Rereading Tyrion III (ACOK)

[Winterfellian]

Great post Butterbumps!

About Tyrion's motivations to incarcerate Pycelle, I wonder if given his betrayal history Tyrion might consider the possibility of Pycelle equally betraying their cause as well as he had done with others in the past.

During the interrogation Tyrion asked him how many people had Pycelle betrayed and since when did he start. One thing that struck me is that Pycelle perhaps isn'tso much betraying in favor of House Lannister as much as he is deflecting from the losing side. The Targaryens, Jon Arryn, Ned Stark all have in common the fact that they were on the losing of a conflict against the Lannisters in one way or another. Therefore Pycelle's gravitation towards Tywin Lannister might be because he sees him as a guy who doesn't loose; a safe bet. I did noticed in this chapter that Tyrion is trying to convey the feeling that the Lannisters are on top of things

Also, a passage that caught my attention in this chapter is the following:

At sixteen he was cursed with all the certainty of youth, unleavened by any trace of humour or selfdoubt, and wed to the arrogance that came so naturally to those born blond and strong and handsome.

I think Tyrion gives us some glimpses of himself in this quote about Lancel. First there's the certainty of youth aspect when dealing with young men. For both Tywin and Tyrion this is something regarded as a negative trait. Tyrion remarked this same certainty on Jon when they traveled together and is relying (as Tywin did) on Robb's youth to make him blunder at the field. Neither pauses to think how can this certainty be a positive thing as well.

I think Tyrion's desdain for it is rooted in the fact that he never truly had this youth certainty as he wasn't, as the quote goes, born blond, strong or handsome unlike his brother Jaime. Tyrion's youth was probably marked by humour (directed at his person by himself as well of others on account of his dwarfism) and selft doubt. We know that Jaime was exactly the opposite and he is present in some of Tyrion's thoughts in this chapter connected to things that were denied to him; for example when he muses over the fact that Jaime might get to see the carefree and joyful side of Cersei when he, Tyrion, doesn't.

[butterbumps!]

Nice job as always butterbumps!

“Leave me out of your next deception.”

This could be one of the things that spurs LF to frame Tyrion for Joffrey's murder, and remove him from the game. LF knows that Tyrion is the only person who has some idea about how dangerous he is, and Tyrion's ploy proved to LF just how dangerous Tyrion can be to him.

I get that sense as well.

I don't share your ethical concerns here Butterbumps! I'm not sure if this is something cultural or just an age difference, brought up on escape from Colditz and the like I'm probably too used to the idea that it is the soldiers' duty to escape by whatsoever means possible. It seem rather cunning, although he should probably have included some prize winning rowers and sailors to have improved their chances of getting away from Riverrun. Although on the downside the lives of the Lannister soldiers included in the escort would probably have been forfeited had they succeed in getting away.

Yea, I do honestly get the soldier side of this. But I've always had trouble being "ok" with this plan from a decency perspective. I was really disappointed in Tyrion when I first read this, I remember. I had really wanted for him to start being "good" in the sense that I had thought he was trying to conduct himself in a more honorable way moving forward. I mean, I remember thinking that Tyrion might pursue a more "honorable" course as part of the way he distinguished his rule from that of his father, which I had thought he'd intimated wanting to do. I was really sad when this gesture of "goodwill" turned out to be a ploy, and felt pretty exalted when it eventually got shot to shit. I don't like the fact that it's a breach of peace/ neutrality as it pertains as well. In the same way that the Freys no longer have any capital behind their words, I feel that this move is potentially harmful to this end as well for Tyrion. It shows precisely how much a Lannister's words are worth.

[Lummel]

...One thing that struck me is that Pycelle perhaps isn'tso much betraying in favor of House Lannister as much as he is deflecting from the losing side. The Targaryens, Jon Arryn, Ned Stark all have in common the fact that they were on the losing of a conflict against the Lannisters in one way or another. Therefore Pycelle's gravitation towards Tywin Lannister might be because he sees him as a guy who doesn't loose; a safe bet.

yes I suppose so. When you play the game of thrones you either win or you you die. Well by that logic you always what to be on the winning side. In The Mystery Knight we see the punishment of a loosing house and you see that the punishment for loosing is so extreme that it's reasonable to squirm and squiggle just to make sure that you have at least a foot in the winner's camp.

Now does this mean that Pycelle has decided that Tyrion is going to be a looser in the end or was he just trying to keep in with both of them?

...Tyrion gives us some glimpses of himself in this quote about Lancel. First there's the certainty of youth aspect when dealing with young men. For both Tywin and Tyrion this is something regarded as a negative trait. Tyrion remarked this same certainty on Jon when they traveled together and is relying (as Tywin did) on Robb's youth to make him blunder at the field. Neither pauses to think how can this certainty be a positive thing as well.

I think Tyrion's desdain for it is rooted in the fact that he never truly had this youth certainty as he wasn't, as the quote goes, born blond, strong or handsome unlike his brother Jaime. Tyrion's youth was probably marked by humour (directed at his person by himself as well of others on account of his dwarfism) and selft doubt. We know that Jaime was exactly the opposite and he is present in some of Tyrion's thoughts in this chapter connected to things that were denied to him; for example when he muses over the fact that Jaime might get to see the carefree and joyful side of Cersei when he, Tyrion, doesn't.

It contrasts with Tyrion's description of himself: "He had been no more than an ugly boy at Casterly Rock when the city fell".

... I don't like the fact that it's a breach of peace/ neutrality as it pertains as well. In the same way that the Freys no longer have any capital behind their words, I feel that this move is potentially harmful to this end as well for Tyrion. It shows precisely how much a Lannister's words are worth.

yes you are right particularly as the bones of The Ned were sent as a sign of good faith. The escape attempt is a sign of no faith. Tyrion is showing that he will honour no conventions if they hinder his attempt to free Jaime.

Isn't this chapter a bit of a reverse fairy tale? The hideous dwarf with his barbarians bearding the wise old man and facing down the beautiful woman and her knightly protector?

[Blisscraft]

BB - Wonderful! (as usual) Sorry about the bad work week. :frown5: I hate it when that happens.

Need to reread before I comment further, but I really love your point about Dragonstone/Stannis. It does make him heir to the IT. I never thought of that. You clever, person!

ETA - Didn't want to double post.

About the beard - Lancel has a soft line of blond fuzz on his upper lip. The beginning of facial hair and masculinity. For the young man, like Lancel, it is a sign of burgeoning masculinity as opposed to the "grey beard" of Pycelle, masculinity in decline.

Martin toys with the "grey beard" aspect in Pycelle. Instead of being the old wise philosopher (pogonotrophos literally "man with a beard" in Greek means "philosopher") Pycelle is "caught with his pants down" and looks like an old fool. Also, the verb "to beard" means to confront and oppose with boldness or to defy. This definition of "to beard" works pretty well in this scene between Tyrion and Pycelle, as that is precisely what Tyrion is doing to Pycelle.

Another meaning of the noun, "a beard" is a slang term for one who stands in for another, especially to deceive. Beards are often a mark of deception and deceivers. There are "Bluebeards," and "Satan" style goatees. Beards can act as a mask on the face to hide emotion or identity. The loss of the beard reveals true identity as is the case here with Pycelle. The cutting/shaving off of Pycelle's beard is very like the taking of a defeated Dothraki's braid or certain Native American tribes' scalping their enemies. As such, it is a sign not only of defeat, but also punishment reflecting distain and scorn on the defeated as well as humiliation. It's a very nasty thing to do, like sowing salt in the earth or poisoning the water supply.

[Ragnorak]

Nicely done, Butterbeumps!

Did anyone else notice the irony of Tyrion and Cersei laughing about sibling infighting? The sibling rivalry is also underscored by Theon and Asha in the previous chapter. Granted the Lannister army isn't split on the battlefield but it isn't a harmless conflict either. Tyrion sends Cersei's guard away, probably to die. He eliminates Pycelle, who for all his faults is a Lannister lackey at his core. Pycelle has to go because he was a Cersei informant-- which given that she's Regent is technically part of his job. At the end of the chapter Tyrion is reflecting on how he's keeping LF and Varys (both plotting the downfall of House Lannister) and eliminating Pycelle who's the least dangerous.

It is interesting to note that he has a negative view of Pycelle's betrayal of Aerys even though it was in service to Tywin. That plays into the whole "justice" theme of Tyrion's time as Hand. He doesn't actually ask him about any ongoing plotting or current threats. He seems to throw Pycelle in the dungeon as punishment for his past crimes.

[Winter's Knight]

Blisscraft: so one may say that Pycelle was bearded by a lion in his den?

[Lummel]

BB - Wonderful! (as usual) Sorry about the bad work week. :frown5: I hate it when that happens.

Need to reread before I comment further, but I really love your point about Dragonstone/Stannis. It does make him heir to the IT. I never thought of that. You clever, person!

ETA - Didn't want to double post.

About the beard - Lancel has a soft line of blond fuzz on his upper lip. The beginning of facial hair and masculinity. For the young man, like Lancel, it is a sign of burgeoning masculinity as opposed to the "grey beard" of Pycelle, masculinity in decline...

I can see Tyrion turning up to the next small council meeting wearing Pycelle's beard as a trophy :laugh: Pycelle and Lancel balance each other nicely. The old fool and the young fool both with their lady loves.

Lancel singing "The seasons of my loves" links his fine romance to that of his cousin Tyrion. Not a lucky song it seems. All things have their season and this is another love affair that is doomed to a bitter end.

...Did anyone else notice the irony of Tyrion and Cersei laughing about sibling infighting? The sibling rivalry is also underscored by Theon and Asha in the previous chapter...

United we stand divided we fall sums up the role of family in westerosi politics quite nicely. The families that stick together and pool their strengths do well. I was rereading Cersei II from AFFC and you can see the whole Lannister clan just falling apart - is the Tyrion/Cersei rivalry the wedge that splits the family apart?

[Blisscraft]

Blisscraft: so one may say that Pycelle was bearded by a lion in his den?

Exactly!

[Ragnorak]

Love the beard stuff, especially WK's bearded by a lion in his den.

Regarding the ethics of Tyrion's scheme, I suspect the truth is closer to BB's take. It is generally recognized that a soldier has an obligation to escape, even under benevolent treatments such as the rules set forth by the Geneva Conventions. Westeros is different and so is Tyrion's scheme. Highborn captives in Westeros are placed in tower cells instead of dungeons because they give their words that they will not try and escape. The better treatment and limited freedom of movement are bought by choosing to forego escape attempts. This comes up specifically with Arya and the Northmen in Harrenhal IIRC.

The second part is the idea of a noble sacrifice. When prisoners choose to sacrifice their lives or something else to enable one of their fellow captives to escape this is admirable. Dalbridge chose to hold the pass against the Wildlings to allow the others time to escape. He wasn't tricked into it. Tyrion is tricking the Lannister guardsmen into sacrificing themselves to free Jaime. This isn't exactly a "Ned's Girl" loyalty moment for Jaime. Tyrion is violating the traditions of highborn captives here (and it earns Jaime a dungeon cell.) This isn't a Red Wedding violation but it isn't The Great Escape either. It is generally accepted that if you want your highborn captive back you pay the ransom. Tyrion has a daughter, a sword, Ned's bones, and more to offer. All in all it strikes me as a Lann the Clever ploy-- but also as a Lannister not paying his debts and a Tywin-lite moment given the Red Wedding. It is a brilliant move in his war on Cersei which brings us back to sibling rivalry.

The Freys are frought with infighting, but in the epilogue of ASoS Merrett gives us some insight into that family dynamic. Old Walder had the sense to drive home "family" as a value to Stevron but the rest of his numerous heirs are as likely to turn on each other as Tyrion and Cersei. The Starks and Martells seem to maintain family as a value while also carrying their father's legacy into the next generation. Neither Tyrion or Jaime seems to value the legacy goals Tywin has spent his life's work on despite emulating their father in many ways. Only Cersei truly covets the throne as her life's goal the way Tywin did. I think we have a difference in "family values" and "family goals." Maybe there's a better distinction. Clearly the Lannister siblings do not see supporting Tywin's agenda as more valuable than infighting or more in line with their own self interests.

[Lummel]

--received news from New York that Butterbumps! is ok but didn't have power due to an electrical sub-station explosion--

Tyrion VII ACOK

Overview

This is a chapter as short as its hero. Pod disturbs Tyrion during the night while he is working (either reading Varys' reports or Lord Baelish's accounts) telling him that Lancel has arrived. Lancel has orders from Cersei to have Pycelle released from the Black cells and Bywater punished. Tyrion confronts him with his role in King Bob's death and uses that as leverage to turn him into a double agent. Feeling pleased with his work Tyrion rides to Chataya's and then on to the manse where Shae is kept. He has intimate relations with her and then reflects how he loves playing the game of thrones.

Observations

• “Ser Lancel was sixteen, and not known for his patience” - similar tactic to Tyrion V ACOK “The longer Cersei waits, the angrier she'll become, and anger makes her stupid.” (and I suppose with the blacksmiths in Tyrion III ACOK too – keep them waiting, show them who the boss is). And it seems that Cersei is not the only one with a taste for mummery in the family.
  
• “Sleep is good...and books are better.” Reading keeps Tyrion up through the night (shades of Tyrion I here) but reading holds the promise of a better use of time for Alayaya.
  
• “They encountered no one but a lone old crone, carrying a dead cat by the tail. She gave them a fearful look, as if she was afraid they might try to steal her dinner” - the world of the Red Keep is a very privileged one.
  

Analysis

Family Love

And with prefect timing this chapter picks up on Ragnorak's comments. But firstly I must confess that I have difficulty in keeping a straight face over Lancel's predicament because I imagine a bedroom scene in which Cersei explains tenderly to Lancel that his seed must fall on stony ground with the soft candle light on their faces and a

in the background. But despite the best efforts of my imagination I must admit that Lancel is cruelly used here by both Cersei and Tyrion. Even if we don't agree with Tyrion's analysis that either Cersei or Jaime would kill him he's clearly in a dangerous position. Small wonder given Tyrion's words “you'll have a lordship from me before you're done” that we see him transformed into such a penitent figure as Lord of Darry in AFFC. These gifts are poisoned. Did Tywin expect that his kin would be eaten up in this way when he started Lancel off in the game as a squire to King Bob?

Tywin instruction to Tyrion to rule in Kings Landing (Tyrion IX) has turned out to be a struggle between Tyrion and Cersei for power. Lancel is a new battleground. In this fight Lannisters and ultimately Lannister interests are the casualties as we see by turn in ASOS, AFFC and ADWD. How far we are from “You know how much I love my family” in Tyrion I. How far they are from The Ned's words of advice to Arya

“When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives. Summer is the time for squabbles. In winter, we must protect one another, keep each other warm, share our strengths”

ACOK began with the arrival of Autumn. Time has run out for intra-family squabbles.

As an endnote the shared drink is again not convivial.

Playing the game and the justice theme

“It is real, all of it, he thought, the wars, the intrigues, the great bloody game, and me in the centre of it...me, the dwarf, the monster, the one they scorned and laughed at, but now I hold it all, the power, the city, the girl. This was what I was made for, and gods forgive me, but I do love it...”

(compare that with “Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark. And you. A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of all.” (ADWD hardback p436) )

Tyrion reflected on the men who had been Hand before him, who had proved no match for his sister's wiles. How could they be? Men like that...too honest to live, too noble to shit, Cersei devours such fools every morning when she breaks her fast. The only way to defeat my sister is to play her own game, and that was something the Lords Stark and Arryn would never do. Small wonder that both of them were dead, while Tyrion Lannister had never felt more alive. His stunted legs might make him a comic grotesque at a harvest ball, but this dance he knew.

This is another chapter like Tyrion IV. Tyrion really enjoys himself and everything seems to be going his way. Two things to put in the balance against this. Firstly Tywin sent him to King's Landing to rule. To curb the follies of Joffrey's rule. How far does fighting it out with Cersei contribute towards that objective or is the intra-Lannister power struggle as dangerous if not as visible as the Baratheon one? Secondly his success here both in having the information to blackmail Lancel with and in keeping his private life a secret is down to Varys. We see Tyrion read's reports from Varys. What is Varys choosing to let him know about? Is Varys feeding Tyrion information to keep him fighting Cersei and to mistrust her? United they stand, divided they fall. Divide and conquer...

Tyrion isn't serving Justice here, he is abusing her. By rights shouldn't Lancel be tried and punished ? If Tyrion is playing the game against Cersei and using her methods then can the results be legitimately thought of as Justice at all?

'Tis a pity she's a whore

Not Cersei and Jaime and Lancel and Tyrion, but is this the strangest moment of the chapter? “I'm free of Tysha now”. It certainly doesn't seem to be true. Only moments before he thought that he could almost hear her. He calls her a sweet innocent that his brother had hired to sleep with him – what then does he imagine that Shae is? Of course glancing ahead we know that Tysha remains on his mind. Perhaps this is just the halo effect of a great meeting with Lancel, very productive, but this is a clear instance when Tyrion is an unreliable narrator and clearly deluding himself.

At one level she is his hired sexual companion. But ensuring that she is guarded by the “preferably impotent...Men who prefer boys. Or men who prefer sheep, for that matter” suggests that he doesn't trust in the arrangement for sexual exclusivity he has made with her. And what is that all about if not a wish to reproduce his marriage with Tysha?

At the same time she is not just a sexual companion. In Tyrion VI ACOK he thinks to himself ”A pity Shae could not be here to see this”. It is not just that Shae wants to come to court, Tyrion wants her to see him in his full power and glory. Even though she'll call him her giant of Lannister in any case since that is what he likes even without seeing him on the Iron Throne. I have the feeling that he's hired her to play a part but won't give her the script.

[Blisscraft]

Lummel - thank you for the wonderful post. Also, thank you for news about BB.

[Lummel]

Thank you, hopefully Butterbumps! will forgive me for sharing that news. No doubt she'd have preferred just to turn up like Renly's shade at the Battle of the Blackwater.

I'm a bit puzzled by the chapter. I was looking out for imagery but couldn't spot anything. Claiming that the old crone represented The Crone seemed far too forced (yes even for me). Maybe this has something to do with GRRM's writing style. I read somewhere that he'll write a couple of chapters for a POV, then stop and write a different POV. This chapter seems very close to Tyrion VI to me. The drinking to brotherly love flows so naturally into Tyrion drinking with Lancel. No love lost between either the Baratheon or Lannister siblings.

[Lyanna Stark]

Yes, stay safe butterbumps! and may your power come back soon.

As Lummel has prodded me to stop my slacking, I made some notes on this Tyrion chapter.

Dysfunctional relationships 1 & 2

What strikes me is that it deals mainly with two dysfunctional "romantic" relationships between supposed lovers. We have Cersei and Lancel being dealt with in the beginning, and then Tyrion and Shae. In both relationships, the Lannister major has the power and was the initiator. (Lancel being a Lannister minor, to borrow shamelessly from latin). They have the higher position, the real power to continue or end the relationship (both Lancel and Shae are in situations where they depend on the Lannister majors to support them in one way or another, hence a position of dependance).

What also comes to the forefront in this chapter, I think, is that Cersei and then Tyrion are really using Lancel badly. Lancel is but 16, and while he is highborn and rather cocky, he does not deserve the fate Tyrion is extrapolating for him here. He's coldly betting on that Cersei will kill Lancel before Jaime will. What seems certain is that Lancel will not survive. Callous thinking about a 16 year old relative. Lancel has technically the same relationship status with Tyrion as Jon Snow has to the Stark children and that Sansa has to Sweetrobin, for instance. Like Lummel points out above, autumn has come, the families ought to stick together, but Tyrion and Cersei are fighting it out, and they are totally willing to sacrifice another family member to win, making Lancel the battleground (Lancel as a human metaphor for the Riverlands, where he ends up as Lord? Ravaged by warfare?)

Onwards to Shae then, where we again are presented with the issues with Tyrion's supposed romantic relationship with her (regardless of the stuff stated above, which is more meta analysis).

Firstly, we have him thinking about Tysha, singing Tysha's song, although he realises after a while it's not the same tune. So he started singing Tysha's song without actually hearing it, meaning Tysha, her singing and his marriage to her are all still on his mind very much. He thinks he doesn't need her anymore, that he has replaced her with Shae, but it really feels that this is all Shae is: a replacement for Tysha. He still needs Tysha, and he's still trying to have Tysha, by trying to have Shae fill her role.

Secondly, we have Tyrion's difficulty with the whore vs madonna complex. He was tricked into thinking Tysha was "innocent", while she was really a whore. He also comments on Shae:

How could a whore look so clean and sweet and innocent, he wondered?

Which then means that whores are the opposite of clean, sweet and innocent? Dirty, foul and full of sin? Fallen women, in other words.

But only a paragraph later, after he had surprise sex in the style of Julian Assange with Shae, he confesses to loving her.

This was what I was made for, and gods frogive me, but I do love it....And her. And her.

So clearly, despite thinking how dirty, foul and depraved whores are, he still confesses to loving Shae. Although from what we see from the Tysha section, he is using Shae as a pure Tysha replacement. Much in the same way that Cersei is using Lancel as a Jaime replacement. Tyrion's exact words on the Cersei - Lancel affair are:

...even a poor copy of Jaime is sweeter than an empty bed, I suppose.

Well, he should know, since he's busy substituting Tysha with Shae. And like Cersei, he is keen on keeping it a secret. I don't think it's possible to read this chapter without seeing the strong paralells between Cersei - Lancel and Tyrion - Shae.

Cersei vs Littlefinger:

Tyrion makes an erronous comment in this chapter about how the previous Hands got outplayed by Cersei. He thinks she eats men like Ned Stark and Jon Arryn for breakfast, while we know that the one who outplayed these two was not in fact Cersei, but Littlefinger. He got Cersei the Goldcloaks, he was likely behind neheading Ned Stark, he was behind poisoning Jon Arryn. That was not Cersei. It seems Littlefinger has managed not only to sow discord and chaos across Westeros, but also within House Lannister.

[Winter's Knight]

Yes, stay safe butterbumps! and may your power come back soon.

As Lummel has prodded me to stop my slacking, I made some notes on this Tyrion chapter.

Dysfunctional relationships 1 & 2

What strikes me is that it deals mainly with two dysfunctional "romantic" relationships between supposed lovers. We have Cersei and Lancel being dealt with in the beginning, and then Tyrion and Shae. In both relationships, the Lannister major has the power and was the initiator. (Lancel being a Lannister minor, to borrow shamelessly from latin). They have the higher position, the real power to continue or end the relationship (both Lancel and Shae are in situations where they depend on the Lannister majors to support them in one way or another, hence a position of dependance).

What also comes to the forefront in this chapter, I think, is that Cersei and then Tyrion are really using Lancel badly. Lancel is but 16, and while he is highborn and rather cocky, he does not deserve the fate Tyrion is extrapolating for him here. He's coldly betting on that Cersei will kill Lancel before Jaime will. What seems certain is that Lancel will not survive. Callous thinking about a 16 year old relative. Lancel has technically the same relationship status with Tyrion as Jon Snow has to the Stark children and that Sansa has to Sweetrobin, for instance. Like Lummel points out above, autumn has come, the families ought to stick together, but Tyrion and Cersei are fighting it out, and they are totally willing to sacrifice another family member to win, making Lancel the battleground (Lancel as a human metaphor for the Riverlands, where he ends up as Lord? Ravaged by warfare?)

Both Lancel and Shae are placeholders/substitutes-Lancel for Jaime and Shae for Tysha.

[Lyanna Stark]

Both Lancel and Shae are placeholders/substitutes-Lancel for Jaime and Shae for Tysha.

Indeed. And the placeholders are themselves substitutes for possibly somewhat dysfunctional relationships, or at least illicit relationships that were/are not politically acceptable. So you have two illicit and dysfunctional relationships substituted with two other illicit and dysfunctional relationships, in essence. Only Tyrion due to having Varys play more to his side of things is able to exploit Cersei's substitute here, and Cersei tries to do the same later with Alayaya.

[Lummel]

I like the parallel. Those are both selfish relationships for the Lannister Major in that the minor character carries the risk. Lancel as a borderland warred over by everybody seems particularly apt. No wonder he wasn't up for laying back and thinking of Darry.

The littlefinger point is interesting too, and the key politically (apart from Assange being a one thrust guy). Despite this business of the dagger Tyrion does seem fixated on his sister. Not a surprise since Jaime is also fixated on her, but Tyrion is not, apparently fixated in the incestuous way of 'Tis a pity she's a whore but as a political rival.

That brings me back to my earlier (and thoroughly unloved :crying: ) idea of Tyrion and Cersei as jealous rivals for Jaime's love. Lets give that a twist. We know that the Lannister family dynamic is pretty unhealthy, is the political rivalry between Tyrion and Cersei just a manifestation of their personal rivalry for affection or approval from Tywin? Anybody want to break open the Freud(or maybe a bit of Jung) and probe at that family set up?

ETA - aye, thinking about that Tyrion - Cersei parallel. Some of you may have spotted that Cersei reread that Loras started. I've reread her first two chapters and I do wonder if we over estimate Tyrion because of how he presents himself and how we see him in other POVs and under estimate Cersei for the same reasons. Objectively is the difference so great? Tyrion is better read, slightly more reflective, enjoys himself more and is more able to be a friend, but otherwise don't they both get played because they over estimate their own abilities?

[Little Wing]

Daddy issues (seeking approval) are strong both in Tyrion and Cersei, not so much with Jaime, so I find your idea interesting, Lummel. Cersei is the one mostly obsessed with seeking approval/being Tywin (or actually better than Tywin). In this respect, she would definitely hate Tyrion even more ferociously, seeing how much Tywin has intrusted in Tyrion. And Jaime loves Tyrion, another point of frustration mayhaps for her, seeing how Jaime is faithful and like her in everything but that.

ETA: In answer to your edit - I agree, but Tywin showing up at the Blackwater and the belittlement (no pun intended) of Tyrions actions prior and during the battle is bad luck more than Tyrion over estimating himself I think :dunno:

[Ragnorak]

Excellent write up, Lummel.

One line that jumped out at me was:

Perhaps that is the secret. It is not what we do, so much as why we do it. Somehow that thought comforted him.

This is essentially at the heart of our Tyrion morality debate. The fact that Martin has Tyrion reflect specifically on the difference betweeen his internal dynamic and his actions tells me that the grey moral swamp is intentional. It is also curious that he has these thoughts specifically about a whore and religion.

On my first read the notion of Tyrion doing "justice" rang largely true. Cersei was the perceived villain and all his actions are primarily against her. He punishes Pycelle not just for informing to Cersei but for his past actions such as lying to Aerys about opening the gates which got Rhaegar's children murdered. At this point on a first read we are still trying to piece the puzzle together and, as readers, we want justice for Ned's beheading. Tyrion's position as Hand parallel's Ned's. His concern for his own survival recalls Ned. His actions in Kings Landing also have a significant focus on Ned's murder as well as Jon Arryn's and Robert's. As readers we want to know who is responsible and Tyrion's investigations reveal most of our major clues up to this point. This has a very powerful sympathy effect.

Knowing far more of the truth really changes the feel of his time as Hand. Ned was being manipulated by LF and Varys just like Tyrion is. Ned was brought in by Robert to rule but Cersei's influence undermined Robert's support for Ned at the very task he was asked to perform. Tyrion is in much the same situation. He is asked to rule but undermined by the Regent. This undermining is the very thing that enables LF and Varys to plot so successfully. Ned had identified the problem, envisioned an endstate, and had an exit strategy-- no heir due to twincest, crown Stannis, go home. All of the current LF and Varys schemes would be undone by a crowned Stannis. That Varys feared Ned but wholly engages Tyrion says a great deal.

Tyrion doesn't have any of these potential solutions. His only means of "beating" Cersei is to have her father marry her off or send her back to the Rock. We know Tywin will never recognize Tyrion regardless of how competent he proves himself. Varys floated the Tommen as King idea by Tyrion but he didn't seize on it. He has no solution for Cersei or Joffrey. Tyrion has no endgame, no exit strategy, and doesn't even have a real problem identified beyond short term survival and limiting Cersei's interference. For all his brilliant plotting and manuevering, Tyrion is actually worse off than Ned in terms of prospects for success. If Tywin succeeds in the field all of Tyrion's work will be undone. If Tywin fails it will be even worse. Tyrion's success against Cersei is really only benefitting LF and Varys, the two enemies under his nose (and to a lesser extent Tywin in that KL has not imploded in utter folly.)

I think the justice Tyrion truly craves involves Tysha. The problem is that he can't reconcile the belief that she was a whore who lied to and manipulated him with the feelings and happiness he experienced that he wants to resurrect. The conflict with Cersei and thoughts of Jaime and Cersei seems to lead him to want to see Shae. The Lannister family conflict always seems to make him want to drink or find some escapism with Shae-- even when he feels he's winning. Lancel singing Tysha's song to Cersei last chapter reinforces this parallel and Tyrion mishearing Tysha's song on his way to Shae reveals how she still dominates his subconscious. He is also mistaking the song for Tysha's in a very similar way to his mistaking Shae for Tysha.

Lyanna's parallel of Shae and Lancel as Tysha/Jaime substitutes strikes me as dead on. Tyrion uses Lancel against Cersei just like she'll eventually use "Shae" against him. Lancel will eventually betray Cersei just as Shae will betray Tyrion. Tyrion reflects on how he is now the tall and powerful one while at the same time wishing he could place his own loyal guards in Shae's manse. All his power still flows from Tywin.

This line reminded me of his initial conversation recruiting Bronn.

He had more faith in their iron loyalties and sense of honor than in the greed of sellswords.

This is in direct conflict with the reasoning he employed with Bronn, specifically with regard to gold and honor discussing Bronn seeking service with the Starks.

What is also interesting is that these mountain clans are First Men which recalls all of the Stark/Tyrion connections at the beginning of GoT. Later we learn about how Stannis can recruit the mountain clans simply by sharing a meal with them (like Ned used to do) which is another big Tyrion theme. These clansmen also stand out because they are the one powerbase Tyrion possesses that is actually independent of Tywin.

Last observation: Why was Lancel in Targaryen colors?

[Lyanna Stark]

This is essentially at the heart of our Tyrion morality debate. The fact that Martin has Tyrion reflect specifically on the difference betweeen his internal dynamic and his actions tells me that the grey moral swamp is intentional. It is also curious that he has these thoughts specifically about a whore and religion.

<snip>

I agree, it jumped out at me as well. I was hoping someone else would bring it up since I didn't really have a coherent theory on it, more scattered comments. Thanks for the great work and thoughtfulness added Ragnorak. :)

Last observation: Why was Lancel in Targaryen colors?

Good point. I noted mostly the red for Lannister (crimson). Maybe this is the symbology Lummel was looking for? Targaryens as a battlefield for various interests, just like Lancel is here. (Daenerys, Rhaegar, Rhaegar's children ended up sacrificed in various ways for the "Targaryen cause" and infighting.)

[Winterfellian]

Lummel, thanks for the great post and for letting us know that butterbumps! is ok.

About the Lancel thing, I agree that it is certainly very unfair on the poor guy (although I admit that his later treatment of Sansa makes me feel less sorry for him). Both Cercei and Tyrion are using them for their own purposes. I wonder if the following quote Tyrion provides his own defense for this and other of his actions.

Perhaps that is the secret. Is not what we do so much as what we do it

Tyrion is reflecting on Chataya's views of prostitution when the quote above striked him. I think that for a person with the amount of power that Tyrion is commanding this can be a dangerous train of thought because it can lead him to downplay many of his worst actions with the excuse that he's doing them for the right cause (as is the case with many of his reprehensible acts). The Lancel situation is an example of this.

Tyrion obviously believes that Lancel is being used by Cersei as her Jaime replacement but dismisses the use he's giving Lancel himself. I think it is easy for him to think less of it since "is for the good of the realm" as he told Lancel. The thing is that Tyrion seems to actually believe this. He doesn't view his quarrels with Cersei as petty fights over power but he genuinely believes that keeping Cersei from power (by poisoning her, incarcerating her informants, etc) while he, Tyrion, stays on top is actually for the good of the realm. So while Cersei is evil by using Lancel for her own pleasures, Tyrion is using him for a good cause and therefore is not on the same level of evil as his sister.

ETA: I just noticed that Ragnorak beat me to a similar observation while I was posting