Stuff That's Confirmed/Hinted at in aWoIaF App, v.2

[History of Westeros]

4) Harrenhal and the Twins learn of the marriage. The Freys are angered, Roose Bolton sees opportunity. He sends off Tallhart and Glover.

4b?) Ravens start zipping off between the Twins and/or Harrenhal and King's Landing, negotiating over betraying Robb. "More wars are won with quills than swords", or whatever the line is.

Useful detail to add: some of the important Freys were with Bolton at Harrenhal when news of Robb's marriage to Jeyne arrived. Plotting between Roose and Jared (forget who else was there) probably started pretty quickly.

[Summer is Ending]

In one of Arya's COK chapter, the one where Roose is being leeched surrounded by a horde of Freys who overtly declares for negociation with the Lannisters, he receives a letter from Fat Walda who was already then his wife. So 5) must have happened before or at the same time as 1)

He orders the massacre at the Darry Keep and Glover and Tallhart to Duskendale both in the king's name before the Freys receive word of Robb's marriage as well.

[Rohed]

well that's the most succinct way to put it. Right now, Tyrion appears like he'll contribute to the Daenerys plotline somehow. But has yet to link up with her the way he and we expected them to meet. Probably no hidden secondary lions in the east.

What about his uncle? Where is his location, and could he have the truth? I have a wild theory involving the greymen.. Perhaps he is the new leader of em, with knoledge of this truth..the others? "her kingdom"?, her insaine family..

[LordBloodraven]

He orders the massacre at the Darry Keep and Glover and Tallhart to Duskendale both in the king's name before the Freys receive word of Robb's marriage as well.

Not sure about Duskendale?Do you have a quote (I believe you're good at that ;)). IIRC, Glover and Tallhart were sent to Duskendale after he learnt of Winterfell's burning, Torrhen's Square and Deepwood's Motte losses and Robb's marriage

[History of Westeros]

No need... its much appreciated by the rest of us!

Ran is point 2 now cannon or just your take based on text? [Edit just saw DaveSumm's post and he and I basically say the same thing here] Because I agree 100% with all else... but I quibble with the Spicer's actions and motivations.

Sybil and Rolph wanted Robb to fall for Jeyne so they could worm their way into Tywin's good graces? It is definite that R+J did not just happen to fall for each other and Sybil found a way to make good use of the circumstances?

I guess its not out of the question that Sybil knows how prickly Freys are and that a Robb wedding would prompt them to leave his cause. But its a big gamble to have her daughter marry the enemy and just hope that Tywin likes her plan. She is risking a lot here. If Robb ever found out, Sybil and Rolph are dead. If Robb wins the war, I guess she ends up okay if the secret dies w/ Tywin. But if Tywin wins, she takes the chance that he uses the public image that the westerling's betrayed Tywin so that he could give their lands to another political ally. All her communications w/ him were in secret.

So I guess I'm not saying its impossible that Sybil was the mastermind behind R+J. But the far more likely situation seems to be that SS reacted to changing situations, professed loyalty to Tywin and he decided to use the situation to his benefit.

All that said, she could have told Tywin it was Ran's way but in reality it could have been as proposed by my and DaveSumm. Both could be true in a manner of speaking....

The fact that Jeyne was tending to Robb's wound at all implies that Sybelle/Rolph had a plan. Why would a daughter of the defeated house tend to the guy who just took their castle by force? It's even mentioned that Grey Wind killed a knight that Jeyne had known since she was a child. The fact that the two of them were spending any time together at all is weird *unless* there's another force at work. In this case, that force appears to be Spicer ambition.

The other possibility is that Robb wanted her to tend to him, as anything he asks for would be given. But why would he do that?

I think Ran's correction need not be challenged. To me there's no question it fits that Jeyne was "thrown" at Robb.

[Grip]

Great compilation, with lots of interesting information! Keep up the good work!

[History of Westeros]

I'll attempt to explain why Roose married Fat Walda well in advance of any certainty that he (and Lord Walder) would betray Robb.

Bolton most likely realized that the Freys were going to be an uncertain ally, yet a *vastly important one*. They have lots of money and soldiers, and perhaps more importantly, they control access back to the North. It's not unlikely that Roose's plans included making sure, no matter what, that he was going to be friendly with House Frey. The biggest reason for this may be that he realizes that the Twins are his only way home (apart from staying loyal to Robb and Robb actually winning the war outright, I suppose). Much talk is made of how Robb cannot get his army North without permission from the Twins, but the same is true for Bolton and his men, most of whom are with him (my evidence for using the word "most" is based on how small Ramsay's force is when attacking Rodrik Cassel's).

Bolton is well aware that the Freys could change sides at any minute. The only way to be pretty damn sure he can count House Frey as an ally is to marry one of them.

So if/when talk of betraying Robb comes up before Robb's marriage to Jeyne, of course he's going to listen to the possibility.

[Summer is Ending]

Not sure about Duskendale?Do you have a quote (I believe you're good at that ;)). IIRC, Glover and Tallhart were sent to Duskendale after he learnt of Winterfell's burning, Torrhen's Square and Deepwood's Motte losses and Robb's marriage

Don't want to quote the whole thing because it spans the whole chapter, but it is all in one chapter so there's no question about the timeline.

Roose has his war council with the Freys, they talk about Winterfell being taken, Robb must bend the knee. Roose says it's always good to have such brave brothers.

Arya removes the leeches, Qyburn reads Fat Walda's letter to him and this is where he sends his letter to Tallhart.

“I will send a letter of my own,” he told the onetime maester.

“To the Lady Walda?”

“To Ser Helman Tallhart.” A rider from Ser Helman had come two days past. Tallhart men had taken the castle of the Darrys, accepting the surrender of its Lannister garrison after a brief siege.

“Tell him to put the captives to the sword and the castle to the torch, by command of the king. Then he is to join forces with Robett Glover and strike east toward Duskendale. Those are rich lands, and hardly touched by the fighting. It is time they had a taste. Glover has lost a castle, and Tallhart a son. Let them take their vengeance on Duskendale.”

Roose goes hunting wolves. Arya cleans up his room for a few hours. Goes to play in the godswood and it's as she is heading to the bath house that she sees a raven coming in.

As Arya crossed the yard to the bathhouse, she spied a raven circling down toward the rookery, and wondered where it had come from and what message it carried.

Roose returns in the evening with his dead wolves, Arya takes his dinner order to the kitchen, serves him and asks if he will take her with him when he leaves. He wonders on whether he needs to take her tongue. Arya leaves to return to the godswood and then she hears the Freys arguing.

On her way to the godswood, she passed the Wailing Tower where once she had lived in fear of Weese. The Freys had taken it for their own since Harrenhal’s fall. She could hear angry voices coming from a window, many men talking and arguing all at once. Elmar was sitting on the steps outside, alone.

“What’s wrong?” Arya asked him when she saw the tears shining on his cheeks.

“My princess,” he sobbed. “We’ve been dishonored, Aenys says. There was a bird from the Twins. My lord father says I’ll need to marry someone else, or be a septon.”

[LordBloodraven]

Don't want to quote the whole thing because it spans the whole chapter, but it is all in one chapter so there's no question about the timeline.

Roose has his war council with the Freys, they talk about Winterfell being taken, Robb must bend the knee. Roose says it's always good to have such brave brothers.

Arya removes the leeches, Qyburn reads Fat Walda's letter to him and this is where he sends his letter to Tallhart.

“I will send a letter of my own,” he told the onetime maester.

“To the Lady Walda?”

“To Ser Helman Tallhart.” A rider from Ser Helman had come two days past. Tallhart men had taken the castle of the Darrys, accepting the surrender of its Lannister garrison after a brief siege.

“Tell him to put the captives to the sword and the castle to the torch, by command of the king. Then he is to join forces with Robett Glover and strike east toward Duskendale. Those are rich lands, and hardly touched by the fighting. It is time they had a taste. Glover has lost a castle, and Tallhart a son. Let them take their vengeance on Duskendale.”

Roose goes hunting wolves. Arya cleans up his room for a few hours. Goes to play in the godswood and it's as she is heading to the bath house that she sees a raven coming in.

As Arya crossed the yard to the bathhouse, she spied a raven circling down toward the rookery, and wondered where it had come from and what message it carried.

Roose returns in the evening with his dead wolves, Arya takes his dinner order to the kitchen, serves him and asks if he will take her with him when he leaves. He wonders on whether he needs to take her tongue. Arya leaves to return to the godswood and then she hears the Freys arguing.

On her way to the godswood, she passed the Wailing Tower where once she had lived in fear of Weese. The Freys had taken it for their own since Harrenhal’s fall. She could hear angry voices coming from a window, many men talking and arguing all at once. Elmar was sitting on the steps outside, alone.

“What’s wrong?” Arya asked him when she saw the tears shining on his cheeks.

“My princess,” he sobbed. “We’ve been dishonored, Aenys says. There was a bird from the Twins. My lord father says I’ll need to marry someone else, or be a septon.”

So Roose was being Roose there. Perhaps he was honest when he said to Theon that he owed him his wardenship of the North. I think it's in that chapter that Arya heard them talk about Bran and Rickon's death. So Roose may have thrown his lot at that moment, the broken betrothal was a bonus for him

[Ran]

Ah, yes, forgot that he had a letter from Walda establishing that they're married as well. That's my fault, not from GRRM.

I wish I had asked George just when this marriage happened, then, as I realize it's now quite unknown beyond Edmure's first reference to it mid-ACoK. Roose says it was when he was at the Twins, but ... was this during AGoT? You'd think it'd be mentioned earlier than late in ACoK. I suppose likelier is that it was sometime early or mid-ACoK, when Roose's forces held the ruby ford.

Will see if Anne can get anything out of him before the next app update, so we can get the story straight. But I guess it's clear that Roose was honest when the marriage was all about money and just a general sort of alliance rather than being a move motivated by Robb's realm crumbling. That said, Roose _is_ conspiring with the Freys and Tywin against Robb from early in ASoS.

[Summer is Ending]

So Roose was being Roose there. Perhaps he was honest when he said to Theon that he owed him his wardenship of the North. I think it's in that chapter that Arya heard them talk about Bran and Rickon's death. So Roose may have thrown his lot at that moment, the broken betrothal was a bonus for him

Yes, that was part of the council.

“He has lost the north,” insisted Hosteen Frey. “He has lost Winterfell! His brothers are dead . . .”

There's one other interesting passage in there that shows Roose's nature of setting things on fire to see which way the wind blows.

“Terrible times breed terrible things, my lord.”

Bolton showed his teeth in something that might have been a smile. “Are these times so terrible, Maester?”

“Summer is gone and there are four kings in the realm.”

“One king may be terrible, but four?” He shrugged.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Sorry, I'm just checking in. I can't be on here at work so there's about an 8-hour window when I can't really respond to anything. Look like Butters has answered most questions today so far.

[DaveSumm]

In Tywin's entry:

"Also, all the while Tywin is in secret communication with Lords Frey and Bolton, plotting their betrayal of the Starks, and also with Lady Spicer, who uses her daughter to force Robb into breaking his agreements with the Freys. The breaking of guest right by Lord Frey at the Red Wedding is held by some to be the greatest sin of the lot, but Tywin refuses to accept any blame for it."

And again in Sybell's entry:

"After Robb seizes the Crag, she plots with her brother to trick Robb Stark into marrying her daughter, Jeyne, thus breaking his alliance with the Freys. Sybell then keeps her daughter supplied with potions and possets that will keep her from conceiving, all the while claiming the opposite. Her brother is given Castamere as a reward, while she is promised a great marriage for her son."

Actually, nothing here contradicts the idea that Tywin didn't plan the whole thing: he communicates with Lady Spicer, yes, but it doesn't specify that he instructed her to get them to fall in love, just that she did and that they were communicating. I'm still gonna assume the idea was Lady Spicer's and the subsequent potions and possets were Tywin's.

@Ran I guess the marriage can only have been in aGoT, I can't think of any other time he went to the Twins. Of the top of my head his journey starts at the North, goes to the Twins with Robb, splits and goes east of the river and encounters Tywin, regroups and stays at the ford, turns the Brave Companions, takes Harrenhal, returns to the Twins for the wedding (the red one, not his own). Worth remembering that back in Book 1, Roose wasn't mentioned anymore than his other banner men so I don't think it's odd it wasn't mentioned.

ETA: Just occured to me; was there any other conditions to Robb's crossing? Could his wedding be a condition along with Robb's own marriage contract? But then weren't they in a massive hurry to catch Tywin off guard? Would they have had time for a wedding? Gonna search for some info on this...

[Lord Martin]

Don't want to quote the whole thing because it spans the whole chapter, but it is all in one chapter so there's no question about the timeline.

Roose has his war council with the Freys, they talk about Winterfell being taken, Robb must bend the knee. Roose says it's always good to have such brave brothers.

Arya removes the leeches, Qyburn reads Fat Walda's letter to him and this is where he sends his letter to Tallhart.

“I will send a letter of my own,” he told the onetime maester.

“To the Lady Walda?”

“To Ser Helman Tallhart.” A rider from Ser Helman had come two days past. Tallhart men had taken the castle of the Darrys, accepting the surrender of its Lannister garrison after a brief siege.

“Tell him to put the captives to the sword and the castle to the torch, by command of the king. Then he is to join forces with Robett Glover and strike east toward Duskendale. Those are rich lands, and hardly touched by the fighting. It is time they had a taste. Glover has lost a castle, and Tallhart a son. Let them take their vengeance on Duskendale.”

Roose goes hunting wolves. Arya cleans up his room for a few hours. Goes to play in the godswood and it's as she is heading to the bath house that she sees a raven coming in.

As Arya crossed the yard to the bathhouse, she spied a raven circling down toward the rookery, and wondered where it had come from and what message it carried.

Roose returns in the evening with his dead wolves, Arya takes his dinner order to the kitchen, serves him and asks if he will take her with him when he leaves. He wonders on whether he needs to take her tongue. Arya leaves to return to the godswood and then she hears the Freys arguing.

On her way to the godswood, she passed the Wailing Tower where once she had lived in fear of Weese. The Freys had taken it for their own since Harrenhal’s fall. She could hear angry voices coming from a window, many men talking and arguing all at once. Elmar was sitting on the steps outside, alone.

“What’s wrong?” Arya asked him when she saw the tears shining on his cheeks.

“My princess,” he sobbed. “We’ve been dishonored, Aenys says. There was a bird from the Twins. My lord father says I’ll need to marry someone else, or be a septon.”

I completely forgot that while these events are in the same chapter, Roose gives the Duskendale orders after Blackwater but before learning of the Westerling wedding...

This is also when he gives this line:

"Lord Tywin is many leagues from here," Bolton said calmly. "He has many matters yet to settle at King's Landing. He will not march on Harrenhal for some time."

Ser Aenys shook his head stubbornly. "You do not know the Lannisters as we do, my lord. King Stannis thought that Lord Tywin was a thousand leagues away as well, and it undid him."

The pale man in the bed smiled faintly as the leeches nursed of his blood. "I am not a man to be undone, ser."

One of my favorites. And IMO could suggest that he is in contact w/ Tywin at this point.

Thanks for clarifying/correcting...

[Grail King]

Targs are not immune from disease. They've died from pox and the plague and suffered from mental illness and cradle sickness and whatever else. Dany sure as shit isn't healthy in her last chapter, either.

I'm still iffy on the Loras thing — I think this is a "based on current information" thing.

It's only in the Mac App store, as far as I know. It's not available for Android.

It's only in the Mac App store, as far as I know. It's not available for Android.

Barnes and Nobles has it in their app store for android???

wonder if it would work in my rooted Nook Color.

[History of Westeros]

Ah, yes, forgot that he had a letter from Walda establishing that they're married as well. That's my fault, not from GRRM.

I wish I had asked George just when this marriage happened, then, as I realize it's now quite unknown. Roose says it was when he was at the Twins, but ... was this during AGoT? You'd think it'd be mentioned earlier than late in ACoK. I suppose likelier is that it was sometime early or mid-ACoK, when Roose's forces held the ruby ford.

Will see if Anne can get anything out of him before the next app update, so we can get the story straight. But I guess it's clear that Roose was honest when the marriage was all about money and just a general sort of alliance rather than being a move motivated by Robb's realm crumbling. That said, Roose _is_ conspiring with the Freys and Tywin against Robb from early in ASoS.

Check my earlier post. It seems very likely Roose wanted to wind up on whatever side the Freys wound up on, and he knew that a change of sides for them would not be unlikely. If Frey and Bolton are on opposing sides, Bolton is stuck in the south. He's been aware of that the moment he set eyes on the Twins and said "My lords, this cannot be assaulted," if not sooner.

[SerStinger]

I think dragon poo would be valuable.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

It's only in the Mac App store, as far as I know. It's not available for Android.

Barnes and Nobles has it in their app store for android???

wonder if it would work in my rooted Nook Color.

I don't do Android, so if they have it listed I guess they do. I was just under the impression that it's not on Android at this time.

[DaveSumm]

Hmm......really doesn't sound like a marriage happens here, in aGoT:

"Do you consent?"

"Can I refuse?"

"Not if you wish to cross."

"I consent," Robb said solemnly. He had never seemed more manly to her than he did in that moment. Boys might play with swords, but it took a lord to make a marriage pact, knowing what it meant.

They crossed at evenfall as a horned moon floated upon the river. (........some description of the crossing........)......

The larger part of the northern host, pikes and archers and great masses of men-at-arms on foot, remained upon the east bank under the command of Roose Bolton. Robb had commanded him to continue the march south, to confront the huge Lannister army coming north under Lord Tywin.

For good or ill, her son had thrown the dice.

[Summer is Ending]

Ah, yes, forgot that he had a letter from Walda establishing that they're married as well. That's my fault, not from GRRM.

I wish I had asked George just when this marriage happened, then, as I realize it's now quite unknown beyond Edmure's first reference to it mid-ACoK. Roose says it was when he was at the Twins, but ... was this during AGoT? You'd think it'd be mentioned earlier than late in ACoK. I suppose likelier is that it was sometime early or mid-ACoK, when Roose's forces held the ruby ford.

Will see if Anne can get anything out of him before the next app update, so we can get the story straight. But I guess it's clear that Roose was honest when the marriage was all about money and just a general sort of alliance rather than being a move motivated by Robb's realm crumbling. That said, Roose _is_ conspiring with the Freys and Tywin against Robb from early in ASoS.

The earliest mention is Edmure and Cat arguing about his battle plan. Fairly sure that's the first anyways.

Robb’s betrothed to one of Lord Walder’s daughters, and Roose Bolton wed another, I hear. And haven’t you taken two of his grandsons to be fostered at Winterfell?”

“A ward can easily become a hostage, if need be.” She had not known that Ser Stevron was dead, nor of Bolton’s marriage.

Blah, nevermind, somehow missed the whole paragraph talking about Edmure.