Just to keep you annoyed

[Vic-tarion Rattlehead]

I think, this post might annoy a whole bunch of soap-opera fan-boys and tele-novella groupies, but… so be it.

These forums are swarming with threads dealing with a single issue that is constantly micro-waving everyone's brains.

It is called R+L=J.

Why do you people want so desperately for ASOIAF to become some Brazilian TV sitcom, centered entirely on melancholic outsider-underdog character with hidden royal legacy, destined to save the world?

I agree, that there is something intriguing in the promise that Ned Stark made to his sister on her death bed, and it is dubious why Raegar abducted her in the first place. But just look around these forums, and realize, what this topic has done to the whole ASOIAF community:

• Let's say, you want to discuss the possible ending of the whole series and you're just musing, what will happen… Here jumps the fan-boy and says: "Jon will single handedly vanquish the Others and sit the Iron Throne!"
  

O.K., you say - please explain yourself, why? "Because of the R+L=J, of cause!". No farther explanation is needed - it is more canon than Jenochian Apocrypha's…

• Or maybe, you're suggesting that Jon will succumb to his wounds and die in the beginning of TWOW… Here pops another fan-girl: "No way!, - she exclaims, - he cannot die, GRRM would never-ever allow this!".
  

And why so? - you dare to inquire. "Cause you should consider R+L=J! It is known!"

I understand, that a lot of people would prefer ASOIAF to be less complicated plot-vise than "Harry Potter" and packed with even more magic and fireworks, but don't you all think that all of this fairy-tale obsession is just totally against all that we've seen in the last five books?

Why can't Jon live and die as Willa-the-washerwoman's son? Does he absolutely has to be TPTWP? Why to Hell should he be warged/resurrected/hanged/drawn and quartered? If other POV characters, not less important than him have died and decomposed in their shallow graves - why can't he also? Haven't you guys ever considered, that R+L could also be equal… R(amsey) or B(iter)? Now that would be something that Ned would REALY like to keep in secret!

Happily, GRRM stated that he doesn't pay attention to these forums, so he won't be annoyed constantly by this sickening R+L=J fandom.

[JP Dayne]

r+l=j is pratically a given, son

don't be so mad about it

his plot is not constructed to be like a soap opera. really, you should re-read his chapters

[The Drunkard]

:stillsick:

Seriously?

[Ser Endrew Tarth]

Yeah, it either is or it isn't, but there's more than enough textual evidence to make this one of the more believable theories on the forum. If you don't like crackpot theories then you are on the wrong forum (there's basically not much else to do but speculate while awaiting further volumes).

[Rolex Baratheon]

I think, this post might annoy a whole bunch of soap-opera fan-boys and tele-novella groupies, but… so be it.

These forums are swarming with threads dealing with a single issue that is constantly micro-waving everyone's brains.

It is called R+L=J.

Why do you people want so desperately for ASOIAF to become some Brazilian TV sitcom, centered entirely on melancholic outsider-underdog character with hidden royal legacy, destined to save the world?

I agree, that there is something intriguing in the promise that Ned Stark made to his sister on her death bed, and it is dubious why Raegar abducted her in the first place. But just look around these forums, and realize, what this topic has done to the whole ASOIAF community:

• Let's say, you want to discuss the possible ending of the whole series and you're just musing, what will happen… Here jumps the fan-boy and says: "Jon will single handedly vanquish the Others and sit the Iron Throne!"
  

O.K., you say - please explain yourself, why? "Because of the R+L=J, of cause!". No farther explanation is needed - it is more canon than Jenochian Apocrypha's…

• Or maybe, you're suggesting that Jon will succumb to his wounds and die in the beginning of TWOW… Here pops another fan-girl: "No way!, - she exclaims, - he cannot die, GRRM would never-ever allow this!".
  

And why so? - you dare to inquire. "Cause you should consider R+L=J! It is known!"

I understand, that a lot of people would prefer ASOIAF to be less complicated plot-vise than "Harry Potter" and packed with even more magic and fireworks, but don't you all think that all of this fairy-tale obsession is just totally against all that we've seen in the last five books?

Why can't Jon live and die as Willa-the-washerwoman's son? Does he absolutely has to be TPTWP? Why to Hell should he be warged/resurrected/hanged/drawn and quartered? If other POV characters, not less important than him have died and decomposed in their shallow graves - why can't he also? Haven't you guys ever considered, that R+L could also be equal… R(amsey) or B(iter)? Now that would be something that Ned would REALY like to keep in secret!

Happily, GRRM stated that he doesn't pay attention to these forums, so he won't be annoyed constantly by this sickening R+L=J fandom.

I actually agree with you.

However, I do hope you won't mistake people stating that RLJ is a fact, for people shipping it. Two different cases there.

[FittleLinger]

To the OP - actually the problem with people like you (who don't believe in R+L=J, despite the overwhelming evidence, and because "GRRM is not a soap opera writer) is their narrowmindedness, no offence. How did you draw the conclusion that if it's true, Jon will defeat the others, become king and live happily ever after? R+L=J. This means Rhaegar and Lyanna are Jon's parents. That much. Is he TPTWP? Is there such a thing as TPTWP? Will he live, die, inbetween? Will he ever sit on a throne of any kind? How do you fulfill your answer to these only based on who his parents are?

I personally, as a firm believer in R+L=J, have more no's than yes' on the aforementioned questions. Things are way more complicated.

[brut]

What exactly do you mean by:

"....other POV characters, not less important than him have died and decomposed in their shallow graves..."

Who is more important than Jon that died? Why do you think that they are/were more important?

Not annoyed at all, but declining that RL=J is rather high probability, means you are way off on reading between the lines.

[Lord Flashheart]

That's exactly the case I was pointing at - practically given because of... what?

No offence meant dude, but was it explicitly written in one of the books, or stated by the author in an interview? The theory by itself it's only a theory - but the specific R+L idea is being PRed for years as some kind of religious dogma: "just believe it and don't ask for explanations, G-d forbid!"

I believe there are about 35 threads dealing with R+L=J so if you want some textual evidence spend some time there.

[Mammothsbane]

How did you draw the conclusion that if it's true, Jon will defeat the others, become king and live happily ever after? R+L=J. This means Rhaegar and Lyanna are Jon's parents. That much. Is he TPTWP? Is there such a thing as TPTWP? Will he live, die, inbetween? Will he ever sit on a throne of any kind? How do you fulfill your answer to these only based on who his parents are?

I agree with the above quoted part. Just because Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's son doesn't mean it will turn into a soap opera with a happily ever after ending. Indeed, the question of Jon's parentage at this point is more for the reader than for the character since he seems to seldom think of it.

Anyway, just because Jon has a mysterious parentage does not mean that he is some great end-all prophet. I think you're taking the R+L=J think too far

[ab aeterno]

That's exactly the case I was pointing at - practically given because of... what?

No offence meant dude, but was it explicitly written in one of the books, or stated by the author in an interview? The theory by itself it's only a theory - but the specific R+L idea is being PRed for years as some kind of religious dogma: "just believe it and don't ask for explanations, G-d forbid!"

Actually, if you had read any of the explanations as to why R+L=J is more convincing that N+W/A then you would know that there is actually a greater body of implicit textual reference as well as logical reasoning behind R+L=J than there is for Ned being Jon's father. I'm not going to run through all the evidence for you because you're a little late to the party. We went through a massive thread a couple weeks ago explaining why the R+L case is stronger based upon the explanation.

What evidence would you put forward for Jon being Ned's son?

Edit: This is merely the most recent one.

[Jovem Corvo]

In defense of Brazilian tv sitcom, there is no novela centered entirely on melancholic outsider-underdog character with hidden royal legacy, destined to save the world. :D

So, I would have no problem with Jon being the "washerwoman's son", but when so many people get to the same conclusion independently through evidences in the five books it might as well be true.

[Tyryan Lannister]

Just because R+L=J (which I do firmly believe in) does not mean that any of the other things that people point out about it actually will happen. For me (and I know for a fact for a few others at least.... visit Heresy to learn more), what matters is that he still is a Stark, the Rhaegar thing will have little to nothing of import actually attached to it. The main point of reasoning behind this is that his still being a Stark is what allows him to have his warging abilities and what not, and what lead to him having been raised by Ned in the Northern tradition... it's because he's a Stark that Jon is who he is. In the end, it doesn't even really matter if Jon discovers he true parentage, mainly because, if we were to discover that he is actually Rhaegar's son, one of two/both of these things will likely happen: it will be that he discovers he's Rhaegars BASTARD son, so he's still in the same place relative to claiming the Iron Throne/any other seat of power outside the Night's Watch, and/or he learns that he is Rhaegar's son, has a legitimate claim to the Iron Throne, and just doesn't care about it, refusing to seek out that seat of power, as has already been foreshadowed and shown as a part of his character from when Jon refused Stannis' offer to become legitimized as the Lord Stark of Winterfell.

[FittleLinger]

Just because R+L=J (which I do firmly believe in) does not mean that any of the other things that people point out about it actually will happen. For me (and I know for a fact for a few others at least.... visit Heresy to learn more), what matters is that he still is a Stark, the Rhaegar thing will have little to nothing of import actually attached to it. The main point of reasoning behind this is that his still being a Stark is what allows him to have his warging abilities and what not, and what lead to him having been raised by Ned in the Northern tradition... it's because he's a Stark that Jon is who he is. In the end, it doesn't even really matter if Jon discovers he true parentage, mainly because, if we were to discover that he is actually Rhaegar's son, one of two/both of these things will likely happen: it will be that he discovers he's Rhaegars BASTARD son, so he's still in the same place relative to claiming the Iron Throne/any other seat of power outside the Night's Watch, and/or he learns that he is Rhaegar's son, has a legitimate claim to the Iron Throne, and just doesn't care about it, refusing to seek out that seat of power, as has already been foreshadowed and shown as a part of his character from when Jon refused Stannis' offer to become legitimized as the Lord Stark of Winterfell.

Exactly. For me the bastard thing is not really an option, because of the KG at the TOJ, but he will either never find out, or find out but not care. And trust me, Martin is not setting him up as a political ruler, but the Stark + Targ will be important to the mystical aspect, so as a true heretic (well heresies are really abstract and multi-layered so I don't know what true heretic means actually :)) I will say - it will matter to the Game of Ice and Fire, not the Game of Thrones.

[alienarea]

I'm with annoying.

My two cents: Ned was seduced by a sorceress (Melisandre? She conveniently appears after Ned is dead) and is ashamed to admit it. Ned is the Uther Pendragon to Jon being Arthur.

If Lyanna was Jon's mother, who took care of him while Ned snd Howland Reed tore down the ToJ and build the cairns? If there had been other prople around, for example a wetnurse ( how would two men feed a newborn child when everyone around them was dead?), the truth would have leaked by now, no?

[FittleLinger]

I'm with annoying.

My two cents: Ned was seduced by a sorceress (Melisandre? She conveniently appears after Ned is dead) and is ashamed to admit it. Ned is the Uther Pendragon to Jon being Arthur.

If Lyanna was Jon's mother, who took care of him while Ned snd Howland Reed tore down the ToJ and build the cairns? If there had been other prople around, for example a wetnurse ( how would two men feed a newborn child when everyone around them was dead?), the truth would have leaked by now, no?

Why? It solely depends on the wetnurse. Apparently it has not.

[Melifeather]

R+L=J is highly likely, but the significance is going to be a whoooooooooole lot different than expected. If you want a taste, might I suggest the Heresy threads?

Also, I'd like to promote my own thread: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/77369-the-trueborn-story-about-how-the-nights-king-was-overthrown-and-winterfell-stolen-by-a-bastard/#entry3850438

[alienarea]

Why? It solely depends on the wetnurse. Apparently it has not.

Because there wasn't a wetnurse. Because there wasn't a child at the ToJ ...

[FittleLinger]

Because there wasn't a wetnurse. Because there wasn't a child at the ToJ ...

But where does the statement that the wetnurse, if there was one, would give away the truth come from?

[Ser Endrew Tarth]

I'm with annoying.

My two cents: Ned was seduced by a sorceress (Melisandre? She conveniently appears after Ned is dead) and is ashamed to admit it. Ned is the Uther Pendragon to Jon being Arthur.

If Lyanna was Jon's mother, who took care of him while Ned snd Howland Reed tore down the ToJ and build the cairns? If there had been other prople around, for example a wetnurse ( how would two men feed a newborn child when everyone around them was dead?), the truth would have leaked by now, no?

"who took care of him while Ned snd Howland Reed tore down the ToJ and build the cairns"

I do not understand this sentence.

Do yall think they will lock this thread based on the title?

[alienarea]

But where does the statement that the wetnurse, if there was one, would give away the truth come from?

In a world where Sansa can't keep her mouth shut and dooms Ned a simple wetnurse can't keep the secret that Lyanna was with child for twenty years, can she?