that he was already going to carry out in any case to pose a loyalty test for the Small Council, as well as getting a small but satisfying measure of revenge against Littlefinger, filching a useful poison from Pycelle, and increasing the respect in which he is held by Varys (who of all the players seems most willing to appreciate fellow connoisseurs of the game - possibly a factor in his later decision to include the Imp in his schemes with Illyrio).

It's "low risk" in the sense that Tyrion is in no physical danger even if this scheme falls apart, but taken in the greater context of the power plays in King's Landing, can we really say that this scheme was "low risk/high reward" in the long run? I don't think we can. In exchange for finding a spy reporting to another member of House Lannister, Tyrion basically sacrificed something he can never, ever recover: the element of surprise. Varys and Littlefinger now have his measure, and won't allow themselves to be blindly played or manipulated out of ignorance as to Tyrion's scheming abilities. Tyrion can no longer rely on being underestimated or on the unfamiliarity of his methods. And he's sacrificed these advantages---Varys's and Littlefinger's unfamiliarity with him, his methods, and his goals---in exchange for a rather small reward: a noted Lannister loyalist. Now, Tyrion has removed the least dangerous member of the trio of schemers (the least dangerous to House Lannister as a whole, and the least dangerous to Tyrion in particular, given that Tyrion now knows he can outsmart Pycelle), but left the more dangerous two at large. Was the benefit Tyrion got really worth it, in the long term?

Most of these have been addressed above (there are disadvantages as well as advantages to being underestimated when one is playing the game). However, one additional point that is worth making is that in the course of unmasking Pycelle's treachery, Tyrion is able to satisfy himself that the Grand Maester's loyalty is a poisoned gift to whoever possesses it. Pycelle has turned on all of the men that he had previously sworn allegiance to (the only exception to this rule has been Tywin), and as Tyrion puts it in a later chapter, while there is no way of knowing where the list of his betrayals and treacheries begins, it is easy to know where it will end.

It is also worth noting that by making such a dramatic move against Cersei's powerbase through the removal of one of her key allies, Tyrion successfully provokes his sister into a response that will provide him with still further benefit in his political struggle with her: when she sends Lancel to demand Pycelle's release from the Black Cells, it gives Tyrion the opportunity to turn his cousin to his own purposes as a double-agent against the Queen.

[Natalie_S]

Great posts, Axrendale, I'm really missing the like button.

[Axrendale]

Great posts, Axrendale, I'm really missing the like button.

Thank you. :)

[Lyanna Stark]

Wow, over 4 pages since I checked this thread last night. You are on fire, people. :o

It is also worth noting that by making such a dramatic move against Cersei's powerbase through the removal of one of her key allies, Tyrion successfully provokes his sister into a response that will provide him with still further benefit in his political struggle with her: when she sends Lancel to demand Pycelle's release from the Black Cells, it gives Tyrion the opportunity to turn his cousin to his own purposes as a double-agent against the Queen.

I do think that there is a problem here though, like Tze pointed out. Which may, or may not be tied to the fact that Tyrion here is by necessity thinking rather in the short perspective and also that he has no real long term goal with what to do with power.

He's very successful in provoking a response from Cersei, in removing Pycelle as a potential leak and in pressing Lancel into his service.

However, when Myrcella actually sails for Dorne, both Varys and LF will know that they were being played, because what Tyrion told them wasn't true. And he also dangled Harrenhal in front of LF, which with Myrcella sent to Dorne, he won't get. We also see that longterm, the enemy he made out of Littlefinger will come back and bite him in the ass most violently.

So it's a bit short term vs. long term here. In the short term, Tyrion is very efficient. In the long term though? Then it becomes a bit more shaky.

EDIT: Would also like to give :thumbsup: to the excellent posts in here when the like system is temporarily non-functional. Lots of good stuff and a special thanks to Axrendale for the extensive write-up of Tyrion's schemes. :)

[Axrendale]

I do think that there is a problem here though, like Tze pointed out. Which may, or may not be tied to the fact that Tyrion here is by necessity thinking rather in the short perspective and also that he has no real long term goal with what to do with power.

He's very successful in provoking a response from Cersei, in removing Pycelle as a potential leak and in pressing Lancel into his service.

However, when Myrcella actually sails for Dorne, both Varys and LF will know that they were being played, because what Tyrion told them wasn't true. And he also dangled Harrenhal in front of LF, which with Myrcella sent to Dorne, he won't get. We also see that longterm, the enemy he made out of Littlefinger will come back and bite him in the ass most violently.

So it's a bit short term vs. long term here. In the short term, Tyrion is very efficient. In the long term though? Then it becomes a bit more shaky.

This is definitely an excellent point.

While a large part of it does indeed tie into Tyrion's lack of an obvious desired "end point" for himself, a part of it I think also comes back to the circumstances in which he is in at the moment. His ability to think about the long term is somewhat constrained by the fact that in the relatively immediate future he knows that he is likely to be commanding a siege against a greatly superior enemy force, and that in the event that he should somehow survive that occurence, sooner or later he is going to have to confront the prospect of his father returning as the dominant presence in his life.

For Tyrion at this moment, the phrase "in the long run we're all dead" has an unpleasantly literal ring about it.

and a special thanks to Axrendale for the extensive write-up of Tyrion's schemes. :)

Thank you, in turn. :)

[Lummel]

Yes I think this chapter stands out in contrast to the later one in which Tyrion turns one of Cersei's men into his own. It's subtle and gains him useful information. Tyrion has got dirt, incriminating information, that he could have used to pressurise Pycelle and make him his own man - but he chooses not to, preferring to run his caper. He ends up leaving Littlefinger free although Tyrion should know enough to use his head as an educative tool for the people of Kings Landing - Cersei told Tyrion in Tyrion I ACOK that it was Baelish who came up with the idea to drop Selmy. That's enough to win him a one way cruise to visit the Wall and the wonders of the far north. In addition there is the business of the knive. If Masha Heddle gets hanged for her part in Tyrion's arrest, then there is enough in Petyr Baelish's for him to be hung, drawn and quartered!

I take what you say on board Axrendale - but Tyrion is running a risk with his caper. Jon Arryn and The Ned died because they demonstrated that they knew too much. As Ragnorak points out Tyrion is starting off a chain of events here that will end with him on trial for the murder of Joffrey. But in the short term it pays off.

I wouldn't blame him for not having a long term plan, wasn't it Keynes who said that in the long term we're all dead? In Tyrion's case even before that if the war is won then Tywin will surely return to be hand and Tyrion will be back to being international man of leisure (potentially). Even pushing Littlefinger out of the financial nexus is at this stage too ambitious a goal for him to persue when the Lannisters need to keep the gold flowing.

The significance of this chapter in my opinion is that Tyrion really enjoys his caper, has such fun with it and that we as readers have huge fun with it too. It draws us in. We're on his side. Not critical, but appreciative. We want Tyrion to win out and prove that he is the smartest man in the small council (if you'll forgive the Jimmy McNulty reference).

This gets back to the pattern that started in Tyrion I AGOT where he is introduced to us as a character with the word sympathetic stamped on his forehead (he's a reader - just like us! A dwarf, poor guy and so on). On the one hand GRRM is setting him up to be sympathetic to us while with the other Tyrion engages with us directly. He has fun, we have fun. He strikes back at people who have hurt the Starks - we like this.

Not all the POVs work like this. As a contrast consider Catelyn. Increasingly her POV is about suffering, loss, and pain. For some people reading ASOIAF this seems to be simply a turn off. It's very powerful writing but it holds you at arms length. Her grief is intense but private, well that's my impression - that you are left there like Brienne unable to offer any comfort in the face of the losses that she endures. (I'm starting to feel sad now just thinking about it all!)

What I want to do here is just underline how manipulative GRRM is through his use of POV. Then to ask what are the consequences of this manipulation. We've just read how Tyrion has ruined Pycelle's week and left him clutching his beard like a life line - how did you feel reading that? You can read how I felt - hehe - you've been got good old man! What about when Tyrion broke Marillon's fingers? How did you feel? I enjoyed it - that dog Marillon, he deserved it!

Now it may surprise you to know that in real life I'm moderately mild mannered and not to be found humiliating old men or breaking the fingers of even really annoying people, you'll just have to take my word for this. But such is the effect of the writing on me, that I enjoy Tyrion's actions there and vicariously partake in them. It doesn't stop there because we know where Tyrion ends up and what he ends up doing. Some of those actions are really beyond the Pale. Not just grey but black. Now how far is our view of those actions changed because GRRM has written this POV to really draw us in and make us into Tyrion's buddy? How far do you end up going along and approving of Tyrion's actions - does he do something that leaves you thinking - wooah, you've gone too far, I can't excuse that! ?

All of which is in my opinion a fantastic tribute to GRRM's writing.

...Varys accurately points out that Doran will want the head of the lord that gave the order-- something that will play a huge role in Tyrion's fate one day. Both Tyrion and Varys use the term "honeycomb." I don't specifically recall anyone else using that term, especially when it comes to power. The freckled prostitute last chapter had honeyed hair and a chain of blue flowers, Tyrion's porridge with Pycelle wanted honey (and his egg wanted salt.) A quick search has a number of references to honey in Bran's chapters which is probably noteworthy just not for Tyrion...

The only thing I can think with honey is bees. The honey is sweet but there is the risk of getting stung by the bees. Also honeytrap, whihc is the same idea I suppose.

Pycelle's beard is also symbolising his wisdom - by removing his beard, Tyrion is effectively removing his 'influence' and showing Pycelle for what he really is - a lickspittle.

I think this is almost crueler than: walls, heads, spikes.

It's very GRRM - stripping away images and archetypes (the wise wizardly whitebeard) to reveal something paltry.

It's a bit like pulling down the curtain that the wonderful wizard of Oz hides behind.

[Lyanna Stark]

Some comments on Tyrion's adversaries in the Small Council, especially Littlefinger.

But first, Pycelle, who says:

"I am here to serve."

But to echo Lady Dustbin's later sentiment, who is he serving, exactly? Tywin? The Citadel's larger agenda? Varys at this point is an enigma, and LF serves LF. Comments like this from Pycelle and later Varys who claims he serves the Realm also indicate that there's a higher purpose or something else than what it looks that they serve. But what that is may vary quite a lot.

I also found Tyrion listing loads of poisons interesting. Is it possible LF nicked some Tears of Lys off Pycelle? Jon Arryn was killed by the Tears of Lys, given to him by Lysa, who in turn, I imagine, got the poison from Littlefinger. We also have Tyrion's association with poison continuing later since he gets framed for Joffrey's murder, also a poisoning. Tyrion also poisons Cersei and Nurse himself (although of course Cersei's isn't lethal).

Other small things:

Possible foreshadowing on Bronn marrying Lollys?

"Perhaps you should eat the goose and marry the maid. Or better still, send Shagga."

we know that Bronn does eat the proverbial goose since he accepts Lollys' hand in marriage later.

Tyrion thinks on Shae as a girlfriend/lady wife replacement in that he thinks if the worst should come, he needs to make contingency plans to get her out of the city. But, Shae's a whore. If Tyrion dies, the logical conclusion would be that just like before when she was a camp follower, she'd find another client. Tyrion doesn't want to see the prostitute - john relationship in this moment though.

Onwards to Littlefinger:

Tyrion and Pod has this little conversation:

"Lord Littlefinger." Podrick managed a quick look at his face, then hastily dropped his eyes. "I meant, Lord Petyr. Lord Baelish. The master of coin".

"You make him sound a crowd."

I think Sansa as of AFFC would probably agree with Pod's assessment here of LF as a "crowd". He uses his different personalities when it suits him and he can be either Lord Littlefinger or Petyr Baelish, or maybe something else, when it suits him.

We also see some exposition on Littlefinger in this chapter, and together with what we learnt in the last one, it seems the picture of LF as not only clever, but also totally ruthless and with a downright nasty cruel streak emerges. LF comes across as a mafia boss, or even more perhaps a Russian oligarch type of person. He runs a whole empire outside the law, while at the same time keeping up appearances and showing a respectable face. Underneath it though, he is a snake. With his laughing at Shireen, we also see that he's got no sympathy for the less fortunate, even a poor little disfigured girl is not beyond him to mock. LF does not care if he kicks those that are already down, in fact he seems to rather enjoy it.

Even the people he seems to care for do not get a good deal either. We see Joffrey shooting hares with a crossbow, and not much later we see him aiming that crossbow at Sansa Stark. It's likely Littlefinger knew about Joffrey's tormenting Sansa to such a degree that the Kingsguard beat her black and blue, and she was forced to pick dresses that would cover it up, in the best Beaten wife type of behaviour. Yet LF doesn't even bother mentioning it to Cersei, or Tyrion. In fact, he doesn't give two shits for this image of Cat come again that he is obviously planning to do something with already (due to him so strongly dissuading Tyrion to trade Jaime for Sansa, which we know Cat actually wanted anyway). He is fine with Cat's daughter being abused, or at least it doesn't bother him.

I think it's also probably safe to say that LF has used whatever tactic he could to get richer and more powerful, as long as it did not reflect badly back on himself. Tyrion definitely seems suspicious of his amazingly quick rise to power. I know we've also speculated before that LF lines his pockets with the King's gold, and from the descriptions of his shady business and how hard it is for Tyrion to follow his book keeping, that definitely seems likely.

LF's reaction to Tyrion name dropping Jon Arryn's killed and telling LF he'd hand that person to Lysa is also interesting, since LF well knows the killer is Lysa herself, with him acting in the background, so to speak. I actually think his choice of words betray that he thinks Tyrion will name a false killer:

"True killer? I confess, you make me curious. Who do you propose?"

This sounds more like LF wonders who Tyrion proposes as the fall guy, not who really did it.

Regarding the clansmen, I wonder if LF knows that Tyrion armed them? It's probably likely. So more mummery here from LF and Tyrion both.

However, I do think Tyrion is spot on when he sees LF revert almost to boyhood when he gets offered Harrenhal. How ickle Petyr tries so hard to seem unmoved, but can't help but betray his feelings on the matter. It does reveal that LF plays the game for LF, with naked ambition and a lust for power as his motivations. Plus a nice little revenge at the Tullys, too. (This is btw why I think the Harry the Heir marriage is a ruse when it comes to Sansa. LF here wants to crush the Tullys and show how he is more powerful, and what better way than to supplant them as Lord Paramount of the Riverlands, while marrying a Tully daughter in Sansa.)

[Ragnorak]

We have another case of Tyrion feeling guilty over his verbal sarcasm with Pod like he did with Jon early in GoT.

What are we to make of LF's colors? The Mockingbird fits with a man who grows bored with a single House's colors. Whose colors are these? House Plumm fits. Their motto is "Come Try Me" which fits with his attitude toward Tyrion. Our most famous member of that House is Brown Ben but I can't think of any connection with LF nor would we see any on a first read if it is there. Any more appropriate House colors that might apply to LF's garb?

Not liking a single House color does not bode well for a man looking to claim a seat like Harrenhal. Lyanna pointed out LF's boyish delight at the offer which he was unable to hide. Tyrion also notes that LF could not abide a long silence. This is not a patient man who has mastered his face. Despite his accomplishments at deceit he could still use a couple of Arya's lying game lessons. So far I'm less impressed with both Tyrion and LF than I was before and more impressed with Varys. The most striking part of that for me is the realization that Varys is practically going out of his way to keep LF in play. Of course Varys is a patient man. He may well have been working to get Aegon on the throne before he was even conceived. Unlike Tyrion he had quite a long term plan.

I'm less sympathetic toward Tyrion this reread than I was initially. There's still a caveat attached to almost all of his less than admirable actions. Even the singer (who we haven't gotten to yet) was trying to blackmail him. He isn't the one dragging a purely innocent Jeyne Poole off to a brothel or sending her off to marry Ramsay Snow. He may have gloated over Masha Heddle but he didn't hang her. So even Tyrion's uglier internal side is frought with grey.

[A wilding]

Since I seem to have adopted the fact checker role in these threads.

... Cersei told Tyrion in Tyrion I ACOK that it was Baelish who came up with the idea to drop Selmy ...

It was Varys, not Baelish. (Varys presumably wanted Selmy to join Dany; Baelish would not have had any motive.)

[Lummel]

Littlefinger is an interesting contrast to Tyrion.

They are both cunning trickster figures but Littlefinger is, is sociopathic too strong a word for him? Tyrion has at least Casterly Rock, family and as has been pointed out a capacity for genuine friendship and companionship. At least when he, Bronn and Varys are gathered together it feels like a gang of cronies - men who trust each other (even though we know that Varys is actually committed to the Aegonist cause).

They both rely on brains and family connections for their advancement, but Tyrion is part of a family system until ADWD, even then Casterly Rock is still magnetic north for him which means that he aims not at escaping the family system but rebuilding it around himself. Littlefinger is free of the bonds, obligation and support of family - he is the loose cannon rolling across the deck crushing anybody in its path.

I feel that Littlefinger also represents the corruption and failure of King Bob's regime. Climbing up due to sexual favours from a relationship that dishonoured the friendship of their fathers (and presumably broke the bonds of guest right too?). Regularly cuckholding the Hand of the King, pimping and pandering to earn money.

Tyrion's relationships so far have gone down the social scale and he is the purchaser and consumer of what Littlefinger offers. So they are related but opposite figures. So who wants to use Hegalian dialectic to expand on this? ;)

[Lummel]

Since I seem to have adopted the fact checker role in these threads.

It was Varys, not Baelish. (Varys presumably wanted Selmy to join Dany; Baelish would not have had any motive.)

sorry - of course it was - I remember now from my chapter post where I said something along the lines that Varys was getting his pieces into place.

OK so we have a good reason for Tyrion to be suspicious of both Varys and Petyr Baelish.

[Elba the Intoner]

Well this has just been a morning of reading great posts! First Milady of York's fantastic post in the Pawn to Player thread and then these last few posts about Littlefinger. I'm really missing the like button! Lyanna, great post about Littlefinger and Axrendale, you have clearly thought this through 3 steps beyond anywhere I could have taken it. Kudos!

Ragnorak, the only thing I can think of regarding LF's choice of colors, purple and yellow, are that purple is considered a royal color and could be symbolic of him reaching for royal power, or power way above his station perhaps? And the yellow maybe is tied to the honey references about him in this chapter? Just throwing some thoughts out there.

A Wildling, thanks for clarifying about Selmy's dismissal. For me it comes back to that the main things Tywin was angry about - Selmy's dismissal (a Varys move) and Slynt's appointment to Harenhall (LF's - move) were made by the two men of the three who will not be removed by Tyrion's game here.

ETA - I forgot the biggest one for Twyin and Tyrion, Ned's beheading - we are getting lots of clues that LF was behind that too.

[Blisscraft]

My Goodness! Such brilliant posts! Lyanna, Lummel, Axredale, Ragnorak! I am surrounded by brilliance. I knew if I stuck with this website I'd learn more than R + L = J.

[Ragnorak]

Well this has just been a morning of reading great posts! First Milady of York's fantastic post in the Pawn to Player thread and then these last few posts about Littlefinger. I'm really missing the like button! Lyanna, great post about Littlefinger and Axrendale, you have clearly thought this through 3 steps beyond anywhere I could have taken it. Kudos!

Ragnorak, the only thing I can think of regarding LF's choice of colors, purple and yellow, are that purple is considered a royal color and could be symbolic of him reaching for royal power, or power way above his station perhaps? And the yellow maybe is tied to the honey references about him in this chapter? Just throwing some thoughts out there.

<snip>

Going with the cloak as a symbol of protection it mirrors LF being armored in gold as Tyrion observes, but I think the idea of LF being armored in honey has real potential. This is the man who tells Sansa the key is to know what a man wants. Unlike the Lannisters he doesn't wield his gold like power, but uses it as fuel for temptation. He really is that devil on your shoulder character trying to get you to sign that contract for your soul for some sweet poisoned fruit.

LF later notes Sansa's dress is "too Tully" so he is actually aware of the importance perceived in colors. In this case I think he's making the statement that he's no one's man, or that he can become anyone's man more than declaring himself for a particular Plum and Yellow House-- though I'd still bet there's a nugget of symbolism in those colors.

[Lyanna Stark]

Littlefinger is an interesting contrast to Tyrion.

They are both cunning trickster figures but Littlefinger is, is sociopathic too strong a word for him? Tyrion has at least Casterly Rock, family and as has been pointed out a capacity for genuine friendship and companionship.

They sure are interesting to compare, since on the surface, they seem similar.

I think Ragnorak made a good point here in that Tyrion, even when he does horrible things, normally has some sort of justification to himself. Whether that is enough or not, well, a lot of readers seem to take Tyrion's justifications at face value and it's definitely written in such a way as to make the reader feel as much sympathy as possible. However, Tyrion doesn't revel in violence for the sake of violence, and on a more personal level he has the capacity for as you point out genuine friendship and companionship. And despite his compass pointing to Casterly Rock, Tyrion's goal is not selfish gain through the destruction of others. Above all, Tyrion seems to want a happy life and to be loved.

Littlefinger, on the other hand, has no such capacity. He comes across as a person who would sacrifice his own mother to get ahead. He seems to somehow think that he has an attachment to Cat, and then to Sansa, but looking at how he treated both Cat and Sansa, it's with selfish disdain and the only person's feelings or goals her really cares about are his own. He is perfectly fine with making people suffer for his gain, even people who have never done anything to him, like Shireen or Jeyne Poole. Littlefinger also seems to care little for real, genuine feelings. These things belong to other people and through those, they can be played by him. I don't think sociopath is too strong a word for Petyr Baelish.

Tyrion may be a beast, but Littlefinger is a monster. In fact, the helm with the demon horns would suit LF better than Tyrion in this regard.