Stuff That's Confirmed/Hinted at in aWoIaF App, v.2

[Booknerd2]

Thanks so much for this.

Wonderfully put together and so organized and helpful and easy to read.

Can't wait to read it more slowly later today when I can.

Still laughing about Robert seeing Rhaegar crown Lyanna. And imagining in my mind all the smack talk and grumbling Robert might have thrown out. Surely Ned had to hear him bitch; wondered how he viewed the whole QOLAB bit. Surely, Ned had to tell his buddy to simmer down, yet wondering to himself what the hell that was all about. LOL!

But it makes you think that Lyanna's "abduction" was not a total blindside to Robert. The QOLAB thing had already happened and pissed him off.

But a part of me wonders if the QOLAB incident was Rhaegar letting Lyanna know she was on his radar, a compliment to her, or was it more planting a seed for others of what was to come. I just question the reasoning behind doing something like that in a very public forum such as a tournament.

Total speculation on my part that it is... but the thoughts crossed my mind.

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

You made me regret that I started posting here. *goes back to lurking*

:rolleyes:

[Miko]

Regarding Syrio does it say "he claims to be" or he "is" etc. ?

What does it say about he Hooded Man?

No articles on either and I haven't seen anything new on any related articles.

[butterbumps!]

Regarding Syrio does it say "he claims to be" or he "is" etc. ?

What does it say about he Hooded Man?

In Arya's entry, it says of Syrio's past: "A water dancer who was formerly First Sword to the Sealord of Braavos." Unfortunately, his death isn't spelled out as confirmed: "Syrio, sensing danger, intervenes, killing and injuring several of the guards with nothing more than his wooden practice sword. Ser Meryn fights him in turn, but is protected by his head-to-toe armor. Arya runs as Syrio commands, but not before seeing Trant's sword slice through Syrio's lead-cored stick."

On Tywin:

In case this was up for debate, Tywin did in fact order Gregor to kill Aegon and Rhaenys, "but CLAIMS he had not thought to specify that Elia be left unharmed, which led to her rape and murder at Gregor's hands."

On the Red Wedding, it is confirmed that Tywin, Roose and Walder have been plotting the betrayal of the Starks, with Sybell Spicer involved as well. I wanted to point this out because "Robb was an idiot" is sometimes argued on here, and I think this shows us that Robb was going to go down that way anyway. Unbeknownst to Jeyne, Sybell was tasked with getting Robb to sleep with Jeyne for the purpose of giving Walder Frey cause to betray him at a wedding.

Tysha: No entry for Tysha, but other entries confirm that she truly was not a prostitue, in case this is a question. It is said that after the rape "Tysha is then packed off for parts unknown."

Roose, Harrenhal + Weasel soup:

This summarizes nicely something that I think is kind of subtle. When Tywin leaves Harrenhal, Roose turns the Brave Companions, and "uses them to place northmen within the castle walls as alleged prisoners" which are then "freed" through the weasel soup episode. That's what Arya "didn't truly understand" that Jaqen was trying to get her to see after they did the soup-- the Brave Companions were already Roose's.

Roose relays false orders to Helman Tallhart and Robett Glover to attack Duskendale, where they are defeated by Tarly and Gregor. Roose alleged that these orders came from Robb, but the orders were his own.

The app cites Roose's official point of betrayal when Jaime and Brienne show up at Harrenhal. The app makes it sound like Tywin and Walder were already in cahoots about the RW when Roose joins in-- it says "Roose weds fat Walda, then joins in Lord Frey's conspiracy to murder Robb during Edmure's wedding."

[Scipio Africanus]

Posted this in another thread without realizing there was another one.

I saw that too. I just assumed that "being Mance" made everyone swifter and more powerful, lol.

-breaking news-

I was trying to cross-index a few entries to get a handle on the Azor Ahai business. So far, unless I'm mistaken, AA is not described as pertinent to Winter/ the Others. Only "the Great Other," but I still have to look at more entries. I thought that was interesting that things like the long night and other associated acts weren't directly connected, but I might be overlooking things.

Also, I'm not sure if this was in the text, but it's certainly something I didn't realize. The "stone dragons" Mel wants to wake via burning Edric are apparently from the Citadel: "[she wants to sacrifice Edric] so that she can use the sacrifice to raise one of the stone dragons of the Citadel to serve Stannis." wtf?

ALSO, another "I told you so" (lololol, sorry I can't resist):

Mel DID screw with Ghost: "Later, speaking to Jon, she calls Ghost to her and somehow momentarily interferes with Jon's connection to the direwolf, so that Ghost does not respond to Jon or come at his command."

There is NO question that Stannis' offer to Jon was contingent on his burning the Weirwoods at Winterfell (AND that Mel's behind the wildlings coming through- not Stannis):

"At her suggestion, Stannis allows the wilidings to pass through the wall..." Then "Melisandre attempts to convince Jon Snow to accept Stannis' offer, legitimizing him and granting him Winterfell if he burns the castle's ancient godswood."

It is also stated that Mel's objectives are highly Jon-centric, and wants him close:

"Knowing Jon is somehow essential to the struggle ahead, Mel is determined to win his trust." (!)

I think this is interesting too, as Mel's vision is neatly summarized in a less cryptic way:

"Yet, while her power seems far greater near the Wall than it ever did in Asshai, she still finds it hard to see Stannis in the fires after he has departed. When she looks for him, all she sees is snow [yes- lowercase-- BUT...]. Instead, it is Jon's Snow's face that keeps appearing, as do hundreds of skulls. She also sees towers by the sea pulled down by a black tide, great winged shadows flying through curtains of flame, and a wooden-face corpse of a boy with a wolf's face whom she blieves to be servants of the Great Other, the eternal enemy of R'hllor." What I thought was strange is that Bran is described here as a corpse, though I wonder if it's a typo, and meant to say a "wooden corpse" and a "boy with a wolf's head."

ALso-- it is confirmed that Mel's leeches played no role in killing any of the kings.

One of the more interesting reveals IMO.

4. For my own personal satisfaction, it is written plain as day that Lysa begged Jon Arryn to appoint LF to the job at customs as well as the fact that Lysa beseeched her husband a second time to bring LF to KL.

What does it say about LF's appointment as Master of Coin?

To that same end, it says

"[After Harrenhall] Rhaegar abducted Lyanna with the aid of Arthur Dayne and Oswell Whent." Not sure if that was mentioned here, but apparently Dayne and Whent were present to her "abduction."

Notably, there are no entries for Arthur Dayne (or Ashara), Oswell Whent or Gerold Hightower.

This too is quite interesting. Hightower wasn't present then, so how did he end up finding out where Rhaegar was hanging out?

On Tywin:

In case this was up for debate, Tywin did in fact order Gregor to kill Aegon and Rhaenys, "but CLAIMS he had not thought to specify that Elia be left unharmed, which led to her rape and murder at Gregor's hands."

On the Red Wedding, it is confirmed that Tywin, Roose and Walder have been plotting the betrayal of the Starks, with Sybell Spicer involved as well. I wanted to point this out because "Robb was an idiot" is sometimes argued on here, and I think this shows us that Robb was going to go down that way anyway. Unbeknownst to Jeyne, Sybell was tasked with getting Robb to sleep with Jeyne for the purpose of giving Walder Frey cause to betray him at a wedding.

First part is pretty much what Tywin said to Tyrion in SoS. He didn't ask Gregor to rape Elia, in fact he seemed under the impression Elia would be taken alive.

Second part is big news actually as it confirms the Tywin plot. Though how he could've forseen that Robb would go anywhere near the Crag (he assumed Robb would be marching towards him at Harrenhal) I don't know.

[butterbumps!]

Posted this in another thread without realizing there was another one.

What does it say about LF's appointment as Master of Coin?

Ok, to be fair to LF for a moment, the app does confirm that the man is smart. It does cite LF's own ingenuity leading to his promotion from Lysa's bringing him to KL to becoming Master of Coin (which I've never argued against, for the record). The app states that a large part of what makes LF's financial machinations successful is his appointment of competent men from the "middle classes" (that term isn't in the app, but I'm paraphrasing).

But I do think the app helps hammer home the point that he received his 2 big appoints through Lysa, and carried on an affair with her while at court. His own abilities got him the master of coin position, but Lysa got him to a place, without which he'd never have been considered.

The app does point out how nebulous his actual financial transactions are in a few places, though. Without stating it explicitly in these terms, I think the app confirms my understanding of LF's transactions as hedge-funding and speculation.

This too is quite interesting. Hightower wasn't present then, so how did he end up finding out where Rhaegar was hanging out?

It says that Aerys sent Hightower to recall Rhaegar to his duties, and from the look of the app, it seems to suggest that Aerys assumed or knew Rhaegar would be at the ToJ.

Apple will kill me for this next part, but I suppose better me than someone who doesn't believe R+L. Regarding ordering the KG:

"Rhaegar ordered Ser Gerold, Ser Arthur and Ser Oswell to keep guard over Lyanna in the south."

So Aerys sends Hightower to retrieve Rhaegar. Rhaegar leaves to take up his duties, but orders the 3 KG to stay guard over Lyanna before departing. I don't think this disproves R+L or that they were married, btw. I still think that "Rhaegar ordered" them means that Rhaegar told them that Lyanna's child was the true king, and that this is the nature of what "ordering them" means.

I don't, however, think this in any way means that Jon is or should be king now, just to put it out there.

Second part is big news actually as it confirms the Tywin plot. Though how he could've forseen that Robb would go anywhere near the Crag (he assumed Robb would be marching towards him at Harrenhal) I don't know.

I think the implication is that the plot hatched with Sybell particularly after Robb had come and was recuperating there. I don't think Tywin orchestrated Robb to go there in the first place with the intention of having Jayne seduce Robb.

[Winter's Knight]

Bump at the time that Rhaegar ordered the KG to stay with Lyanna, wouldn't Aegon have been next in line? Jon and Lyanna'd still be of the blood royal and thus entitled to the KG though.

[butterbumps!]

Bump at the time that Rhaegar ordered the KG to stay with Lyanna, wouldn't Aegon have been next in line? Jon and Lyanna'd still be of the blood royal and thus entitled to the KG though.

Yes, I didn't mean that at the point at which Rhaegar ordered the KG to stay with Jon that Jon was already king through succession. I meant that he told the 3 KG to stay with Lyanna, as she would be giving birth to an heir, should anything become of Rhaegar and Aerys and Aegon. I'm trying to say that his "orders" were not just to guard "royal blood" but an heir.

I think the point that many R+L supporters make-- that the KG doesn't flee, and would not have stayed by Rhaegar's orders alone if Jon were not in fact the legal heir-- still stands. That's what I was trying to say.

[Lady Sansa Stark]

What else can I say than :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

:bowdown:

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

I finally caved and got the app for my iPad. So yay. Thank you so much for compiling the post with the new information! It's very helpful.

- So Petyr and Lysa were carrying on an affair while Jon Arryn was alive. That makes me wonder just whose son Sweetrobin really is. But there's no way to prove that SR is not Jon Arryn's trueborn son at this time. It would be ironic, though, if Jon were trying to figure out if Cersei's kids were illegitimate, and it turned out his own son wasn't really his!

- Petyr sounds like he has been up to some financial shenanigans. I wonder if those will catch up with him.

- We all knew that Victarion Greyjoy beat his wife to death because Euron raped her. :( But the app goes on to state that Mrs. Vic was pregnant with Euron's child and that is how Vic found out. I wonder how he knew it wasn't his child? Is he impotent or sterile or was he just away doing some raiding during the time window when that child would have been conceived?

- Sybell Spicer is absolute scum. "Scheming turncloak bitch" isn't the half of it. I wish her the worst fate; maybe she'll meet Qyburn, ha ha. It sounds like she deliberately used Jeyne as bait to lure Robb into a trap AND made sure that Jeyne wouldn't have any children with him. Poor, poor Jeyne.

[Winter's Knight]

Sybill's family were Lannister bannermen though-and don't they live near the Reyne lands?

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

Sybill's family were Lannister bannermen though-and don't they live near the Reyne lands?

Yes, but her treatment of her own daughter was what capped it for me. Jeyne really loved Robb, or so it seems (maybe it will be revealed otherwise in one of the later books) and all the while her mother was using her as bait for a king-trap.

[Kittykatknits]

Yes, I didn't mean that at the point at which Rhaegar ordered the KG to stay with Jon that Jon was already king through succession. I meant that he told the 3 KG to stay with Lyanna, as she would be giving birth to an heir, should anything become of Rhaegar and Aerys and Aegon. I'm trying to say that his "orders" were not just to guard "royal blood" but an heir.

I think the point that many R+L supporters make-- that the KG doesn't flee, and would not have stayed by Rhaegar's orders alone if Jon were not in fact the legal heir-- still stands. That's what I was trying to say.

BB- I'm trying to match this with the TOJ scene. From this, it confirms that the 3 members of the KG were sent to guard over Lyanna as she was pregnant at the time with what would be a potential heir to the throne. Aegon was still alive at this point. However, from the TOJ scene, it seems that knowledge of the events of KL had reached the three of them. So, they had decided to stay because at that time Jon would have been the rightful king.

Seems like this is a confirmation of what we had been previously been thinking, it just helps clarify why the three of them first ended up there to begin with.

Yes, but her treatment of her own daughter was what capped it for me. Jeyne really loved Robb, or so it seems (maybe it will be revealed otherwise in one of the later books) and all the while her mother was using her as bait for a king-trap.

That's what stood out to me. It wasn't even that she was using her as a bait for the king-trap. Worse, it seemed like she was using her daughter's body to seduce him in order to advance the family fortune. And, it was actually Cat's idea to keep Jeyne at RR. What would have happened if Jeyne had gone with Robb?

[butterbumps!]

BB- I'm trying to match this with the TOJ scene. From this, it confirms that the 3 members of the KG were sent to guard over Lyanna as she was pregnant at the time with what would be a potential heir to the throne. Aegon was still alive at this point. However, from the TOJ scene, it seems that knowledge of the events of KL had reached the three of them. So, they had decided to stay because at that time Jon would have been the rightful king.

Seems like this is a confirmation of what we had been previously been thinking, it just helps clarify why the three of them first ended up there to begin with.

lol, I think I explained this in the most hamfisted way possible, sorry. Yea, I'm saying that when Aerys sent Hightower to retrieve Rhaegar, Lyanna was pregnant with an heir. Rhaegar told the 3 KG that this is in fact a direct heir (i.e. not a bastard), and ordered them to stay. After Aerys, Aegon and Rhaegar died, Ned comes to the ToJ to fetch Lyanna, and yes, I believe that the KG were well aware of what had happened and that they were guarding the "king." And hence, why they did not flee.

Doran:

In other Rhaegar-Elia news, the app does specify that Doran was truly livid when Rhaegar crowned Lyanna at Harrenhal.

It cites Doran's endgame as ruling the entirety of Wetseros beside a Targaryen.

Bowen Marsh:

Aliases: "A Scum," "Count Scum," "Count von Count"*

*ok, that one's a lie

[Kittykatknits]

lol, I think I explained this in the most hamfisted way possible, sorry. Yea, I'm saying that when Aerys sent Hightower to retrieve Rhaegar, Lyanna was pregnant with an heir. Rhaegar told the 3 KG that this is in fact a direct heir (i.e. not a bastard), and ordered them to stay. After Aerys, Aegon and Rhaegar died, Ned comes to the ToJ to fetch Lyanna, and yes, I believe that the KG were well aware of what had happened and that they were guarding the "king." And hence, why they did not flee.

No worries, thank you for clarifying. That's what I had thought but wanted to make certain. I've been picking this apart and for a brief moment there, I had myself thinking this undermines my understanding of Jon's birth. Even if Rhaegar had left the three of them with instructions to guard Lyanna, I don't see why they would remain to do so when they had news that Viserys had been crowned. Why choose to guard a bastard instead? Just doesn't make sense.

Thanks.

[Scipio Africanus]

Ok, to be fair to LF for a moment, the app does confirm that the man is smart. It does cite LF's own ingenuity leading to his promotion from Lysa's bringing him to KL to becoming Master of Coin (which I've never argued against, for the record). The app states that a large part of what makes LF's financial machinations successful is his appointment of competent men from the "middle classes" (that term isn't in the app, but I'm paraphrasing).

But I do think the app helps hammer home the point that he received his 2 big appoints through Lysa, and carried on an affair with her while at court. His own abilities got him the master of coin position, but Lysa got him to a place, without which he'd never have been considered.

The app does point out how nebulous his actual financial transactions are in a few places, though. Without stating it explicitly in these terms, I think the app confirms my understanding of LF's transactions as hedge-funding and speculation.

Well then we can conclude LF's performance at Gulltown alone wasn't enough to get him promoted to the position in KL.

That he is a crooked banker, well, that's no real surprise either.

lol, I think I explained this in the most hamfisted way possible, sorry. Yea, I'm saying that when Aerys sent Hightower to retrieve Rhaegar, Lyanna was pregnant with an heir. Rhaegar told the 3 KG that this is in fact a direct heir (i.e. not a bastard), and ordered them to stay. After Aerys, Aegon and Rhaegar died, Ned comes to the ToJ to fetch Lyanna, and yes, I believe that the KG were well aware of what had happened and that they were guarding the "king." And hence, why they did not flee.

What surprises me is that Gerold Hightower followed Rhaegar's orders, and didn't accompany him to the Trident. I can imagine Arthur Dayne (and apparently Oswell Whent) following his orders, as they were friends, but Hightower strikes me as the kind of guy who wouldn't be stuck on baby sitting duty just like that.

It still doesn't disprove R+L=J though, as you've mentioned. They absolutely knew they were guarding the real heir to the Throne when Eddard arrived at the ToJ (knowing everything that happened).

Yes, but her treatment of her own daughter was what capped it for me. Jeyne really loved Robb, or so it seems (maybe it will be revealed otherwise in one of the later books) and all the while her mother was using her as bait for a king-trap.

Yeah I find this shocking too. What kind of mother would prostitute her own daughter like that.

ps @ BB what does it say about the PW? Or doesn't this event get mentioned beyond "Joff got poisoned and Tyrion blamed"? Thanks.

[butterbumps!]

Oh- one more thing on Rhaegar and Aemon

I think a number of us had assumed this already, but here it is confirmed. "One day Rhaegar read a book of a promised prince who would fight against a great evil and became convinced that he was that prince."

This is one of my pet theories related to this that's now confirmed too: "He corresponded with Maester Aemon on the Wall, who discussed the prophesy with him."

So the book that turned Rhaegar from bookish to knightish was in fact a prophesy about a Promised Prince. And Aemon and he discussed it over raven mail. Hmm.....I think Aemon knows who Jon is. Before he leaves, Aemon just happens to mark a section of the book the Jade Compendium that speaks of AA for Jon read. Just interesting to think about what Aemon was thinking here. Aemon reveals later that he thinks this PtwP figure is Dany, but I wonder what provoked him to show Jon the same prophesy he discussed with Jon's father.

Also, ToJ

The app states that there were in fact "rumors" of Rhaegar and Lyanna being at the ToJ, which might answer how Aerys knew to send Hightower there.

What surprises me is that Gerold Hightower followed Rhaegar's orders, and didn't accompany him to the Trident. I can imagine Arthur Dayne (and apparently Oswell Whent) following his orders, as they were friends, but Hightower strikes me as the kind of guy who wouldn't be stuck on baby sitting duty just like that.

It's not really baby-sitting duty but "King-sitting" duty (potentially) from a KG perspective.

ps @ BB what does it say about the PW? Or doesn't this event get mentioned beyond "Joff got poisoned and Tyrion blamed"? Thanks.

The app confirms that Olenna (bless her soul) is the one who poisoned Joff.

ETA: Scip, I'll be magnanimous in my LF victory ^_^ But I think we learned an important lesson here, which is don't fuck with me about LF! (jokes, jokes)

[Winter's Knight]

ETA: Scip, I'll be magnanimous in my LF victory ^_^ But I think we learned an important lesson here, which is don't fuck with me! (jokes, jokes)

Fixed that for you. :P

[Dr. Pepper]

Doran:

It cites Doran's endgame as ruling the entirety of Wetseros beside a Targaryen.

This is sort of disappointing as I was just starting to reread some Dornish POV's, motivated by a very interesting discussion about the Water Gardens. Doesn't fit at all with the ideas and theories I had going into the reread.

Bowen Marsh:

Aliases: "A Scum," "Count Scum," "Count von Count"*

Really pleased and clapping my hands....

*ok, that one's a lie

...shoulders sagging.

[Lykos]

<snip>

Bowen Marsh:

Aliases: "A Scum," "Count Scum," "Count von Count"*

*ok, that one's a lie

:rofl:

ETA: Still I´m surprised that Hightower was ordered to stay put, since as LC of the KG has the duty to coordinate them. Of course it highlights the importance of the task. I just had the idea that Hightower might not be aware of all the facts of Lyanna´s child other than being a potential legitimate heir. This way it looks as if Rhaegar made it clear that everything depends upon the wellbeing of Lyanna´s child, for I don´t think he was so arrogant to believe he couldn´t loose.

(On the other hand, I believe that Stannis was convinced of victory at the Blackwater since he thought he magically averted the prophecy of Renly beating him. Maybe it was something similar.)