Stuff That's Confirmed/Hinted at in aWoIaF App, v.2

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I think the reason why under the Quaithe bio it states, "the lion appears to refer to Tyrion reaching Meereen," because we know Tyrion is there, but Daenerys has yet to meet him.

Very possible. I don't doubt that it IS Tyrion, just a weird way to put it.

[kissdbyfire]

Robb Stark:

<...>

Following the ailing Lord Hoster Tully's death, Lothar Frey arrives from the Twins to negotiate a settlement with Robb. Lord Walder insists that Edmure, the new Lord of Riverrun, wed one of his daughters and that Robb offer an apology for breaking his word. Lady Catelyn counsels Robb to accept the terms. So, leaving Jeyne behind with her mother, Robb marches to the Twins for Edmure's wedding. Along the way, he concludes that he must make sure Winterfell has an heir should anything happen to him, and over Catelyn's objections legitimizes Jon Snow and names him his heir. He signs the decree before witnesses, then sends Galbart Glover and Maege Mormont to carry the word north. At the same time, Robb learns of Balon Greyjoy's death and discusses his plans for using the crannogmen to attack Moat Cailin from the swamp side.

Does anyone else find it odd (and off) that it says specifically that Robb sent Glover and Mormont to carry the word north about Jon now being legitimate and heir? I mean, that's not what's in the book. Not sure what to make of this.

[History of Westeros]

This is the best argument I've heard for the idea that Sybil and Rolph pushed Jeyne at Robb. I've really got nothing against it other than.. wow thats really risky and scummy on their part.

I always thought Roose Bolton married Fat Walda because:

1) He needed an heir... Ramsay wasn't legit yet.

2) Her dowry was her weight in silver...

3) Roose likes getting it on. He practices first night rights and has some comment about wanting Walda to pop out kids like she pops in tarts... the little fatty...

4) Freys are a powerful ally (okay maybe this should be 3)

It's probably all these things. A confluence of factors that made a Frey marriage quite sensible for Roose.

As for getting back north, the Freys are not the key to the south, they are the key to crossing the Green Fork of the Trident. Bolton didn't need the Twins to go back north, he was already on the east side, i.e. the King's Road side of the Green Fork. He was always on that side of the river ever since Robb split his horse and foot before Whispering Wood.

Robb in theory didn't need to cross at the Twins either. If Bolton was loyal, in theory Robb could have crossed the Red Fork east into the riverlands and the headed to the Ruby Ford by way of Harrenhal and take the King's Road north. Robb, in theory, held both crossings, but in reality both Lords holding them in his name turned cloak.

Got me there! Clearly getting home was not an important consideration for Roose.

[Summer is Ending]

Robb Stark:

<...>

Following the ailing Lord Hoster Tully's death, Lothar Frey arrives from the Twins to negotiate a settlement with Robb. Lord Walder insists that Edmure, the new Lord of Riverrun, wed one of his daughters and that Robb offer an apology for breaking his word. Lady Catelyn counsels Robb to accept the terms. So, leaving Jeyne behind with her mother, Robb marches to the Twins for Edmure's wedding. Along the way, he concludes that he must make sure Winterfell has an heir should anything happen to him, and over Catelyn's objections legitimizes Jon Snow and names him his heir. He signs the decree before witnesses, then sends Galbart Glover and Maege Mormont to carry the word north. At the same time, Robb learns of Balon Greyjoy's death and discusses his plans for using the crannogmen to attack Moat Cailin from the swamp side.

Does anyone else find it odd (and off) that it says specifically that Robb sent Glover and Mormont to carry the word north about Jon now being legitimate and heir? I mean, that's not what's in the book. Not sure what to make of this.

It would be nice to have that expanded on to be sure on whether it's just poor wording or not. The Neck is north of where Robb was. Does it mean they found Reed and continued on even farther north or does it mean they simply went north until they found Reed.

[bent branch]

Robb Stark:

<...>

Following the ailing Lord Hoster Tully's death, Lothar Frey arrives from the Twins to negotiate a settlement with Robb. Lord Walder insists that Edmure, the new Lord of Riverrun, wed one of his daughters and that Robb offer an apology for breaking his word. Lady Catelyn counsels Robb to accept the terms. So, leaving Jeyne behind with her mother, Robb marches to the Twins for Edmure's wedding. Along the way, he concludes that he must make sure Winterfell has an heir should anything happen to him, and over Catelyn's objections legitimizes Jon Snow and names him his heir. He signs the decree before witnesses, then sends Galbart Glover and Maege Mormont to carry the word north. At the same time, Robb learns of Balon Greyjoy's death and discusses his plans for using the crannogmen to attack Moat Cailin from the swamp side.

Does anyone else find it odd (and off) that it says specifically that Robb sent Glover and Mormont to carry the word north about Jon now being legitimate and heir? I mean, that's not what's in the book. Not sure what to make of this.

I find it off. Robb's main purpose in sending Maege and Galbart north was to prepare for the taking of Moat Cailin. Robb specifically states that the documents they were being sent with were false, just in case they were stopped. Robb concludes the portion of the meeting where they were discussing the strategy for getting through Moat Cailin. He then tells Catelyn she will be expected to remain at Seaguard after the wedding until further notice. THEN he brings up the will. We never actually hear what his plans for the will were because the chapter ends there.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I find it off. Robb's main purpose in sending Maege and Galbart north was to prepare for the taking of Moat Cailin. Robb specifically states that the documents they were being sent with were false, just in case they were stopped. Robb concludes the portion of the meeting where they were discussing the strategy for getting through Moat Cailin. He then tells Catelyn she will be expected to remain at Seaguard after the wedding until further notice. THEN he brings up the will. We never actually hear what his plans for the will were because the chapter ends there.

I think it's possible that, even though the documents they had may have been fake, Mormont and Glover were expected to verbally convey Robb's will once they had made contact with pro-North forces in the Neck.

[bent branch]

I think it's possible that, even though the documents they had may have been fake, Mormont and Glover were expected to verbally convey Robb's will once they had made contact with pro-North forces in the Neck.

I agree with you, Robb may have intended that Maege and Galbart do that. In fact, I personally take the letter Lyanna Mormont sent to Stannis as proof that Maege, at least, has reached the north and started spreading the word. However, I can also see that Robb's original intention may have been to keep that knowledge secret. The reason for this would be that Jon was very vulnerable. All the Lannisters would have to have done was send an assassin to the Wall as a prisoner and Jon would have never seen it coming (ironic, I know). Indeed, Cersei thought of such an idea. So, I don't think it is a given what exactly the final outcome of that meeting was. Although I have always thought that Jon was legitimized and named heir.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I agree with you, Robb may have intended that Maege and Galbart do that. In fact, I personally take the letter Lyanna Mormont sent to Stannis as proof that Maege, at least, has reached the north and started spreading the word. However, I can also see that Robb's original intention may have been to keep that knowledge secret. The reason for this would be that Jon was very vulnerable. All the Lannisters would have to have done was send an assassin to the Wall as a prisoner and Jon would have never seen it coming (ironic, I know). Indeed, Cersei thought of such an idea. So, I don't think it is a given what exactly the final outcome of that meeting was. Although I have always thought that Jon was legitimized and named heir.

Very much agree — and I remember people wondering about the letter, wondering to whom Lyanna was referring, seeing as Robb was dead, Rickon and Bran and Arya were thought dead, and Sansa was probably disinherited. But now that we know that Robb did legitimize Jon and that Maege did go north with the message, the letter makes a lot of sense.

However ... (and this is hypothetical)

... If Maege did get the word out, which I agree it seems like she must have, why did no one actually get in touch with Jon? They could get a letter to Stannis at the Wall; why did no one send Jon a letter or make an attempt to get in touch with him about the news?

Here's my theory: I have said, for a while, that the Northmen are using Stannis as a means to an end (and yes this includes Manderly, although I'm still unsure whether he knows about Jon; more on that in a sec) and have no real intention of bending the knee or recognizing his authority when all is said and done. BUT ... they need someone to flush the Boltons out.

What if they're biding their time to reveal the truth about Robb's will until after Stannis' forces defeat Bolton's, or Bolton's defeat Stannis'? Whoever wins, his forces will be depleted enough from beating up on the other that pro-Stark forces (Mormont, Umber, Manderly, Glover, etc.) will be able to sweep aside the "victor" relatively easily. Or to put it in terms that have been discussed before, Stannis is the Dothraki, Robert is Bolton and Jon is Aegon. :P

If Jon's legitimization and role in the will is revealed too early, the northmen risk that Stannis and/or Bolton will get wind of it and take Jon out. But if they keep it under wraps, they can push Stannis and Bolton's forces into bleeding each other, with Jon and his secret untouched until the time is right and the northerners have the advantage.

As for Manderly, I have also suggested before that something reeks about his offer to Davos — that there's a sleight of wording, that there's something else going on here. There's the question of why the northerners would want Jon if Rickon is alive, and vice versa. Manderly refers to Rickon as his liege lord — and really, he is in a way. If Jon is Robb's heir to be King in the North, Rickon would move into Winterfell as the Lord Stark. As I've suggested before about Robb's will, a lot of it depends on how it's worded. If he thinks that Bran and Rickon are definitely dead, it's likely that he leaves them out entirely and just focuses on Jon, because why include people who you "know" to be dead? This might suit the northerners fine, given that Jon is an adult and Rickon is a small child. However, Rickon is still a legitimate male Stark, still technically Jon's heir now (assuming Bran's out of the picture), and still able to trump the fake Arya. So they can still use him — and they can send Davos after him on the premise that if Davos retrieves him, they'll support Stannis. However, if Stannis loses, they're not bound to that agreement, and if he wins, as I suggested earlier, the northerners can shunt him aside — it's their season, and their country. And if Davos for whatever reason fails, they still have Jon.

And to keep going with Manderly, the insanely analytical Tze once made a point of dissecting the songs that Manderly called for at Ramsay and Jeyne's wedding. All of them have to do with the Night's Watch. Not only that, but all of them send a pointed message in their own way, with context. Manderly has killed and served the three missing Freys = The Rat Cook. Jeyne is a girl disguised as someone she isn't = Brave Danny Flint. Then there's The Night That Ended, in which the Night's Watch rides out and saves the day. Manderly is also pretty jovial about all of this. What if his song selection is his subtle way of teasing/goading the Boltons, knowing what's going on behind the scenes? It almost smacks of someone coming up and saying, "I've got a secret but I'm not going to tell you." Taken together as a whole, the song collection basically says, "I'm onto what you're trying to pull (Danny Flint), but I've drawn blood already under your nose (The Rat Cook), and ultimately my side's going to win (The Night That Ended)."

So to sum it all up — the pro-Stark northern families know about Robb's will and are moving into position, with the aim of forcing Stannis and the Boltons against each other and dispatching with the loser before "going public" with the will and reinstalling a Stark king.

[Ser Leftwich]

This is a wildly optimistic question, but is there any information on Tyrek Lannister?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

This is a wildly optimistic question, but is there any information on Tyrek Lannister?

All it says is that he's missing and no one knows where he is. The way it's worded, homeskillet ain't dead.

[Ser Leftwich]

All it says is that he's missing and no one knows where he is. The way it's worded, homeskillet ain't dead.

That is considerable more than I expected.

BTW, many thanks for all your efforts and the others.

[Summer is Ending]

The North remembers.

I agree it's likely Robb didn't write Bran and Rickon into his will though there's always the possibility of course. We all know Jon though, I would say there's more than a good chance he would acknowledge Rickon himself and perhaps serve as regent.

Nicely done with the songs. I think that's the best interpretation of them I've seen so far. Much better than what I thought of originally.

[Newstar]

I was kind of spamming the thread earlier, so this is a summary of everything I've found to date:

Apparent Confirmed Deaths

1. Quentyn dies of his injuries.

2. Dareon is indeed killed by Arya, who "sees him as an oathbreaker." (This seems to have been confirmed in ADWD, but I still see the "Arya lied about it" theory rearing its ugly head from time to time.)

No News On Their Fates (or hints, for that matter):

1. Tyrek Lannister

2. Gerion Lannister ("presumed" lost at sea)

3. Beth Cassel

Theories Apparently Debunked (grain of salt on these, though):

1. Lemore is not Ashara Dayne (Lemore is described as a "handsome, brown-haired septa in her middle years," Ashara Dayne is described as "leaping to her death")

2. Loras Tyrell was indeed injured: his bio describes him as "gravely wounded" and "near death"

Theories Confirmed (albeit some "No Duh"):

1. Olenna poisoned Joffrey, not Margaery.

2. Joffrey was indeed behind the catspaw's attempt on Bran's life, for the reasons Tyrion speculated in ASOS.

3. Littlefinger was having an affair with Lysa by the time of Jon Arryn's death.

4. Tywin/Joanna was a love match. (Aw!)

5. As Varys intimated, the advice of an "unknown counselor" prompted Joffrey's decision to order Ned's execution.

Interesting Paraphrases/Summaries of Important Quotes/Events:

1. "Tyrion is Tywin's son, not you" becomes "Tyrion is the child who most resembles [Tywin]."

2. "In later years, Tywin's troubled relationship with Tyrion leads him to tell him that he wished he could prove Tyrion was not his son, suggesting that he is uncertain of Tyrion's paternity." [emphasis mine]

3. Maggy the Frog's prophecy "Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds" becomes "Cersei will outlive her children."

4. Maggy the Frog's prophecy when paraphrased does not reference the younger, more beautiful queen who will replace Cersei.

5. Unlike other prophecies, Mirri Maz Duur's "prophecy" as to when Khal Drogo will return is reproduced twice in its entirety: once in MMD's bio, and once in Dany's.

6. The summary of Dany's HotU vision references "many strange visions" but only specifically references Rhaegar declaring to Elia that Aegon is the song of ice and fire.

[I am a bastard's bastard]

there is speculation on who the ion is in the east, i havnt read the whole topic but does anyone else think its tyrek?

[I am a bastard's bastard]

sorry Gerion not Tyrek

[bent branch]

Very much agree — and I remember people wondering about the letter, wondering to whom Lyanna was referring, seeing as Robb was dead, Rickon and Bran and Arya were thought dead, and Sansa was probably disinherited. But now that we know that Robb did legitimize Jon and that Maege did go north with the message, the letter makes a lot of sense.

However ... (and this is hypothetical)

... If Maege did get the word out, which I agree it seems like she must have, why did no one actually get in touch with Jon? They could get a letter to Stannis at the Wall; why did no one send Jon a letter or make an attempt to get in touch with him about the news?

Here's my theory: I have said, for a while, that the Northmen are using Stannis as a means to an end (and yes this includes Manderly, although I'm still unsure whether he knows about Jon; more on that in a sec) and have no real intention of bending the knee or recognizing his authority when all is said and done. BUT ... they need someone to flush the Boltons out.

What if they're biding their time to reveal the truth about Robb's will until after Stannis' forces defeat Bolton's, or Bolton's defeat Stannis'? Whoever wins, his forces will be depleted enough from beating up on the other that pro-Stark forces (Mormont, Umber, Manderly, Glover, etc.) will be able to sweep aside the "victor" relatively easily. Or to put it in terms that have been discussed before, Stannis is the Dothraki, Robert is Bolton and Jon is Aegon. :P

If Jon's legitimization and role in the will is revealed too early, the northmen risk that Stannis and/or Bolton will get wind of it and take Jon out. But if they keep it under wraps, they can push Stannis and Bolton's forces into bleeding each other, with Jon and his secret untouched until the time is right and the northerners have the advantage.

As for Manderly, I have also suggested before that something reeks about his offer to Davos — that there's a sleight of wording, that there's something else going on here. There's the question of why the northerners would want Jon if Rickon is alive, and vice versa. Manderly refers to Rickon as his liege lord — and really, he is in a way. If Jon is Robb's heir to be King in the North, Rickon would move into Winterfell as the Lord Stark. As I've suggested before about Robb's will, a lot of it depends on how it's worded. If he thinks that Bran and Rickon are definitely dead, it's likely that he leaves them out entirely and just focuses on Jon, because why include people who you "know" to be dead? This might suit the northerners fine, given that Jon is an adult and Rickon is a small child. However, Rickon is still a legitimate male Stark, still technically Jon's heir now (assuming Bran's out of the picture), and still able to trump the fake Arya. So they can still use him — and they can send Davos after him on the premise that if Davos retrieves him, they'll support Stannis. However, if Stannis loses, they're not bound to that agreement, and if he wins, as I suggested earlier, the northerners can shunt him aside — it's their season, and their country. And if Davos for whatever reason fails, they still have Jon.

And to keep going with Manderly, the insanely analytical Tze once made a point of dissecting the songs that Manderly called for at Ramsay and Jeyne's wedding. All of them have to do with the Night's Watch. Not only that, but all of them send a pointed message in their own way, with context. Manderly has killed and served the three missing Freys = The Rat Cook. Jeyne is a girl disguised as someone she isn't = Brave Danny Flint. Then there's The Night That Ended, in which the Night's Watch rides out and saves the day. Manderly is also pretty jovial about all of this. What if his song selection is his subtle way of teasing/goading the Boltons, knowing what's going on behind the scenes? It almost smacks of someone coming up and saying, "I've got a secret but I'm not going to tell you." Taken together as a whole, the song collection basically says, "I'm onto what you're trying to pull (Danny Flint), but I've drawn blood already under your nose (The Rat Cook), and ultimately my side's going to win (The Night That Ended)."

So to sum it all up — the pro-Stark northern families know about Robb's will and are moving into position, with the aim of forcing Stannis and the Boltons against each other and dispatching with the loser before "going public" with the will and reinstalling a Stark king.

Ah, yes, the Great Northern Conspiration (I love that word). I have a slightly different take. In order to be brief (always a problem for me) I'll just do bullet points.

-I agree the northerners are using Stannis to kick out the Boltons and Freys. I think they need Stannis to do it because of their family members who are held hostage. For this same reason I don't think they'll turn on Stannis until that issue is resolved.

-I think there were three factions of conspirators: the Mountain Clans who knew about Bran, the Barrowton faction who knew about Jon and the Manderly/Umber faction who knew about Rickon. I don't think they were communicating with each other because of the risk that written communications presented and riders being sent between the groups would have been noted. However, as the three groups began coming together they shared information and they all know everything now. How it will ultimately play out I don't know.

-The part about the music is great. I had placed "The Rat King" and the Frey pies. I laughed reading that scene, I was sure Roose would figure it out. However, the implications of the other two totally sailed by me.

[Jon Reborn]

I hope I'm not alone here in hoping this "Horse on Planet Sex Hero" does not come to pass.

You are not alone.

Although, I will admit to a slight desire to see this phrase a few more times before it dies... ;)

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

Melisandre: I'm kinda getting confused here. Does she actually control what she sees? Is her request what makes visions appear? Is it like ordering off a menu, where sometimes it doesn't come out how you wanted? Now that I think a bit about her chapter and read some of the app stuff, I am really doubting how much control she has over the whole process. It's more looking like visions just happen and she puts it down to her own powers.

Jon asks very specifically for Melisandre to divine for him where wildings will attack and she responds:

"R'hllor sends us what visions he will, but i shall seek for this man Tormund in the flames."

For all she knows she could be off chasing down a future cook for Azor Ahai, although this would never occur to her. She's far too arrogant, which probably led her to assume Stannis was Azor Ahai instead of a smaller part of the whole picture.

[Lyanna Stark]

Theories Confirmed (albeit some "No Duh"):

1. Olenna poisoned Joffrey, not Margaery.

Did anyone ever doubt that? The main question is how many Tyrells were in on it. Margaery, probably, but we also have Garlan acting rather suspiciously.

5. As Varys intimated, the advice of an "unknown counselor" prompted Joffrey's decision to order Ned's execution.

Hello Petyr Baelish! Very few other "unknown counselors" were available to Joffrey at the time, and we see from Varys' reaction in Arya's chapter that he's very likely not in on it.

[kissdbyfire]

I find it off. Robb's main purpose in sending Maege and Galbart north was to prepare for the taking of Moat Cailin. Robb specifically states that the documents they were being sent with were false, just in case they were stopped. Robb concludes the portion of the meeting where they were discussing the strategy for getting through Moat Cailin. He then tells Catelyn she will be expected to remain at Seaguard after the wedding until further notice. THEN he brings up the will. We never actually hear what his plans for the will were because the chapter ends there.

Precisely what I meant. Odd and off.