Stuff That's Confirmed/Hinted at in aWoIaF App, v.2

[Kittykatknits]

But again, at this point the Lannisters looked weaker than ever. Whispering Wood and Oxcross were crushing defeats for them. The timeline is murky, but I am pretty sure they didn't have the Tyrell alliance just yet. Why join a side which looked to be losing when you joined their enemies and missed a golden opportunity to help the Lannisters earlier when they were in much better position?

And as long as Robb didn't marry anyone else, nobody would've bought Walder's outrage. Nobody expect male nobles to be completely faithful to their betrothed, even married men having bastards is seen as pretty normal. Nobody really cares about it, least of all Walder Frey with his many bastards.

I'm still trying to figure this out too. I do wonder if is a possibilty that Walder was hedging his bets a little? There seems like an awful lot of IFs in the plan so he may have begun looking for an alternate plan to come out in a good position. If Tywin reached out to him first, then he may very well have been intending to turn Walder in to a patsy the entire time.

Seems that Doran has more backbone that I expected. He was livid when Rhaegar crowned Lyanna as Queen of love and beauty and was angry at his treatment of Elia. Plus, he wanted to send Arianne to Tyrosh so as to know Viserys more but his wife Lady Mellaria didn't want to lose a child again after Quentyn was sent to the Yronwoods. She vowed to kill herself if he did.

This makes me wonder about Elia. As they were siblings, I'm sure that Doran and Elia were in contact with each other and she would have shared her feelings over Rhaeger's actions. I've seen theories floated, ones that I don't necessarily agree with, that Elia was happy for Rhaeger and might have considered his relationship with Lyanna a blessing. Doran's reactions have me wondering about that.

[Quentyn Baratheon]

At least this new info seems to put an end to "Tywin never would've given OK to the RW if Jaime was still captive at Riverrun", since it confirms Tywin and Walder started plotting it before he was released. I certainly won't miss arguing about this, LOL...

LOL.

When the matter is discussed in Cersei's Council, everybody is awkward. There's lion paw all over it, just like Elia's murder.

[Kittykatknits]

At least this new info seems to put an end to "Tywin never would've given OK to the RW if Jaime was still captive at Riverrun", since it confirms Tywin and Walder started plotting it before he was released. I certainly won't miss arguing about this, LOL...

Best thing found out from the App so far. :)

[butterbumps!]

Aemon and Jon - I'd like to think he knew....but considering his understanding of the song of ice and fire if he had known that Lyanna and Rhaegar had a child then he wouldn't even be thinking that Dany is tptwp.

I also agree that he was merely trying to show Jon that Stannis wasn't the real AA with the Jade Compendium which helped him see the Mel situation a little more clearly.

Keep in mind, though, that Aemon only learns of Dany's dragons after departing from the Wall. It's hearing of the dragons that makes him believe Dany is AA/ PtwP, and to Aemon, the two are the same thing-- he seems to subscribe to the belief in AA as a hero of sorts (which makes sense that a Targ would think a firebrand is a hero, when you think about it).

I agree he gives Jon the passage to show that Stannis is not AA, but when I have more time, I can go through the text and pull passages that have led me to question how much Aemon knew of Jon. I do think it's more than a bit curious that he happens to give this information to the son of the man he used to discuss this very prophesy about.

[LordBloodraven]

This makes me wonder about Elia. As they were siblings, I'm sure that Doran and Elia were in contact with each other and she would have shared her feelings over Rhaeger's actions. I've seen theories floated, ones that I don't necessarily agree with, that Elia was happy for Rhaeger and might have considered his relationship with Lyanna a blessing. Doran's reactions have me wondering about that.

Perhaps but the app says that Doran was not particularly close to his two younger siblings due to the difference of age (9 years). Actually, he said that Elia was likely to die within the year as did all his other siblings. I don't buy the theory that Elia was happy for Rhaegar. Most likely he felt like Doran about Rhaegar's affair (Doran didn't send troops to the Mad King until Rhaegar came from the Tower of Joy where he supplied them with 10,000 spearmen).

[Kanon]

From the new info on the RW, I think the show will make Talisa a spy working for Tywin/Walder. I would love it if this were true since their love story is incredibly contrived >_>

[The Mother of The Others]

I'd like y'all to please shoot this Ashara theory down quickly before it even becomes a speed bump, thus putting all of our minds at ease.

Disclaimer: I've made a career out of not giving a crap about the Ashara mystery because I assumed whatever really happened back then has been too well shielded by the author for us to figure out before he reveals it. So this is based only on what's been mentioned in this topic and not on "me actually remembering the relevant passages from the books."

What occurred to me is, wouldn't it be wonderfully ironic (the kind of thing authors can't resist) if Jon himself had been baby-switched at birth the same way he orchestrated the recent baby switch at the wall. Both baby switches would have been done to save a kid. The "stillborn" baby of Ashara wasn't stillborn. It was the one taken and killed in the place of Rheagar's son with Lyanna so that Jon could live. A show was put on by someone (Ned???) of putting an end to the Targaryen line for the benefit of those who knew of the infant king's existence. This may be what Ned promised to do for Lyanna??? Then Ashara would have been so devastated as to throw herself from the tower. Eh, there's probably a timing problem (Ashara's baby not born yet in order for the exchange to be possible) or logistics problem (Ashara nowhere near the Tower of Joy). Also, everybody who knew of the infant king may have already been dead (the kingsguard being the last), so a show of killing a baby may not have been necessary. But for the moment this :bs: is leaping and bounding in the brain.

[butterbumps!]

I'd like y'all to please shoot this Ashara theory down quickly before it even becomes a speed bump, thus putting all of our minds at ease.

Disclaimer: I've made a career out of not giving a crap about the Ashara mystery because I assumed whatever really happened back then has been too well shielded by the author for us to figure out before he reveals it. So this is based only on what's been mentioned in this topic and not on "me actually remembering the relevant passages from the books."

What occurred to me is, wouldn't it be wonderfully ironic (the kind of thing authors can't resist) if Jon himself had been baby-switched at birth the same way he orchestrated the recent baby switch at the wall. Both baby switches would have been done to save a kid. The "stillborn" baby of Ashara wasn't stillborn. It was the one taken and killed in the place of Rheagar's son with Lyanna so that Jon could live. A show was put on by someone (Ned???) of putting an end to the Targaryen line for the benefit of those who knew of the infant king's existence. This may be what Ned promised to do for Lyanna??? Then Ashara would have been so devastated as to throw herself from the tower. Eh, there's probably a timing problem (Ashara's baby not born yet in order for the exchange to be possible) or logistics problem (Ashara nowhere near the Tower of Joy). But for the moment this :bs: is leaping and bounding in the brain.

Oh boy.

Ashara's baby being female and stillborn is very much confirmed.

The irony you seek is still there, though. Jon has Sam take Gilly with Mance's baby and pass Gilly off as his lover and raise the kid as his own bastard. I think it's as simple as that-- Jon asks Sam to claim he fathered a baby on Gilly for the sake of raising the kid safely.

[The Mother of The Others]

Also confirms that he's the one who was supposed to be the Stallion Who Mounts the World. So there's the issue of whether the prophecy died with him or if it'll be fulfilled elsewhere.

The soul transference theory still works well here for me anyways. The Stallion soul migrated, as part of Daenerys' ongoing struggle to enact her own fate vs. the dark forces that'd strike down her destiny. First Mirri Maz messes with the soul to derail its destiny, then Daenerys steps in and piggybacks her own fire ceremony onto the previous magic, yielding this path for the fiery soul of the Stallion that will mount the world: Rheago --> Drogo --> Dragon(s) birthed by the soul's animating force. She is described as the mother of dragons after all. So her child(ren) will still mount the world. Harder than ever. (For those who don't want to give up on the Stallion thing for fear that it might signal an end to Danny's winning chances).

[PatrickStormborn]

Does the app mention anything about the relationship between Ned and Ashara? I'm still hoping that her stillborn daughter is Ned's.

The soul transference theory still works well here for me anyways. The Stallion soul migrated, as part of Daenerys' ongoing struggle to enact her own fate vs. the dark forces that'd strike down her destiny. First Mirri Maz messes with the soul to derail its destiny, then Daenerys steps in and piggybacks her own fire ceremony onto the previous magic, yielding this path for the fiery soul of the Stallion that will mount the world: Rheago --> Drogo --> Dragon(s) birthed by the soul's animating force. She is described as the mother of dragons after all. So her child(ren) will still mount the world. Harder than ever. (For those who don't want to give up on the Stallion thing for fear that it might signal an end to Danny's winning chances).

The app doesn't really confirm anything where this is concerned. Rhaego was supposed to be the stallion who mounts the world... but the prophecy was misinterpreted. That doesn't mean the prophecy is dead and will not come to pass.

[butterbumps!]

Does the app mention anything about the relationship between Ned and Ashara? I'm still hoping that her stillborn daughter is Ned's.

The app doesn't really confirm anything where this is concerned. Rhaego was supposed to be the stallion who mounts the world... but the prophecy was misinterpreted. That doesn't mean the prophecy is dead and will not come to pass.

Not really, only that Ned danced with her after Brandon asked on his behalf, and even that's a bit fuzzy.

I hope I'm not alone here in hoping this "Horse on Planet Sex Hero" does not come to pass.

[FittleLinger]

Not really, only that Ned danced with her after Brandon asked on his behalf, and even that's a bit fuzzy.

I hope I'm not alone here in hoping this "Horse on Planet Sex Hero" does not come to pass.

Not only that I hope and think will not come to pass, I think it was a literary device by Martin to show us that prophecies can be destroyed, and will not always "fulfill one way or another". That the future can change.

Just like Martin won't make an all-powerfull wizard come and kill with lightning bolts whoever he wishes (which would be the deus-ex machina and actually everything bad-writing related in one), the same way he won't make prophecies all powerfull, because essentially we will know what will happen, just not in what way exactly it will be fulfilled.

[Winter's Knight]

Not really, only that Ned danced with her after Brandon asked on his behalf, and even that's a bit fuzzy.

I hope I'm not alone here in hoping this "Horse on Planet Sex Hero" does not come to pass.

Eh, it's probably just Dany uniting all the khalisars. Less khalisars=less fighting. Maybe she'll get them all to stay in Dosh Khaleen and cut out the whole marauding thing.

[PatrickStormborn]

Not really, only that Ned danced with her after Brandon asked on his behalf, and even that's a bit fuzzy.

Okay, thanks. :)

I hope I'm not alone here in hoping this "Horse on Planet Sex Hero" does not come to pass.

Eh, I hope it does. The Dothraki are a very patriarchal culture (no woman has even set foot on the Mother of Mountains). A woman being their prophesised leader can only be a good thing for their culture, surely? :)

[Lord Martin]

I'm still hung up on the new RW info. It makes very little sense to me that Lord Frey would ally with Robb and then turn on him while Robb is winning the war. Blackwater hasn't happened yet, Theon hasn't taken Winterfell, Bran and Rickon are still "alive."

If the Global Timeline is right, Tywin leaves Harrenhal around the same time Ramsay marries and kills Lady Hornwood. Once Tywin is in the field and fighting Edmure on the Red Fork... I find it hard to believe he is simultaneously corresponding with Frey or Spicer or Bolton.

Robb then sleeps with and marries Jeyne basically during the Battle of Blackwater.

And if Roose hasn't turned by the end of ACOK, it takes a lot of the enjoyment out of the Arya chapter at the end. Roose makes mention of hunting wolves and that he is not a man to be undone. He sends Tallhart and Glover to Duskendale. Less than 2 weeks later Tywin tells Tyrion that he knows about the planned attack on Duskendale, knows who is leading it and has sent Gregor and Tarly to deal with it. I don't see how Tywin could know all this w/o Roose telling him.

Also, the APP is just flat out wrong if it says Roose married Fat Walda after holding Harrenhal. He married Walda after the loss at Ruby Ford and writes to her while he holds Harrenhal. If thats wrong, it really makes me questions what else is wrong.

[DaveSumm]

I'm still hung up on the new RW info.

Same here. I don't quite follow the line of reasoning here, why exactly are we sure now that Frey didn't turn after Robb married Jeyne? I don't understand the point in altering the basic narrative: Walder sides with Robb, Robb marries someone else, Walder seems suspiciously OK with it.......oh wait, he's not OK at all. With all the build up about him being prickly about family honour and the Frey's being disrespected, there was nothing missing from this whole thing, it's a mystery-less part of the story.

[Lord Martin]

Roose, Harrenhal + Weasel soup:

This summarizes nicely something that I think is kind of subtle. When Tywin leaves Harrenhal, Roose turns the Brave Companions, and "uses them to place northmen within the castle walls as alleged prisoners" which are then "freed" through the weasel soup episode. That's what Arya "didn't truly understand" that Jaqen was trying to get her to see after they did the soup-- the Brave Companions were already Roose's.

Roose relays false orders to Helman Tallhart and Robett Glover to attack Duskendale, where they are defeated by Tarly and Gregor. Roose alleged that these orders came from Robb, but the orders were his own.

The app cites Roose's official point of betrayal when Jaime and Brienne show up at Harrenhal. The app makes it sound like Tywin and Walder were already in cahoots about the RW when Roose joins in-- it says "Roose weds fat Walda, then joins in Lord Frey's conspiracy to murder Robb during Edmure's wedding."

This is the one I had a problem with. Roose marries Fat Walda after the battle of Ruby Ford... while Robb is being made a King at Riverrun. I thought that was pretty explicit but I could be mistaken.

[Lord Martin]

Same here. I don't quite follow the line of reasoning here, why exactly are we sure now that Frey didn't turn after Robb married Jeyne? I don't understand the point in altering the basic narrative: Walder sides with Robb, Robb marries someone else, Walder seems suspiciously OK with it.......oh wait, he's not OK at all. With all the build up about him being prickly about family honour and the Frey's being disrespected, there was nothing missing from this whole thing, it's a mystery-less part of the story.

Yeah, it took me three reads before I felt like I had the exact chronology of Roose's betrayal down pat... this throws a wrench or two in that....

This new narrative would imply that Lord Frey was content to let his men (including his heir) die fighting for Robb when he knew he was going to betray Robb as soon as possible... just doesn't smell right... for all Lord Frey knew, Robb was about to sack Lannisport or the Rock or might have otherwise dealt Tywin a crippling blow... just doesn't add up.

[DaveSumm]

This is the one I had a problem with. Roose marries Fat Walda after the battle of Ruby Ford... while Robb is being made a King at Riverrun. I thought that was pretty explicit but I could be mistaken.

Yea exactly, so Walder changed his mind the second Robb was out the door? Which implies he didn't even change his mind, he just pretended to swear fealty to the north and was always going to betray him? I don't really buy this, it means Robb's entire marriage to Jeyne was completely irrelevant.

[DaveSumm]

Actually I'm now convinced the app is wrong. It says he marries Walda after all the Harrenhal stuff which isn't true, so the single line 'he marries Fat Walda' just needs to move up a paragraph and the whole thing makes sense again. Then it would go marries - takes Harrenhal - aligns with Tywin as we thought all along.