Rereading Tyrion III (ACOK)

[Axrendale]

I was rereading this recently and I started wondering why the Lannisters reject this peace offer. Looking at their situation at the time, it was their best chance to somehow survive. Half a realm is better than none and losing everything. How were they planning to defeat both Robb and Renly's huge army? With Robb out of the picture, they had much more realistic chance to defeat Renly. It still would've been a long shot, but not nearly as unlikely.

At the time when the offer came through, the Lannisters believed that they were about to destroy Robb - and with good reason. Robb's forces were badly reduced by this point - the riverlords had left to defend their lands from Tywin's reavers, Roose Bolton was stuck on the wrong side of the Ruby Ford, and there were no reinforcements coming from the North, while the Lannisters had one great host commanded by Tywin at Harrenhal, and a second one being formed by Ser Stafford at the Rock. The Riverlords were in the process of being burnt to ashes, and the only direct route into the Westerlands (via the Golden Tooth) had been blocked off by a host commanded by Ser Forley Prester. This was why Tyrion deliberately tried to draw out the negotiation process - to give Tywin more time to bring his two hosts together in order to crush the Starks in a pincer movement. Once the Starks were out of the way, Tywin would be able to return to the South with the united forces of House Lannister, and was confident of being able to achieve victory against Renly and the Tyrells.

The one thing that wasn't anticipated was the the Starks would be saved by a stroke of amazing good luck - the discovery of a path through the mountains that enabled Robb's host to bypass the Golden Tooth. But that is getting ahead of ourselves...

[Lummel]

I was rereading this recently and I started wondering why the Lannisters reject this peace offer. Looking at their situation at the time, it was their best chance to somehow survive. Half a realm is better than none and losing everything. How were they planning to defeat both Robb and Renly's huge army? With Robb out of the picture, they had much more realistic chance to defeat Renly. It still would've been a long shot, but not nearly as unlikely.

Another question is how is it that Tyrion, in theory with Cersei decides upon the response rather than referring it to Tywin at Harrenhall? Particularly when they want to win time.

More generally I suppose maybe we could say that the Lannisters are high stakes gamblers. They preferred to take the chance of facing three enemies rather than risk the blow to the prestige of their regime by surrendering a great chunk of the realm to Robb Stark. In practical terms that would have given him a chance to dig in and establish himself in the Riverlands which I suppose the Lannisters preferred to avoid too.

[Blisscraft]

Oh, a harsh reading of Cersei!

Well I don't recall her thinking about Myrcella until news arrives of her wounding and isn't she rather contemptuous of tears in the Sansa chapter during the battle of the Blackwater?

Power does seem to be her main focus and by depriving her of the opportunity to dispose of Myrcella, Tyrion has asserted his authority over her. So I tempted by this reading.

Don't mean to be harsh. It's just the way I see this particular meeting. Really all of that slapping didn't work on Tyrion, why not just pluck down and have a good cry? ;)

[Axrendale]

Another question is how is it that Tyrion, in theory with Cersei decides upon the response rather than referring it to Tywin at Harrenhall? Particularly when they want to win time.

Tyrion at the moment is acting as his father's proxy - apparently that position includes management of diplomacy in its portfolio of responsibilities.

The Lannisters at this point are still doing their best to maintain the polite fiction that they are just loyal vassals of the Iron Throne. Because of that, King's Landing remains the center of policy-making decisions, even if they ultimately answer to Tywin.

[A wilding]

I don't think Cersei was faking it. I suspect the notion of displaying weakness in front of Tyrion, even to manipulate him, is just outside her pychological framework. She's also does it at the point where she concedes to Tyrion in sending Myrcella away so she is willingly not getting her way here. Cersei is the only POV I lack sympathy for-- mostly because she inflicts everything I might feel for her about on to Sansa. I like your take on her reacting to a loss of control, but I'm also curious what people who feel more sympathetic to Cersei view this as. We don't get a Cersei POV until next book so she's still a big mystery at this point and that mystery creates a void that is filled with reader's suspicions.

I don't think Cersei was faking it either, because she didn't achieve anything by it. If she was faking it she would have cried all over Tyrion's shoulder, thus gaining some small leverage to manipulate him. As it was she just alienated him further.

As someone who is probably more favourable to Cersei than most: this scene didn't make her more sympathetic to me exactly, but it did mark the point at which I began to feel a certain pity for her. She is so isolated and alone that she can't accept an attempt at a kindly gesture from her own brother.

[A wilding]

Off topic but I'm mildly interested that we universally read Aerys II as mad, bad and dangerous to know on account of his burning people alive but a good number of people still like Stannis.

Aerys burnt people for kicks and got a thrill out of it.

Stannis reluctantly allows it in order to achieve his political aims.

[Blisscraft]

Tyrion at the moment is acting as his father's proxy - apparently that position includes management of diplomacy in its portfolio of responsibilities.

The Lannisters at this point are still doing their best to maintain the polite fiction that they are just loyal vassals of the Iron Throne. Because of that, King's Landing remains the center of policy-making decisions, even if they ultimately answer to Tywin.

:agree:

Tyrion seems to have concluded that the position of Hand includes management of diplomacy in its portfolio of responsibilities.

[Lummel]

...Don't mean to be harsh. It's just the way I see this particular meeting. Really all of that slapping didn't work on Tyrion, why not just pluck down and have a good cry? ;)

It doesn't worry me. I can see that. She's lost out in her struggle for power and recognition. Even the younger dwarf brother has managed to outmanoeuvre her, her daughter has been sold off as she was for political reasons. It's a point of breakdown. If only temporarily.

[Ragnorak]

Off topic but I'm mildly interested that we universally read Aerys II as mad, bad and dangerous to know on account of his burning people alive but a good number of people still like Stannis.

Criticizing Stannis? Why Lummel, you look like you've lost weight. You can't weigh more than a duck...

We do get characters who respect Stannis-- Ned for example. No one really says anything positive about Aerys. The praise is always directed at Rhaegar. We also get stories like "fire will be my champion" which is just a tad steeped in the crazy. It is still curious that the point Stannis starts to seem likable is around the point he starts burning people.

What strikes me about the Mad King references is that Tyrion has already concluded that Joffrey is just as mad. He's simply trying to keep Joffrey ignorant of the knowledge to manifest his madness-- or at least manifest it in a way that people will connect to the Mad King come again. Tyrion's ban on feasting is hardly a form of rationing. For the nobility behind their walls "doing without" means no butter. It is a "floppy ears" decree which brings to mind Joffrey killing rabbits last chapter. South of the Neck the notion of Winter Rations seems either unheard of or unthinkable.

The opening of the next chapter is Bran on Dancer so we see Tyrion's gift bearing fruit. In the prior chapter we see Lommy finally discover what happens when the smallfolk yield. In some ways these are the two sides of Tyrion.

That was the way of war. The smallfolk were slaughtered, while the highborn were held for ransom. Remind me to thank the gods that I was born a Lannister.

This is an interesting line. Tyrion reflects on this gratitude frequently, but his thoughts on the highborn aren't entirely accurate. His uncle Stafford will die in battle not get ransomed. Robb and Cat will be slaughtered at the Red Wedding. The highborn Lollys will meet the fate of the Riverlands at the hands of the smallfolk and if his nephew Tyreck is alive he never gets ransomed. Your odds are certainly better as a highborn and a Lannister in particular but war's long fingers touch all.

@A wildling Was this the very first time you felt pity for Cersei? I'm curious. The only prior humanizing event I recall is when she is with Ned in the Godswood and that doesn't seem designed to evoke sympathy like her breakdown in this chapter.

[Blisscraft]

It doesn't worry me. I can see that. She's lost out in her struggle for power and recognition. Even the younger dwarf brother has managed to outmanoeuvre her, her daughter has been sold off as she was for political reasons. It's a point of breakdown. If only temporarily.

It's funny because really to this point Cersei has been painted as a very bad person. She's killed her husband/king; cuckolded him with her brother; produced three illegitimate heirs to the throne; abetted the attempted murder of a child; permited her 13 year old to order and carry out the execution of a beloved goverment official; lied and schemed; is presently having sex with her cousin. :dunno:

Ragonorak - Are you familiar with the Billie Holiday song, "Strange Fruit?" When I read the chapter about all of those "fruits" in the bowels of KL I can't help but think about it; especially the overripe ones.

[Lummel]

Yes this is the chapter with this:

He bid Hallyne farewell and waddled down to where Timett son of Timett waited with an escort of Burned Men...their scars struck terror in the hearts of the city rabble. That was all to the good these days. Only three nights past, another mob had gathered at the gates of the Red Keep, chanting for food. Joff had unleashed a storm of arrows against them, slaying four, and then shouted down that they had his leave to eat their dead. Winning us still more friends.

That gives us a sense of the Lannisters crushed between the enemy without and hunger within. The only fruit they have is of the explosive kind.

Not surprising that King's Landingers are seeing Tyrion as a Demon as he's escorted around by the demonic looking Burnt Men either. He's, unknown to himself, playing up to his reputation here.

[Ragnorak]

It's funny because really to this point Cersei has been painted as a very bad person. She's killed her husband/king; cuckolded him with her brother; produced three illegitimate heirs to the throne; abetted the attempted murder of a child; permited her 13 year old to order and carry out the execution of a beloved goverment official; lied and schemed; is presently having sex with her cousin. :dunno:

Ragonorak - Are you familiar with the Billie Holiday song, "Strange Fruit?" When I read the chapter about all of those "fruits" in the bowels of KL I can't help but think about it; especially the overripe ones.

Yes, "Strange Fruit" is a great connection. Masha Heddle was the first but hardly the last.

What are we to make of the "fire" connection between the wildfyre at the opening and the doomsaying begging brother? Bathe in wine or burn in fire. We have Sandor's trial which is certainly a cleansing fire-- ironlically of the heretic Red Rooloo variety not the Seven. It fits well with the christianity model of the Seven and the firey wrath of hell but clearly implies the Red God. Both Tyrion and Sandor bathe in wine to try an cleanse themselves, but I suspect there's a clear wine metaphor that won't come until I drink more coffee.

[Blisscraft]

Ragonorak - In addition to the green wildfyre and the doomsday preacher et al that you mentioned above, there is the appearance of the comet, "the fuzzy red wound in the sky," over the "distant castle on Aegon's High Hill. . . with the comet hanging forebodingly over its towers." We have been below in the tunnels not only most recently with Tyrion to visit the pyromancers, but also before with Tyrion following Varys to visit Shae. Look above and despair! There's fire in the sky! It's "corruption." Thank you, Lummel.

Something about a body in wine brings out the Catholic school child in me. Body and Blood? Transubstantiation? Christ our passover is sacrificed for us?

[Lummel]

To be able to bathe in wine you have to labour in the vineyard of the Lord. The bathing is the end product of redemptive labour.

Here in this chapter the fruit and the fire are both connected by King Aerys' extra ripe collection gathered from beneath the holy Sept. The resulting great fire will be transformative, although not I think redemptive.

Something else struck me about R'hllor, but I've forgotten what...

[Little Wing]

Hello everyone! Just a quick thought on the names issue:

Datepalm, WInter's Knight, and Lummel - I've often thought the same thing about the differences between the "twins" and Tryion. It's stuck out like a sore thumb. Jaime and Cersei aren't even like most twin names that I'm accostomed to hearing. Usually, twin names are something like Luke and Laura or John and Jane or David and Deborah, even with fraternal twins there is a "matching" quality. Not in this story.

As for the "Tyrian" purple, I found it amusing since we've spent some time discussing plums and purples recently. I have no idea if it's an accident or not with reference to Tryion's name or origins (another failed attempt at humor, I suppose). :bawl:

What if Joanna and Tywin didn't know that they were getting twins, and upon their birth, out of surprise and joy for getting twins perhaps opted not to go for a Ty- name/s but for something different as Winter's Knight has said? Although some names like Joanna, Jaime, Janei, Joy, Genna, Gerion are quite often used as well. But it does seem that by not giving the twins Ty- names a new trend starts to develop because then we have Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella. Although they are supposed to be Baratheons, I guess it would still be traditional to have a Ty- name for one boy at least. So this may point to a change/identity crisis in the Lannister clan :dunno:

ETA: Forgot to ask - when is the next Tyrion chapter due to be read?

[Lummel]

Hello Little Wing!

The last chapter was Tyrion V (ACOK) and was posted yesterday, we try to do two per week so it will be a few more days. You can dive in with that chapter or something coming out of the earlier chapters if you like :)

I don't think Joffrey, Myrcella and tommen are particularly Baratheon names either. I mean there are no earlier baratheons with those names that we know of. It seems like a totally new start unconnected with either the traditions of the baratheons or the lannisters.

[Little Wing]

Thanks, Lummel, will do. Wonderful posts here by the way! :)

Indeed, and the children themselves are worlds apart from both family's traditions...

[butterbumps!]

Sorry for the delay-- I had a terrible work week....

Tyrion VI

overview

Tyrion comes to Cersei’s chambers to give her an update on the state of affairs, as well as some poison. Through laughter, he finally manages to announce that Stannis has left Dragonstone, and is marching against Renly rather than KL. Merriment ensues. Tyrion pours Cersei some celebratory wine, adding some recently pilfered poison in order to keep her away from court the next day.

The next day, Cersei is “indisposed,” enabling Tyrion to deal with the terms of peace Robb Stark has sent through Cleos. Tyrion rejects the offer sent by Robb, and counters with a set of extreme terms of his own. Ser Alliser Thorne brings forward a case, beseeching the Throne to supply aid to the Watch. The wight’s hand he had brought as evidence has rotted, making Thorne appear to be a crackpot. Alliser’s pleas sound like a joke, and Tyrion is suspicious of taking news of the supernatural seriously in public. He does, however, give Alliser any men from the prisons, and sends him on his way.

Later that night, Tyrion meets up with his Stone Crows, Moon Brothers and Timett to deal with Pycelle. At midnight they break into his chambers loudly, disrupting Pycelle in coitus with a serving girl. Shagga shaves Pycelle, while Tyrion questions him sharply about his involvement in several plots. As he steals a few more bottles of poison, Tyrion thinks he probably ought to have followed his father’s advice and beheaded all three counselors at the outset.

observations

• When Tyrion arrives at Cersei’s chambers, Lancel is singing “Seasons of My Love” for her.
  
• This is something that has always struck me as odd. When Tyrion allows Alliser to take imprisoned men, it is observed that the dungeons are pretty empty. Yet, we hear endlessly that the city is full of criminals. We even hear that Cersei has jailed 6 particularly noisy Begging Brothers spreading the incest tales in the cells at the start of this chapter. One would think that the jails should be filled to the brim.
  
• Tyrion feasts with the Stone Crows and Moon Brothers just before shaving time. He refrains from wine, however, preferring to keep his wits in tact.
  
• Pycelle tells Tyrion that he knows things about the Eunuch that would chill one’s blood. I’d really like to learn more of this blood-chilling info.
  

analysis

“Grinning like a harvest day pumpkin”

We have another Tyrion-Cersei “heartwarming” moment, as Tyrion delivers the news of Stannis’ march on Renly. When Tyrion tells her that Stannis has beseiged Storm’s End, and that Renly is going to meet him, Cersei clutches Tyrion’s arms tightly, incredulous at the news. When she is satisfied that this is true, she pulls him from the bed, they twirl together and she even hugs him, exalted. What a difference from their last “heartwarming” exchange, where Cersei recoils from Tyrion’s efforts to comfort her with mild physical contact. She initiates physical contact with him here, and takes it to an extreme in her jubilation.

They gleefully discuss why Renly and Stannis would never join forces, including the fact that Robert purposely withheld Storm’s End from Stannis: “It was meant to be a slight.” As an aside, I don’t believe this is true. As the Baratheon ancestral seat, Storm’s End would be much easier to hold than Dragonstone, the seat of the Baratheon enemy during RR. Given that Renly was a child at the time, and Stannis a competent commander, it only makes sense that Dragonstone would go to the brother most capable of keeping order there. Further, once the Baratheon dynasty took the Throne, the line transcended Storm’s End to the line for the Throne; Dragonstone is the ancestral seat of the IT, so Robert was effectively naming Stannis next of kin.

Tyrion ironically asks, “Shall we raise a cup to brotherly love?” as he prepares some laxative-laced wine for Cersei. As he drinks with her, he notices how beautiful she is when happy like this. He wonders if this is the Cersei that Jaime sees, implying that Tyrion never sees this disarming and joyful side of her. Her appearance inspires him to repeat the “Seasons of My Love” refrain Lancel had been singing: “I loved a maid as fair as summer, with sunlight in her hair.” Tyrion thinks that he “almost felt sorry for poisoning her.”

Tyrion looked down on them all

While eating breakfast, he gets news that Cersei is indisposed (as she’s taken laxatives). We find out later that he also rendered Joffrey “indisposed” for the day by providing him with a 3-headed crossbow the boy can’t wait to use. By removing potential interference from Cersei and Joffrey, Tyrion has given himself carte-blanche to deal with the peace terms Cleos has delivered.

He mounts the IT, thinking of its one redeeming virtue: “It was high.” This enables a lofty vantage point from which to gaze down on his court: “Tyrion looked down on them all, and found he liked it.” As he calls forth Cleos from the crowd, he thinks, “A pity Shae could not be here to see this,” but reminds himself the danger that would have brought. Without this coming across as criticism, I think it’s worth noting that Tyrion is highly amenable to being seen as powerful and in control. He temporarily “disposed” of Cersei and Joff, either of whom would take the Throne seat in lieu of Tyrion if present. He wishes Shae could see him looking so impressive.

Tyrion gives Cleos a list of “mock” demands to bring back to Robb, fully aware that Robb would never consent these terms. This exchange is basically a publicity stunt. Tyrion’s counter-offer is so absurd, that it effectively advertises the Lannister position as infallible and unthreatened by the follies of the Stark boy. Indeed, this session is both a news-reel and propaganda for the Lannister cause, as Tyrion reports on his father’s position, Stannis and Renly’s marches against each other, and the fact that Dorne is now allied with the Lannisters.

Among the counter-offers, Tyrion includes a clause that offers 4 Northmen for every 2 Lannisters returned from the premise that, “two Lannisters are worth four Northmen in any season.” Though the Starks would technically gain from this measure, the message behind this is meant to be demoralizing. It should also recall Tywin’s words to Tyrion on the subject of Tysha: Tyrion paid her in gold because a Lannister is worth more. Cleos prompts Tyrion on the subject of Sansa and Arya. He “felt a stab of pity” as he looks at Sansa, but says that they will remain until Jaime is freed.

Tyrion allows Ned’s bones to be returned as a gesture of “good faith,” but in reality, this is anything but. He announces that the Red Cloaks will escort Cleos and the bones to Riverrun. This is the real reason he needed Cersei “indisposed,” as she would never allow her personal guard to leave KL. This ploy is twofold: to get rid of Cersei’s guard to cement his monopoly on power, and a plot to free Jaime.

“Does he mean to mock me with this folly?”

Mormont had chosen to send Alliser to KL based on the assumption that Alliser’s aristocratic attitude would play well with the Lannister court. The Tyrion-Alliser dynamic strikes me as another example of Tyrion’s supposed deviation from his family. Tyrion sees Alliser for what he truly is, and is not swayed by how important the man was in the past.

A few chapters earlier, when word that a Black Brother had arrived in KL for audience, Tyrion’s immediate reaction had been to see the man immediately in his private chambers, hoping it was Yoren. He chose to ignore Alliser indefinitely because of his personal distaste for the man. Had it been anyone other than Alliser, Tyrion could have heard the supernatural component of the plea in private, without fear of appearing to be “afraid of grumkins and snarks.” This could have had significant consequences.

Instead, Alliser has to make his case in front of the whole court, and Tyrion is placed in an uncomfortable position given that “a dwarf enjoys at best a tenuous hold on dignity.” He even wonders if LF or Varys set this up as a joke. Though we see that he does consider the possibility of Alliser’s story to be real, he can’t possibly make it appear that he takes this supernatural threat seriously in front of the audience. He allows Alliser to take the contents of the jails, and to send his regard to Jon and Jeor. Displeased, Alliser tries to block Tyrion’s exit, still asking to be taken seriously. Tyrion reminds him that he did agree to give support, and even suggests recruiting more men by offering the starving city the promise of food in the NW.

One other curious issue here is Tyrion’s free admission of Joffrey’s follies. When Alliser initially demanded to see the king directly, Tyrion informs the court that Joff is playing with his new crossbow. This strikes me as counterproductive. Tyrion is in KL strengthening the Lannister cause, not the Tyrion cause. By undermining Joff’s strength, and calling attention to how irresponsible and childish he is, it does not speak well for the Lannister authority. And, it should be noted that Tyrion’s authority derives from Lannister authority. I understand that it reinforces Tyrion’s appearance of being in control, but I think mentioning Joff’s folly here is not the smartest move.

“Leave me out of your next deception.”

As the court files out, Varys and LF speak with Tyrion. Varys lavishes Tyrion with praise for how he conducted business.

LF is not so charitable, and clearly holding a grudge. LF realized he’d been played when Tyrion announced Mycella’s marriage to Trystane, and tells Tyrion to leave him out of his next deception. Tyrion glances down at LF’s dagger, thinking “Only if you’ll do the same for me.” Two chapters ago, when Tyrion laid the seeds for this deception, he and LF had a tense moment where LF basically flaunted the fact he’d set up Tyrion with the dagger. They both knew that they both knew what was going on. But now LF lashes out like a little schoolboy over the fact that someone has played him? Seriously, LF is upset that this is somehow not fair, that he’s the only one allowed to set people up?

Tyrion and Varys discuss the plans for the removal of the Red Cloaks. He wants Varys to tell Cersei that removing her guard is part of a plan to rescue Jaime, as he plans to hide a thief, a mummer, a poisoner and a murder amongst them in plain sight. The four men escorting the bones in Lannister raiment will have access to Riverrun, with the idea that they will break Jaime free unnoticed. I find it interesting that Tyrion pawns the duty of informing Cersei off to Varys. I also find the precise details of Tyrion’s plans interesting, as it would appear he’s learning a lot from Varys here: hiding in plain sight is exactly Varys’ MO.

I have to say that this is an unfortunate plan from an ethical standpoint. It’s basically a Trojan Horse, but in this case, it is meant to appeal to standards of decency regarding a highly emotional issue of returning bodily remains. I understand that this is war, but I find this plan distasteful. It strikes me as similar to people who pretend to be blind to solicit help crossing the street only to pickpocket the good Samaritans who take pity and offer help. It preys of expectations of decency and good faith, and guarantees that everything the Lannisters won’t be taken as truth. It doesn’t work anyway, but I always found the fact that Tyrion thought to do this was extremely wretched.

The Barber of Pycelle

Pycelle is cornered and naked as Tyrion begins the questioning. Pycelle tries to blame Varys and LF for telling Cersei, but Tyrion informs him of the ploy he pulled, letting him know that he was the only one who knew the Myrcella-Dorne detail. As Shagga cuts more of Pycelle’s beard, the master becomes more forthcoming with information.

Pycelle insists that he has done everything for the sake of House Lannister, and surprises Tyrion by confessing that he implored Aerys to open the gates: “For the realm! Once Rhaegar died, the war was done. Aerys was mad, Viserys too young, Prince Aegon a babe at the breast, but the realm needed a king…I prayed it should be your good father, but Robert was too strong, and Lord Stark moved too swiftly.”

Despite the fact that Pycelle has confessed to a history of supporting the Lannister cause, Tyrion is outraged by the maester’s series of betrayals. Pycelle admits to contributing to Robert’s death, and explains his justifications to Tyrion:

[Robert] was a wretched king…vain, drunken, lecherous…he would have set your sister aside, his own queen…Renly was plotting to bring the Highgarden maid to court to entice his brother…

Probed further, Tyrion learns that Arryn knew of the incest, and was moving pieces into place to act, such as sending Sweet Robin to Dragonstone and Lysa to the Eyrie. He denies poisoning Arryn directly, admitting only that he knew Arryn was poisoned and removed the maester who was purging him in order to let the Tears of Lys run their course:

The queen needed Lord Arryn dead, she did not say so, could not, Varys was listening, always listening, but when I looked at her, I knew. It was not me who gave him the poison though, I swear it. Varys will tell you, it was the boy, his squire, Hugh he was called, he must surely have done it, ask your sister, ask Varys.

I actually wonder what Pycelle’s motivations have been. I understand that all he has done has been for House Lannister, but is all of this truly out of some blind loyalty to this particular house or something more, I wonder? Tywin was more than amenable to the thought of executing all the counselors, which would suggest that Pycelle’s alleged loyalty is not understood as such by Tywin. In Pycelle’s explanations, I got a “king-maker” vibe, such that he has ideas of what a good king should be and works toward putting the man he sees fit in place. Perhaps his loyalty to the Lannisters stems from his believing Tywin to be the best candidate for the job, rather than blind devotion to the House. It is quite curious at any rate.

Even though Pycelle’s confession does place him on the Lannister side, Tyrion is “disgusted” and commands Pycelle to be taken to the black cells. Before leaving, he takes a few more bottles of poison, and considers getting a replacement for Pycelle from the Citadel.

With the exception of the infodump, I don’t believe Tyrion accomplished all that much from either his deception or punishing Pycelle. He thinks that Pycelle “was the one I’d hoped to trust.” But honestly, did he learn that Pycelle was untrustworthy? I understand that Tyrion must gain power over Cersei as part of the means by which he can further Lannister objectives, but isn’t the shaving incident rather counter-productive? Tyrion’s big “take-away” from all of this is that Varys and LF are likely no more loyal, but “only more subtle, and thus far more dangerous.” I can see some virtue in the fact that Tyrion hatched this to figure out where each of the counselor’s true loyalty resides. But, ironically, the only counselor to expose himself is the one whose loyalty is to Tyrion’s own cause. And he removed the counselor who proved to be the least threatening on top of all of this. This leaves Varys and LF’s motivations far more mysterious, and compels them to be even more cautious and subtle than before he pulled this stunt.

[Fire Eater]

Nice job as always butterbumps!

“Leave me out of your next deception.”

This could be one of the things that spurs LF to frame Tyrion for Joffrey's murder, and remove him from the game. LF knows that Tyrion is the only person who has some idea about how dangerous he is, and Tyrion's ploy proved to LF just how dangerous Tyrion can be to him.

[Lummel]

:cheers: 2000 posts Butterbumps! :cheers:

It struck me that we get quite a few mentions of Lannisters on the Iron Throne: Tyrion here, Cersei in her dream, Tywin in Stannis' recollections, Joffrey that time he cuts himself and Jaime as remembered by the The Ned. By contrast I don't think King Bob is ever seen on the Iron Throne while The Ned sits on it once if I remember.

correctly.

Petyr's petulance is really interesting here, it's as though he can't contain his outrage. It seems odd. The man has deep enough roots in Kings landing that he can dig in against Tyrion if he wants and given his earlier comments about the dagger he knows that Tyrion knows that he knows that Tyrion knows whose the dagger was (I looked for the obligatory 'Yes Minister' clip but couldn't find it :( ).

Interesting reliance on Varys to feed information to Cersei, presumably with the illusion of this being surreptitious - psst, your Brother has added a mummer, a thief, a poisoner etc...

Littlefinger and Tyrion are clearly opposed by this stage while Tyrion is closely tied into Varys.

I don't share your ethical concerns here Butterbumps! I'm not sure if this is something cultural or just an age difference, brought up on escape from Colditz and the like I'm probably too used to the idea that it is the soldiers' duty to escape by whatsoever means possible. It seem rather cunning, although he should probably have included some prize winning rowers and sailors to have improved their chances of getting away from Riverrun. Although on the downside the lives of the Lannister soldiers included in the escort would probably have been forfeited had they succeed in getting away.