Becoming No One: Re-reading Arya

[The Sleeper]

Initiates, like Arya, often have something done to their hair. Unsually, it is cut or covered. Syrio began Arya's initiation. Yoren is another teacher who strips away who she thinks she is in order for her to transform to her true self.

True enough, this the first personna she adopts. It seems she is still searching. About her true self. Arya's fate in Winterfell, as a lord's daughter would have been eventually to be married off, an existence she has already rejected, as we have seen with her dialog with her father previously. Indeed, by this point, she is btrohted to Elmar Frey as part of the deal to gain his House's allegince to house Stark. Despite the fact that she still yearns for Winterfell and her circumstances were tramautic, it seems to me that her choices as well, consistenlty lead her to this. I can't help but think that this is her natural condition and environment and she develops in ways that she would never have been able otherwise.

[Lummel]

Regarding Gendry. After thinking about this my suspicion is that Gendry is Varys way of turning Ned into a sleeper agent of sorts. Gendry is proof of Joffrey's bastard status and Varys arranges to plant that proof next to Ned at the Wall. Ned will have that proof and will also be haunted by that proof everyday. When Aegon eventually arrives and the incest is made public, Varys can offer Ned a way out given his confession was fake and equal to a vow made at swordpoint and essentially win the North to Aegon's cause or at least neutrality. After Ned is killed I don't think Gendry matters much to Varys anymore...

and The Ned swears by the seven and not the old gods at Baelor's. I know a pedantic distinction, but some lies I've heard are "not without honour". If Varys then gave away Gendry to Cersei and the Gold Cloaks as a tit bit (sorry for anticipating) then it's an example of a fairly flexible approach. He's sweating his assets.

[total1402]

GRRM is stated as saying that he does not like bad fantasy he castigated the warrior princess in a chainmail bikini, who in that reality would get chopped in two with a longsword. You needed brute strength to fight a la middle ages (voila Brienne); but women could fight with other weapons (sand snakes), it was just very very rare.”

I'am sorry if I'am going a bit off-topic here, but that comment caught my attention. Does that mean Martin also objects to things like, I don't know, unarmoured female jedi not being cut down and superheroes like Wonder Woman? Because, I don't really think there are that many instances of "women in chainmail bikinis" outside of illustrations on magic the gathering cards or D&D; which is meant to be surreal by definition. Most fantasy books I read tend to stress the physical weakness of female heroes vis a vis their male counterparts; especially as an obstacle to be overcome; if iwarrior women are used at all. The one exception I read earlier was a warhammer novel called Valkia and the reason she is that strong is because she has blessings of a god of war. By the end she becomes a demon in pretty flimsy looking armour; but kills dozens of people pretty easily). Can you really apply a realistic judgement to something like that? It just feels a slightly silly line of thought to take. Its a bit like Martin arguing that he didn't want six limbed dragons (four legs and two wings) because it wasn't in keeping with nature and therefore unrealistic (most animals n reptiles have 4 limbs). WTH, a dragon is a magical creature. :) Nothing that big could ever fly, reptiles do not behave like dogs, no animal breathes magic fire and anything that tough would be so heavy it could never fly. It just strikes me as a very odd attitude to take by applying "realism" where its being explicitly broken.

[Daenerys is my queen]

I don't think so. Jon beating his fellow trainees comes and is indeed presented as a display of arrogance and spite. Arya beating Hot Pie is hysteria. Jon's violence is cerebral, constant, and controlled, Arya's violence, in this case as in the Tickler's, is a violent emotional burst* however controlled she thinks she is. If not stopped, Arya would kill, Jon would only show how superior he is.

A better comparison, probably, would be Jon beating Iron Emmet, as it's also a sublimation of other feelings into literally mindless violence. Can probably also be likened to her beating Sansa at Darry.

*I'm not playing into "females are emotional creatures", most of Arya's future and past displays of violence until the Tickler and Dareon were cold, controlled actions. Of course, Arya channeling her feelings into violence is something she does share with men in general (despite her jealousy of Sansa's feminine skills, everything she does realtes to traditionally masculine values).

Arya was definitely acting very emotional in that scene. But there are certainly scenes when she is more controlled. And imo there's nothing wrong with being emotional. Everyone has emotions and sometimes they get the best of us. :dunno:

[Lyanna Stark]

Arya was definitely acting very emotional in that scene. But there are certainly scenes when she is more controlled. And imo there's nothing wrong with being emotional. Everyone has emotions and sometimes they get the best of us. :dunno:

Please recall that this is a reread thread. If you bring up scenes you wish to hold up as contrasts, quote them from the text or at least make a short summary of the context so the other posters know what you are referring to.

[Daenerys is my queen]

Please recall that this is a reread thread. If you bring up scenes you wish to hold up as contrasts, quote them from the text or at least make a short summary of the context so the other posters know what you are referring to.

I was just replying to the other poster, I wasn't bringing up anything new...

[Lyanna Stark]

I was just replying to the other poster, I wasn't bringing up anything new...

Unfortunately it is difficult to know what exactly you were referring to since you didn't leave a reference to a specific occurrence, quote or section. You mentioned scenes in which she was more controlled, but did not say which. Hence it is difficult to continue the discussion based on the text if no reference to it is given. A reread thread is by its nature going to be very close to the text and examining the text. That is what sets them apart from other, more general threads.

Arya's control or lack thereof is also one of the main debated topics and something that continues through her story line, so when discussing it, using references to the text, like for instance when she hits Joffrey over the head at the Trident, or when she is using the control Syrio taught her to cross the yard when the gold cloaks are near, is very useful since otherwise, the textual analysis is lacking.

[Daenerys is my queen]

Unfortunately it is difficult to know what exactly you were referring to since you didn't leave a reference to a specific occurrence, quote or section. You mentioned scenes in which she was more controlled, but did not say which. Hence it is difficult to continue the discussion based on the text if no reference to it is given. A reread thread is by its nature going to be very close to the text and examining the text. That is what sets them apart from other, more general threads.

Arya's control or lack thereof is also one of the main debated topics and something that continues through her story line, so when discussing it, using references to the text, like for instance when she hits Joffrey over the head at the Trident, or when she is using the control Syrio taught her to cross the yard when the gold cloaks are near, is very useful since otherwise, the textual analysis is lacking.

Ok. But I can't really do that since I don't have my GoT book. I lent it to someone and they're still reading it and haven't given it back yet. I guess I'll go back to reading the thread and not commenting until you get up to books after GoT where I can provide quotes from the books as well. :)

[brashcandy]

Ok. But I can't really do that since I don't have my GoT book. I lent it to someone and they're still reading it and haven't given it back yet. I guess I'll go back to reading the thread and not commenting until you get up to books after GoT where I can provide quotes from the books as well. :)

You don't always have to make a specific quote, just highlight the particular incident you're thinking of :) It's not meant to discourage you from participating, but we do need to be fairly precise considering that it's a re-read thread and we want to advance the discussion and promote greater understanding of Arya's storyline. We're unto ACOK now, so feel free to read ahead and collect your points in advance.

[Errant Bard]

Arya was definitely acting very emotional in that scene. But there are certainly scenes when she is more controlled.

This is nothing I have not said in the very quote you're replying to. Not sure what's your point. The focus of the post you quoted was to make a difference between Jon showing off to the pleb in a controlled fashion and Arya basically going berserk, in that particular scene.

[Daenerys is my queen]

You don't always have to make a specific quote, just highlight the particular incident you're thinking of :) It's not meant to discourage you from participating, but we do need to be fairly precise considering that it's a re-read thread and we want to advance the discussion and promote greater understanding of Arya's storyline. We're unto ACOK now, so feel free to read ahead and collect your points in advance.

Ok. :)

[Zacker]

I don't think so. Jon beating his fellow trainees comes and is indeed presented as a display of arrogance and spite. Arya beating Hot Pie is hysteria. Jon's violence is cerebral, constant, and controlled, Arya's violence, in this case as in the Tickler's, is a violent emotional burst* however controlled she thinks she is. If not stopped, Arya would kill, Jon would only show how superior he is.

A better comparison, probably, would be Jon beating Iron Emmet, as it's also a sublimation of other feelings into literally mindless violence. Can probably also be likened to her beating Sansa at Darry.

It is intersting how the fight goes down. They pick on her for her appearance, for her lack of reaction which they mistake for fear. We see from her thoughts that each touches on a recent event that has left a mark. What prompts Arya's reaction eventually is perceived insults to Needle and Jon. Indeed, Needle is her only tangible link to her identity. Even then she tries to placate Hot Pie by offering her practice sword. However, Hot Pie makes a grab for Needle. This is where the line is drawn. Syrio's lessons have taken root. She puts down Hot Pie in two moves and turns to threaten Lommy, making her stand.

Up to now, Hot Pie had only tried to intimidate her. Now he is angy and hurt and tries to physically assault her. Undeterred, Arya makes use of her skills and gives into midless rage, after she put him down for good. At this point she just wanted to hit something. Her composure has been gradually ground down to nothing.

Yoren intervenes and puts things back into perspective.

When I was a kid, a long time ago, I often used to go and play with a boy who lived some ways off. One day he told me there was a new girl in the neighborhood that he liked to tease and make fun of. Some time after we (two boys) met her (younger girl) and my friend started poking fun at her, the usual I suppose. She wasn't having any, though. She had a dog with her, a german shepherd. Big. Before I even realized what happened she let it loose on us. Goddamn, we ran for our lives and escaped death by the narrowest of margins.

Needless to say, after that she was the Goddess Of Fuc En Awesome!

My friend grew up to be a psycho and the girl became a famous artist.

Kids are crazy. I mean that in the nicest way possible. Some in this thread seem to forget that Arya is a child (quoted posters neither included, nor excluded, I can't remember who wrote what anyway).

[Milady of York]

Sadly I don't have the book with me (about Medieval marriage and families) and will have to look up the relevant parts later, but there is a passage about the education of girls by St Jerome where it is dated that they should be encouraged and not chastised for being slow to pick up skills.

Good that you mentioned St. Jerome, Rapsie; this way we have examples of educational precepts from a very cultivated septon who was interested in the education of girls. In one of his letters, titled Ad Laetam, de institutione filiae –To Leta: On the Education of Girls– St. Jerome gives this advice:

“Offer prizes for good spelling and draw her onwards with little gifts such as children of her age delight in. And let her have companions in her lessons to excite emulation in her, that she may be stimulated when she sees them praised. You must not scold her if she is slow to learn but must employ praise to excite her mind, so that she may be glad when she excels at others and sorry when she is excelled by them.” [Emphasis is mine]

And he also states this:

“Above all you must take care not to make her lessons distasteful to her lest a dislike for them conceived in childhood may continue into her maturer years.” [Emphasis is mine]

Both quotes show the extent of Septa Mordane’s failure as an educator, and highlight that septas and septons weren’t supposed to use the methods this one did, as per the church’s own precepts, ones like those St. Jerome specifically recommended. They were supposed to create a good environment in which the child would feel stimulated to learn, and to encourage her through praise and emulation, not shaming.

[1234567]

@ Milady

Excellent! Pretty sure the thing I saw by him was fairly similar. It does prove that good education techniques were practiced even in the Middle Ages, where the stereotype is the other way.

[Lyanna Stark]

Arya II - ACOK

Summary:

Arya is travelling with Yoren and the men bound for the Wall through the Crownlands. Through Arya's eyes, we see the refugees streaming towards Kings Landing, and they will later crowd the streets when Tyrion is trying to work on the defences of Kings Landing in ACOK, and perhaps be living in the shanty towns that Tyrion eventually had torn down.

We see young men and women, old men and women, mothers, fathers and even a smith. All the people of the Seven seem to be streaming towards Kings Landing.

We also get the first reports of real war from north of Kings Landing when a merchant stops to talk to Yoren. Then come the graves, the first one of a small child, but later on there are more graves. Gendry stops Lommy from looting the graves. Even Arya's travelling companions arent immune to death, and one of them dies and is buried.

When they come to an inn, Arya is to worried to reveal her identity to have a bath. We also learn a bit more about the Wall, in that they have no peppers on the wall, apparently. Yoren also thinks that the Watch taking no part makes him and the rest of the group immune to the Tully/Lannister fighting in the Riverlands.

We also see Arya recognising her Tully heritage:

Lord Tully is my grandfather, Arya thought. It mattered to her, but she chewed her lip and kept quiet, listening.

We also hear word that Robb has joined the fighting, and the rumours are he rides to war on a big wolf. Further reports of wolves are of real ones growing braver, and we can probably draw the conclusion that this is about Nymeria and her pack. Arya suspects, or wishes, that it is Nymeria.

A she-wolf. Arya sloshed her beer, wondering. Was the god's Eye near the Trident? She wished she had a map.

Arya laments the lack of her wolf, and thinks Nymeria may hate her if they should ever meet again. She objects when someone claims wolves eat babies and yoren chucks her out of the inn. Outside, Jaqen talks to her for the first time.

"Boy," a friendly voice called out. "Lovely boy".

Jaqen asks her for another drink and apologises for Rorge and Biter being rude. He also points out she has no other friends and could make one, if she chose to. Biter and Rorge are threatening, and Arya uses what Syrio told her to beat the fear and approach the wagon slowly. Then after Biter lunges, she hits him between the eyes. Jaqen notes that she ("he") has more bravery than sense and Gendry seems to agree.

"What are you doing?"

He raised his hands defensively. "Yoren said none of us should go near these three."

"They don't scare me," Arya said.

"Then you're stupid. They scare me." The Bull's hand fell to the hilt of his sword, and Biter began to laugh. "Let's get away from them".

She follows Gendry to the front of the inn and offers to fight him, but Gendry is not to keen, worried that he'd hurt her and then gold cloaks arrive. Again Arya draws on what Syrio taught her.

One was an officer; he wore black enamel breastplate ornamented wtih four golden disks. They drew up in front of the inn. Look withn your eyes, Syrio's voice seemed to whisper. Her eyes saw white lather under their saddles; the horses had been ridden long and hard. Calm as still water, she took the Bull by the arm and drew him back behind a tall flowering hedge.

It turns out the gold cloaks are looking for a boy meant for the Night's Watch. Suddenly, all the Night's Watch recruits are bandied together against them. Arya thinks she won't let them die for her like Syrio and steps out from the hedge where she hid together with Gendry. However the gold cloaks seem to be after Gendry, but Yoren is faster and threatens the officer. Arya is still not convinced Cersei is after Gendry, not her.

Arya was lost. "Why should she want him?"

The Bull scowled at her. "Why should she wantyou? You're nothing but a little gutter rat!"

"Well, you're nothing but a bastard boy!" Or maybe he was only pretending to be a bastard boy.

"What's your true name?"

"Gendry," he said, like he wasn't quite sure.

"Don't see why no one wants neither o' you," Yoren said, "but they can't have you regardless."

Yoren decides that Arya and Gendry will ride the two coursers and if more gold cloaks arrive, they are going to ride for the wall as fast as they can. Arya is concerned for Yoren however and that they might be after him too.

"Except for you," Arya pointed out. "That man said he'd take your head too."

"Well, as to that, "Yoren said, "if he can get it off my shoulders, he's welcome to it".

Analysis:

Travelogue & the suffering of the smallfolk: We get the first reports from Arya's perspective of the war. Throughout ACOK, Arya's travelogue will give us the perspective of the downtrodden peasants and the common people, and how devastating the war is for them and for the land they live of. Already this early on in ACOK, the first grave we encounter is that of a small child, and on its grave sits a crystal. The new life and the hope for new life perishes first. Like in winter when mothers smother their babies rather than see them die, wartime is a harsh time for new, brittle life. It gets no chance to grow and thrive. And the crystal, perhaps a sign of the faith of the Seven, does not help.

We also see that all but the Stranger are represented in the feeling people: maidens, mothers, crones, warriors (well, armed men), fathers, smiths, they all flee to Kings Landing, where we know only starvation awaits them. If the last Arya chapter in AGOT featured lots of sumptous food and autumnal harvest goods, even if Arya passes orchards and fields, we still get the distinct feeling that winter is about to come.

This is further enhanced in the wolf theme. Arya suspects it, and we readers can be fairly certain of it: the wolf roaming the Riverlands is Nymeria and her pack. Lord Mooton only barely got back living from an encounter with her and she is assembling a large pack of wolves around her too.

Gendry and Jaqen: We also get properly introduced to Gendry and Jaqen in this chapter. And unfortunately, to Rorge and Biter. Gendry comes off as someone who manages to keep his humanity and who is actually nice to Arya, and despite also not seeming terribly clever, he's got some common sense in that he's not bothered by confessing to being afraid of Rorge and Biter. A down to earth young man, he seems, Gendry, and despite his humble origins seems reasonably well brought up, since he prevents the others from looting the dead child's grave.

Jaqen this early comes off as a bit suspicious. Nice, but suspicious, and we don't know what he is after, although Arya thinking his talking reminds her of Syrio immidiately endears him to Arya and us readers alike. Jaqen in this way becomes almost the spiritual successor to Syrio, and the Braavosi theme in Arya's arc continues: from Needle through Syrio to Jaqen.

Arya of House Stark...and Tully: Normally, we see Sansa being associated with House Tully due to sharing her mother's looks. However, Arya is the one travelling the Riverlands, and she, not Sansa actually associates herself with the Tully family. Arya thinks to herself that Hoster Tully is her grandfather, and that she does care what happens. Another link between Arya and Cat? Arya may not look Tully, but she has more references in her chapters to a Tully heritage than Sansa. First the fish in the wolf's mouth, then she is chasing Cats, and now she clearly identifies with the Tullys and thinks that she cares. Later on, we also know she takes "Cat of the Canals" as her moniker, plus there are lots of water themes in Braavos, and fish live in water. Arya's links to her mother and her heritage remains strong throughout, I think.

Regarding heritage, Arya also seems loathe to drop the fact that she is important, and she has value. To herself, she is not at all a gutter rat. She immidiately thinks the gold cloaks are after her, and is baffled when she learns they are after Gendry. As of yet, she cannot drop that she is Arya of House Stark.

Foreshadowing:

A rather short chapter, so for once it didn't feel dense on the foreshadowing side. Perhaps other people can pick out more things:

Gendry and swords:

Come dark, they would make camp and eat by the light of the Red Sword.

Actually more a link to last chapter, where we know that Gendry named the comet the Red Sword. Is this perhaps a hint that Gendry will be associated with the "Red Swords" of Rh'llor? That he will reforge "the red sword" Lightbringer? Gendry also gets a sword in this chapter, since Yoren thinks he will be able to wield one. So lots of swords references here for Gendry, in other words. However, the type of swords seem to be different than Needle, although the sword Gendry got was also castle forged. Gendry is also constantly referred to as "The Bull" which somehow reminded me of "The White Bull" of the old Kingsguard. It seems Gendry's destiny points towards somethign with swords, and most likely that he will become a knight, or something similar? "The Red Bull"? (unfortunate connection with a certain energy drink not withstanding).

Arya, Gendry and bastards: Not sure if this ultimately relates to Gendry or Jon, but Arya thinks that he may only be pretending to be a bastard boy, and in a strange turn of phrase asks him for his "true name". Gendry's true name would most likely be Gendry Waters, and is no other Baratheon is left, and Stannis manages to name him heir in some odd twist of fath, then he would be Gendry Baratheon. Jon's true name is of course Jon Targaryen (if the theories of Lyanna and Rhaegar actually marrying are true), so the "pretending bastard boy" could theoretically be both Gendry and Jon. Both also seem somewhat linked to the comet, and the Azor Ahai mythos. It also gives us another insight into that while Arya may not be as fanciful as AGOT Sansa when it comes to stories, she certainly has some of old Nan's stories somewhere there as rerefence materials, or she would not think of pretending bastard boys who might actually be nobles.

Arya and death: Again Arya is connected to death, and death is all around her, yet it does not give her comfort this time.

One time Arya woke up in the dark, frightened for no reason she could name. Above, the Red Sword shared the sky with half a thousand stars. The night seemed oddly quiet to her, though she could hear Yoren's muttered snores, the crackle of fire, even the muffled stirrings of the donkeys. Yet somehow it felt as though the world were holding its breath, and the silence made her shiver. She went back to sleep clutching Needle.

In the morning we learn that Praed had died during the night, and Arya had noticed the abscence of his coughing.

Later on, Arya gets desensitized to death, but here it disturbs her, and the silence disturbs her. However, she seems hardened enough that Praed's death does not upset her in any meaningful way. She is getting used to the death and destruction that is setting in. Death is all around, literally.

There's also the Red Sword surrounded by half a thousand stars, maybe symbolising that whomever ends up being Azor Ahai will have the entire world circling around him or her.

Gender:

Arya here, like in the last chapter, goes as Arry the orphan boy, or Lumpyhead. Contrary to earlier chapters where Arya was quick to assert that she was indeed a girl, here we see her do the opposite, and embrace her cover. When the gold cloak calls her girl, she objects and claims to be a boy. Earlier on, she is also concerned enough with keeping her cover that she bows out of bathing. Arya is starting to realise that her cover identity as a boy is important if she wants to keep her life. (However, we also know from later chapters that Gendry knew from early on that she was a girl. Something to keep in mind for later discussion, if this affects Gendry's interactions with her.)

[Lyanna Stark]

I'am sorry if I'am going a bit off-topic here, but that comment caught my attention. Does that mean Martin also objects to things like, I don't know, unarmoured female jedi not being cut down and superheroes like Wonder Woman? Because, I don't really think there are that many instances of "women in chainmail bikinis" outside of illustrations on magic the gathering cards or D&D; which is meant to be surreal by definition. Most fantasy books I read tend to stress the physical weakness of female heroes vis a vis their male counterparts; especially as an obstacle to be overcome; if iwarrior women are used at all.

In fantasy inspired computer games, the chain mail bikini female warriors are extremely common, so a lot of it probably comes from there. For example here or here, taken from some of the most popular fantasy inspired computer games. Female fighters in chain mail bikini type armour is definitely fairly common as a concept within fantasy themed culture, even if most "serious" fantasy novels steer clear of them.

Then you have novels like Erikson's Malazan, where women are warriors on the same terms as men, more or less, and no real difference is made between them at all. They feel rather androgynous, on the whole. Interestingly he has some other interesting female characters (like Felisin) but the soldiers all feel quite a lot like genderless soldiers.

[Lummel]

I like Arya's unwillingness to cause the deaths of the creatures that she has living on her, some since flea bottom!

It's a bit of a shock moving back to the beginning of ACOK here when I'm just leaving it in rereading Tyrion, but this is the beginning of the sombre side of war and the repeated emphasis on the suffering of the smallfolk. Linked to this the consequences of that fight on the Trident. The direwolf isn't going to be tamed and brought into human society but instead will ravage the countryside just as the armies are. Little quarrels have big consequences - which I suppose is the story of the war.

Nice little detail of Arya missing Sansa and The Ned as she supps her beer. I'm interested in how fast the recruits associate with the Night's Watch. Yoren can trust them to be armed and even to stand watch at night (apart from the Black Cells three of course). Nobody runs off. Going to the Wall, harsh as it is, seems to be more acceptable than the alternatives.

[brashcandy]

Nice job Lyanna. You get the first feeling of Arya's new pack coming together in this chapter. Gendry draws her away from the men in the wagon, and even Hot Pie is willing to stand up to the gold cloaks from KL, earning himself a sword as a reward. Arya's quick temper and recklessness are also on display; she gets upset in the inn with the talk of the wolves eating babies, is easily goaded into beating Biter and later rushes out of hiding to confront the gold cloaks. Her anger over the story of the wolves highlights that although she's gradually becoming familiar with death and her own ability to cause it, she's not comfortable with the idea of innocents suffering.

Great point about how she associates herself with the Tullys in the chapter, considering it's Sansa who's always aligned with her mother's family. You really get the sense of the overwhelming despair and futility caused by the war. The people moving South imagine that they will find refuge and safety there, but we know more of the same awaits them. Going North doesn't promise anything better either. Ironically, the Wall stands out as a comforting symbol. We see in the last chapter Arya wishes she could get there before Winterfell, and now all the men band together to resist the gold cloaks. "Brotherhood" is important and the Wall has a long reach, despite its isolation and neglect in the past years.

[Lyanna Stark]

Yes, it is an interesting detail that Arya wishes for a detour to the Wall before she goes back to Winterfell. Seeing as how things look as of ADWD, she may very well get her wish.

[Errant Bard]

In this chapters, she again lets slip that she is important, for anyone who cares to see:

She knows the queen wants her, and Yoren confirms it (despite the Gold Cloaks not looking for her at all) by sending her away.

She basically admits that Arry is not her "true name" when she asks Gendry his.

First time that she is taught here that stealing the dead is OK, praed's stuff is divided among the party.

Funny to see Sansa portrayed once again as a high class snob (of course, she is one, yet the contrast here has to be deliberate,) pretending to dislike beer because wine is a finer beverage.