Melifeather Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 Why does there have to be changelings in order for White Walkers to exist? Didn't they exist prior to any human interference?If there are changelings, wouldn't that be the interbred hybrids such as skinchangers, wargs and greenseers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lysmonger Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 -well if they are using crasters children to be used in some way for their existence, then they must have some creation that involved humans for their existence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burning One Arise Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 Why does there have to be changelings in order for White Walkers to exist? Didn't they exist prior to any human interference?If there are changelings, wouldn't that be the interbred hybrids such as skinchangers, wargs and greenseers?I would throw Faceless Men in that list as well, perhaps? As for Changlings, lysmonger, what would you define as "a changeling"? Sorry, I read a lot of scifi as well as fantasy, so my idea of a changeling may be different than yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lysmonger Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 -The typical fae story. Think Ramsay Bolton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Babeldygob Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 If it's true that Bran the builder built Winterfell, why would he make his seat at the Nightfort? According to the wiki, the Night's King existed not long after the Wall was raised. Unless the Nightfort was there BEFORE the Wall? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burning One Arise Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 -The typical fae story. Think Ramsay BoltonSorry, Im new to this, but what do you mean by "typical fae story"? Disguises, betrayals, etc? Cause that fits Ramsay Bolton. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lysmonger Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 no... reread heresies..... look up washerwoman fae google.If it's true that Bran the builder built Winterfell, why would he make his seat at the Nightfort? According to the wiki, the Night's King existed not long after the Wall was raised. Unless the Nightfort was there BEFORE the Wall?Bran the Builder is a legendary character. Everyone proposes that, "that must be Bran the builders" work. In sense, the legendary Bran the Builder is probably without doubt a far cry from the real historical Bran the bUilder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mace Cooterian Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 Wow. Waited for about 3 hours before Heresy 30 showed up. When it did, it was already 47 posts deep; and I didn't fall asleep at the wheel. In any event, I wanted to applaud the contributors to Heresy 29. IMHO...this is a top three heretical thread. I was recalled to Heresy 21, when I first joined on and started reading. During that time, someone asked about earlier threads and Black Crown referred them to 4 or 6 and then hit 10. I did that course and then picked back up at 21. With that being said, I'm coming back to H29 and it was a real gem.... :bowdown:"So, is there a question in our immediate future?" Not really a question, but a....challenge. To make H30 as good as H29......everyone is going to have to dig a little deeper. Build better bridges to cover the gaps. Use canon as a start and when you get to a gap, back it up with quotes, dreams, etc. I know Black Crow has already stated this at the onset; I'm just restating for reinforcement.You've heard the adage that three times is a charm. So here goes...the latter half of H29 is a standard setter. Thanks again for the posts and information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burning One Arise Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 no... reread heresies..... look up washerwoman fae google.I think my head just exploded. I think Im going to go back through threads now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Babeldygob Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 Sure Bran the Builder was not the hero as he's portrayed to be, by the Stark house no less, but the founder of the Stark line is supposed to have built Winterfell and the Wall. Is there anything to contradict this? If no, then I ask: If you assume that the Nightfort used to be the seat of the Kings of Winter, why did Bran the Builder build Winterfell? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyryan Lannister Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 Sure Bran the Builder was not the hero as he's portrayed to be, by the Stark house no less, but the founder of the Stark line is supposed to have built Winterfell and the Wall. Is there anything to contradict this? If no, then I ask: If you assume that the Nightfort used to be the seat of the Kings of Winter, why did Bran the Builder build Winterfell?Well, Martin himself has contradicted it. He said in an SSM this past summer that Bran the Builder is to Westeros what Noah and Gilgamesh are to our world: we ascribe certain things to them, but we don't know if they ever actually existed. Similarly, we have no indication that Bran the Builder ever existed--and Martin has implied that he actually didn't.As to answering your earlier question on the difference between the Kings of Winter and the Kings in the North, and also how Winterfell vs. Nightfort fits in, read on for my theory:When the Starks first became "supreme rulers" of the First Men, they were called the Kings of Winter, a title which they held until the usurping of the Night's King's throne by the Stark-in-Winterfell. Along with being the Kings of Winter, they were also simultaneously the Lords Commander of the Night's Watch as it was then constituted*. After the usurping of the Night's King's throne, the Kingdom of Winter became split in two, with the Wildling Leader Joruman become King-beyond-the-Wall, and the Stark-in-Winterfell becoming King in the North, defined as the lands between the Wall and the southern parts of the Neck.Now, as we know, there must always be a Stark in Winterfell. As has been suggested by others, I believe that Winterfell is the site where the Last Hero found the Children, or at least it's the place where the truce between the First Men and the Others was brokered by the Children, and that as part of the truce, the Starks were cursed to always have someone in Winterfell. Because of this, Winterfell became the ancestral home, while, for likely various reasons, one of which being that the King was also Lord Commander, the Kings of Winter ruled from the Nightfort instead of Winterfell**.*My reasoning behind this is that I believe that, at a certain point, the list of Lords Commander that Sam finds isn't just a list of the Lords, but also a list of the old Kings of Winter.**I see it as being a parallel to the Targaryens: their ancestral home (after the Doom) was Dragonstone, while they ruled Westeros from King's Landing; as such, the Head Stark-in-Winterfell would have been the Prince of Winterfell, much like the heir-apparent to the Iron Throne was also the Prince of Dragonstone (or how, in the Britain, the heir-apparent is the Prince of Wales). Now, this new title for Stark-in-Winterfell seems to give a new potential meaning to that Theon chapter in Dance... :commie: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 Sorry, Im new to this, but what do you mean by "typical fae story"? Disguises, betrayals, etc? Cause that fits Ramsay Bolton.Ah, right...Basically in Celtic folklore the Faerie races need human servants and consorts, usually to do those things they themselves can't, like walk abroad in the daylight.Sometimes however they are quite literally changelings; taken as babies and raised up as their own. In exchange they sometimes leave one of their own or just a glamoured decoy, but for the "outside" work so to speak, they also take them grown as in the case of Tam Lin.GRRM appears to be using the concept fairly broadly; Craster's sons being given up to be white walkers is the classic baby-snatching, while the adaptation of the Tam Lin story as Bael the Bard suggests that the Starks have Faerie blood. Similarly there's a theory, not discussed for a while, that Ramsay Bolton is one of the other kind of changeling, a Faerie planted to grow up as human - compare his behaviour with how the Others/Sidhe were described by Old Nan as behaving - hunting maidens through the woods etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 Why does there have to be changelings in order for White Walkers to exist? Didn't they exist prior to any human interference?If there are changelings, wouldn't that be the interbred hybrids such as skinchangers, wargs and greenseers?They are the "terrible half human children" sired upon Wildling women by the Others/Sidhe, changelings are something different as per my last post. That being said there is a suspicion that children possessed of those powers are obviously more desireable, which is why Craster was getting hit, and again raises questions about the significance of Bael the bard/Tam Lin and the Starks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 It'll be a jinxed one it seems, not being opened as usual... oh well, change is good, right?Right? ....Not jinxed at all, we've had "guest" OPs before and while this one was short and sweet I took it as a benediction, given that it was by Angalin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 Sure Bran the Builder was not the hero as he's portrayed to be, by the Stark house no less, but the founder of the Stark line is supposed to have built Winterfell and the Wall. Is there anything to contradict this? If no, then I ask: If you assume that the Nightfort used to be the seat of the Kings of Winter, why did Bran the Builder build Winterfell?Per Tyryan:Oh, and he did mention that he put lots of legends into the books such as Bran the Builder. Bran the builder is supposed to have built the Wall, Winterfel, and Storms End. GRRM mentioned that he has become a legend so that people will look at a structure and say "wow, it must have been built by Bran the Builder" when it actually was not. This is GRRM's attemt on creating a world with myths and legends so if at some point you see, "They say it was built by Bran the Builder or Lann the Clever" realize that its part of the mythos.If time is permiting would you mind giving a brief description on how the wall was constructed?Much of those details are lost in the mists of time and legend. No one can even say for certain if Brandon the Builder ever lived. He is as remote from the time of the novels as Noah and Gilgamesh are from our own time.ETA: the above are taken from two different SSMs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lysmonger Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 I think Brandon the Builder was the general explanation or cover for the wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlekitten Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 Little WingYou mention Sandor talking of spirits of the airWB Yeats quotes an old Gaelic prayer in the Adoration of the magiSeven Paters seven times, Send Mary by her Son, Send Bridget by her mantle, Send God by his strength, Between us and the faery host, Between us and the demons of the air.Demons of the air and spirits of the air was a way of referring to the the fairies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alienarea Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 In the end of heresy 29 I have asked if there is any indication of Starks beeing warks/skinchangers before Bael refreshed the bloodline. Is there any quote about this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redriver Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 Congrats on Heresy 30,Black Crow and all.I may be a dissenting voice at times,but a heretic at heart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Babeldygob Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 So you are suggesting that Bran the Builder may have not even existed? The name must have come from somewhere?! The same goes for the sayings 'The North Remembers', 'There Must Always Be A Stark In Winterfell'. Nobody knows what they really mean anymore, just like nobody knows for sure that Brandon the Builder actually existed, but the sayings come from somewhere, just like the names. The fact that for generations these sayings, names and stories were remembered must mean something right? Isn't this what Heresy is about? Can we at least agree that Bran the Builder founded House Stark and lived when the Long Night ended, at the start of the Age of Heroes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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