Heresy 31

[Black Crow]

Have a little theory that Bran himself is the 3EC

Not keen on that one. When Bran contacts Jon on the way up to the skirling pass he does so as a face in a tree and pokes his forehead with a branch not a beak

[Little Wing]

Found this quote on the Foreshadowing thread and thought I'd share because of the crow reference.

"I dreamt of a man without a face, waiting on a bridge that swayed and swung. On his shoulder perched a drowned crow with seaweed hanging from his wings."

How did the story go - only when the Morrigan landed on Cu Chulainn's shoulder did everyone believe him to be dead?

ETA: Galbart Glover and Maege Mormont are intrusted with Robb's will that states Jon is his heir. The initials are interesting - double G and double M. Who has these letters as initials? Ser Guyard Morrigen. Coincidence? Mayhaps. I'm reading Ghost Story by Peter Straub and I've noticed same initials keep popping up for different people and it's probably important, will see when I finish it.

[Black Crow]

I’ve been thinking… (I know, I know)

We’ve talked a lot on these threads about the need for balance between Ice and Fire or restoring the balance between the two. However while we readily identify Fire with the Red lot and Dragons, identifying Ice is both uncertain and controversial. Identifying it with the Others seems obvious, but where then do we place the Children of the Forest and by extension Bran. GRRM has admitted a connection of some kind between the Children and the Others and suggesting an alliance between the wood and the burners to defeat the Others is a complete non-starter. We have come to think of Jon as possibly tending to Ice, but why then does Bran name his own direwolf Summer? And what of the consequences of the old question as to whether the Dragons will save Westeros from the Others or whether the Others will save Westeros from the Dragons; if Jon should slay the dragons will that condemn Westeros to an everlasting Winter, while if Dany and her amazing dragons immolate the Others, Westeros will instead be condemned to an equally deadly endless Summer. Neither prospect is beguiling, so how is balance to be regained.

The answer I suggest lies in the fact that we should be concerned with Westeros alone. Blindingly obvious says you, but consider the Ravens – and the Direwolves.

We know that all raven-lore comes from the Children. The advent of Winter is always announced not by the usual black raven, but by a white raven.

Bran names his direwolf Summer, but Jon’s direwolf is white, the colour of Winter.

Restoration of the balance in Westeros may therefore depend on having both a Summer King (Bran) and a Winter King (Jon) ruling in harmony, because the problem is that the last King of Winter, the Nights King was overthrown by his brother the Stark of Winterfell. Is this the significance of the Stark in Winterfell business – that one Stark must rule as King of Summer in Winterfell and his brother must rule as King of Winter, or perhaps rule there turn and turn about.

Going on from there, the overthrow of the Nights King/King of Winter and his alliance with the Others/Sidhe ultimately came about as a result of the Andal conquest – interlopers from foreign parts with a religion alien to Westeros and whose most extreme form is seen in the Red Lot from far off Asshai. Its their intervention which has destroyed the balance and their defeat by both Bran (King of Summer) and Jon (King of Winter) which may restore it.

[Little Wing]

The connections between the two extremes that come to mind off hand are the Reed oath and the Children (or only greenseers?) having green, golden and red eyes (weirwoods as well). I like the idea of Bran and Jon being the balancing Kings. Would GRRM mayhaps want it to be three, on the other hand? Or maybe it's the number three that is "unbalanced", GRRM turning the symbolic number on its heels?

Weirwoods being white (ice) with red (fire) eyes also seem to be a balancing entity. Maybe burning them is a bit of like destroying a part of yourself, if you're the red lot?

[Melifeather]

I do not like this, Sam I am...I mean, Black Crow...I still view the providing of children as "wards" as a tradition that started with the Children, the same as the origin of Guest Right. I think the focus should remain on the original Pact and figuring out how exactly it was broken. I think we all smell a link to the Andals, since so many of the Night's Watch swear to the Seven.

Winter and Summer are natural cycles, but the length of each season is what's unnatural. It seems like it would make more sense if Bran had named his wolf "Spring", because then we could expect something good to happen after the impending long winter that we all expect is coming. I suspect that the Children are the origin of the unnatural cycles. A leftover side effect from when they tried to rid themselves of First Men.

I still think that there's an important connection between the Starks and the Targaryens, mainly because Brynden himself is Targ/Stark and Rhaegar sought out a Stark bride. I would still remain unsurprised if Mance turns out to be Rhaegar.

[armidil0]

I don't think a comparison to Summers name, and Ghosts color is fair. Kind of an apples to oranges situation. Now Summer to Ghost seems a fair comparison for me. Or White to Gray(i think summer was grey).

[Black Crow]

Definitely not Rhaegar, he was taken into the Watch as a young boy, the only survivor of a band of Wildlings. We've speculated before as to whether he actually was a Wildling or just a guest, but the point is that grew up in the Watch and ranged with the Watch, including visiting Winterfell as a young man. He didn't have time to be Rhaegar as well.

[Black Crow]

I don't think a comparison to Summers name, and Ghosts color is fair. Kind of an apples to oranges situation. Now Summer to Ghost seems a fair comparison for me. Or White to Gray(i think summer was grey).

Don't quite follow. The point I'm making that in Raven lore, which comes from the Children, White is the colour of Winter.

As to the thought of Spring, yes there has to be a Spring, just as there has to be an Autumn, but its Summer and Winter which are diametrically opposite - Ice and Fire if you like.

[Black Crow]

I still think that there's an important connection between the Starks and the Targaryens, mainly because Brynden himself is Targ/Stark

If you'referring to Brynden Rivers as was, he certainly had a Targaryen father, but his mother was a Blackwood, not a Stark

[Melifeather]

I had posited earlier that the Children are probably at fault for the unusual length of the seasons, and perhaps it'll be Bran's job to regulate the seasons and restore them to the natural lengths. Then you could view the unnatural lengths as a sort of "winter" and the restored, natural lengths as "summer"? I don't know....it seemed to make sense before I typed it! :idea:

[Melifeather]

If you'referring to Brynden Rivers as was, he certainly had a Targaryen father, but his mother was a Blackwood, not a Stark

Oh geez! :blushing:

Got hung up on the Stark loyalty.

[armidil0]

Don't quite follow. The point I'm making that in Raven lore, which comes from the Children, White is the colour of Winter.

As to the thought of Spring, yes there has to be a Spring, just as there has to be an Autumn, but its Summer and Winter which are diametrically opposite - Ice and Fire if you like.

You compared Summers name to Ghosts fur color. Saying that Bran would be Summer King and Jon Winter King. I think that's not a fair comparison.

White being the color of Winter...

White is the color of clarity and purity also.

White is also thought of as 'good' when set against black.

Winter is viewed as evil in the books though. :bang: I don't know what i'm talking about anymore. I'm going to bed. it's been too long.

[Black Crow]

You compared Summers name to Ghosts fur color. Saying that Bran would be Summer King and Jon Winter King. I think that's not a fair comparison.

White being the color of Winter...

White is the color of clarity and purity also.

White is also thought of as 'good' when set against black.

Winter is viewed as evil in the books though. :bang: I don't know what i'm talking about anymore. I'm going to bed. it's been too long.

No, all I was doing was pointing out that Bran, who thanks to the Crow was at least a little attuned to what's going on elected to call his direwolf Summer as a direct result of his vision. Jon's direwolf however is the colour of Winter as defined in Raven Lore.

ETA: while I acknowledge that white is associated with all those other things in our world, I'm concerned here with Martin's world and that Children/Raven lore association

[armidil0]

No, all I was doing was pointing out that Bran, who thanks to the Crow was at least a little attuned to what's going on elected to call his direwolf Summer as a direct result of his vision. Jon's direwolf however is the colour of Winter as defined in Raven Lore.

That makes more sense. Thanks. It's finals week and I haven't been thinking straight last couple of days.

[Melifeather]

I really don't see any of the Stark children pitted against each other. I do see them facing some trials, and perhaps choices to go against each other, but their father's words regarding the "wolf pack survives" will ensure they stay together.

[Tyryan Lannister]

No, all I was doing was pointing out that Bran, who thanks to the Crow was at least a little attuned to what's going on elected to call his direwolf Summer as a direct result of his vision. Jon's direwolf however is the colour of Winter as defined in Raven Lore.

ETA: while I acknowledge that white is associated with all those other things in our world, I'm concerned here with Martin's world and that Children/Raven lore association

The White Raven isn't just for Winter... it signals the change of all seasons. Pycell had a White Raven come from the Citadel during either Clash or Storm (don't remember which one) when the seasons "officially" changed to Autumn. The reason they use the white ravens is because this way they don't have to attach a message, everyone knows that it's a change in seasons... and, while the length of seasons does change, the order still doesn't (there always is an autumn of indeterminate length between summer and winter) we just don't really hear about autumns/springs because they are largely inconsequential, but the point remains that the white ravens signify a change in season, not just that Winter has arrived.

Edit: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/White_Ravens

[Melifeather]

The White Raven isn't just for Winter... it signals the change of all seasons. Pycell had a White Raven come from the Citadel during either Clash or Storm (don't remember which one) when the seasons "officially" changed to Autumn. The reason they use the white ravens is because this way they don't have to attach a message, everyone knows that it's a change in seasons... and, while the length of seasons does change, the order still doesn't (there always is an autumn of indeterminate length between summer and winter) we just don't really hear about autumns/springs because they are largely inconsequential, but the point remains that the white ravens signify a change in season, not just that Winter has arrived.

Edit: http://awoiaf.wester...hp/White_Ravens

It also states that the greenseers can speak through the ravens. I wonder if we cannot find proof of that statement in the books? It could help settle the 3EC=Bloodraven.

[Tyryan Lannister]

It also states that the greenseers can speak through the ravens. I wonder if we cannot find proof of that statement in the books? It could help settle the 3EC=Bloodraven.

I believe that Leaf tells them that the reason ravens were able to learn how to speak was because of the part of the soul of a deceased skinchanger that gets left behind after death

[armidil0]

Doesn't Leaf also say that before people wrote notes and attached them to the ravens, they would just warg the ravens and speak the message?

[Melifeather]

Dance, Bran POV, hardcover page 448:

The last greenseer, the singers called him, but in Bran's dreams he was still a three-eyed crow. When Meera Reed had asked him his true name, he made a ghastly sound that might have been a chuckle. "I wore many names when I was quick, but even I once had a mother, and the name she gave me at her breast was Brynden."........(Leaf explains) Only a little strength remains in his flesh. He has a thousand eyes and one, cut there is much to watch. One day you will know.

(later, Brans says to Meera and Jojen that maybe they can be greenseers too.) "No, Bran." Meera sounded sad.

"It is given to a few to drink of that green fountain whilst still in mortal flesh, to hear the whisperings of the leaves and see as the trees see, as the gods see," said Jojen. "Most are not so blessed. The gods gave me only greendreams. My task was to get you here. My part in this is done."

Page 450 mentions that:

Bran did not oft range with them (Summer & pack) in those days, but some nights he watched them from above.

Flying was even better than climbing.

Slipping into Summer's skin had become as easy for him as slipping on a pair of breeches once had been, before his back was broken. Changing his own skin for a raven's night-black feathers had been harder, but not as hard as he had feared, not with these ravens. "A wild stallion will buck and kick when a man tries to mount him, and try to bite the hand that slips the bit betwen his teeth," Lord Brynden said, "but a horse that has known one rider will accept another. Young or old, these birds have all been ridden. Choose one now, and fly."

(later, after flying successfully in a raven) "Someone else was in the raven," he told Lord Brynden, once he had returned to his own skin. "Some girl. I felt her."

"A woman, of those who sing the song of earth," his teacher said, "long dead, yet a part of her remains, just as a part of you would remain in Summer if your boy's flesh were to die upon the morrow. A shadow on the soul. She will not harm you."

"Do all the birds have singers in them?"

"All," Lord Brynden said. "It was the singers who taught the First Men to send messages by raven...but in those days, the birds would speak the words. The trees remember, but men forget, and so now they write the messages on parchment and tie them round the feet of birds who have never shared their skin."

(further down on page 451-452, Bran says:)

"I thought the greenseers were the wizards of the Children," Bran said. "The singers, I mean."

"In a sense. Those you call the Children of the forest have eyes as golden as the sun, but once in a great while one is born amongst them with eyes as red as blood, or green as the moss on a tree in the heart of the forest. By these signs do the gods mark those they have chosen to receive the gift. The chosen ones are not robust, and their quick years upon the earth are few, for every song must have its balance. But, once inside the wood they linger long indeed. A thousand eyes, a hundred skins, wisdom deep as the roots of ancient trees. Greenseers."

(Jojen explains what happens to the greenseers when they die) ...All their songs and spells, their histories and prayers, everything they knew about this world. Maesters will tell you that the weirwoods are sacred to the old gods. The singers believe they are the old gods. When singers die they become part of that godhood."

(page 455) One day I will be like him. The thought filled Bran with dread. Bad enough that he was broken, with his useless legs. Was he doomed to lose the rest too, to spend all of his years with a weirwood growing in him and through him? Lord Brynden drew his life from the tree, Leaf told them. He did not eat, he did not drink. He slept, he dreamed, he watched.....A thousand eyes, and hundred skins, wisdom deep as the roots of ancient trees. That was as good as being a knight. Almost as good, anyway.

(further down 455)

"He wants to go home," Meera told Bran. "He will not even try and fight his fate. He says the greendreams do not lie."......"He's being stupid," Meera said. "I'd hoped that when we found your three-eyed crow...now I wonder why we ever came."

It's after all this that he eats the weirwood seed paste and is able to slip into a weirwood.