Rereading Tyrion IV (ASOS)

[Lummel]

Wow. We three co-hosts have just posted in our chapter posting order. :)

[Lykos]

There is the "Sängerkrieg", I have nothing yet. Will try to remember. :dunce:

[Ragnorak]

There's Marsyas-- he stole a pan-pipe and challenged Apollo to a music duel; he got the Bolton treatment though. The Midas story is of the duel between Pan and Apollo-- everyone but Midas voted for Apollo, and earned himself ass ears for his trouble.

Any details that strike you? IIRC Apollo invented the lute but more often played the lyre which was a gift from Hermes(?). I know one of the competitions involved stolen cattle and I thought another involved a woman (everthing in Greek mythology involves a women) but the details are too fuzzy and jumbled in my head to compare it to the wedding scene here. Isn't there a story behind the invention of the lute involving a turtle shell or was that the lyre? I recall the flaying now, I would fear for Mance but he plays a harp.

Are you thinking of Leda and the Swan, but with Joffrey getting screwed over? :laugh:

I am also of the Peacock feathers being unlucky tribe, something that you shouldn't have in the house. I assume this comes from wanting to avoid the evil eye.

From a more literal point of view the whole feast is an example of pride coming before a fall.

Lyanna, you'll be glad to learn that your hair shirt is coming on nicely ;)

I was just thinking that peaches tend to have a more sexual connotation than even pears ;) . Besides the brothel named The Peach we also have the non-sexual (I hope) Renly's peach. Leda and the swan might have some Jaime/Cersei stuff but the idea of a twin for Joffrey is to awful to contemplate. How many swan references do we get in this series? Off the top of my head we have House Swann, Arya's three black swans, and these two swan meals in Tyrion.

[1234567]

I wonder if the Maiden, Mother ,Crone is also a sly nod at Margery, Cersei and Olenna. The scheming in KL has already begun, and althought the Lannisters won round 1 with the Sansa/Tyrion forced marriage, the Tyrells are about to give a savage rebuttal.

While the maiden should be innocent, maidens can often be wily, and similarly crones are known for slyness. This seems to fit with Marg and Olenna. Mothers are often seen as willing to do anything to protect their cubs and here we have Cersei (the Lioness) protecting her cub from an enemy, Tyrion. But this is a false enemy and it is the Maiden and Mother, the girl who is to step into Cersei's place and the woman who is still covetous of power and being in charge, that are her real enemies.

On a side note. If Jaime had accepted leaving the KG for Casterly Rock, do you think Pycelle etc would have "found" something in Joff's throat when it was examined? I only pose the question as there is a SSM where he notes that Tywin was being delusional if he thought he could stop Tyrion inheriting the Rock.

[butterbumps!]

Any details that strike you? IIRC Apollo invented the lute but more often played the lyre which was a gift from Hermes(?). I know one of the competitions involved stolen cattle and I thought another involved a woman (everthing in Greek mythology involves a women) but the details are too fuzzy and jumbled in my head to compare it to the wedding scene here. Isn't there a story behind the invention of the lute involving a turtle shell or was that the lyre? I recall the flaying now, I would fear for Mance but he plays a harp.

The stolen cattle wasn't a competition, but a trial. Hermes was always a bit of a trickster, and as a baby he stole a herd of Apollo's cattle. He then created a lyre from a tortoise, then went back to his bed and feigned ignorance. When Apollo came forward with accusations, and to smooth things over, began playing music on his lyre; Apollo was appeased, and forgave Hermes for the cattle heist in exchange for the lyre. I think this story could have potential connections to the trial where one of the singers testifies against Tyrion (who I can see playing the role of Hermes in this).

I don't believe that Apollo was ever connected to the lute, though. I think the lute has Middle Eastern origins, and became a "lute" in the Medieval West.

Is the woman you're thinking of in music myth Eurydice, by chance? This wasn't a competition, but Orpheus' appeal to Hades to return his recently dead wife to life. He played so well that Hades relented and allowed Eurydice to follow Orpheus out of the afterlife provided he didn't look back at her; he does look back as they approach the surface, and she recedes back into Hades. He then wanders the earth charming nature with his lyre, but the maenads rip him apart, killing him.

There's other god-mortal competitions, but I'm not sure how much relates to music; I know Arachne challenged Athena at weaving and was turned into a spider-- is that what you were thinking of?

[brashcandy]

The golen lute brings to mind The Devil Went Down to Georgia which fits nicely with Lummel's Mephistophelian take on Tyrion marrying Sansa. There are some Greek myths involving music competitions but the specific details escape me-- maybe someone who remembers the details wants to jump in. I seem to recall Apollo turning the ears of King Midas (of Tywin-like golden touch fame) into the ears of an ass. That might fit for the Tyrells making an ass of Tywin or Tywin (given the Lannister and Apollo sun connection) could be making an ass of Tyrion

Rag, perhaps the mythological archives in the Pawn to Player thread might help? Queen of Winter did extensive work highlighting some of these allusions in Sansa's arc. I've picked out two that might have some relevance now or later :)

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/72119-from-pawn-to-player-rethinking-sansa-x/page__st__200#entry3538980

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/64491-from-pawn-to-player-rereading-sansa-vi/page__st__160#entry3134018

[1234567]

Arya's three black swans,

*cough* slight thread derail *cough* sorry *cough*

One of the Arya as Valkyrie comparisons has to do with one of them transforming into a black Swan. Though they were all Wish Maidens and Swan maidens, there is a lot of coresponding imagery. I am not sure if there is a Norse Mythology link to Tyrion, but there certainly seems to be some with Arya and Sansa, so it maybe worth a look.

[Lummel]

The golden lute brings to mind The Devil Went Down to Georgia...

Yes those stories of the Devil teaching fiddling or guitaring skills for an immortal soul (slightly used). But I think the closest we get to that is the bargain that Symeon Silvertongue tries to strike with a certain twisted little monkey demon to take part in the competition.

There is the "Sängerkrieg", I have nothing yet. Will try to remember. :dunce:

I've been there! Though the Saengerkrieg hall is a little too small for a thousand guests and a dancing bear. But it definitely looks like the inspiration for the scene even with it's foreign accented singer.

...Leda and the swan might have some Jaime/Cersei stuff but the idea of a twin for Joffrey is to awful to contemplate. How many swan references do we get in this series? Off the top of my head we have House Swann, Arya's three black swans, and these two swan meals in Tyrion.

The Swan was Zeus and (for once) he wasn't having sex with his sister (who was also his wife of course) but as he did from time to time raping some lucky passer by.

I wonder if the Maiden, Mother ,Crone is also a sly nod at Margery, Cersei and Olenna. The scheming in KL has already begun, and althought the Lannisters won round 1 with the Sansa/Tyrion forced marriage, the Tyrells are about to give a savage rebuttal...

On a side note. If Jaime had accepted leaving the KG for Casterly Rock, do you think Pycelle etc would have "found" something in Joff's throat when it was examined? I only pose the question as there is a SSM where he notes that Tywin was being delusional if he thought he could stop Tyrion inheriting the Rock.

And in the Faith they specifically pray for the Crone show the way, to light the path which if Olenna is the instigator would be very apt.

The issue of something in the throat is very interesting. I don't think that had Jaime resigned the Kingsguard to spend less time with his family that this would have made any difference to the autopsy. Tyrion is still in the way. It is going to be worth returning to this when we get to that chapter there because clearly something could have been found considering that Pycelle was a Lannister lap dog.

[Lummel]

*cough* slight thread derail *cough* sorry *cough*

One of the Arya as Valkyrie comparisons has to do with one of them transforming into a black Swan. Though they were all Wish Maidens and Swan maidens, there is a lot of coresponding imagery. I am not sure if there is a Norse Mythology link to Tyrion, but there certainly seems to be some with Arya and Sansa, so it maybe worth a look.

Wayland the Smith might give you a link

[Lykos]

Lummel, did you also see Luther´s famous Ink stain? Maybe it was the inspiration for Tyrion throwing the porridge, and they´ll redo it in centuries to come to memorize the great deeds of the "Giant of Lannister".

ETA

Lohengrin (and Zeus and Semele) are also connected to the Sängerwettstreit.

[Winter's Knight]

The Swan was Zeus and (for once) he wasn't having sex with his sister (who was also his wife of course) but as he did from time to time raping some lucky passer by.

Zeus took the form of a swan when he seduced Leda, mother of Helen, who is (I believe) the only female mortal child he sired.

[1234567]

Wayland the Smith might give you a link

Interesting. Certainly a theme of loss and revenge going on there, with a smattering of wrongful imprisonment and sword swapping. Also I couldn't help but notice the first thing in the Wiki link was a reference to click here for the character of Voland from the Master and Margarita, who as pointed out previously has one green eye and one black eye. There maybe other links to that novel when we get to ADWD.

Edit: unless of course it is the Voland link you meant and I'm being an idiot......I'm being an idiot aren't I? :leaving:

Zeus took the form of a swan when he seduced Leda, mother of Helen, who is (I believe) the only female mortal child he sired.

I think Helen had a Twin sister Clytemnestra (she of the shortest mourning period in history) and also Castor and Pollux.

Edit: Oh I should add that Clytemnestra and Castor were fathered by her husband, not Zeus. Quadruplets born to two different fathers.

[Lummel]

Lummel, did you also see Luther´s famous Ink stain? Maybe it was the inspiration for Tyrion throwing the porridge, and they´ll redo it in centuries to come to memorize the great deeds of the "Giant of Lannister".

Naturally I saw it (much restored) on my pilgrimage to the cradle of the Reformation! That and the fairly black cell where some poor Anabaptist was imprisoned for years. Here is some

for all you who fancy a taste of medieval music.

Zeus took the form of a swan when he seduced Leda, mother of Helen, who is (I believe) the only female mortal child he sired.

oh ho 'seduced' did he? Mayhaps you think Europa and Ganymede had consented too? ;) Is that Helen of Troy or another Helen parfit gentil Knight?

[Lykos]

It´s Helen of Sparta aka Helen of Troy sister to Clytemnestra (wife to Agamemnon, mother of Iphigenia)

[Winter's Knight]

I think Helen had a Twin sister Clytemnestra (she of the shortest mourning period in history) and also Castor and Pollux.

Helen's mother ..err..produced two eggs: one brought forth Castor and Pollux, the other Helen and Clym. However since Leda had also lain with her husband that same night, Helen was the only one with divine blood.

oh ho 'seduced' did he? Mayhaps you think Europa and Ganymede had consented too? ;) Is that Helen of Troy or another Helen parfit gentil Knight?

Aye your grace, seduced, for he came to her as a swan pursued by murderous eagles and she gave him refuge. He gained her affections before he gained her bed.

'tis the very same Helen of Troy.

[1234567]

Helen's mother ..err..produced two eggs: one brought forth Castor and Pollux, the other Helen and Clym. However since Leda had also lain with her husband that same night, Helen was the only one with divine blood.

Indeed. I edited my post to clear that up. :)

[Elba the Intoner]

I wonder if the Maiden, Mother ,Crone is also a sly nod at Margery, Cersei and Olenna. The scheming in KL has already begun, and althought the Lannisters won round 1 with the Sansa/Tyrion forced marriage, the Tyrells are about to give a savage rebuttal.

While the maiden should be innocent, maidens can often be wily, and similarly crones are known for slyness. This seems to fit with Marg and Olenna. Mothers are often seen as willing to do anything to protect their cubs and here we have Cersei (the Lioness) protecting her cub from an enemy, Tyrion. But this is a false enemy and it is the Maiden and Mother, the girl who is to step into Cersei's place and the woman who is still covetous of power and being in charge, that are her real enemies.

On a side note. If Jaime had accepted leaving the KG for Casterly Rock, do you think Pycelle etc would have "found" something in Joff's throat when it was examined? I only pose the question as there is a SSM where he notes that Tywin was being delusional if he thought he could stop Tyrion inheriting the Rock.

I also thought of Marg, Cersei and Olenna for Maiden, Mother, Crone.

[Winterfellian]

Am coming way too late for the discussion, but this are just some few impressions in this chapters:

Tywin being aware of a plot to remove Joffrey: TBH I don't buy into this theory, however I do agree that Tywin's reaction is rather intriguing. But overall I don't feel the theory ties with Tywin's proud nature. This is the guy who doesn't even allow dissension among his own banner men. He could never had taken kindly to such a symbolic affront at the Lannister power, even if he didn't care much for Joffrey..

Personally I've always felt that his calculating mind was quick to perceive the advantages the new political sphere Joffrey-free presented and rolled with the punches:

A potential Aerys III was removed in favor of a more pliable monarch

Tommen's age ensures him not only a longer term as the regent but also the possibility to mold him up to his (Tywin's) ideas of what a ruler should be. No more of this "a strong king acts boldly" nonsense

Even if Margaery eventually married Tommen their marriage would be in stand by until the consummation, which could take years giving the Lannisters time to maneuver. (Is not coincidence I think that when Jaime makes a similar observation to Cersei in AFFC she responds that for a moment he sounded just like Tywin)

Tyrion being accused for kingslaying-kinslaying was just the icing in the cake as it rid him him of the dwarf son that bore the Lannister name only because he couldn't proove he wasn't his.

I think that much like with Jaime back in AGOT, he gave up on Joffrey the minute he realized he was going to die and his lack of reaction while everyone was shouting was his mind being heavy at work in how to best address the new situatio and come out on top.

I love Lummel's (?) observation about how he tried to desensitized Joffrey by referring to him as "the boy". It mirrors Stannis's own attempts to desensitized himself to Edric Storm (another bastard) by also resorting to calling him "the boy". In Edric's case we have Davos to reinforce in Stannis the notion that Edric Storm is a person and his kin whereas in Tywin we have Cersei's terrible grief over the loss of her son. Stannis was swayed by Davos's words into acknowledging Edric's name, in Tywin's case not even his daughter's grief filled cries could persuade him.

In ASOS there is a theme with marriages and rejection, of various degrees and in various forms.

The first and most obvious one is perhaps Robb rejecting his Frey bride and choosing Jeyne Westerling, where he both rejects the marriage on the face of it and its "functions". As we know, this has dire consequences for Robb, politically, since he was not ok with going through the motions of marrying his Frey and having someone "on the side" as it were. Robb is honourable and did the honourable thing towards Jeyne Westerling, while forsaking the political, but unhappy, alliance with the Freys.

In comparison, the next two marriages between Tyrion and Sansa; Joffrey and Margaery are completely political constructs. The involved parties care nothing for each other. as far as we know (although I am sure Marg pretended to dote on Joffrey). They are thrown together due to power struggles and political maneuvering. However, what happens under the "surface" is that the participants reject the marriage. Tyrion rejects the notion that he needs to consummate the marriage and rape his unwilling wife, despite Tywin pointing out that it's politically necessary. Sansa rejects the notion that "all men are beautiful" and that she should dutifully try and love the husband thrust upon her. Margaery and the Tyrells reject Joffrey, despite accepting him at a surface level. And their rejection of the political necessity to marry a monster is to have him murdered.

It also mirrors, I think, that marriages made for cynical political gain will not be functional. The participants will reject them due to their nature, and in the end, they will cause more trouble than they are worth. Often the political gain may even be undermined to a degree (as in the case of Tyrion/Sansa, I think, since it seems no Lannister heirs to Winterfell will come of that marriage), change the power structures (the Tyrells had a much larger chance of influence with Tommen as Marg's queen instead of Joffrey) or set them up to be hated for eternity (the Freys for the Red Wedding).

In these instances, marriage fails to be the unifying force and political positive it's meant to be. Instead it causes upheaval, death and divisiveness. I think the point of reconcilation is important. There seems to be a lack of reconcilation and a lack of common purpose. The weddings are just another stepping stone in the game of thrones and just another piece that can be played in the various families' and individuals' power grabs.

while I agree with you I have some issues with the bold part. While there's certainly a tendency to this I still think is an overstatement to say that that a marriage for cynical political gain will not be functional when he have a very clear example in the books with one that did: Ned Stark and Catelyn Tully. Even if they both found love and happiness in one another their wedding to me is a perfect example of one of cynical political gain. Ned needed the swords of House Tully for the rebellion and probably would not have gotten them had he and Jon Arryn not married Hoster's daughters, they didn't know each other, Ned stepped up to fill Brandon's place as one might change a flat tire and he probably even loved another woman. There something about their proceedings-Ned staying long enough to seal the deal before heading to war therefore binding the Tullys definitely to the rebel's cause- that reminds me very much of something akin to a business transaction. And the marriage was in fact a political transaction. And yet despite all this Ned and Cat made it work, prooving that a political marriage can become a unifying force. We have also the Alys-Sygurn marriage which might proove key to a unified north-wildings later on.

Finally, I very much agree with Ragnorak that Garlan's praise of Tyrion was sincere. He also praised him to Sansa when Tyrion wasn't in his hearing. Sorry Lummel ;)

[Lummel]

Yes you are right to point out the political marriages of Alys and Sigorn, Catelyn and The Ned. I say here, you know in the style of old Clausewitz, that in ASOIAF marriage is a continuation of politics by others means. The success or failure of those marriages is determined (a bit strong, but why not, lets say determined) by the politics of the individuals and the families involved.

There even a strategic asset element to the Sansa-Tyrion, Joffrey/Tommen-Margaery marriages. There is a benefit in simply denying access to that asset by tying it down, even in a fruitless relationship to prevent another party from gaining advantage from it. This is precisely the conversation the small council have in Tyrion VIII ACOK.

Ah Winterfellian and Ragnorak, I just can't believe you think Garlan is just a nice guy after five books of ASOIAF, he's obviously working overtime to put the couple at their ease. I can only imagine that your inherent goodness and the sweetness of your natures over powers the lessons that Walder Frey & co are teaching! ;)

[Silverin]

while I agree with you I have some issues with the bold part. While there's certainly a tendency to this I still think is an overstatement to say that that a marriage for cynical political gain will not be functional when he have a very clear example in the books with one that did: Ned Stark and Catelyn Tully. Even if they both found love and happiness in one another their wedding to me is a perfect example of one of cynical political gain. Ned needed the swords of House Tully for the rebellion and probably would not have gotten them had he and Jon Arryn not married Hoster's daughters, they didn't know each other, Ned stepped up to fill Brandon's place as one might change a flat tire and he probably even loved another woman. There something about their proceedings-Ned staying long enough to seal the deal before heading to war therefore binding the Tullys definitely to the rebel's cause- that reminds me very much of something akin to a business transaction. And the marriage was in fact a political transaction. And yet despite all this Ned and Cat made it work, prooving that a political marriage can become a unifying force. We have also the Alys-Sygurn marriage which might proove key to a unified north-wildings later on.

Finally, I very much agree with Ragnorak that Garlan's praise of Tyrion was sincere. He also praised him to Sansa when Tyrion wasn't in his hearing. Sorry Lummel ;)

I think there is a difference between the marriage of CatNed and the two Lannister marriages. Namely that in the case of Cat Ned both participannts had things to gain, there are no bad blood between the families, they are not rivals. It was a partnership. Both politically and so the marriage had a chance to become one as well.

The same cannot be said about the two Lannister marriages in ASoS. The tyrion Sansa is only beneficial to the Lannisters, not to mention there is two much bad blood between them (even tyrion sais that to Sans before he knows he will marry her, and even before the RW, that no marriage can fix that).

Look at the rival families Jaime met in Dance. Despite numerous attempt to bring peace by marriages among them it did not succeed, because the rivalry, the hard feelings won't go away, none of the participants wanted to become actual partners.

Then there is the Margaery-Joffrey one. It is beneficial both sides but there is obviously a rivalry between the two families. They don't want to be partners, both wants to rule the other one. That is why that cannot turn into partnership either, since the Lannisters and the Tyrells are only partners on the surface.

That is what I think anyway.