Rereading Tyrion III (ACOK)

[Lummel]

Two actually. And unless you work at Chataya's or similar neither are suitable for work so I shall refrain from linking. I'll stick to imagining Cersei explaining to Lancel what needs to be done while the musicians play something

the background.

[Blisscraft]

Two indeed! I don't know if I want to stand corrected or not.

Lachrimae - Yes that would be the perfect musical accompaniment. Bitter tears.

[Lummel]

...Tyrion ironically is the Lannister who most takes after Tywin (which likely contributes to the mutual antagonism of their relationship)...

Yes I think so, or to put it the other way round Jaime is the one who least, I think, takes after Tywin.

Maybe since Jaime's sworn himself to the kingsguard (and that's a hard truth his father seems to ignore) and is out of the competition for the Tywin legacy, the fight is between Tyrion and Cersei to be the next leader of the family?

@Blisscraft, I wonder if the loss of the black pearls isn't foreshadowing of what happens to Alayaya later on? By refusing to sleep with Dancy in order for the girl not to lose her pearls, he inadvertently causes all suspicion to fall upon Alayaya as being his mistress. The black pearls are therefore symbolic of the human cost involved in these transactions. Someone always get hurt, and someone always has to pay - and it's often the ones with little power and authority.

The pearls are like Lancel's knighthood - the fruit of immoral activity, sprung from corruption. Well I'm assuming here they are either payment for both with money from immoral earnings. Of course they could just be an heirloom from her dear old mum.

(repent ye sinners! let the crone light your way and the smith mend your heart before the father judges you justly!)

[Winter's Knight]

Cersei would have him killed out of hand if she learned he was betraying her, and if by some grace of the gods she did not, Lancel would never survive the day Jaime Lannister returned to King’s Landing.

It struck me that Tyrion overestimates Cersei' ruthlessness somewhat:

Knighting him was a mistake, and bedding him a bigger one. Lancel was a weak reed, and she liked his newfound piety not at all; he had been much more amusing when he was trying to be Jaime. What has this mewling fool told the High Septon? And what will he tell his little Frey when they lie together in the dark? If he confessed to bedding Cersei, well, she could weather that. Men were always lying about women; she would put it down as the braggadocio of a callow boy smitten by her beauty. If he sings of Robert and the strongwine, though . . . “Atonement is best achieved through prayer,” Cersei told him. “ Silent prayer.” She left him to think about that and girded herself to face the Tyrell host.

Adoring the reread-y'all are so smart, pearly necklace jokes notwithstanding.:P

[Lummel]

It struck me that Tyrion overestimates Cersei' ruthlessness somewhat:

yes, but then doesn't Cersei overestimate Tyrion's savage capering murderiousity in AFFC, they both seem to have this idea of the other as being even less pleasant than they actually are.

Tyrion certainly seems to attribute the ruthlessness of others to Cersei as I believe Lyanna was saying up thread.

Adoring the reread-y'all are so smart, pearly necklace jokes notwithstanding.

You are always welcome, which ever half of that sentence you want to bring to the thread (even if you did volunteer to decapitate me rumble, grumble) ;)

[Winter's Knight]

yes, but then doesn't Cersei overestimate Tyrion's savage capering murderiousity in AFFC, they both seem to have this idea of the other as being even less pleasant than they actually are.

Tyrion certainly seems to attribute the ruthlessness of others to Cersei as I believe Lyanna was saying up thread.

The difference being that Cersei was relying on what she had witnessed at Joff's wedding and his subsequent murder of their father. Tyrion is relying on-what is he relying on? Cersei has told him outright that Ned was never supposed to have been beheaded, so is he just basing her reputation for ruthlessness on Varys' spurious bastard-killing story? He never asked her about Jon Arryn either, even though Pycelle told him that

“Yes,” he whimpered, “ yes, Colemon was purging, so I sent him away. The queen needed Lord Arryn dead, she did not say so, could not, Varys was listening, always listening, but when I looked at her I knew. It was not me who gave him the poison, though, I swear it.”

You are always welcome, which ever half of that sentence you want to bring to the thread (even if you did volunteer to decapitate me rumble, grumble) ;)

I lay my sword at your feet Lummel! I fall to my knees and crave your pardon for my unknightly words and unseemly threats. I swear you my sword if you will have it and shall meekly take whatever number of ave marias and our fathers you see fit to set as my penance.

But forgive me!

[Ragnorak]

Judging by Jaime's thoughts during Tywin's wake, I'd say he definitely did not love his father. Although I am not certain if it's ever really specified why. Tyrion has a rock solid motive to hate Tywin, Cersei doesn't actally seem to hate him, not really, but Jaime seems to.

What makes you say that? I got the impression of distance, a bit of anger and frustration over their last real contact being a fight and guilt over freeing Tyrion and revealing the truth that led him to kill Tywin. I don't disagree with your take, I just don't recall reading it that way. Jaime was fostered and his father was in KL as Hand for much of his life until they swapped geographies. I never got the impression that they were close. I haven't reread that chapter recently, that's just what I recall of my impression.

[Winter's Knight]

What makes you say that? I got the impression of distance, a bit of anger and frustration over their last real contact being a fight and guilt over freeing Tyrion and revealing the truth that led him to kill Tywin. I don't disagree with your take, I just don't recall reading it that way. Jaime was fostered and his father was in KL as Hand for much of his life until they swapped geographies. I never got the impression that they were close. I haven't reread that chapter recently, that's just what I recall of my impression.

Off topic: the Lannister kids seem to have spent very little time together no? Cersei left home at about eleven when Tyrion was two and Jaime had gone off to be fostered. She returns at seventeen when Tyrion is eight and Jaime is raised to the KG. About two years later, she weds Robert while Tyrion seems to have stayed at CR.

I think Lummel is onto something when he says that at least Tyrion's antagonism towards Cersei is out of jealousy for Jaime's love.

[Loras]

What makes you say that? I got the impression of distance, a bit of anger and frustration over their last real contact being a fight and guilt over freeing Tyrion and revealing the truth that led him to kill Tywin. I don't disagree with your take, I just don't recall reading it that way. Jaime was fostered and his father was in KL as Hand for much of his life until they swapped geographies. I never got the impression that they were close. I haven't reread that chapter recently, that's just what I recall of my impression.

In Cersei II from 'A Feast for Crows' she recalls something that she overheard Tywin say to Jaime:

"You cannot eat love, nor buy a horse with it, nor warm your halls on a cold night with it."

It is clear that Tywin doesn't value love and I doubt, using this quote as a basis, that their relationship was built on love. I think the relationship revolves much more around duty than anything else. As Kevan points out to Cersei, Tywin always saw Jaime as his heir even after he took the oath to join the White Swords.

Jaime's thoughts during the wake revolve around judgement more than anything else. Whether that is the judgement of his father - at one point he looks back to make sure that Tywin is still dead and not rising from his bier - or from the gods. He spends the wake building himself up to becoming a better man and escaping the 'corruption' of Lannister rule.

The difference being that Cersei was relying on what she had witnessed at Joff's wedding and his subsequent murder of their father. Tyrion is relying on-what is he relying on? Cersei has told him outright that Ned was never supposed to have been beheaded, so is he just basing her reputation for ruthlessness on Varys' spurious bastard-killing story? He never asked her about Jon Arryn either, even though Pycelle told him that

Really interesting point here Winter. Something that I had not considered before.

[Ragnorak]

Tyrion VIII (ACOK)

Summary

This whole chapter takes place in a council meeting. Varys is briefing the Small Council on Renly's death. The who and the how of his demise is a mystery but so far Storms End has refused to yield to Stannis. Additionally, a portion of Renly's strength is with Loras at Bitterbridge and they have not yet declared for Stannis. Tyrion suggests trying to win them over with a marriage offer of Joffrey to Margaery. Cersei suggests that Tyrion go to negotiate the deal and he counters that she would be better suited. Littlefinger uses their exchange to put himself forth as the best candidate. Littlefinger says he'll require gold, the Redwyne twins, and a document signed by Joffrey and the whole of the council authorizing him to make deals in the King's name. Cersei objects to sending the twins so they settle on sending one and keeping the other. At the end of the meeting Cersei apologizes to Tyrion for being so harsh with him in the past and kisses him on his forehead leaving Tyrion convinced she is plotting something.

Observations

Tyrion glanced out the window. The fog was so thick that he could not even see the curtain wall across the yard. A few dim lights shone indistinct through that greyness.

This is both a perfect metaphor for our running discussion on Tyrion's morality and for his ability to see what is really going on around him in this viper's nest of a capital.

Varys stood over the brazier, warming his soft hands. “It would appear Renly was murdered most fearfully in the very midst of his army...

This struck me given his later tale to Tyrion about his castration. The telling of the story was inspired by the magic behind Renly's death and Varys's manhood was burned in a brazier.

“You pay me well for these rumors, my gracious queen.”

“We pay you for the truth, Lord Varys. Remember that, or this small council may grow smaller still.”

I believe Varys always speaks in technical truths so I find this amusing. I'm also curious if Cersei took the occasion of Varys telling her about the loss of her guards to free Jaime as an opportunity to demand "dirt" on Tyrion. I suspect this line is more about the kiss Tyrion gets at the end than it is about Renly's murder. I think this also ties into Littlefinger's confidence that Varys will go before he does.

Here is another reference to Tyrion seeking love. It is also a follow up to Varys's suggestion that Tommen is more pliable. Either Varys has his resources taxed or he doesn't want Joffrey to ... shall we say moderate through some relief.

Varys had laid a finger on his cheek, smiling enigmatically. “My lord, a suspicious man might think you wished to find a time when Sandor Clegane was not protecting King Joffrey, the better to do the boy some harm.”

“Surely you know me better than that, Lord Varys,” Tyrion said. “Why, all I want is for Joffrey to love me.”

The eunuch had promised to look into the matter. The war made its own demands, though; Joffrey’s initiation into manhood would need to wait.

Lots of wildfire references with Cersei throughout the series.

“The Hand speaks with the king’s voice.” Candlelight gleamed green as wildfire in Cersei’s eyes.

Possibly one of the most loaded lines in the series.

“I’ve never been frightened of shepherds. It’s the sheep who trouble me.”

There's even a little irony given Petyr's estate aside from the more obvious commentary about lords not being any threat. There is also the unseen dagger/ wolf in sheep's clothing aspect. Off topic, but it makes Sansa's lamb's wool garb during Snow Winterfell that much more ominous for him. Does he consider Tyrion to be a shepherd or a sheep? Does he consider framing Tyrion for the murder here or is LF the one who gives Mandon Moore the instructions to eliminate Tyrion?

Analysis

There is a tremendous amount going on in this chapter despite the only overt plot developments being that news of Renly's death has reached Kings Landing and Littlefinger is being dispatched to make a marriage offer. On the surface we have more of the sibling rivalry between Tyrion and Cersei playing out. Previously they shared laughter and disbelief over Stannis and Renly fighting. Here we get the news of that fights outcome and the witness the seeds of Tyrion's "death" planted. We also have a parallel bit of infighting between Varys and Littlefinger where the real power struggle is taking place.

Varys tittered nervously. “You and your noble brother will leave His Grace with no council at all if you continue.”

“I daresay, the realm could survive a few less councillors,” said Littlefinger with a smile.

“Dear dear Petyr,” said Varys, “are you not concerned that yours might be the next name on the Hand’s little list?”

“Before you, Varys? I should never dream of it.”

Varys has clearly "bet" on Tyrion while Littlefinger is wagering on Cersei and Joffrey. I found Littlefinger's assertion that this might be a ruse to be very telling about his own inner workings. I also read Varys's response as part of their ongoing subtle banter.

“Might this be some ruse?” asked Littlefinger.

“If so, it is a ruse of surpassing cleverness,” said Varys. “It has certainly hoodwinked me.”

Tyrion is silent during the opening and it is Cersei who responds to Varys. Tyrion even ignores the talk of his "little list." We don't even have a thought or facial expression from Tyrion during the opening. This choice of listening before responding is very Tywin-like. Tyrion is satisfied that despite the lack of reliable intel that Stannis is behind it since he is the one who benefits. He isn't distracted by the murder mystery or the hand that did the deed. (This is a rather Oberyn-like take on responsibility for murder.) Tyrion pays attention to the specific of what Varys says and sees the opportunity.

“Many,” Tyrion said pointedly, “but not all?”

Tyrion leaned forward. “There is a chance here, it seems to me. Win Loras Tyrell to our cause and Lord Mace Tyrell and his bannermen might join us as well. They may have sworn their swords to Stannis for the moment, yet they cannot love the man, or they would have been his from the start.”

Love is a curious notion for a Lannister to embrace regarding the loyalty of bannermen and ties into Tyrion's great internal conflict. It is curious that this wasn't framed in terms of a benefit from backing Renly rather than love despite it being accurate. I suspect Tywin would have framed it entirely as gain from backing Renly rather than love. This suggestion of winning the Tyrells results in an exchange between Varys and Littlefinger revealing much about this other rivalry Tyrion can't see through the grey fog.

“What sort of reasons do you mean to give them?”

“Gold reasons,” Littlefinger suggested at once.

Varys made a tsking sound. “Sweet Petyr, surely you do not mean to suggest that these puissant lords and noble knights could be bought like so many chickens in the market.”

“Have you been to our markets of late, Lord Varys?” asked Littlefinger. “You’d find it easier to buy a lord than a chicken, I daresay. Of course, lords cluck prouder than chickens, and take it ill if you offer them coin like a tradesman, but they are seldom adverse to taking gifts… honors, lands, castles…”

Whether honors, lands, or castles, Littlefinger sees it all as "gold reasons." The bribe needs to be packaged differently to appease the proud clucking of a lord but he sees it as a problem of properly marketing the bribe not as a different dynamic than a bribe. Varys, as we know from his riddle, sees it all as a matter of belief. On the surface Varys can be viewed as quite sarcastically suggesting that lords can't be bought, but I think this is him taking a jab at Petyr by calling him an amateur.

Cersei has the far more Lannister philosophy regarding love.

“Renly is dead, Your Grace,” Littlefinger pointed out, “and neither Stannis nor Lord Paxter will have forgotten how Redwyne galleys closed the sea during the siege of Storm’s End. Restore the twins and perchance we may win Redwyne’s love.”

Cersei remained unconvinced. “The Others can keep his love, I want his swords and sails. Holding tight to those twins is the best way to make certain that we’ll have them.”

We also see how readily Littlefinger jumps in to suggest how to manipulate Joffrey. Aside from another hint about his involvement in Ned's beheading, I think this is part of his banter with Varys. He is reminding Varys that Joffrey is his piece.

Littlefinger spoke up. “You might point out to His Grace that the Tyrells are much wealthier than the Starks, and that Margaery is said to be lovely… and beddable besides.”

The striking part of the Lannister infighting is that they can't even unite despite a struggle for survival.

It may be the only way that Joffrey lives long enough to reach his wedding night.

It is this infighting that enables and empowers Littlefinger to arrange for Joffrey's assassination and Tyrion's framing. The framing was supposed to result in his death but more Lannister infighting will result in Tywin paying that debt with his life. This chapter really sets the stage for the downfall of House Lannister at the hands of the infighting of real power brokers in Kings Landing.

[Lummel]

"It may be the only way that Joffrey lives long enough to reach his wedding night."

Ho ho, how sinister that line looks now!

[Winter's Knight]

"It may be the only way that Joffrey lives long enough to reach his wedding night."

Ho ho, how sinister that line looks now!

As does Tyrion scheming to take Joff out of the castle when Sandor isn't present.

[Datepalm]

Interesting Varys-LF dynamic. Tyrion and Varys were compared to Rick and Renault a while back, but this banter here strikes me as being closer. (I saw Casablanca a few weeks ago. What, you make your own fun with friendly strangers in Istanbul airports.) The pretense of civility is paper thin, but at the same time they're united in speaking the same cynical language, which the people around them, particularly the ones supposed to be the true figures of authority (Cercei, in this instance) aren't picking up at all.

[Winterfellian]

Thanks for the great post Ragnorak!

About the sibling rivalry, we have discussed before discussed on Tyrion and Cersei's inability to put their differences aside in favor of the Lannister cause so to speak. In this chapter we see a very direct effect of this when LF is the one chosen as an envoy. I think either Cersei or Tyrion would have been able to arrange the marriage but in their reluctance to compromise the power they both believe they have over the other they are forced to turn to LF.

I find it ironic that Tyrion reflects to himself when LF's name is suggested "he has us" yet fails to realize that that it was his and Cersei's quarrels that gave LF the tools to trap them in his web. Moreover by the end of the chapter Tyrion's chain is mentioned and he said that "It grows stronger everyday". We know that Tyrion is relying on this chain to protect the city. The links keeping this chain together must be strong in order to protect KG. However so does the links (Cersei and Tyrion) keeping together the Lannister chain holding KG be strong as well in order for the Lannister hold to be effective. Both Lannister siblings don't realize this. Meanwhile one chain grows stronger everyday, and the other one grows weaker.

[Ragnorak]

I was surprised by how much of an exposition of LF this chapter was. We have his comment on Sansa's body (and he's already plotting to steal her from KL), his views on how easily lords are bought, his belief that lords are no threat, his accurately assessing the Florents were the first to go to Stannis, his knowledge that Loras is the key to Mace, his belief that he's safer than Varys, his almost reflexive ability to manipulate Joffrey, and more. There is a great deal to be read between the lines here with LF.

Again I'm struck at the difference between LF and Varys. LF telegraphs his desire for Harrenhal with his look to Tyrion. Knowing LF's plans over the next few books makes it easy to piece together what he is doing here. Varys walks off alone and I haven't the slightest idea what he's doing despite knowing about Aegon. I'm becoming more convinced as this reread goes on that LF is out of his league with Varys.

A bit off topic I was also struck by Cersei's seeming desire to still have Sansa marry Joffrey. Her defense of Joffrey beating Sansa and ripping her clothes off is the main reason I just have no sympathy for Cersei, but she still seems keen on the marriage. Does she think this will shape Sansa into an ideal bride? Is this some revenge on Ned? Does she really want Sansa as a bride for her darling son? If she does consider Sansa worthy of Joffrey, it is worth a closer look at her take on Sansa marrying Tyrion.

Winterfellian - Couldn't agree more. Tyrion is agreeing to be framed for Joffrey's murder that Cersei just agreed to let LF plan. Ironically, Cersei probably couldn't pull off this wedding given the QoT attitudes and the real price of the alliance. Cersei really is the one who should have gone given that Tywin sent Tyrion to rule in his stead and he's the real power and family patriarch here. Who let's the lowborn Master of Coin (from the Vale not even the Westerlands) arrange a marriage for their son, the king? Marriage is about as "family" as family gets and these two can't put aside a spat for their own survival and the propagation of the dynasty. This really drives home how hollow this Lannister "victory" will really be.

Besides, other than a Lannister who is Joffrey supposed to marry if not Sansa? Sansa was Robert's arrangement not Cersei's. Dorne will never marry to a Lannister, the Tullys are both taken and too old, no female heirs in the Vale, and no female heirs in the Storm Lands. In terms of major Houses his options seem to be Sansa, Margaery, Asha, and Arianne. I suppose this puts Cersei's Sansa fixation in a new light but I'm still curious how people with a more positive take on Cersei read her views of the marriage arrangement.

[Tagganaro]

I love the exchange between LF and Varys here. I agree with Ragnorak that this emphatically presents the difference between the 2- LF has completely telegraphed his desires, while we still have no freaking idea what the hell Varys is up to. It does give you the sense that Varys is playing a much different and more complicated game than LF is. Chess/Checkers analogy maybe?

I also love how foreshadowing LF's remark is about "buying lords" and comparing them to chickens. Money doesn't matter so much as honors and other titles. This will be his exact line of thinking in bringing Nestor Royce over to his side in the Vale. But we also see that lords can be bought as well if the situation presents itself. LF will buy Lady Waynwood by purchasing her debts, and Lyonel Corbray as well by arranging a large dowry for him.

[Ulrik1312]

A bit off topic I was also struck by Cersei's seeming desire to still have Sansa marry Joffrey. Her defense of Joffrey beating Sansa and ripping her clothes off is the main reason I just have no sympathy for Cersei, but she still seems keen on the marriage. Does she think this will shape Sansa into an ideal bride? Is this some revenge on Ned? Does she really want Sansa as a bride for her darling son? If she does consider Sansa worthy of Joffrey, it is worth a closer look at her take on Sansa marrying Tyrion.

Besides, other than a Lannister who is Joffrey supposed to marry if not Sansa? Sansa was Robert's arrangement not Cersei's. Dorne will never marry to a Lannister, the Tullys are both taken and too old, no female heirs in the Vale, and no female heirs in the Storm Lands. In terms of major Houses his options seem to be Sansa, Margaery, Asha, and Arianne. I suppose this puts Cersei's Sansa fixation in a new light but I'm still curious how people with a more positive take on Cersei read her views of the marriage arrangement.

I believe that because of Maggy the Frog profecie, Cersei wanted to avert it by having Sansa as the next Queen, somebody who is suposse to be naive, stupid, etc. My point is she thought that Sansa will never take away all she hold dear and she didn't know if Margaery will be different.

I apologize for my bad English. And I love this reread.

[Ragnorak]

Welcome aboard, Ulrik1312

I tend to read Cersei in a fairly harsh light largely because I see her inflicting on Sansa all the negative experiences from Cersei's past that might evoke my sympathies. I certainly think the prophesy applies to her hatred of Tyrion though I hadn't considered her feelings toward Sansa. I don't recall her thinking back on Sansa when she starts to perceive Margaery as a potential candidate for the prophesy. I also admit I was looking for a more humanizing motivation to balance my pull toward viewing her as a two dimensional villain.

I love the exchange between LF and Varys here. I agree with Ragnorak that this emphatically presents the difference between the 2- LF has completely telegraphed his desires, while we still have no freaking idea what the hell Varys is up to. It does give you the sense that Varys is playing a much different and more complicated game than LF is. Chess/Checkers analogy maybe?

I also love how foreshadowing LF's remark is about "buying lords" and comparing them to chickens. Money doesn't matter so much as honors and other titles. This will be his exact line of thinking in bringing Nestor Royce over to his side in the Vale. But we also see that lords can be bought as well if the situation presents itself. LF will buy Lady Waynwood by purchasing her debts, and Lyonel Corbray as well by arranging a large dowry for him.

This is the most surprising aspect of the reread for me so far. I was never in the LF fan club, but I had always viewed him as an adept player. He isn't without skill as a manipulator but I'm inclined to think of him as closer to a Varys piece than a player after some of these chapters. I would have been inclined to think the QoT was out of her element dealing with LF, now I suspect LF would be wise to avoid encountering her again.

I also read all of these flaws as foreshadowing his downfall at Sansa's hands. He lets too much slip and he flaunts trophies like the dagger. I see a Ned betrayal reveal to Sansa in the making. The bragging he did to Sansa on the boat I had thought uncharacteristic of him. Now I'm seeing regular hints of it. I had completely forgotten the fearing the sheep line and that is a telling bit about LF including his choice to announce it in a council meeting. Cersei and Tyrion may miss it but Varys certainly did not-- and Cersei and Tyrion have memories and they both still draw breath.

I think the Tyrion/Cersei and Varys/LF rivalry is a bit like our two ilicit relationships Tyrion/Shae and Cersei/Lancel being compared last chapter. Prior to that we had Tyrion/Cersei and Stannis/Renly. I wonder if there's been more that we missed like a deliberate contrast of Tywin/Gregor and Tyrion/Shagga or maybe Tywin/Kevan and Tyrion/Jaime. I know we touched on those a bit but I don't it was looked at as a deliberate juxtapostion like these seem to be.

[Lummel]

...I find it ironic that Tyrion reflects to himself when LF's name is suggested "he has us" yet fails to realize that that it was his and Cersei's quarrels that gave LF the tools to trap them in his web. Moreover by the end of the chapter Tyrion's chain is mentioned and he said that "It grows stronger everyday". We know that Tyrion is relying on this chain to protect the city. The links keeping this chain together must be strong in order to protect KG. However so does the links (Cersei and Tyrion) keeping together the Lannister chain holding KG be strong as well in order for the Lannister hold to be effective. Both Lannister siblings don't realize this. Meanwhile one chain grows stronger everyday, and the other one grows weaker.

Yes, I agree with this, they can't see the wood for the trees here.

...A bit off topic I was also struck by Cersei's seeming desire to still have Sansa marry Joffrey. Her defense of Joffrey beating Sansa and ripping her clothes off is the main reason I just have no sympathy for Cersei, but she still seems keen on the marriage. Does she think this will shape Sansa into an ideal bride? Is this some revenge on Ned? Does she really want Sansa as a bride for her darling son? If she does consider Sansa worthy of Joffrey, it is worth a closer look at her take on Sansa marrying Tyrion...

My thought on this is a nasty one. If she thinks about marriage as an exercise in power, then for her Joffrey-Sansa bodes well. Her marriage was a melee - she didn't succeed in establishing dominance over Robert. Joffrey on the other hand from her point of view is establishing himself in control of Sansa (so long as the men o the kingsguard, loyal and true, are around anyway.

I believe that because of Maggy the Frog profecie, Cersei wanted to avert it by having Sansa as the next Queen, somebody who is suposse to be naive, stupid, etc. My point is she thought that Sansa will never take away all she hold dear and she didn't know if Margaery will be different...

Welcome Ulrik!

Maybe. Sansa would still be younger and more beautiful, but if she is thoroughly under Joffrey's thumb then maybe she thinks she can escape her fate.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

I caught up over the weekend. You guys write so fast. Keep up the good work :cool4:

I love the exchange between LF and Varys here. I agree with Ragnorak that this emphatically presents the difference between the 2- LF has completely telegraphed his desires, while we still have no freaking idea what the hell Varys is up to. It does give you the sense that Varys is playing a much different and more complicated game than LF is. Chess/Checkers analogy maybe?

I disagree. In my opinion, LF intentionally telegraphed his desire for Harrenhal to mask his real intentions. We readers know that he doesn't care about Harrenhal, except as a tool for his plans. And it is already pretty clear at this stage that LF plays the entire Seven Kingdoms for whatever hidden goal he has. But he intentionally shows Tyrion, Cersei and Varys a smaller goal in Harrenhal. Harrenhal would be indeed a high goal for the Lord of Sheepshit Peninsula, and Tyrion and Cersei are already surprised and taken aback that someone as low could dream of it. And this way they still underestimate him while they think they know his measure. His true goal stays hidden.

Not sure if Varys is fooled though.