Rereading Tyrion III (ACOK)

[anonymouseuser]

I'd guess that the bolded part is the key. Tyrion was looking to establish for certainty that Littlefinger really is a lone wolf player, and that he isn't in cahoots with anyone, least of all the Queen.

Good point, although it is worth remembering that at this point, Tyrion has another motive for wanting to trick Littlefinger: petty revenge. Tyrion is still smarting from the trick that Baelish played with the dagger, and while he knows that he can't actually move against the Master of Coin, he decides to give him him a rap on the knuckles - I can play tricks on you too - at the same time that he gives him a loyalty test. In the end this backfires of course, though we won't see the full implications of it for some time to come.

Can I just say how impressed I am at your grasp of the strategic side of things. I thought I had a handle of the sneakiness that is Tyrion, but you have given me a whole new perspective to think about. Well done. I really wouldn't like to play the Game of Thrones with you.

[Axrendale]

Can I just say how impressed I am at your grasp of the strategic side of things. I thought I had a handle of the sneakiness that is Tyrion, but you have given me a whole new perspective to think about. Well done. I really wouldn't like to play the Game of Thrones with you.

Thank you for the compliment. :)

You win... or you die. ;)

[Blisscraft]

Just a little FYI on the color purple or plum. In Rome, the most highly prized purple was called "Tyrian" purple. Apparently, the dye was made from a type of sea snail and at one point, by law, the only persons permitted to wear it were the Caesars.

[Punchslap]

Just a little FYI on the color purple or plum. In Rome, the most highly prized purple was called "Tyrian" purple. Apparently, the dye was made from a type of sea snail and at one point, by law, the only persons permitted to wear it were the Caesars.

In case it isn't obvious, "Tyrian" refers to the Phoenician city of Tyre.

[Datepalm]

I wonder if that an unconcious (or concious) influence on the Lannister naming schemes. They've got that Ty- element, which is a more consistent element than we get in any other house (except maybe the Targs, and their names may stand out just because they're rooted in another language, while the Lann's have no such excuse.)

While i'm at it, anyone want to speculate on why Tywin (and, well, GRRM) gave Tyrion a distinctly Lannister name, unlike Jaime and Cersei? (except for the fact it would be terrible to have three major character names Tyrion, Tyjem and Tyrcei, though some of Tywins brothers do have Ty names too.)

[Winter's Knight]

While i'm at it, anyone want to speculate on why Tywin (and, well, GRRM) gave Tyrion a distinctly Lannister name, unlike Jaime and Cersei? (except for the fact it would be terrible to have three major character names Tyrion, Tyjem and Tyrcei, though some of Tywins brothers do have Ty names too.)

Jaime and Cersei were the first born, beautiful and healthy-I'm guessing Tywin and Joanna spent more effort in naming them. Tyrion was born deformed and his mother died in the process-his father may have just grabbed the first name that struck him.

[Lummel]

Jaime and Cersei seem to be fairly unusual names. Tyrion apparently has some pedigree, I believe Cersei refers to it as the name of kings (presumably of the Rock). It seems odd then that Tyrion gets the true Lannister name of ancient kings when he's the dwarf child that killed his own mother if you what to be sensational about it. Normally I'd expect the eldest son and heir to get the conventional name, the younger son to get the weird unusual name. But here that's reversed.

Perhaps Jaime and Cersei reflect Tywin's confidence in creating new traditions and a bold new direction for House Lannister? Maybe the names were all chosen by Joanna?

There might be a Tyre connection, Datepalm in the 'Ty' names. The purple association suggests extravagant wealth, Tyre was a port city that was iirc difficult for Alexander the Great to capture - rather like the Rock is meant to be in Westeros. Although I do think it is an obscure reference. But the naming convention seems strong. We also get a Tytos, a Tyrek and a Tygett.

[Blisscraft]

Datepalm, WInter's Knight, and Lummel - I've often thought the same thing about the differences between the "twins" and Tryion. It's stuck out like a sore thumb. Jaime and Cersei aren't even like most twin names that I'm accostomed to hearing. Usually, twin names are something like Luke and Laura or John and Jane or David and Deborah, even with fraternal twins there is a "matching" quality. Not in this story.

As for the "Tyrian" purple, I found it amusing since we've spent some time discussing plums and purples recently. I have no idea if it's an accident or not with reference to Tryion's name or origins (another failed attempt at humor, I suppose). :bawl:

[Ragnorak]

Really like the Tyrian Purple. WK, thanks for the Lotus references.

[Ragnorak]

Tyrion V (ACOK)

Summary

Tyrion is visiting the Alchemists to inspect their wildfyre operation. The Alchemists who have fallen out of favor in deference to the Maesters of the Citadel are clearly honored by Tyrion's visit and show him every respect. Tyrion's thoughts on the history of the Alchemists lead him to recall the Mad King and he makes some unflattering connections with Joffrey. After emerging from the underground Alchemist vaults he unexpectedly finds Bronn waiting with his escort of Burned Men. Bronn delivers a message that both Cersei and Ser Jacelyn want him. Tyrion chooses to see Jacelyn first and make Cersei wait. Bronn notes that Cersei won't like that, but Tyrion says her prefers he angry and stupid rather than composed and cunning.

Cleos Frey has arrived carrying Robb Stark's peace terms. Tyrion assesses the military situation and orders the Stark escort well cared for but orders that they not be allowed to take measure of the poor state of Kings Landing. He also gives prudent orders to Bywater about practicing with paint filled clay pots ahead of using live wildfyre. On his way back to the Keep he runs across a Begging Brother preaching of doom and pointing to the comet. We learn that both Stannis's accusations and the Lannister counter lie involving Shireen have taken root with teh smallfolk. We are also introduced to Tyrion's nickname among the smallfolk "twisted little monkey demon."

He finds Cersei waiting in his solar upon his return. Tyrion's plan from last chapter has hatched and Cersei is livid. Pycelle seems to be the one who stumbled into the web. Cersei unleashes venom on Tyrion over Myrcella being sent away and he (mostly) responds with reason. When Tyrion makes the argument that Myrcella will be safer in Dorne, Cersei breaks down crying. Tyrion tries to comfort her but she recoils. He explains their father's strategy as he sees it which almost appeases her but fails so he reveals Robb's peace offering as proof of his prior words. Tyrion is satisfied that he has won her consent for sending Myrcella away and is especially pleased at having his proof against Pycelle.

Observations

We have more references to the hills of Rhaenys and Visenya. Recall Tyrion's narrow view from the Broken Anvil.

They were somewhere under the hill of Rhaenys, behind the Guildhall of the Alchemists.

They emerged atop the broad curving steps that fronted on the Street of the Sisters, near the foot of Visenya’s Hill.

The Alchemists are in Targaryen colors.

Again...

That was the way of war. The smallfolk were slaughtered, while the highborn were held for ransom. Remind me to thank the gods that I was born a Lannister.

We have more fruit symbolism, especially with the wildfyre.

It was round and ruddy, a fat clay grapefruit.

“There is a vault below this one where we store the older pots. Those from King Aerys’s day. It was his fancy to have the jars made in the shapes of fruits. Very perilous fruits indeed, my lord Hand, and, hmmm, riper now than ever, if you take my meaning.

“These, ah, fruits of the late King Aerys, can they still be used?”

That count includes four thousand jars from King Aerys’s day, to be sure.”

“Our overripe fruits?”

Hallyne bobbed his head

Also another plum reference.

And certain knowledge of an informer too… well, that was the plum in his pudding.

This reminded me of his dressing warmly advice on his trip to the Wall.

They had warned him to dress warmly. Tyrion Lannister took them at their word.

That time he brought his warmest clothes and they proved insufficient. He took a bearskin cloak Benjen offered then. Now he has his own shadowskin cloak. Tyrion is making progress.

His reflections on Joffrey are rather unflattering to say the least.

King Aerys used you to roast the flesh off his enemies. His brother Jaime had told him a few stories of the Mad King and his pet pyromancers. “Joffrey will be interested as well, I have no doubt.” Which is why I’d best keep him well away from you.

“His Grace has prohibited all feasting until such time as the war is won.” At my insistence. “The king does not think it fitting to banquet on choice food while his people go without bread.”

“I will take it up with my sister.” Tyrion had no objection to a few magic tricks, but Joff’s fondness for making men fight to the death was trial enough; he had no intention of allowing the boy to taste the possibilities of burning them alive.

Only three nights past, another mob had gathered at the gates of the Red Keep, chanting for food. Joff had unleashed a storm of arrows against them, slaying four, and then shouted down that they had his leave to eat their dead. Winning us still more friends.

The choice of Thorne may have proved more harmful to the Nights Watch than we realized.

there was no lack of men willing to join the City Watch for a full belly and a bed of straw in the barracks, but Tyrion had no illusions about how well these ragged defenders of theirs would fight if it came to battle.

I would certainly think Tyrion would be very willingly to dispose of some hungry mouths from Kings Landing. These men will eventually be denied the opportunity to go the Wall by Tywin who chooses to break their legs and make them begging examples instead.

Analysis

This chapter provides a good perspective of Tyrion as a leader and administrator. He knows bannermen make boasts and come up well short so he inspects the wildfyre situation himself. The Alchemists annoy him yet he still shows them respect and heeds their counsel instead of being dismissive as we see in many highborn lords (the GoT prologue comes to mind.) In some ways the foolish appearance of a ball of fur is actually respectful because it conveys that he takes their advice. His notion of practicing with paint and then oil filled clay pots is wise and prudent. He takes the pragmatic step to prevent the Stark escort from seeing the conditions in Kings Landing. For the most part he accepts the "hard truths" his task confronts him with such as the limits of the new Gold Cloaks or

“Nor I, but I use what I’m given.”

Cersei would be displeased to learn that he had intercepted Stark’s letter, but his father had sent him here to rule, not to please Cersei.

We also see that he applies a good deal of analytical thought to the big picture. He sees (inaccurately in this case) the implications of the Stark peace offer. He has no more information than Cersei but he's looked at a map to figure out what is really going on. The primary flaw I see in his reasoning comes mostly with his assessment of Robb. He fails to consider how a Stark and his honor might influence this peace offer or how a boy leader might make the offer his mother wants to appease her. He doesn't account for the Greyjoys despite knowing about Theon or consider that the Starks might be gathering fresh levies as well. Renly is marching on Kings Landing and Robb could easily wait until Tywin is forced to march to meet Renly and then take him in the rear. Tyrion is looking at this as two distinct wars that need to be fought with the same resources but never considers that Stannis, Renly or Robb might unite. Tywin underestimated Robb because he was a boy. Tyrion is at least using the peace offering and his idle status as evidence but he too underestimates Robb all the same. His assessment of the current field to Cersei as Tywin sees it is probably dead on-- except the part where Tywin expects Stannis to crush Tyrion as he holds the left.

I think Cersei's breakdown in front of Tyrion is probably her single most sympathetic moment in the series. She wants to protect her children and Tyrion confronting her with the choice to protect Myrcella from Cersei's own marriage fate or the threat facing Kings Landing is what makes her break down. Cersei has claimed that tears are a woman's weapon but I don't see this as the case at all here. She is in dire fear for her children. Personally, any sympathy I would feel for Cersei here is completely undermined by her treatment of Sansa. Tyrion even says Myrcella will be better treated by Doran than Sansa is by her and Joffrey. That line and his instinct to reach out and comfort Cersei go along way to reinforcing Tyrion's sympathetic portrayal. Despite my lack of sympathy for Cersei here, I do think it is intended to convey a more sympathetic picture of Cersei-- possibly the first real one in the series. Whether this sympathetic portrayal is so that readers identify with Tyrion's empathy or if this is more about Cersei is probably worthy of some discussion. We have no food, no Shae, no Varys, no real personal relationship exchanges which serves to really emphasize this exchange with Cersei.

Tyrion also seems to control his temper fairly well here. Even after being called a "twisted little monkey demon" he reacts based on his concern for the crowd's reaction not the insult to his person. He chooses pragmatic warmth over Lannister floppy ears and trappings even to the point of looking foolish. The negative emotional reaction that stands out most is his exchange with Cersei, but even there he thinks it best not to fuel the fire and controls himself. I found the lack of Tyrion grey coinciding with the lack of personal issues telling.

As a final note I find it interesting that the Begging Brothers are introduced as the guys holding "The World Will End Wednesday" signs. Eventually we get the Quiet Isle, Septon Meribald, the new High Septon and one of our clearest portrayals of the plight of the smallfolk through these people. Septon Meribald in particular is such a wonderful character whose personal history is largely implied through his brilliant broken man speech. It is so strikingly different than our introduction to the Begging Brothers.

[Elba the Intoner]

With regard to the names of Jaime, Cersei and Tyrion, do I dare suggest the crackpot reason for it?

It's a hint that Jaime and Cersei are not Lannisters through their father's side (sorry - couldn't resist :devil: )

[Lummel]

Why not Elba - be out and proud with your crackpottery!

:thumbsup: Ragnorak, before I reread the chapter I'm wondering if there is R'hllorista connection between the preacher in this chapter and Master Salloreon in the previous in addition to the demon link, just a loose speculation given that Salloreon is later accused of being an Antler Man and the preacher appeals to the Red Star (red star at night - communists delight :commie: )

[Blisscraft]

Did I miss a chapter?

OOPS! My bad. . .

[Lummel]

I like that the preacher in the book has picked up on my earlier mention of corruption ;) and for sure the country is going to be scourged by at least a couple of horsemen of the apocalypse - but I found it interesting that he picked up on incest as a particular complaint seeing as the Targaryen's were famous inbreeders. But never mind. Has Littlefingers plan backfired - or was that a part of his plan from the start - because the preacher mentions both the bed the fool to produce a monster and the incest stories. The overall effect is a plague on all their houses.

Neat contrast between the fool fathering monsters and the monster reflecting on the witticism of the Fool with regard to the High Septon - honouring the gods by each a meal for each of them. Several of the monsters in the series could be described as having a fool for a father I think.

What about the tyrion-Cersei exchange? I agree this is Cersei the sympathetic and what a contrast to Catelyn I think in her views on marriage. Is this a reflection of personality and upbringing, Catelyn the political and pragmatic versus Cersei the idealistic, or a reflection of their marital histories?

Myrcella is my only daughter. Did you imagine that I would allow you to sell her like a bag of oats?"...

"Hardly a bag of oats. Myrcella is a princess. Some would say this is what she was born for. Or did you plan to marry her to Tommen?"...

"I say that Myrcella will not be shipped off to this Dornishman the way I was shipped to Robert Baratheon."

There you go. Westeros, a kingdom created by war and dragonfire but bound together through marriage.

[Silverin]

Back to the name, to me the names with Tyr, but especially Tyrion's name always reminded me of the world tyrant.

From wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrant

The English noun tyrant appears in Middle English use, via Old French, from the 1290s. The word derives from Latin tyrannus, meaning "illegitimate ruler", and this in turn from the Greek τύραννος "monarch, ruler of a polis". The final -t arises in Old French by association with the present participles in -ant

A tyrant (Greek τύραννος, tyrannos) was originally one who illegally seized and controlled a governmental power in a polis. Tyrants were a group of individuals who took over many Greek poleis during the uprising of the middle classes in the sixth and seventh centuries BC, ousting the aristocratic governments. Plato and Aristotle define a tyrant as, "one who rules without law, looks to his own advantage rather than that of his subjects, and uses extreme and cruel tactics—against his own people as well as others".^[1]

In common usage, the word "tyrant" carries connotations of a harsh and cruel ruler who places his or her own interests or the interests of an oligarchy over the best interests of the general population, which the tyrant governs or controls. The Greek term carried no pejorative connotation during the Archaic and early Classical periods but was clearly a bad word to Plato, and on account of the decisive influence of political philosophy its negative connotations only increased down into the Hellenistic period, becoming synonymous with "Authenteo" - another term which carried authoritarian connotations around the turn of the first century A.D.^{[citation needed]} During the seventh and sixth centuries BC, tyranny was often looked upon as an intermediate stage between narrow oligarchy and more democratic forms of polity. However, in the late fifth and fourth centuries, a new kind of tyrant, the military dictator, arose, specifically in Sicily.

In ancient Greece, tyrants were influential opportunists that came to power by securing the support of different factions of a deme. The word "tyrannos", possibly pre-Greek, Pelasgian or eastern in origin,^[4] then carried no ethical censure; it simply referred to anyone, good or bad, who obtained executive power in a polis by unconventional means. Support for the tyrants came from the growing middle class and from the peasants who had no land or were in debt to the wealthy land owners. It is true that they had no legal right to rule, but the people preferred them over kings or the aristocracy. The Greek tyrants stayed in power by using mercenary soldiers from outside of their respective city-state. To mock tyranny, Thales wrote that the strangest thing to see is "an aged tyrant" meaning that tyrants do not have the public support to survive for long.

Tyrion if he will ever be, will be an illegitimate ruler. Firstly tywin himself didn' acknowledge him. Second he is a dwarf, while Westeros may be different, but being a "cripple, bastard, broken" meant the said people were automaticly out of the line of succession in medieval ages. There were times of course it didn'Thapen, and the said individual managed to secure power, but they legality were still often questioned.

So even if he will ever obtain power it never will be legally, like the way Robb were seen withouth a question as Neds legal heir.

The word tyrant originally didn'T have a pejorative meaning, but it can maybe refer to a darker road for tyrion as well.

I am pretty sure with all the KIng, Giant etc forshadowing, tyrion will have power and a huge importance in the game, so tyrant can mean his way of obtaining the power. But again were he go down on a darker road (and in my opinion he is on one after ADwD, but I guess save the discussion for later), it can refer to his type of future relationship to power as well.

In the Enlightenment, thinkers applied the word tyranny to the system of governance that had developed around aristocracy and monarchy. Specifically, John Locke as part of his argument against the "Divine Right of Kings" in his book Two Treatises of Government defines it this way: “Tyranny is the exercise of power beyond right, which nobody can have a right to; and this is making use of the power any one has in his hands, not for the good of those who are under it, but for his own private, separate advantage.”^[6]

The Tyr being so common among the Lannisters is again could show that they got the power "illegally", Lann tricking the Castery's.

OH and this:

The Greek tyrants stayed in power by using mercenary soldiers from outside of their respective city-state.

This is pretty much how tyrion wants to be in power at the end of ADwD. With mercenary soldiers from outside (Essos) of Westeros.

EDIT2:

I found another possibe one (?):

North Germanic Tyr

An early depiction of Tyr is found on the IK 190 bracteate found near Trollhättan. The figure is shown with long hair, holding a sceptre in his left hand, and with a wolf biting his right.^[6]

According to the Poetic Edda and Prose Edda, at one stage the gods decided to shackle the Fenris wolf (Fenrir), but the beast broke every chain they put upon him. Eventually they had the dwarves make them a magical ribbon called Gleipnir. It appeared to be only a silken ribbon but was made of six wondrous ingredients: the sound of a cat's footfall, the beard of a woman, the roots of a mountain, bear's sinews (meaning nerves, sensibility), fish's breath and bird's spittle. The creation of Gleipnir is said to be the reason why none of the above exist.^[7] Fenrir sensed the gods' deceit and refused to be bound with it unless one of them put his hand in the wolf's mouth.

Tyr, known for his great wisdom and courage, agreed, and the other gods bound the wolf. After Fenrir had been bound by the gods, he struggled to try to break the rope. When the gods saw that Fenrir was bound they all rejoiced, except Tyr, who had his right hand bitten off by the wolf. Fenrir will remain bound until the day of Ragnarök. As a result of this deed, Tyr is called the "Leavings of the Wolf"; which is to be understood as a poetic kenning for glory.

According to the Prose version of Ragnarok, Tyr is destined to kill and be killed by Garm, the guard dog of Hel. However, in the two poetic versions of Ragnarok, he goes unmentioned; unless one believes that he is the "Mighty One".

In Lokasenna, Tyr is taunted with cuckoldry by Loki, maybe another hint that he had a consort or wife at one time.

In the Hymskvidha, Tyr's father is named as the etin Hymir – the term "Hymir's kin" was used a kenning for etinkind – while his mother goes unnamed, but is otherwise described in terms that befit a goddess. This myth also pairs Tyr with Thor, and draws a comparison between their strength via the lifting of Hymir's cauldron. Thor proves the stronger, but other than Thor's own son, Magni, Tyr is the only deity whose strength is ever questioned in comparison to the Thunderer's.

[Blisscraft]

Ragnorak - a couple of thoughts. First, you mentioned that the pyromancers' colors are stripped red and black, Targ colors. When I read that I thought not only of the Targs, but also, because of the red and black stripes, Mance Rayder's cloak. Also, thought about Pycelle when Tryion thinks "Myrcella. . . well that egg has hatched. Let's see what color the chick is." Boiled eggs were a part of that very unappetizing breakfast in Pycelle's chambers.

About Cersei - When Bronn meets Tyrion at his litter and delivers the message about Tyrion being "summoned" to Maegor's, Tyrion says ". . . The longer Cersei waits, the angrier she'll become, and anger makes her stupid. I much prefer angry and stupid to composed and cunning." Tyrion doesn't ever make it to Cersei as she has come to his solar. She is very angry as Tyrion predicted. She's violent and rash. When she finally cries, it seems like another act of violence, like a baby crying when it isn't getting what it wants rather than because it's hungry or soiled. When Cersei follows up her tears with "Don't touch me." Tyrion thinks her comment hurts "more than any slap." I don't trust her enough to sympathize with her. I know about her gift for mummery and how often and well she lies. Cersei has lost control over her desires (ruling as regent) as well as her emotions. I don't think she's crying over the loss of Myrcella to Dorne, but rather over her loss of control over the realm.

[Ragnorak]

Blisscraft - I'm always a fan of bringing Mance into things. I can't think of a specific meaning, but the thoughts of Aerys burning people alive certainly fits with Mance as does the cloak symbolism we continue to see in Tyrion's chapters.

I don't think Cersei was faking it. I suspect the notion of displaying weakness in front of Tyrion, even to manipulate him, is just outside her pychological framework. She's also does it at the point where she concedes to Tyrion in sending Myrcella away so she is willingly not getting her way here. Cersei is the only POV I lack sympathy for-- mostly because she inflicts everything I might feel for her about on to Sansa. I like your take on her reacting to a loss of control, but I'm also curious what people who feel more sympathetic to Cersei view this as. We don't get a Cersei POV until next book so she's still a big mystery at this point and that mystery creates a void that is filled with reader's suspicions. Having this sympathetic moment (even if it doesn't pull on my heart strings) strikes me as significant since it is well before she becomes a POV character where we begin to have those suspicions dispelled.

[Blisscraft]

I don't think she's faking it, per se. It's very hard for me to trust her because of some the aspects of her personality discussed so far in the thread and some of the specific problems listed above. She's lost control. She's having a tantrum. Part of that has to do with Tyrion's manipulation of her, making her wait for him, and part of that has to do with not having a say about Marcella and Dorne. She has felt a similar loss of choice and control before, when she was shipped off to marry Robert. It's more personal to her than it is parental towards Myrcella.

I don't want anyone to get the wrong idea about what I think about Cersei. She's a great character, multi-dimensional and fascinating. Part of what makes her so interesting is her determination to have things her own way, come hell or high water. She a force to be reckoned with. This little breakdown in front of Tyrion is a crack in her armor. More will come.

[Lummel]

Back to the name, to me the names with Tyr, but especially Tyrion's name always reminded me of the world tyrant...

But then all this could be true of the Tyrells as well, but I suppose Ser Dontos does call them Lannisters with roses...

... When she finally cries, it seems like another act of violence, like a baby crying when it isn't getting what it wants rather than because it's hungry or soiled. When Cersei follows up her tears with "Don't touch me." Tyrion thinks her comment hurts "more than any slap." I don't trust her enough to sympathize with her. I know about her gift for mummery and how often and well she lies. Cersei has lost control over her desires (ruling as regent) as well as her emotions. I don't think she's crying over the loss of Myrcella to Dorne, but rather over her loss of control over the realm.

Oh, a harsh reading of Cersei!

Well I don't recall her thinking about Myrcella until news arrives of her wounding and isn't she rather contemptuous of tears in the Sansa chapter during the battle of the Blackwater?

Power does seem to be her main focus and by depriving her of the opportunity to dispose of Myrcella, Tyrion has asserted his authority over her. So I tempted by this reading.

Blisscraft - I'm always a fan of bringing Mance into things. I can't think of a specific meaning, but the thoughts of Aerys burning people alive certainly fits with Mance as does the cloak symbolism we continue to see in Tyrion's chapters...

Off topic but I'm mildly interested that we universally read Aerys II as mad, bad and dangerous to know on account of his burning people alive but a good number of people still like Stannis.

[David Selig]

I was rereading this recently and I started wondering why the Lannisters reject this peace offer. Looking at their situation at the time, it was their best chance to somehow survive. Half a realm is better than none and losing everything. How were they planning to defeat both Robb and Renly's huge army? With Robb out of the picture, they had much more realistic chance to defeat Renly. It still would've been a long shot, but not nearly as unlikely.