Heresy 31

[Melifeather]

The sun worshippers do their sacrifices and fire building around the winter solstice when the days are shorter and the nights are longer....dang, I almost started singing Ventura Highway. lol

[Little Wing]

That logic brings us to the Long Night... that would be a period when a people like the Mayas would go crazy with sacrifice :dunno:

ETA: Jeez, 5 pages in... we're insane :drunk:

[Black Crow]

Hey, this made me thinking, has anyone made the connection that Craster's children (wasn't there speculation that the Night's king practiced the same) are literally "children of the forest". Something there?

Sorry if I'm late to the party

Up to a point. In his recent Spanish interview GRRM admitted there's some kind of connection between the Children and the Others but declined to discuss it. Long before that we noted the resemblance between the stealth armour worn by the white walkers and the stealth armour said to have been worn by wood dancers - the thought being that the white walkers are a winterised version of the wood dancers.

Taking this a stage further the little evidence we have (including those latest storyboards) suggest that the white walkers or white shadows are some kind of projected avatars - like Mel's shadow babies. Currently we see them appearing as "Sidhe made of Ice" with an astral form, but if they are just avatars there's no reason why they shouldn't be able to take a corporeal form using dust and leaves rather than ice crystals - which of course raises questions as to what all those sleepers are doing deep in the caves.

And with that, I'm off to bed. Good night all.

[Melifeather]

There must be something to those sleepers Bran sees. If the Children of the Forest are responsible for White Walkers, then following along the same lines as shadowbabies, they would need a way to create them. Melisandre actually gave birth to the shadowbabies after drawing them from Stannis, sexually. I know you are trying to connect Craster's sons to the White Walkers, but the process seems very different....too different. What you've posited before would be equal to Melisandre taking Edric Storm, for instance and turning him into a shadowbaby. That's not how its done. Do you think the Children that are greenseers are actually eating Craster's sons in order to have the strength to create a White Walker?

*ETA - if they are eating Craster's sons to create White Walkers, then Bran probably did eat Jojen. I would hate for that to be the case.

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

There must be something to those sleepers Bran sees. If the Children of the Forest are responsible for White Walkers, then following along the same lines as shadowbabies, they would need a way to create them. Melisandre actually gave birth to the shadowbabies after drawing them from Stannis, sexually. I know you are trying to connect Craster's sons to the White Walkers, but the process seems very different....too different. What you've posited before would be equal to Melisandre taking Edric Storm, for instance and turning him into a shadowbaby.

We don't know all the pages of the shadowbinders book of secrets though. Melisandre does want Edric saccrificed in order to work a spell to kill Robb, Joffrey, and Renly. It's only because he refuses that she uses leaches. Granted many speculate that she saw their deaths in her fires and was manipulating Stannis for his saccrifice.

[lysmonger]

-On the subject of "your monster brandon stark"

Tyrion made the same exact statement to Griffith Connington.

--I think it implies two things. One, that Coldhands is a monster and that he is helping Bran. The other is that he is implying that he is named Brandon Stark too.

Now I think Coldhands referring to him to as call him what you will-implies that he is the three eyed crow.

The crow talking to BRan sounds a lot like the witty banter that Bloodraven did in the Hedge knight.

For a man, who is waking from a daze when he meets Bran, he may be like, oh yeah, you saw me as a crow....

Now it would be interesting if Brandon saw him as a Raven instead. That would be interesting and would end the Morrigan talk....

Again here is the question, why would the Andals have the MOrrigan in their religion. Yet, she isnt involved in the North at all.

BTw, in the show, OSha remarks that she knows of the three eyed crow implying the scary sorcerer.... So why would they say that if it was a contradiction.

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

The crow talking to BRan sounds a lot like the witty banter that Bloodraven did in the Hedge knight.

For a man, who is waking from a daze when he meets Bran, he may be like, oh yeah, you saw me as a crow....

But The Tree Man interprets what Bran says completely wrong. Bran was not calling him a crow of the nights watch, he was calling him a literal crow with 3 eyes. It's like if you said that I "was a crazy poster", and i responded "well, yes, someone did take a picture of me and blow it up to poster size once!". Anyone who knew what you were talking about would know that it instantly went over my head, not that I was agreeing with you. And how could a reference to a crow with 3 eyes go over the head of a guy with 1 eye who supposedly appears in peoples dreams as a crow with 3 eyes?

[lysmonger]

-WEe already discussed this in the heresy pages like 10 back....

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

-WEe already discussed this in the heresy pages like 10 back....

Then why did you bring it up again with no new evidence?

[FittleLinger]

But The Tree Man interprets what Bran says completely wrong. Bran was not calling him a crow of the nights watch, he was calling him a literal crow with 3 eyes. It's like if you said that I "was a crazy poster", and i responded "well, yes, someone did take a picture of me and blow it up to poster size once!". Anyone who knew what you were talking about would know that it instantly went over my head, not that I was agreeing with you. And how could a reference to a crow with 3 eyes go over the head of a guy with 1 eye who supposedly appears in peoples dreams as a crow with 3 eyes?

I think he is just twisting words, and to be honest I believe this is Martin wittily revealing us Brynden's real identity.

And also, when Meera asks CH who is the 3EC, he starts describing BR. If seeing him as a crow was unique to Bran, he would've said "What three eyed crow? I am taking you to an albino tree-man.?"

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

And also, when Meera asks CH who is the 3EC, he starts describing BR. If seeing him as a crow was unique to Bran, he would've said "What three eyed crow? I am taking you to an albino tree-man.?"

I don't think we're disputing that multiple people have seen the Three Eyed Crow manifestation. However, what Coldeyes describes is “A friend. Dreamer, wizard, call him what you will. The last greenseer." . That in no way identifies The Tree Man unless Leaf, the COTF that Bran talks to gives evidence that the Last Greenseer she refers to is the Tree Man. I can't recall. There's also the idea that BR and friends might be intentionally misleading Bran.

[FittleLinger]

I don't think we're disputing that multiple people have seen the Three Eyed Crow manifestation. However, what Coldeyes describes is “A friend. Dreamer, wizard, call him what you will. The last greenseer." . That in no way identifies The Tree Man unless Leaf, the COTF that Bran talks to gives evidence that the Last Greenseer she refers to is the Tree Man. I can't recall. There's also the idea that BR and friends might be intentionally misleading Bran.

Yes it doesn't, but later on we and the characters find out it's actually the tree man. I thought you were proposing the idea that BR has no idea he appears as a three eyed crow in Bran's dreams, and my contradiction was that Coldhands knows exactly who they are talking about when they mentioned the three eyed crow.

Edited for spelling idea "eyedea" like the MC. RIP Eyedea

[Melifeather]

I found the passage with Tyrion saying he's someone's monster:

No matter, "Griff" (Tapatalk doesn't feature italics) You are no knight and I am Hugor Hill, a little monster. "Your" little monster, if you like.

[Black Wolf Smith]

really, really don't want to have 5 pages to read when I get back ! :cool4:

I log off about midnight, when I came back there where 120 new(29 on 30, 91 on 31) post, I thought something new info came out.

Given that we're not unadjacent to a whole thread devoted to Coldhands and Monsters¹ I'm with the vote to move on, but would make two parting observations. First I think the confusion arises because there are two quite different conversations going on simultaneously. On the one hand Bran is trying to figure out who or what Coldhands really is, and on the other Jojen and Meera are talking across them asking where they're going. This is very good writing which reflects what often happens in real conversations, but it is confusing and I think that the confusion is deliberate².

1. edit,

2. I agree, but I would take it a bit further. When BR is answering Bran's about being the 3EC he imputs "a thousand eyes and one" which is more then a hint that he is Bloodraven, GRRM is telling the readers the answer of who he is(while BR is answering another question.). IMO GRRM is giving a similar type answer with in an answer when saying "Brandon Stark".

But The Tree Man interprets what Bran says completely wrong. Bran was not calling him a crow of the nights watch, he was calling him a literal crow with 3 eyes.

I agree, and believe that Black Crow was saying the same thing up thread. BR doesn't understand what Bran is saying, does not know that Bran has seen the 3-E crow in his dreams, and he only puts crow with being a man of the nights watch, which he was once, along with many other things.

ETA: I found that they picked up on a older thread.

[Efilnikufesin]

Again here is the question, why would the Andals have the MOrrigan in their religion. Yet, she isnt involved in the North at all.

Well, I think this is more a question of looking back upon religions in close proximity to each other (Such as Celtic and Norse) having influences upon one another and somewhat similar beliefs and gods. When we look at Hugor of the Hill's wiki, I feel like we see what seems almost an "Old God" experience interpreted in a different manner. Plus it is very convenient that the female aspects of the Seven (Mother, Maiden and Crone) happen to be the same three aspects of the triple goddess "the Morrigan" as well.

Here's is some Hugor of the Hill, THE Andal King:

According to the Seven-Pointed Star, King Hugor is a major part of the Faith of the Seven. He was supposedly crowned by the Father himself who pulled down seven stars to make the crown and and the Maid brought forth a girl supple an a willow with eyes like deep blue pools that Hugor his first wife, the Mother made her fertile, who bore him forty-four mighty sons as foretold by the Crone. The Warrior gave each son strength of arms and the Smith wrought each a suit of iron plate His realm was extensive, spreading from the hills of Andalos to the Flatlands in the south.[

Call me crazy, but this seems to be something I might think the Night's King went through as well.

[Efilnikufesin]

I found the passage with Tyrion saying he's someone's monster:

No matter, "Griff" (Tapatalk doesn't feature italics) You are no knight and I am Hugor Hill, a little monster. "Your" little monster, if you like.

Sorry for getting back to the Coldhands topic, but I missed it while working :( .

Have a little theory that Bran himself is the 3EC, and Coldhands is his agent, explaining his comment of "Your monster, Bandon Stark." He is Bran's avatar brought back to escort none other but himself.

Bloodraven does not have three eyes, which Bran as well comments on:

“Are you the three-eyed crow?” Bran heard himself say. A three-eyed crow should have three

eyes. He has only one, and that one red.

Exactly, he has one eye, or as it is said "a thousand eyes and one," but never three.

And when asked about who is the 3EC Coldhands says:

“A friend. Dreamer, wizard, call him what you will. The last greenseer."

Will Bran not be the last greenseer as well once Bloodraven is gone? Therefore not ruling out this response referring to Bran himself.

Plus, anyone see a character with three eyes besides in this paragraph:

It seemed to sprout from solid rock, its pale roots twisting up from a myriad of fissures

and hairline cracks. The tree was slender compared to other weirwoods he had seen, no more

than a sapling, yet it was growing as he watched, its limbs thickening as they reached for the

sky. Wary, he circled the smooth white trunk until he came to the face. Red eyes looked at

him. Fierce eyes they were, yet glad to see him. The weirwood had his brother’s face. Had his

brother always had three eyes?

No he definitely did not always have three eyes. Just here. Plus this quote is from ACoK, meaning Bran has run into Jon having greenseer powers before he even entered the Children's cave. So why not also arrange for escort for himself in the past as well? Much of the dialogue would make much more sense in this scenario.

OK, done.

Edit: Would probably also make Coldhands someone that Bran knows, not necesarrily Benjen, but someone he knows and trusts.

[Black Crow]

There must be something to those sleepers Bran sees. If the Children of the Forest are responsible for White Walkers, then following along the same lines as shadowbabies, they would need a way to create them. Melisandre actually gave birth to the shadowbabies after drawing them from Stannis, sexually. I know you are trying to connect Craster's sons to the White Walkers, but the process seems very different....too different. What you've posited before would be equal to Melisandre taking Edric Storm, for instance and turning him into a shadowbaby. That's not how its done. Do you think the Children that are greenseers are actually eating Craster's sons in order to have the strength to create a White Walker?

*ETA - if they are eating Craster's sons to create White Walkers, then Bran probably did eat Jojen. I would hate for that to be the case.

No, put it down to a bad explanation at the end of a late night after a hectic day.

I don't think Craster's sons are being eaten and do think that Craster's wives meant exactly what they said - that they are coming back and that if I'm reading the story boards aright, in the show the warning will be followed by the sons coming straight through the wall of Craster's place, which would also be consistent with Benioff & Weiss' emphasis on how important they see season 3.

What I was trying to suggest was that Craster's flesh and blood children are sitting on life support in a cave, projecting those shadows, as the Children/wood dancers may have done.

I'll cheerfully admit I don't hold this as a tenet of Heresy. I'm happy until contradicted by GRRM to accept some of the white lot as Craster's sons; but they are enigmatic and this is a matter of groping for a possible explanation of how it works.

[lysmonger]

what do you mean by shadows?

[Black Crow]

The white walkers are also frequently referred to as white shadows by the Wildlings, Will up the tree sees white shadows and Mormont complains of white shadows in the woods.

[lysmonger]

I dont know its plausible that they would tie up newborns on trees....