Heresy 30

[Melifeather]

If my theory that the wildlings are the exiled families that were loyal to the Starks, then its understandable that some of them were very upset. If you look at the new maps, the land of Thenn is way the hell up north, nearly inside the lands of Always Winter. This illustrates two things: 1) if the White Walkers were so dangerous, how did the Thenns live within their territory? 2) the Thenns were so pissed that they lost, that they went as far away from the other families as possible.

[Little Wing]

Jon is not a cousin.

If he's Lyanna's son then he is.

[blackwing]

Not entirely related, but do we have any proof that CotF have/can mate with humans?

I think the Reeds being small and Jojen having green dreams might hint in that direction.

by the way: I love your threads (read the previous one and this one so far) and theories, although personally, I seem to be an average Joe when it comes to interpreting ASoIaF.

[Tyryan Lannister]

I think the Reeds being small and Jojen having green dreams might hint in that direction.

by the way: I love your threads (read the previous one and this one so far) and theories, although personally, I seem to be an average Joe when it comes to interpreting ASoIaF.

There is no average; there is Heretic, and there is non-believer.

[Tyryan Lannister]

As Little Wing quoted above, there are six white walkers in the prologue. One does the fighting, five watch.

There are six direwolf pups. One is apart and has the eyes open.

There are six Stark children. One is a bastard.

Coincidence?

Maybe there are only six White Walkers. One for every Stark child?

OMG, Sam killed Robb.

I laughed at loud at this too... but at the same time, Sam does kill his Other first... :frown5:

[Tyryan Lannister]

For some reason there is a school of thought that the Others may have a hive mind. Where this comes from I don't know, but the fact that they speak in the prologue to AGoT clearly suggests otherwise.

I think it comes from someone taking a different idea into a tangent: quite a few threads back, I wondered if the Queen Other was kind of like a Queen Bee, in the sense that she kills/exiles all other possible Queens until one removes her from power... and then someone, for whatever reason, decided that this meant that the Others had a hive mind

[Little Wing]

I think it comes from someone taking a different idea into a tangent: quite a few threads back, I wondered if the Queen Other was kind of like a Queen Bee, in the sense that she kills/exiles all other possible Queens until one removes her from power... and then someone, for whatever reason, decided that this meant that the Others had a hive mind

It was me!

The funny thing is, I was using the analogy to illustrate how I saw the Others warging the dead as a collective consciousness/hive mind (that it's just something that comes with the territory, they just emit it as a signal) and then I connected it with your Queen Bee thing... I have a tendency to do everything backwards so this comes as no surprise to me. Sorry to have "vandalized" your idea... :pirate:

[Tyryan Lannister]

It was me!

The funny thing is, I was using the analogy to illustrate how I saw the Others warging the dead as a collective consciousness/hive mind (that it's just something that comes with the territory, they just emit it as a signal) and then I connected it with your Queen Bee thing... I have a tendency to do everything backwards so this comes as no surprise to me. Sorry to have "vandalized" your idea... :pirate:

vandalize or "andalize"???? :eek:

[Little Wing]

vandalize or "andalize"???? :eek:

Yes. :wideeyed:

ETA: Just stumbled upon this photo, ties in nicely with the direwolf talk from up thread (standing apart but being together)

[Melifeather]

vandalize or "andalize"???? :eek:

I think the Andals have been andalizing a lot of false histories and stories around Westeros.

[lysmonger]

For some reason there is a school of thought that the Others may have a hive mind. Where this comes from I don't know, but the fact that they speak in the prologue to AGoT clearly suggests otherwise.

The cold is suspected to be the means by which they travel other than short distances. Here's the Reverend Robert Kirk in 1691:

These Siths or Fairies they call Sleagh Maith or the Good People...are said to be of middle nature between Man and Angel, as were Daemons thought to be of old; of intelligent fluidous Spirits, and light changeable bodies (lyke those called Astral) somewhat of the nature of a condensed cloud, and best seen in twilight. These bodies be so pliable through the sublety of Spirits that agitate them, that they can make them appear or disappear at pleasure

Here I believe you're confusing wights and white walkers. the latter are Sidhe as described above and form their weapons and armour of ice when they materialise. The wights are dead things and when armed at all carry whatever weapons they had in life.

I dont believe we can make any association with faerie lore and hell.

Think about it. Most Faerie lore comes with a catholic twist or was written by a priest/friar. GRRM knows this. GRRM is also pointing out that history or point of view(andals/maestars) will change stories in respect to their belief. Perhaps GRRM has a belief on what really went down.

-For antoher thing, the stark warging may come from Bloodraven-as we dont know if he got with any of the women in the next dunk and egg adventure.

[Toccs]

If you look at the new maps, the land of Thenn is way the hell up north, nearly inside the lands of Always Winter. This illustrates two things: 1) if the White Walkers were so dangerous, how did the Thenns live within their territory? 2) the Thenns were so pissed that they lost, that they went as far away from the other families as possible.

The Thenns survived because thei valley is notoriusly isoltaed within the Northern Frostfangs (there's a reason why it was one of the places that the scattered Wildlings went to after the failed attack on the Wall.

The Thenns are the best example of what Black Crow calls "the lost Kingdoms Beyond the Wall". The Thenns are essentially a the only remaining Kingdom from the 100 Kingdoms of the First Men.

[Black Crow]

I think the Reeds being small and Jojen having green dreams might hint in that direction.

There was a pre-heretical thought at one time long long ago that this is where the Starks get their warging from - that the Crannogmen are closely related by blood to the Children and therefore by marrying into them the Starks are likewise. Its possible of course, but I still think that the connection to the Old Races goes much further back.

[Black Crow]

I dont believe we can make any association with faerie lore and hell.

Think about it. Most Faerie lore comes with a catholic twist or was written by a priest/friar. GRRM knows this. GRRM is also pointing out that history or point of view(andals/maestars) will change stories in respect to their belief. Perhaps GRRM has a belief on what really went down.

I agree and disagree with this one insofar as I think that the two are very closely related.

The catholic twisting comes from teaching that Faerie folk are demons and that Faerie is hell; hence the Rev. Robert Kirk:

These Siths or Fairies they call Sleagh Maith or the Good People...are said to be of middle nature between Man and Angel, as were Daemons thought to be of old

One might indeed go further and suggest that while the Others are unquestionably in GRRM's words "a different form of life", their demonisation may in part be down to the teachings of the Faith. Again, this isn't to turn them into the good guys by any means, but its a perspective worth bearing in mind.

[lysmonger]

I think that may or may get us what Martin is really thinking...

[Black Wolf Smith]

Perhaps the Thenns came from a "grudgingly-Stark" loyalist that were angry when they lost and were cast out?

If Kings blood is that important, then perhaps Jon Snow is actually "Stark" on both sides. Wouldn't that be ironic.

I have a crack pot theory that Jon has Targ blood on both sides. That Rhaegar didn't just fall for Lyannaat HH, he went there to win her heart. That is more about the GoT, not the GoIaF.

[Babeldygob]

I cannot remember if the Weirwood at the Nightfort was bigger(older) than the Weirwood at Winterfell. Bran might've commented on it. I don't have the book with me right now. If it is, it would be an indication that the Nightfort was around before Winterfell and thus the Wall. In addition, if Winterfell wasn't around before the Long Night, what castles were? The Dreadfort? Last Hearth? Moat Cailin? ... There must have been some. Someone had to rule the North from somewhere. The Nightfort seems a likely place.

[Melifeather]

I have a crack pot theory that Jon has Targ blood on both sides. That Rhaegar didn't just fall for Lyannaat HH, he went there to win her heart. That is more about the GoT, not the GoIaF.

How would that work if Rhaegar is Targaryen and Lyanna is Stark?

I cannot remember if the Weirwood at the Nightfort was bigger(older) than the Weirwood at Winterfell. Bran might've commented on it. I don't have the book with me right now. If it is, it would be an indication that the Nightfort was around before Winterfell and thus the Wall. In addition, if Winterfell wasn't around before the Long Night, what castles were? The Dreadfort? Last Hearth? Moat Cailin? ... There must have been some. Someone had to rule the North from somewhere. The Nightfort seems a likely place.

It depends on which version of the Long Night you've ascribed to. There's the Long Night that happened when the Children of the Forest were trying to rid Westeros of First Men. In that instance, there probably wasn't a Winterfell yet. That's why there is the theory that when the Last Hero went looking for the Children, that he may have found them in the sidhe hill that later became Winterfell.

Then, there's the story about the Nights King. Some people think this was also during a Long Night. If its true that the Nights King was the 13th commander, then logically Winterfell could have already existed.

I think I'm not alone in thinking the Nightfort precedes the current Wall.

My thinking is that the Nights King existed prior to the current Wall. I believe there was a much earlier Wall at Moat Cailin, but that the Nights King may have been enthroned somewhere else, like High Heart or Raventree Hall. If you haven't read my whole theory, here's the link: http://asoiaf.wester...d/#entry3850438

[Melifeather]

I was thinking on Bloodraven and his Targaryen father, and was wondering if there is a missing Targaryen link to my True(born) theory?

The Targaryens had fought the Andals in their own right, and it was Torrhen Stark who also bent the knee to Aegon the Conqueror. Then there's the comment from the north about "it were the dragons we married", so I do think my theory is missing a connection. If anyone has any ideas, please share them either here or on my True(born) thread.

[Black Crow]

I cannot remember if the Weirwood at the Nightfort was bigger(older) than the Weirwood at Winterfell. Bran might've commented on it. I don't have the book with me right now. If it is, it would be an indication that the Nightfort was around before Winterfell and thus the Wall. In addition, if Winterfell wasn't around before the Long Night, what castles were? The Dreadfort? Last Hearth? Moat Cailin? ... There must have been some. Someone had to rule the North from somewhere. The Nightfort seems a likely place.

No-one ruled the North before the Long Night - remember there were 100 kingdoms, not seven. Some of those, such as the Thenns, and no doubt others besides were lost beyond the Wall, while those that remained below it after the Long Night were conquered by the Starks during the euphimistically termed "birth of the Seven Kingdoms"

ETA: spelling