God - do you believe?

[SerMixalot]

So if god is NOT all loving, what makes him worthy of devotion.

If god is all loving, how can he justify the pain he submits us to?

[Larry of the Lawn]

So if god is NOT all loving, what makes him worthy of devotion.

If god is all loving, how can he justify the pain he submits us to?

Like a shirtless man on COPS, he beats you because he LOVES you.

[Castel]

So if god is NOT all loving, what makes him worthy of devotion.

If god is all loving, how can he justify the pain he submits us to?

What does worthiness matter? If you buy the concept you are dealing with a creature infinitely more powerful than you, a being that can crush you at will, can predict all your moves and can throw you into a pit to suffer for eternity. Why do your concerns about what makes him "worthy" matter? What gives us, the insignificant, timeblind, ever deceived world born a right to pass judgement?

Like a shirtless man on COPS Cnaiur urs Skiotha, he beats you BECAUSE he loves you the idea of loving you

Fixed.

Interesting post MFC.

[SerMixalot]

Like a shirtless man on COPS, he beats you because he LOVES you.

And beatings will continue until morale improves

[SerMixalot]

What does worthiness matter? If you buy the concept you are dealing with a creature infinitely more powerful than you, a being that can crush you at will, can predict all your moves and can throw you into a pit to suffer for eternity. Why do your concerns about what makes him "worthy" matter? What gives us, the insignificant, timeblind, ever deceived world born a right to pass judgement?

oh Im sorry I was under the impression that some believed in free will.

[Sci-2]

I do wonder at people who've told me that if God wasn't all powerful he would be unworthy of worship.

I'd take omni-benevolence as the main criteria, which is probably why Kuan Yin and Avalokiteshvara are among my top deities.

I also [like] Thoth, something about that guy is just cool.

[Castel]

oh Im sorry I was under the impression that some believed in free will.

We had a thread on this already but a lot of people (myself included) think that you can't have an Omni!God and free will.

Also, I don't see why you automatically assume that you should have some sort of choice or say. I think that's very modern thinking in a way, we expect to have self-determination in our lives. We pick our government, our mates and so on and we take this as an inalienable right. Why does a god have to play by these rules? Why should your say matter? Who are you that you deserve to have some input? If God is omniscient and omnipotent then he clearly knows better than you. What have you experienced in your limited life that allows you to challenge his Word? Obey or be destroyed, your opinion isn't really relevant.God is the greatest dictator of them all.

(all of this is assuming that you buy that god is omnipotent and omniscient and is not lying to your face)

[Matrim Fox Cauthon]

So if god is NOT all loving, what makes him worthy of devotion.

Being vastly more loving than mortals while also being vastly more powerful than mortals?

If god is all loving, how can he justify the pain he submits us to?

This also presumes omnipotence and divine authorship of evil.

While many theists do hold the classic propositions of theology (i.e. omnipotence, omniscience, and omni-benevolence) those are not the only theological positions that exist. Interestingly enough, in the triad of theodicy, theologians are more likely to weaken either omnipotence or omniscience before weakening the proposition that god is omni-benevolent.

oh Im sorry I was under the impression that some believed in free will.

Some, but not all, including theologians such as John Calvin.

[SerMixalot]

Being vastly more loving than mortals while also being vastly more powerful than mortals?

This also presumes omnipotence and divine authorship of evil.

While many theists do hold the classic propositions of theology (i.e. omnipotence, omniscience, and omni-benevolence) those are not the only theological positions that exist. Interestingly enough, in the triad of theodicy, theologians are more likely to weaken either omnipotence or omniscience before weakening the proposition that god is omni-benevolent.

Some, but not all, including theologians such as John Calvin.

as I said earlier god and free will are mutually exclusive.

no god and lack of free will is closer to the truth

[straits]

There's a god that is continuously submitting us to pain? No, that's us. And we like it.

Being vastly more loving than mortals while also being vastly more powerful than mortals?

This also presumes omnipotence and divine authorship of evil.

While many theists do hold the classic propositions of theology (i.e. omnipotence, omniscience, and omni-benevolence) those are not the only theological positions that exist. Interestingly enough, in the triad of theodicy, theologians are more likely to weaken either omnipotence or omniscience before weakening the proposition that god is omni-benevolent.

None of the three actually imply that god is doing anything. Maybe he's just sitting there watching the advanced CCTV. Choosing to do nothing. He's all-present but not all-doing.

[SerMixalot]

There's a god that is continuously submitting us to pain? No, that's us. And we like it.

None of the three actually imply that god is doing anything. Maybe he's just sitting there watching the advanced CCTV. Choosing to do nothing. He's all-present but not all-doing.

Omniscience is the same as actually wrting the script. If he knows something will be done, it is impossible todo otherwise.

[Matrim Fox Cauthon]

as I said earlier god and free will are mutually exclusive.

no god and lack of free will is closer to the truth

Deities existed in the conception of human beings long before a concept of free will and determinism. God and free will is not mutually exclusive unless you define the terms in such a way that they are.

[SerMixalot]

Deities existed in the conception of human beings long before a concept of free will and determinism. God and free will is not mutually exclusive unless you define the terms in such a way that they are.

there is no way to define free will that is consistent wih another power creating you

or simply put, I did not choose to be born

[straits]

there is no way to define free will that is consistent wih another power creating you

or simply put, I did not choose to be born

its like drawing a parallel between generating pseudorandom numbers with what youre saying. pick a seed in machine time for a starter to get some random numbers on a computer. really they can be predicted but effectively random.

can you look at the inception of the universe as a flick of the thumb of a deity, and everything else is allowed to happen as it may? or are you following the omni- model of a god.

oh, and you never choose to be born.

[SerMixalot]

its like drawing a parallel between generating pseudorandom numbers with what youre saying. pick a seed in machine time for a starter to get some random numbers on a computer. really they can be predicted but effectively random.

can you look at the inception of the universe as a flick of the thumb of a deity, and everything else is allowed to happen as it may? or are you following the omni- model of a god.

oh, and you never choose to be born.

I am talking a world where I am held accountable to my actions, presumably to some deity. When I have not chosen to play the game, I cannot be held accountable for my actions in the game.

[Castel]

While many theists do hold the classic propositions of theology (i.e. omnipotence, omniscience, and omni-benevolence) those are not the only theological positions that exist. Interestingly enough, in the triad of theodicy, theologians are more likely to weaken either omnipotence or omniscience before weakening the proposition that god is omni-benevolent.

Sorry about the cynicism but of course they do. You have to put some fiat limit on one or the other and why not the one that doesn't justify joyous worship? Makes things much easier.

can you look at the inception of the universe as a flick of the thumb of a deity, and everything else is allowed to happen as it may? or are you following the omni- model of a god.

I'll try to find the thread and link it so we don't go over all this again but that god may not be omniscient, in which case free will is possible. But the omniscient god knows exactly what his thumb flick will do. It knows exactly what sending prophets will cause. And because it's also all-powerful it's totally responsible.

There's a god that is continuously submitting us to pain? No, that's us. And we like it.

Nope. Next you'll bring up war and say that humanity could stop it if we all tried. But blame god. He created a situation in which humanity's interests would never be one and the same (in some religions he actually scattered humanity and apparently destroyed common language wtf?). When you have a hundred tribes around you competing for the same resources you can't afford to try to trust everyone and sing kumbaya, all it takes is one sociopathic leader to turn around and fuck everyone and you're not only dead, your descendants are stuck in the paranoid state we modern humans are today. Also,if it's a part of our psychological makeup, and whose fault is that.

[Matrim Fox Cauthon]

there is no way to define free will that is consistent wih another power creating you

or simply put, I did not choose to be born

Are you equating freewill and the will to be?

[mikef]

Not in the slightest, I stopped debating religion a long time ago though.

[DaveRoid]

Yes, I believe in God. If you don't that's cool.

This.

What made all these things around us? There is no answer to it by science other than it was all a big accident.

That is not good enough and I don't think they will ever come up with a better answer.

[Lord Toblerone]

I do wonder at people who've told me that if God wasn't all powerful he would be unworthy of worship.

I'd take omni-benevolence as the main criteria, which is probably why Kuan Yin and Avalokiteshvara are among my top deities.

I also [like] Thoth, something about that guy is just cool.

I favour Odin myself. Particularly as the Wanderer.

This.

What made all these things around us? There is no answer to it by science other than it was all a big accident.

That is not good enough and I don't think they will ever come up with a better answer.

Accident is a bad way of putting it.

But the fact we even ask the question "Who/What made all this?" speaks volumes about human psychology. Why do things have to be made? Because we make things, that's why.

I'd argue that the scientific answer is always better than "God did it" even if that answer is "We don't know, and may never know".